J* Fined For Imposing Cadet Pilot Training Costs

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Heard on radio 6PR this arvo, that J* has been fined $90K for 'unlawfully deducting part pay' of cadet pilots, for pilot training, in contravention of workplace laws...

GOOD!

Cheers :ok::ok:

[waren9]

i only hope 90k is more than they got out of the cadets affected

[Keith Myath]

From the ABC

Jetstar has been fined $90,000 for making six cadet pilots pay for their own training.

The Federal Court handed down the fine in Sydney after the airline admitted it breached the Fair Work Act when it deducted $17,500 from the wages of the cadets to cover the training.

The pilots, recruited between October 2010 and January 2011, were employed on individual contracts through a New Zealand-based Jetstar subsidiary while they underwent six months of training.

After their employment was transferred to Australian entity Jetstar Group, Jetstar tried to recover training costs from the pilots despite being advised it was unlawful under Australia's Air Pilots Award 2010, Justice Robert Buchanan found.

Jetstar deducted a total of $17,500 from all six pilots' wages, including one pilot who had refused to agree to it.

The money was returned two months later after a legal challenge by the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP).

Justice Buchanan said Jetstar had shown a lack of evidence of contrition or remorse over the events.

"The respondents used their vastly superior bargaining power to effectively brush aside any personal resistance by cadet pilots, not desisting until the AFAP stepped in," he said.

"The conduct of Jetstar Group and Jetstar Airways was calculated solely by reference to their assessment of their own commercial interests."

The Fair Work Ombudsman also has ongoing legal proceedings against Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd over its use of cabin crew employed by Singapore company Valuair Limited and Thai company Tour East (TET) Limited.

The airlines are contesting allegations from the Ombudsman the staff were subject to Australian workplace laws.

[bloated goat]

ONYA jetstar !!!

[Sarcs]

Ben's short take on this story (with update):ok::Jetstar fined for taking money from cadet pilots (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/02/06/jetstar-fined-for-taking-money-from-cadet-pilots/)*Updated

The Federal Court has fined Jetstar $90,000 for trying to force cadet pilots to pay for their own training and unlawfully deducting part of their wages to enforce it.

The decision is reported here by SBS.

It will reminder readers with long memories of the other Jetstar behaviours that were pulled apart by a Senate committee inquiry into pilot training and safety standards in relation to its attempt to pay cadet pilots NZ wages under NZ conditions for flying in Australia.

Not to mention paying allegedly fatigued Thai based flight attendants less than Australian pay and conditions on domestic services tagged onto Jetstar international flights through Darwin.

When or if Jetstar responds with a statement or indicates if it will appeal the decision this story will be amended accordingly.

*Jetstar’s response:

Today, the Federal Court imposed penalties on Jetstar under the Fair Work Act for admitted breaches relating to the initial rollout of its pilot cadet training program in 2010. The issue was confined to the first group of six cadets, and was rectified in October 2011.

Jetstar Australia and New Zealand CEO David Hall said that while the airline accepted responsibility for these breaches, overall the airline was very proud of the program, which is now in its fifth year.

“More than 100 cadets have participated in the program which has been successful in providing opportunities for Australians to begin their flying careers and allow them to work in other Jetstar branded airlines,” Mr Hall said.

“Jetstar has more than 3000 team members across Australia and we take our responsibilities as an employer of choice seriously.”

[V-Jet]

Sadly it will (no doubt) be QF that pays but:
1) That should be a per person fine and
2) I hope it is the start.

Anyone affected by this has my total support and I am appalled that a company I was so proud to get a uniform from has sunk to this.

Well done for anyone and all who had the guts to stand up and question.

:D:D

[busdriver007]

I think you will find it was AIPA that first raised this issue......:ok:either way the profession is the loser! Jetstar are thinking of other ways to screw their people, why does that not surprise me.....

[pull-up-terrain]

Imagine how much these cadet pilots would be earning on their junior first officer salary after paying the $17,500 training bill :ugh:

I don't think you could even live on that.

[DancingDog]

Errrrr deducting $17500 each for 6 cadets totals $105,000.
Cost them $90,000.
They still saved money. :suspect:

[MrBernoulli]

Wrong, Jetstar had to return the money and pay the fine.

The money was returned two months later after a legal challenge by the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP).

[DancingDog]

I stand correted.
Still, $90K is bugger all given the amount of revenue they get, not much of a deterrent.

[peterc005]

As JetStar is the subsidiary of an ASX listed company they will probably have a Legal Compliance Officer or similar. There will also be Audit and Safety Committees etc.

Getting pinged like this is not going to slip through and would have to go to the Board level. Board members at places like this are incredible ass-coverers so they won't like it.

I think you'll find this action has drawn a line in the sand about how far they can go with dodgy stuff like this and now they'll back off in future.

[waren9]

dont think so mate.

90k is chump change. and besides, that hr guy is long gone.

[KRUSTY 34]

HR. you gotta love these arse kissing, self promoting, pyramid climbing clowns.

Their sole purpose is to screw the very resource that their name derives from. In return they crave kudos from their political masters, and seek justification for what are otherwise useless qualifications.

It's a sad indictment of airline management that they can be so blinded by short term financial benefit, that they fail to grasp the long term results! A former employer of mine, against all union and independent legal advice, went with the HR managers inappropriate treatment of 2 long standing employees. The result, after said HR manager had moved on to the next demolition site, was a negative profit statement for the company!

I suppose with the huge losses the Qantas group are facing, what's another $90K.

[spelling_nazi]

Morally bankrupt bottom feeders

[bloated goat]

Sucked in jetstar!!!!!

[Ngineer]

The Federal Court has fined Jetstar $90,000 for trying to force cadet pilots to pay for their own training and unlawfully deducting part of their wages to enforce it.


What a way to kick off your career with a new company. I am sure these guys will be engaged workers.

[Wally Mk2]

What a disgrace & certainly not unexpected either as a lot of Co's now are trying anything they can to save/make a buck in this cut throat world we do business in.
Aviation is just one small part of the ugliness this country is showing.:-(
Would be interesting to know how this latest little shafting by 'JokeStar' will filter down thru the ranks as someone in HR or whatever Dept cunningly planned this will be wearing a size 10 boot imprint on their ass!
The word 'vindictive' will most likely feature in these poor cadets during their possibly short aviation career!


Wmk2

[Jack Ranga]

Yeah Peter, I'm sure it was an honest mistake, I'm also sure that the board will be horrified. There'll be a public apology in all the major newspapers. The board will trot off to the HR Nicholls Society and present a paper on the ethical treatment of staff despite the need for industrial reform.

[Black_Knight]

as a complete newbie when i read through the jetstar cadetship information it did nothing but ring alarm bells, googled news for there program and the first thing that came up was them screwing the cadets over in NZ $ for flying in australia, Subsequent articles showed them screwing over there more senior crews as well.

How can an organisation like this actual manage to recruit staff?

[peterc005]

I believe they get over 100 applications for each Cadet position.

Yes, using NZ contracts was a dirty, unethical trick.

Yes, they did charge Cadets when they shouldn't have.

Yes, you could do the training maybe $20,000 cheaper yourself.

Yes, spending time in GA is probably good experience.

But - about 90% of the Cadets who start the training finish the training end end up working for Jetstar as a pilot.

A lot of the other integrated have a completion rate of maybe 30% and no guarantee of a job.

If you were a young pilot coming thru and could get into the right hand seat in two years and start earning decent money, rather than bumming around in GA for maybe ten years, it makes sense.

I've met several people who've been thru the Jetstar Cadetship, and while they may have the odd gripe, in general they are pretty happy with the way things have turned out for them.

[Jack Ranga]

Says it all Pete, not to you obviously.

[Popgun]

How can an organisation like this actually manage to recruit staff?

Quite simply...supply and demand. Unlike most industries, there are only a few companies to choose from in this country.

The supply of pilot jet jobs in this country is VERY restricted.

The demand for these jobs is far, far greater.

So unfortunately its an employers market. The sad probability is that even if we descend to the barrel-scraping low of Pay-to-fly pilot recruits, there will likely be far more wannabes than available positions.

PG

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Is it only me who's noticed the subtle, yet sweet, irony in all this: the name of the judge who handed down the decision was...Buchanan.

What was the name of the CEO in charge of the Jetstar group at the time this went down...(I think he 'stood down' in 2012)?

[Iron Bar]

From his Honour Justice Buchanan's judgment (nice irony)

"25 From the facts agreed by the parties, I draw a number of conclusions. First, Jetstar Airways and its subsidiaries set out to minimise the cost to itself or any of them of the training which would necessarily be involved in the cadet pilot program which it decided to introduce. To that end, it nominated employment arrangements with Jetstar New Zealand which bore no real relationship to operational reality. Despite advice in clear terms about the potential liability under the Award if pilots from the cadet pilot program were employed by an Australian operating entity, Jetstar Group imposed upon cadet pilots a requirement of repaying the cost of training."

"I understand we offered Australian employment to the remaining cadets employed in NZ – I need to let you know that we may have cost ourselves the value of their in flight training (42K) per cadet as the modern award does not permit a prospective employer to charge for training – see clause 16.5."

Email from Mr Bell to Mr Abbott and Cpt Rindfleish.

31 May 2011


Naaaaaahhhh it's ok charge them anyway. DOH!

[busdriver007]

Credit where credit's due!



Federal Court penalises Jetstar __


I'm sure many of you have by now become aware of the Federal Court decision handed down yesterday relating to the initial employment by Jetstar of cadet pilots. Justice Buchanan of the Federal Court has penalised Jetstar Group and Jetstar Airways with fines totalling $90,000 AUD for breaching provisions of the Fair Work Act relating to the requirement for cadets to repay training costs. Click here to view the decision.

Some of you might note that the press coverage implies that AFAP was instrumental in the decision - that is not the case. AFAP did raise a legal challenge to Jetstar's activities, but discontinued it in a private agreement with Jetstar. AIPA also raised a legal challenge, fortunately without having to begin formal proceedings. In handing down his decision, Justice Buchanan mentioned the discontinued AFAP action simply in the context of Jetstar ignoring the message that their approach was illegal. Unfortunately, the press coverage did not extend to properly reporting that context. It is most unlikely that the press is even aware of the scope and effectiveness of AIPA's involvement in having this matter decided in the Federal Court.

This particular action was brought by the Fair Work Ombudsman (FWO) after the issue of the cadets’ conditions of employment gained significant exposure during the Senate Inquiry into Pilot Training and Airline Safety and later during Senate Estimates. AIPA formally briefed the FWO in May 2011 urging them to investigate Jetstar, having already written to the then Minister for Workplace Relations along similar lines. Subsequently, Senator Xenophon raised a private member's bill, the Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011, which specifically related to employment strategies that relied on the use of foreign flight and cabin crew. A second Senate Inquiry examined that Bill, as well as another of Senator Xenophon's private member's bills, the Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011.

Many of you will remember that AIPA was actively involved in both Senate Inquiries and we provided substantial support for the Parliamentary processes that exposed so much of the Qantas/Jetstar employment arrangements to public scrutiny. Without this public scrutiny and the dogged pursuit of the matter by Senator Xenophon, we think it very unlikely that the FWO would have acted at all. Our government and regulatory affairs strategies have attracted some critics, but I think members can be quite satisfied that the work we put into this issue has had a very positive and tangible outcome. We are hopeful that the parallel FWO action related to foreign cabin crew will similarly expose the overt cynicism of Jetstar towards the employment conditions of its staff.

Regards

Nathan Safe
AIPA President

[Mstr Caution]

Through our program, becoming a pilot need no longer be a pipe-dream for aspiring aviators as this key initiative provides a unique pathway for young people to enter commercial flying. Bruce Buchanan 2nd June 2010.

The Federal Court agrees, this unique pathway was actually illegal.

As Australia's National carrier, we feel we have a responsibility to work with & contribute to the communities we serve everyday. Alan Joyce. February 2014.

Yeah right Alan, back to your CEO Cook Off.

[plainmaker]

In all of the media reports of this decision that I have managed to peruse, I note that any reference to Qantas (as the ultimate owner) has been redacted.

Might be that my reading list is limited, or perhaps the PR machine made very sure that any link was erased (conspiracy theory).

Informative journalism - bah humbug!

Plainmaker

[Prince Niccolo M]

I wonder if a retrospective examination of Joyce and Buchanan's evidence to the Senate Inquiry will reveal any issues, now that we all have a glimpse of what was actually going on in Jetstar and what their internal advice was? :eek: Given that both people were renowned control freaks, there wouldn't be much 'plausible deniability' in "really, nobody told me - I would never have authorised that!" :E

[BlackPrince77]

I believe they get over 100 applications for each Cadet position.

Yes, using NZ contracts was a dirty, unethical trick.

Yes, they did charge Cadets when they shouldn't have.

Yes, you could do the training maybe $20,000 cheaper yourself.

Yes, spending time in GA is probably good experience.

But - about 90% of the Cadets who start the training finish the training end end up working for Jetstar as a pilot.

A lot of the other integrated have a completion rate of maybe 30% and no guarantee of a job.

If you were a young pilot coming thru and could get into the right hand seat in two years and start earning decent money, rather than bumming around in GA for maybe ten years, it makes sense.

I've met several people who've been thru the Jetstar Cadetship, and while they may have the odd gripe, in general they are pretty happy with the way things have turned out for them. Well said, although Jetstar aren't going to stop trying to find ways saving money even at the cost of their staff....

[Iron Bar]

I guess there are are a few interested parties looking at Hansard.

[Keith Myath]

Busdriver007 wrote
Credit where credit's due!

Nice propaganda piece. It could be used in a study of fictional revisionism. However, cast your eyes back to a previous AIPA insights from May 2011.

Whilst the AFAP has sought to stop the Company from employing cadets and first officers by issuing legal proceedings in the Federal Court, these proceedings only address the ancillary issues as to whether the contracts of, or offered to, cadets and first officers within Jetstar Group Pty Ltd meet the minimum terms and conditions in the Air Pilots Award 2010. It does not in any way address the core issue that these pilots should have been employed under the EBA in the first place, rather than the Air Pilots Award.

Accordingly, we will be demanding that the Company provide AIPA with a written undertaking that it acknowledges that it is the employer of the cadets and first officers, and that it will comply with the EBA with regard to their employment. If the Company refuses to accede to our demands, AIPA will commence legal proceedings against the Company, independent to those brought by the AFAP, to tackle the core and real issue.

In 2011 AIPA were saying that breaches of the Air Pilots Award were ‘ancillary’ and didn’t address the core issue. Yet it is exactly those breaches of the Air Pilots Award that the AFAP first identified in their Federal court action in 2011 that were the basis of the penalties just handed down.

Strange that AIPA find it necessary to now try to claim credit for penalties awarded in a case that was based on what they originally ****canned.

The AFAP’s proceedings were spot on, Jetstar breached the Air Pilots Award, and the Fair Work Ombudsman followed up on the breach the AFAP’s case highlighted.

Fair Work Ombudsman v Jetstar Airways Ltd [2014] FCA 33 (http://www.judgments.fedcourt.gov.au/judgments/Judgments/fca/single/2014/2014fca0033)

It speaks volumes that no one thought it worthwhile to mention AIPA in the decision.

The next thing you know, AIPA will be claim to be instrumental in making the sun rise!!!

[busdriver007]

Keith,
The "core issue" is that Jetstar NZ is exactly what Jetconnect is, an employment agency that specifically bypasses not only the Australian Agreements but also the Fair Work Act. In 2011 it received a $15 million "interest free" loan from Jetconnect just to keep soluble, having less than $4500 in the bank. After 12 months the $15 million was written off and the interest Jetstar NZ would have paid was instead reported as profit. Jetconnect is a similar financially engineered entity that does not pay it's own way, in other words the profit/loss reported each year is the result of Qantas(Australia) paying the cost of operation plus or minus whatever the company feels like reporting. For example in 2011/2012 Qantas paid 112% of the operating costs of Jetconnect and reported the 12% as Jetconnect profit. This sets the trend for what aviation companies can and will do. That my friend, is why the words "ancillary issues" were used. If Qantas spent more time running an airline instead of creating schemes to save them small(in the scheme of things) ways. This is not a AIPA/AFAP thing. You should open your mind to long term problems facing the industry and the future careers of the next generation. All these issues were raised by AIPA with the FW Ombudmans at their request in 2011. Qantas would have us concentrate on the smaller issues instead such as the Modern Pilot's Award instead of concentrate on the big picture. There are certain tax implications that both the New Zealand and Australian Governments may need to look at. The sooner AFAP and AIPA got together the better off we will all be but the older generation need to move on and forget what happened in 1981 or 1989. So much wasted energy fighting each other which is exactly what the employers want. :ugh:

[waren9]

keith, reads to me like afap discontinued proceedings in some back room deal, and penalties for breaches are only because aipa raised a challenge.

[Iron Bar]

Warren! Wash your keyboard out with soap.

Back room deal, AFAP, the shining light of industrial integrity, Never!!! You're thinking of the JP . . . . . . Oh hang on.

[Keith Myath]

The only people here trying to rewrite history are AIPA.

Penalties were handed down because Jetstar contravened the Air Pilots Award, and it was the AFAP that ran the case that pointed that fact out. The Fair Work Ombudsman ran the case that got penalties awarded against Jetstar. AIPA reported it to the FWO.

Warren, if you think the AFAP did some underhanded shady deal, maybe you should raise that with them directly. And if AIPA raised a legal challenge, there would be a public record of it in a court. How about you find it, $100 says you can’t.

The sooner AFAP and AIPA got together the better off we will all be but the older generation need to move on and forget what happened in 1981 or 1989.

Given that AIPA is the ex overseas branch of the AFAP, maybe you should seek to re-integrate yourself back into the AFAP. The other airlines and aviation entities / individuals represented by the AFAP all seem to co-operate and get along fine. The alternative is to stay isolated as an enterprise union that only looks after Qantas Pilots.

[waren9]

so

AFAP did raise a legal challenge to Jetstar's activities, but discontinued it in a private agreement with Jetstar. AIPA also raised a legal challenge, fortunately without having to begin formal proceedings.

is false?

[Ratherbefishintoday]

The Sun Rises __


I'm sure many of you have by now become aware that the sun has risen this morning. Click here to view the decision (http://www.flickr.com/photos/isabellevandenberg/6996304/) or alternatively walk outside and look up at the big yellow ball in the sky.

Some of you might note that the press coverage implies that gravity and the laws of physics were instrumental in the decision to make the sun rise - that is not the case. While gravity did attempt to raise the sun, it was discontinued it in a private agreement with the Sun.

It was through our sheer might that the sun rose. We wrote letters of demand, followed by stern letters of demand, followed by raised voices and a threat to walk out. The clincher was red ties and sternly worded PA’s to the sun.

Our strategies have attracted some critics, but I think members can be quite satisfied that the work we put into this issue has had a very positive and tangible outcome.

I trust that you are in no doubt as to the sheer might and power of our organisation.

Regards,

Saeed al-Sahhaf (AKA Comical Ali)

Australian and International Propaganda Association

[HomeJames]

This thread drift is sounding like sour grapes by the MOU guys and the JPC member.

[Lawrie Cox]

Waren9
How quickly you forget this item was at the time subject of many posts and copies of our newsletters at the time.
Do an advanced search and you will find it under Jetstar Legal action update. It included the newsletter that printed the consent orders of Justice Marshall on our legal action which are reported in the relevant legal publications for all to see, so there was no back room deals. The fact that AIPA did not raise an application at the time is why there is no reference to any position held at the time.
Bus driver your quote about the two unions coming together is something i have put publicly on these forums but again your references that AIPA are superior to AFAP is part of the reason it is unlikely to happen.
It equally does not help when faux positions are put about how successful the legal strategy of AIPA is in respect to Jetstar. The recent case was not run by either union it was a prosecution by the FWO and the reason we were mentioned is because we have actual material proof of action rather than being 'verballed'.
The final decision in this matter is usually an agreed set of facts and the real reason AIPA wasn't mentioned was nobody thought them relevant.
Lawrie Cox
AFAP

[waren9]

which i'm not necessarily privy to, you forget lawrie

guess i will have to do some scouting if i want anything further.

[Lawrie Cox]

Waren9
I was not suggesting access as a member it is all here at PPrune in the archives which is where I went to check before commenting.
All I was saying is that the process was totally transparent with nothing hidden and I published on PPrune that information for that specific reason to stop the conspiracy theorists.
Lawrie Cox

[Jumpindan]

Last year AIPA and AFAP charged pilots over $9.35 million just in membership dues. AIPA is claiming they helped enforce a law that was already on the books (and pilots would have won a judgement without union influence) and J* paid $90k in fines. J* stole from six cadets, but the unions steal from everyone of us that fly. The unions drastically reduce safety by insuring promotions are based on seniority and not skill, and limit opportunity for growth. The unions are more to blame for these issues than the airlines.

[mcgrath50]

Jumpindan

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast USA, Northern Africa
Age: 34
Posts: 1

Posted without comment.

[waren9]

dan has a point re seniority but the companys decision to ignore established employment law was self admitted

[CaptCloudbuster]

The unions drastically reduce safety by insuring promotions are based on seniority and not skill

Rubbish.

The seniority system ensures the opportunity for promotion however the candidate must pass his course and check on his own merit.

[Lawrie Cox]

Jumped
Lest rubbish become fact by ignorance. And since some wish to attack or paint all unions unfairly. Suggest you check figures which are readily available firstly to members on our web site and also on the regulators website (Fair Work).

I will only speak as AFAP our income was $2.3 Mil in subscriptions last year and our outgoings are all reported. Of course the simple fact is we have elected pilot members who oversee the finances and auditors as well. All expenditure is approved by a Finance Committee, Executive and Annual Convention. So the statement that any members money is stolen or mis appropriated is a lie.
Please leave the silly accusations to the building industry, health and government.

In so far as unions are to blame: if you were a member you would understand that you are the fabric of the union so you accuse fellow pilots of the blocking or actions which the company are at fault.
Seniority is only ever a right when someone is qualified and has the skill set able to be trained to a position it does not and never has bypassed safety. But i guess you would know that as you seem to be knowledgeable or everything else.
The only stealing i would suggest that is occurring is you and the oxygen surrounding you.
Lawrie Cox

[Humbly Reserved]

Well said Lawrie,

As for Unions, I would just like to point out something I learnt some years ago. That one of the prime distinctions between an undeveloped country and a developed one is the unionisation of its labourforce.

Humbly