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Yamagata ken
4th Feb 2014, 12:58
"Ukip is a threat to peace in Europe, says Germany"

Ukip is a threat to peace in Europe, says Germany - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10615869/Ukip-is-a-threat-to-peace-in-Europe-says-Germany.html)

Really? A German politician lecturing the UK on peace and security in Europe. Really?

AtomKraft
4th Feb 2014, 13:09
And some people believe the Germans have no sense of humour........:)

Tu.114
4th Feb 2014, 13:58
So let us attack the message, not the man. Is what he says untrue?

Let me sum it up:

- Most of the wars that happened in Europe over the last 1-2 centuries can be traced back to nationalism to a great part.

- Therefore, keeping nationalism at bay is paramount for long-term peace. Communication and close collaboration between countries are indispensible for this.

- The EU is a forum for communication and collaboration, and has proven successful in many cases. However, there are groups that consider the present problems of the EU grounds for its dissolving and are willing to sacrifice the whole project. This will endanger peace in Europe in the long term.

- The UKI party is one of those groups advocating the return to nationalism, as are several others all over Europe including Germany.

So it is not about imminent declaration of war, what he says is about mid- to long term destabilisation. And I think he is right about this.

papajuliet
4th Feb 2014, 14:07
History shows that forcing disparate countries together, against the will of their people, always ends in war in one form or another - perhaps conflict is a better word than war. It might take generations but it surely happens.

BenThere
4th Feb 2014, 14:10
UKIP is definitely a threat to the EU, the impending demise of which is what I think the German foreign minister is really afraid of.

We are in a transition just like the late 1970's, when the left gave way to the right. Just as Thatcher turned the tide, portending Reagan and the Glorious Alliance, UKIP will, I predict, take command and steer us all toward a similar renaissance. It's my fondest hope.

Lots of folks in the EU and UK won't like it, but their failures brought it about. Socialism in general, the incessantly increasing cost of the welfare state, and mass immigration of non-productive dependents doesn't improve, but deflates the prospects of the masses.

When they ultimately figure it out, they switch sides, as is happening now, both here in the US, as well as the UK and Western Europe.

Smeagol
4th Feb 2014, 14:12
Could disagree with you TU114.

Most recent wars in Europe have been as a result of 1) blatent expansionism on behalf of individual country's ( Germany, WWII) or alternatively 2) the breakdown of artificially created states or groupings of separate small states (eg breakup of Yugoslavia and resulting conflict).

Whist rampant nationalism might be the cause of 1) it could be argued that if the EU 'project' fails (as it well might!) the result could be the same as 2).

It seems to me that the larger the EU becomes the more likely the split and the unpredictable fallout of that!

Nothing wrong with nationalism, it's when a country has designs on pieces or all of another that the problems occur.

tony draper
4th Feb 2014, 14:17
They feckers dont like the idea of anyone stirring the trough they all have their snouts eyebrow deep in.:suspect:

Lon More
4th Feb 2014, 14:19
History shows that forcing disparate countries together, against the will of their people, always ends in war in one form or another - perhaps conflict is a better word than war. It might take generations but it surely happens

Proven by the Act of Union, 1707.

funfly
4th Feb 2014, 14:30
Most of the wars that happened in Europe over the last 1-2 centuries can be traced back to nationalism to a great part.

I think you are wrong, most of the wars in Europe over the last couple of centuries have been caused by the greed for power/land by the ruling classes of various countries.

Take Kaiser Wilhelm II who launched Germany on a policy that culminated in his support for Austria-Hungary in the crisis of July 1914 that led to the First World War. Related, of course, to Queen Victoria.

So we had millions of brave men laying down their lives, some on behalf of the "The British King" - George 5th. (Saxe-Coburg-Gotha). married to Princess Victoria Mary of Teck (a town in modern-day Germany) and some on behalf of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Neither of which managed to get themselves dirty at the actual battle scene themselves.

You might like to look at my book "The Amazing Story of the Kitchener Poster" which has some details about events around WW1 which are quite interesting.

Lonewolf_50
4th Feb 2014, 14:32
They feckers dont like the idea of anyone stirring the trough they all have their snouts eyebrow deep in.:suspect:
That is one way to paint it.

I have seen another argument, which goes back about 20 years as the euro train began building steam:

The Euro, which is inextricably linked to the EU, and was backed initially by the financial power of the Bundesbank, is an attempt once again by Germans to bully and control other European nations -- this time by financial and economic means, rather than by arms.

Granted, that isn't the only way to look at it.

Capetonian
4th Feb 2014, 14:58
The EU and its economic policies are a threat to peace, democracy, and stability. We have already seen that and I fear worse may still lie ahead.

sitigeltfel
4th Feb 2014, 15:03
Granted, that isn't the only way to look at it.

You could say that the Germans decided they were going to try to make it work, while the PIGS thought it was just a good excuse to go to the beach and let the Germans and other Northern Europeans do all the hard graft.

Tu.114
4th Feb 2014, 15:09
Smeagol (and everyone else), You are of course welcome to disagree with me.

However, was not the German expansionism in WW2 fuelled with nationalism? The desire to give the country back a perceived "greatness", wash off the "disgrace of Versailles" by taking revenge, and conquer some lands in the east ("Lebensraum") to ease the, again perceived, overpopulation ("Volk ohne Raum") is nothing else than plain old nationalism.

Also WW1. Of course, Europe was rife for a war at that time and the spark could have come from anyone anywhere. Germany was looking for a "sunny place" ("Platz an der Sonne") and longed for some colonies and associated prestige, being the late starter in the race around the world (what else is this but nationalism); the UKs motive for spreading around the world and trying to contain (from an UK standpoint) or corner (from a German standpoint) Germany surely were not purely altruistic and free from nationalism either. And so on.

Yes, greed for area and expansion may have been at the surface - but dig down a bit and You will find good old nationalism, rooted in different things dependent on exact time and country.


Again, I do not claim that a breakup of the EU would cause the next great European war the next day. But surely, Europe would not be a safer place after the removal of a place where differences are talked (and argued) about and settled. Consider how many wars have been fought in Europe until 1945 and how few years were in between them. Since 1948, we are sure to have omitted at least one or two wars between EU members - and I do blame this to a great part on the EU.

If one country changes its mind and finds that the benefits no longer outweigh the downsides of being member of the EU, it should not be up to everyone else to adjust and cater to this. Since the treaty of Lisbon came in force, the option to leave is available. Either follow the good democratic custom of accepting majority decisions (some wailing or gnashing of teeth is of course allowed for internal consumption if needed), or use the provided way out.

MG23
4th Feb 2014, 15:12
However, was not the German expansionism in WW2 fuelled with nationalism? The desire to give the country back a perceived "greatness", wash off the "disgrace of Versailles" by taking revenge, and conquer some lands in the east ("Lebensraum") to ease the, again perceived, overpopulation ("Volk ohne Raum") is nothing else than plain old nationalism.

No, it was fuelled by the desire to unite Europe under Germany.

Hey, guess what?

OFSO
4th Feb 2014, 15:15
Consider how many wars have been fought in Europe

Wars are a natural state of man. They weed out the weaker nations, cut back on the population, reduce the birthrate, and improve the health of the survivors. They also stimulate industry.

Hat, coat, boots and down to the Anderson Shelter at t'bottom of garden.

BenThere
4th Feb 2014, 15:16
Since 1948, we are sure to have omitted at least one or two wars between EU members - and I do blame this to a great part on the EU.

I suggest you also acknowledge the contribution of the United States post-1945 in helping to make Europe a peaceful and prosperous place.

rgbrock1
4th Feb 2014, 15:17
“War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.”

M.Mouse
4th Feb 2014, 15:46
The EU is a forum for communication and collaboration, and has proven successful in many cases. However, there are groups that consider the present problems of the EU grounds for its dissolving and are willing to sacrifice the whole project. This will endanger peace in Europe in the long term.

So belonging to an unwieldy, bureaucratic, money stealing corrupt club suppresses nationalism and ensures peace?

How interesting.

airship
4th Feb 2014, 15:51
Whilst suitably kow-towing or otherwise acknowledging (from past experiences here) that the OP Yamagata ken is JB's own specialist / expert in all matters concerning Japanese earthquakes; tsunamis; relief efforts involved therein; even Japanese nuclear power stations in general...?!

And before I get banned (yet again) for having contributed to one of your previous posts concerning Japan, may one humbly ask what is Yamagata ken's intention/s concerning this subject? And quite distant from your specialised knowledge.

I do see a very tenuous link: Japan - Germany - WWII?! But most of us here have already "made our peace with Germany". Perhaps you (together with your APEC and ASEAN colleagues) should return to stirring the noodles in your own saucepan before they over-cook, instead of attempting to "stir things up" here in Europe? :ok:

PS. We already have enough of our own home-grown anti-EU activists here, generally going by the names of OFSO and/or Capetonian... :uhoh:

Capetonian
4th Feb 2014, 15:57
generally going by the names of OFSO and/or CapetonianYou've done that one to death. If it amuses you to think that OFSO and I are the same person, then play your little game, but he, and I, and plenty of other people know that we are not.
Is it really so hard for you to swallow the fact that there may be more than just one person in the JB universe who shares the same views about the EU?

Tu.114
4th Feb 2014, 15:58
BenThere,

first of all let me apologize for the upcoming thread drift. I indeed do acknowledge the role both the USA and the USSR played in maintaining the fragile peace after WW2. After the war, Europe was in ruins, and a power vacuum was present between the two big, freshly hatched superpowers. So it was a logical step to fill it as far as possible in order to contain the other side.

Methods of course varied - while the USSR preferred to extract ressources from its new safety cordon for its own reconstruction and kept up good order by proven old Stalinist principles, the USA, having had only some outskirts briefly singed and not its heartland ravaged by war, had the means and good sense to provide help in rebuilding the economies in its sphere of influence to avoid a Versailles Mk. 2. (the Morgenthau plan that was on the menu for Germany for a while as well would have led down that road). This not only built up prosperous societies in Europe, but also provided a market for US exports. And most of all, both the Soviet and the US borders were largely to be defended in Germany in case of need.

So it was in the best interest of both superpowers to keep good order in Europe for their own safety while keeping the frontlines against the other side strong. In the west this was assisted by allowing the formation of the EU to bring together former mortal enemies, in the east by crushing down any dissent (although in theory the COMECON, diverse friendship societies, and Warsaw Pact may be construed as counterparts to their Western equivalents), but both aiming at keeping the protective cordon healthy and not fighting within itself, but able to focus on the common enemy on the other side of the curtain.

That the conflict was to be lost and won economically instead of in a hot war, and therefore the forte of the Western side became the deciding issue, was likely not foreseeable in the late 1940s - but this way of resolving the conflict was definitely the best.

OFSO
4th Feb 2014, 16:02
In 1968 as a young lad I left the UK where I'd been working and went to start a long career working in Germany.

Comparing the state of London which I left behind with the city of Darmstadt where I arrived, I had to ask myself - which city and which country profited most from WW-II ? The answer to that rhetorical question is that Germany in the post-war period did very well out of WW-II, far better than the United Kindom.

(And before anyone says Darmstadt was not bombed as much as London, read your history).

The SSK
4th Feb 2014, 16:10
I know it's Jet Blast heresy but Tu114 could use an ally so I'll stand alongside him.

Being a 34-year Brussels veteran in daily contact with the institutions (but not part thereof) and on a personal level acquainted with many of their denizens, I get mildly bothered by the unceasing flow of ignorance on the part of those who have never bothered to take the time to find out how the EU functions.

If you are looking for 'snouts in the trough', look no further than the UKIP MEPs who true to their principles take no part whatsoever in the legislative process, just turn up, sign in, pocket the pay and allowances and bugger off.

cavortingcheetah
4th Feb 2014, 16:11
Here's a Pickelhaube in the trench with OFSO.

World War I was started as a result of action by deranged socialists.
World War II was started as a result of action by deranged socialists.
The Korean war was started as a result of action by deranged socialists.
Having failed by means of force the socialists now attempt, by rule and regulation, to enslave the countries of Europe under one hegemony.
It is time for a new European war! A war started by those who are patriots but who are not Socialists. A war that breaks the shackles of Brusselian enslavement and allows man's return to individualism, nationalism and the rights of man as enshrined in the US Constitution.

G-CPTN
4th Feb 2014, 16:13
As a young schoolboy visiting Germany on school trips in the 1950s I was amazed by the newness of the town centres (apart from the ancient rural settlements that seemed to be a couple of centuries behind with oxen-cart still in use).
It took a while for the realisation that the newness was as a result of the Wartime destruction.

Places like Bonn had new railway stations with electric signalling and also a new Parliament building. Shops were all clean and new, too.

BenThere
4th Feb 2014, 16:14
You bring a tear to my eye, Cheetah. Godspeed!

funfly
4th Feb 2014, 16:16
If you are looking for 'snouts in the trough', look no further than the UKIP MEPs who true to their principles take no part whatsoever in the legislative process, just turn up, sign in, pocket the pay and allowances and bugger off.

Totally Agree, one of the best examples is the Kinnock family, what a good socialist there.:ok:

Cavortingcheeta - not quite sure where you got your history from:sad:

500N
4th Feb 2014, 16:20
"I get mildly bothered by the unceasing flow of ignorance on the part of those who have never bothered to take the time to find out how the EU functions."

The EU
We have a new law that says that certain childrens playground equipment
needs to be removed as it is a danger to children.
We give terrorists more human rights than the general population and no
end of appeals.
EU law trumps National law.
You will comply or else.

Yep, the EU functions as though Nazi Germany had won WWII and
invaded and conquered England.

The SSK
4th Feb 2014, 16:27
Sorry, 500N, who is 'we'? You're Australian, aren't you?

Maybe you can quote this law, its reference and what it actually says?

And funfly, Neil Kinnock was a Commissioner not an MEP. Do you know the difference? In his second term he imposed cuts in salaries and allowances across the Commission. Trough feeder?

As I said, the flow of ignorance from those on the outside goes on undiminished.

OFSO
4th Feb 2014, 16:29
the unceasing flow of ignorance on the part of those who have never bothered to take the time to find out how the EU functions.

Well SSK, I AM on the fringe of the EU, I visit establishments at Luxembourg, Strasbourg, Brussels, and Paris, and because of the gross inefficiency, corruption, and utter waste of money in the sacred offices of the EU which I see almost every time I am there, I joined a political party for the first time in my life - and it was UKIP.

500N
4th Feb 2014, 16:32
SSK

No, English originally. Family in UK, keep up to date with what is going on.
"Maybe you can quote this law, its reference and what it actually says?"

Playground equipment standards - EN 1176

Do I need to ?
Just look at the BS that the UK has to go through to get someone sent back home,
even though they are a known terrorist / trouble maker ?

Look at the situation re the EU telling the UK about life sentences of prisoners.

chuks
4th Feb 2014, 16:33
I don't think it's reasonable to compare the modern EU to Nazi Germany. Brussels bureaucrats certainly can be annoying, but they are not running killing factories, are they? Perhaps the worst that can be said of them is that they are ruining things with the very best of intentions, where the Nazis embodied the very worst of intentions. There's simply no comparison beyond the most superficial.

The SSK
4th Feb 2014, 16:36
"Maybe you can quote this law, its reference and what it actually says?"

Do I need to ?

No, you can simply state that 'there is a law that says...' and everyone will believe you.
That's where most of the misinformation about the EU comes from.

500N
4th Feb 2014, 16:45
SSK

OK, in it's most basic form.

Why the hell do national countries need the EU to dictate to them
about Health and Safety, Childrens Playground equipment and a
whole raft of things that would best left to the nations themselves ?

As bad as the UN although thankfully it seems more and more countries
are just choosing to totally ignore the UN - including Australia :ok:

airship
4th Feb 2014, 16:50
Capetonian wrote: You've done that one to death. If it amuses you to think that OFSO and I are the same person, then play your little game, but he, and I, and plenty of other people know that we are not.
Is it really so hard for you to swallow the fact that there may be more than just one person in the JB universe who shares the same views about the EU?

What's perhaps somewhat amusing is that you can so easily speak on behalf of OFSO. If indeed, there are "others here" who can confirm you're not one and the same, you need only to make an effort and ensure that these "other entities" come to your support here rapidly.

PS. Remember to properly "log-out", clear all browser caches etc. and obtain a new IP address before doing so...?! ;)

Fantome
4th Feb 2014, 17:15
settle petals . . .. . . . please don't get side tracked into personal vilification.
Respect the fact that there will always be a multitude of conflicting opinions.
This thread is an education to those who are neither close to the EU nor have come to any hard and fast opinion.

what airship had to say about ken and his 'status' should either be accepted or ignored. becoming heated is pointless.

Krystal n chips
4th Feb 2014, 17:19
" UKIP will, I predict, take command".....presumably led by an American ?


Dear Mystic Meg,

May I start by saying that, along with possibly being the worst political commentator and philosopher to grace the planet, your career as a soothsayer and crystal ball / tarot card / rune stones or indeed whatever you use to predict the future has the same base of pure incompetency.

I would suggest a career change therefore, alas I am unable to suggest a suitable alternative. The village idiot role is now consigned to history anyway.

Next, the little matter of some confusion, alas, on your part. The UK's national flag is the Union Jack, not the Stars and Stripes thus, shocking news though this may be to you, we are not actually governed by the U.S.A, despite your now developing trend to inform us as to how grateful we should be to America....I am uncertain as to whether to prostrate myself in supplication in the direction of Washington D.C...or have an orgasm when offered your ever so slightly skewed perceptions on here.

You mentioned how you would be grateful to be kept updated by me about U.K.I.P's progress. I am delighted to oblige of course....here's a couple of splendid, albeit now former chaps, whom, I am sure you will agree, are just the sort to fulfil your prediction :

BBC News - Henley-on-Thames councillor David Silvester expelled from UKIP (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-26034104)

BBC News - Former UKIP spokesman was kidnapping gang 'boss' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26019668)

And then there's this...straight from the Divine Saviour Himself, or Equine Orifice ( either end ) if you prefer....


Nigel Farage disowns all of Ukip?s 2010 manifesto policies » Spectator Blogs (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/01/nigel-farage-disowns-all-of-ukips-2010-manifesto-policies/)

Now, as there is a vacancy for the Overseas representative, why not apply ?

You are, after all, more than over qualified for the role and, even better, why not set a few weeks aside in 2015 and come over to the, as yet unnumbered State of America and campaign on behalf of U.K.I.P....Nige, would, I am sure, welcome you with open arms !

Tu.114
4th Feb 2014, 17:34
Why the hell do national countries need the EU to dictate to them
about Health and Safety, Childrens Playground equipment and a
whole raft of things that would best left to the nations themselves ?

Simple - a common, unified market needs common, unified rules among others.

500N
4th Feb 2014, 17:39
"The UK's national flag is the Union Jack, not the Stars and Stripes thus, shocking news though this may be to you, we are not actually governed by the U.S.A,"

but governed and subservient to the EU.

BenThere
4th Feb 2014, 17:40
being the worst political commentator and philosopher to grace the planet

You exalt me with merit I have no hope of achieving. If I am the worst as you see it, I must be the best. I'll strut proudly today with the honor you have laid upon me.

As a token of my appreciation, I'm going to send a contribution to UKIP in your honor, Krystal. Thanks for your support.

500N
4th Feb 2014, 17:42
Tu

To an extent, yes, it just depends on how far you take it.

Childrens playground equipment ?
Recycling ?

Come on, sounds like jobsworth keeping themselves with a nose in the trough.

cavortingcheetah
4th Feb 2014, 17:52
A common unified market, needing common unified rules, would function at its maximum common efficiency with a common and borderless race of people under one supreme unifying master? Someone like José Manuel Baroso, for example,the well known çi devant and self avowed Maoist President of the European Commission.That all does sound rather thoroughly like one of those nasty states one reads about that flourished during the last century.

Tu.114
4th Feb 2014, 17:55
500N,

just an example that crosses my mind: for example, insurance companies benefit from equal liability rules in this case. A child falling off a swing and getting injured on a concrete floor might be considered to have run afoul of an acceptable risk of life in one country, but be entitled to payments in another contry that mandates rubber tiles.

Recycling - in absence of equal rules, one might cart industrial waste just some 100m across the border to cheaply and legally dump it in a landfill instead of expensively treating it.

It is all about levelling the playground within Europe and allowing everyone the same chances and risks. Of course, what is an improvement to one side is a dangerous relaxation of rules to the other side, and a tougher-than-anywhere-before rule is also prone to draw flak. This process is certainly not easy, especially when one considers the wide array of countries participating ranging from Finland to Portugal, and also takes some learning on the job, but in my humble opinion, it is certainly worth the while.

BenThere
4th Feb 2014, 18:02
"The UK's national flag is the Union Jack, not the Stars and Stripes thus, shocking news though this may be to you, we are not actually governed by the U.S.A,"

The Flags we honor, Union Jack, Stars and Stripes, Southern Cross, and others- are solemn to those who salute them. I will always reserve a handshake in respect for any man who pays respects to his flag, even if he was my enemy.

cavortingcheetah
4th Feb 2014, 18:06
The borders, where are the borders? Who delineates them, colonial style with a line on a map? Whose rights will be trampled on? Does Europe include Turkey or Russia. Does it stretch East of the Urals? Should it include Morocco or Israel? Is successful expansion measured in territorial acquisition? In another era that was called Liebensraum. Men went to war over it.

500N
4th Feb 2014, 18:11
"just an example that crosses my mind: for example, insurance companies benefit from equal liability rules in this case. A child falling off a swing and getting injured on a concrete floor might be considered to have run afoul of an acceptable risk of life in one country, but be entitled to payments in another contry that mandates rubber tiles."

"but be entitled to payments in another contry that mandates rubber tiles".
So go live there then.

"It is all about levelling the playground within Europe and allowing everyone the same chances and risks."

Sounds like social engineering to me and giving those in the past who were too
lazy to get up and do something a free ride.

If it was all so level, why does everyone want to head to the UK for the lovely benefits and free housing ?

The problem is when politics enters the realm and they start imposing rules
that people don't want. When the rules become so over bearing or disagreed with, people will just start ignoring the rules.

Lon More
4th Feb 2014, 18:30
Ther UK representatives could have objected to any rule change. Or perhaps though, like Farage, all some wanted to do was grab the money and run?

The UK's national flag is the Union Jack,

No it's not, it's the Union Flag

JFZ90
4th Feb 2014, 18:31
Thing to bear in mind is that Germans tend to remember and point out the origins of European Integration, in a way that I don't think many Brits associate with the EU - I think its a common misconception in the UK that European integration is all about economics & common trade for overall prosperity etc.

See wiki entry in quotes below....one of the primary goals was stability and avoiding future conflict, something that has it seems been forgotten over time.

In that respect their fear over what UKIP stands for is legitimate, even if it seems totally unthinkable today that another conflict like WWII could happen again in Europe.

After World War II, moves towards European integration were seen by many as an escape from the extreme forms of nationalism that had devastated the continent.[26] The 1948 Hague Congress was a pivotal moment in European federal history, as it led to the creation of the European Movement International and also of the College of Europe, a place where Europe's future leaders would live and study together.[27] 1952 saw the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was declared to be "a first step in the federation of Europe", starting with the aim of eliminating the possibility of further wars between its member states by means of pooling the national heavy industries.[28] The founding members of the Community were Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany.

Tu.114
4th Feb 2014, 18:39
Sounds like social engineering to me and giving those in the past who were too
lazy to get up and do something a free ride.

No, not those that were to lazy to get up. Those that were not afforded any opportunity to get on their feet or even actively kept from it. I look in the direction of Eastern Europe here; that they managed to topple their dictators a while ago at some personal risk is certainly not a sign of laziness or inability to take matters into their own hands.

If it was all so level, why does everyone want to head to the UK for the lovely benefits and free housing ?

Note how I never said that the aims have been achieved. Of course, there are economic backwaters in Eastern Europe that are far from being on par with Western European areas. I think it somewhat logical that people from those areas tend to move to where the jobs are, and also the non-law abiding go where the loot is. I live less than an hour by car from the Hungarian border and about 5 hours from the nearest Romanian city (Arad) and cross-border crime is rather well known here, possibly even more so than in the UK with its longer distances to Eastern Europe. I however maintain that building up structures in the poorer countries is the way to go instead of building walls, trenches, razor wire and the like. Consider e. g. the German-Polish or the Austrian-Slovak border areas - 20 years ago, trans-border crime was massive, but with the impressive economic recovery in Poland and Slovakia (see the large new car works at Bratislava or Zilina for example), things have normalized rather well. Even to a point where people from either country buy property on either side of the border to live in and one might well find a Slovak real estate agent offer building grounds in Austria. And the local burglars find enough places to burglarize on their side of the border as well.

So give it another 10 years or so of economic aid, and the situation both in the UK and here will look much less troublesome.

dead_pan
4th Feb 2014, 18:42
Ah, another UKIP thread - fantastic. I think its more likely UKIP will start a civil war in the UK before they do in Europe, the way things are going with this crazed, moronic party. By way of example, and for our American brethren, have heard the one about the UKIP councillor who claimed the recent floods in the UK were God's punishment for us allowing gay marriages? (this isn't the start of a joke, in case you were wondering). Apparently a rather angry mob of his constituents are going to 'have it out' with him this evening. Sounds like a fun night out - alas I'm otherwise occupied.

MG23
4th Feb 2014, 18:43
In that respect their fear over what UKIP stands for is legitimate, even if it seems totally unthinkable today that another conflict like WWII could happen again in Europe.

That's because no-one can afford it, now a single F-35 costs as much as several squadrons of Spitfires.

There are two reasons there have been no major European wars since WWII:

1. Hundreds of thousands of US troops with nuclear weapons.
2. An existential threat to Europe from the Soviet Union.

The EU has done nothing to stop wars, and is doing its best to create an EU-wide civil war as it tries to turn Greeks and Italians into Germans.

Mac the Knife
4th Feb 2014, 18:43
A Zollverein between economically similar states is a good idea, but trying to unite such a diversity of nations as greater Europe into a single economic state is not a good plan. A vast bureaucracy which is too inflexible and too clumsy.

About as practical as the African Union...

(It didn't work for the Austro-Hungarian Empire either)

Mac

:}

dead_pan
4th Feb 2014, 18:46
...oh, I forgot to mention the other ex-ukipper who had reportedly done 7 years in a Pakistani jail for his role in a kidnapping plot. Mind you, its nice to see the state broadcasting media getting the bit between their teeth after having given Nige and his cronies far too easy a time of it last year.

vee-tail-1
4th Feb 2014, 18:49
Well I am ignorant of the EU in the way that SSK suggests, and wish that I knew more so that it made more sense to me.

Equally I find TU.114s posts very interesting since he touches on the reasons why I support the IDEA of the EU … but not the way it sometimes seems to work in practice.

For example: It was an insane own goal for successive UK governments to encourage mass immigration from non EU countries. We continue to allow immigration from those countries causing ever more cultural, economic, and demographic problems. Plus we are now about to receive more immigrants from EU countries.

We should be able to control immigration and deport those we don’t want, but ECHR rules stop us. That is the primary reason why more and more ethnic Brits would like to leave the EU, and/or support UKIP. Give us back the right to throw out Muslim terrorists, foreign criminals, economic migrants, asylum/benefits seeking scroungers, etc, and the appeal of UKIP will be much less.

dead_pan
4th Feb 2014, 18:59
Hold on, what happened to that Home Office report which Teresa May was told to produce late last year on the impact of immigration on the UK? Ah yes, it was quietly buried when it turns out they have had a net positive economic impact. Funny that.

And where are all those Bulgarian and Romanian immigrants? Haven't seen one yet, let alone the hordes which some vicious corners of the media were predicting.

Tu.114
4th Feb 2014, 19:15
...it turns out they have had a net positive economic impact.
Indeed, it is the same in Austria. There exist studies to the same result but the voice of reason is much quieter than that of the fearmongers here as well.

May I add that the positive impact is experienced both by the host countries and those the migrants left. In the former, they work and pay taxes, while they often send a part of their salaries to their families in the latter, thereby slowly increasing the standard of living. A bad thing? On the large scale, definitely not, but I acknowledge that an influx of trained and motivated workers into a country will definitely have an effect on the less well trained or less motivated locals. At least in Austria, this group definitely feels the pinch and somewhat logically turns to the populists during election time much more than any other.

Capetonian
4th Feb 2014, 19:16
Capetonian wrote: Quote:
You've done that one to death. If it amuses you to think that OFSO and I are the same person, then play your little game, but he, and I, and plenty of other people know that we are not.
Is it really so hard for you to swallow the fact that there may be more than just one person in the JB universe who shares the same views about the EU?
What's perhaps somewhat amusing is that you can so easily speak on behalf of OFSO. If indeed, there are "others here" who can confirm you're not one and the same, you need only to make an effort and ensure that these "other entities" come to your support here rapidly.

PS. Remember to properly "log-out", clear all browser caches etc. and obtain a new IP address before doing so...?!
Thanks Airship but your advice is not needed. Those who matter know, and those who like yourself, don't matter, don't need to know.
Also, I probably have forgotten more about IP addresses, caches, and so on than you ever knew, and that's not a huge amount in my case.

pax britanica
4th Feb 2014, 19:16
Once again this issue is a great example of how in this country the average citizen is so woefully let down by politicians. I spend a lot of time in France , a country bizarrely disliked by many Americans who seem to have no idea that without France they would be Canadian and the French government manage their interaction with the EU far better than the UK government does.
We seem to find ourselves locked in to all kinds of things due to failed planning by our political and civil service classes while the French -and indeed many others have exemptions or conditional applications avaiilable to them for issues dear to their heart. And of course we need to be nice to the French since it seems their military and ours are now interchangeable. Many other (member) states seem to mange this process far better than we do as well.

Still most people on pprune seem happy if they can blame all our ills on
a) the Frogs
b) the EU
c) Immigration
d) socialists

Going forward do we really want a politician like Farage-a former currency speculator !! or a reincarnation of Maggie T who won a war that she herself started and defeated the unions at the expense of the whole of british heavy and manufacturing industry and the whole social fabric of the country.

On the other hand do we want a leader like Tony B -who essentially committed treason by putting the interests of another state (the USA) above those of his own country for personal gain so it seems and allowed a rather psychotic and paranoid individual (Gordon Brown) to succeed him and cause untold economic damage just to make himself look good by comparison.

So that brings me back to the start -we have only ourselves to blame for electing the leaders we do

Krystal n chips
4th Feb 2014, 19:52
Lon, my apologies for the slip up.

" You exalt me with merit I have no hope of achieving. If I am the worst as you see it, I must be the best. I'll strut proudly today with the honor you have laid upon me.



We can add comic wit to your ability as a political prophet then. I note however, a rather deafening silence and commentary from you with regard to the links and their contents,

I can understand why.


"As a token of my appreciation, I'm going to send a contribution to UKIP in your honor, Krystal. Thanks for your support

The end result of a chicken vindaloo with extra chilli and 6 onion bahji would be a suitable and apt contribution on my behalf.

dead_pan
4th Feb 2014, 20:00
The UKIP gaffe-o-meter is a twitchin' again:

Ukip MEP says British Muslims should sign charter rejecting violence | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/04/ukip-mep-gerard-batten-muslims-sign-charter-rejecting-violence)

Barely a day goes by...

perthsaint
4th Feb 2014, 20:05
Indeed, it seems the kidnapper was/is a Tory

BBC News - Mujeeb Bhutto: Kidnap gang 'boss' was Conservative activist (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26032865)

Two birds with one stone.:ok:

The SSK
4th Feb 2014, 20:58
pax britannica, You Da Man

Still most people on pprune seem happy if they can blame all our ills on
a) the Frogs
b) the EU
c) Immigration
d) socialists

Going forward do we really want a politician like Farage-a former currency speculator !! or a reincarnation of Maggie T who won a war that she herself started and defeated the unions at the expense of the whole of british heavy and manufacturing industry and the whole social fabric of the country.

On the other hand do we want a leader like Tony B -who essentially committed treason by putting the interests of another state (the USA) above those of his own country for personal gain so it seems and allowed a rather psychotic and paranoid individual (Gordon Brown) to succeed him and cause untold economic damage just to make himself look good by comparison.

Since you obviously have more than two brain cells to rub together, can you give some enlightenment to the snorting herd who base all their judgements on something a bloke down the pub told them?

Actually I'm quite fond of Maggie and that kicking she gave to the Argies but the reasons for the fondness are entirely my own

500N
4th Feb 2014, 21:34
Maggie didn't start the war but the war and Maggie got the uk off its arse
And restored a bit of pride, plus gave the argues a good kicking :ok:

BenThere
4th Feb 2014, 21:41
Yes, and Maggie was the first post-war leader to draw the line in the sand and stand by it. The whole prosperity of the Western world from 1980 to today owes a huge thanks to Maggie.

I will always remove my hat and pay respects to her. She was a great one, next to Churchill, who I hold in similar regard.

500N
4th Feb 2014, 21:45
Ben

And Ronnie found out just how much backbone she had :O

BenThere
4th Feb 2014, 21:54
Famously, she counseled Reagan, "Don't go wobbly!"

They were the pair that kept the world free.

Not many remember today, but in 1980 the world's functioning democracies were reduced to a few dozen out of roughly 200 UN members.

If a true history of the world is ever written, with Freedom seen as a value in its writing, Ron and Maggie will be exalted as champions of their era.

The SSK
4th Feb 2014, 22:00
Shit, what do I know? I've only lived and worked in Brussels for 34 years. 34 years ago the EU, or whatever it was called then, was no big deal, especially in air transport.

Then it started to get interested in air transport. It didn't have a mandate, it needed a mandate, it got a mandate. And what did it do with this mandate? It fcuking liberalised, deregulated, turned the whole system upside down. It got rid of 'national' airlines, it got rid (mostly ,but not quite) of subsidies.

It created the conditions that allow Ryanair to exist, that allow Easyjet to exist, that allow BA, Air France, KLM to offer cheap fares to compete with Ryanair and Easyjet. It created the conditions that forced BA, Air France, KLM to cut out the huge amount of inefficiency that pervaded the airline industry.

The airline industry, which is where I work, is not the fun place it used to be where money (not the airlines' own money - they were always broke) sloshed around like there was no tomorrow. It's a challenging place because the EU, having deregulated the market, are not following through on the other stuff they need to address - but it can only be addressed at European level - we need the EU for that.

As a construct, the EU is flawed - I know that, and I doubt any Europhiles would disagree. I could tell you *exactly* what I think is wrong with the EU and I doubt that any of the knee-jerk EU-bashers would even begin to guess.

Anyway, brave JBers, press on regardless. Whether you live in Spain, USA, SEffrica or wherever - register your UK vote (if you have one) as you see fit.

And if you don't have a vote, either in the UK or in the upcoming EP elections, scuttle back to your own hamsterwheel thread please. Two dead premieres and a war from 32 years ago have got not-a-lot to do with this.

dead_pan
5th Feb 2014, 08:13
I could tell you *exactly* what I think is wrong with the EU and I doubt that any of the knee-jerk EU-bashers would even begin to guess.

I've had dealings with various EU government and research institutions in the past and they were no better or worse than those I dealt with here in the UK. Personally I think we're missing the point and way to focussed on the minutiae. The fact of the matter is the world has moved on over the past few decades and we in the UK have to some extent lagged behind, having placed perhaps too much stall in the likes of the City to generate our wealth. Germany, on the other hand, seems to go from strength to strength - odd given they too are 'hindered' by the EU, perhaps more so - why is that?

BTW I reckon one way to utterly transform the EU would be to somehow persuade Russia to join...

vee-tail-1
5th Feb 2014, 08:29
I could tell you *exactly* what I think is wrong with the EU and I doubt that any of the knee-jerk EU-bashers would even begin to guess.

Germany, on the other hand, seems to go from strength to strength - odd given they too are 'hindered' by the EU, perhaps more so - why is that?

Tell us what you know ... then we and others might have an idea how to fix it.

dead_pan
5th Feb 2014, 08:55
Where to start? The thing is we sort of do the right things but then we're too focussed on the short-term. For example, a mate of mine runs a successful venture capital business which helps high tech start-ups emanating from UK universities. They do good stuff in terms of providing seed finance, putting in place experienced management etc. But, being a finance-backed operation, they've got a limited time horizon (5 years), after which they're expected to exit with a tidy profit and move on. As a consequence their failure rate is pretty high - 90% of businesses get dropped. Many of these business are viable but, being starved of finance at such an important stage, fall by the way-side.

Incidentally I saw all the press coverage about Fartbook's 10th anniversary yesterday. Why couldn't someone in the UK have come up with such an idea (or an eBay/Twatter/Amazon)? We seem to be increasingly missing the boat with all these opportunities.

dead_pan
5th Feb 2014, 08:58
Another thought - ask your average bright, switched-on Brit uni graduate what would be their career of choice? I'll wager you would be hard pressed to find any which would opt for science or engineering.

vee-tail-1
5th Feb 2014, 09:36
I'll wager you would be hard pressed to find any which would opt for science or engineering.

I guess that's one reason for Germany's success ... they value engineers and scientists, unlike the UK. :(

Still the UK gov is trying to do something about it:
Students going onto sixth form and A levels can qualify for up to £2000 grant money. If they achieve A or A* in their GCSE science exams ... and go on to study science or engineering at college.

Also Proff Brian Cox is making science sexy for quite a few kids. We need more role models like him in the UK. :ok: