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alisoncc
2nd Feb 2014, 21:15
I understand the Royal Australian Navy will be placing adverts in the media for "Navigators who can actually navigate". I would suspect that more than a few here could fill the bill.

This follows on from (quote from The Australian) "PRELIMINARY investigations are believed to have found that Royal Australian Navy ships have breached Indonesian territorial waters on five occasions because of navigation errors".

Surely these guys know how to switch the GPS on and read charts? Unless they were using Apple's IMap app, and it told them to turn right at the next roundabout. How can supposedly trained people actually get lost nowadays?

Low Flier
2nd Feb 2014, 21:18
Surely these guys know how to switch the GPS on and read charts?

I suspect they'd do better to switch the GPS off and read the feckin charts!

500N
2nd Feb 2014, 21:23
Probably comes back to the intial training and the standards required to pass ?

In only did Nav at sea for small boats but the WO2 made sure everyone knew
what they were doing and then made anyone holding rank, especially Officers get a higher standard.

And that was with a Compass, chart, protractor and watch.
GPS's had only just started coming in.

Is anyone left in the services that could teach it now ?

BenThere
2nd Feb 2014, 21:24
I'm afraid actual navigation by the stars, with a sextant, has been a casualty of GPS.

The math, triangulation, and cosmic beauty of celestial navigation may be preserved by purists and scholars, most likely Brits, but the science and technology available today is so much better than they could ever do.

alisoncc
2nd Feb 2014, 21:24
Reckon they started going downhill when Navs stopped using Port and Starboard. Now it's all Left and Right, with no one specifying whether looking for'ard or to the stern. Or in aviation terminology - the Sharp end of the Blunt end.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
2nd Feb 2014, 21:27
What?

Is there actually a large organisation on the planet which is prepared to invest in genuine quality, not just the ability to pass tests?

Will they treat us with any respect? - Aye,there's the rub. That's why most of us left in the first place!

500N
2nd Feb 2014, 21:30
alison

Reckon they started going downhill when Navs stopped using Port and Starboard. Now it's all Left and Right, "

:rolleyes:

When did that happen ?


Standards are slipping, is it too much to ask people to learn Port and Starboard ?

parabellum
2nd Feb 2014, 21:31
Don't think there is the slightest chance that the RAN have been 'lost' or even 'temporarily unaware of their position'. I think the whole thing is an elaborate sham to save Indonesian 'face' but is actually approved behind the scenes and it gave the Indonesians the excuse they needed to move a few patrol boats further south, exactly what the RAN wanted!

Windy Militant
2nd Feb 2014, 22:27
Reckon they started going downhill when Navs stopped using Port and Starboard. Now it's all Left and Right, "


What they don't use "Your side, my side" :\

Caboclo
2nd Feb 2014, 22:34
USAF required C-130 Navs to learn celestial nav as recently as the late '90s. Don't know if they still do.

DX Wombat
2nd Feb 2014, 22:36
The Chuckle Brothers - To You To Me - YouTube

sidevalve
2nd Feb 2014, 22:48
The math, triangulation, and cosmic beauty of celestial navigation
Never heard a better description of astro..:D

rh200
2nd Feb 2014, 23:15
Standards are slipping, is it too much to ask people to learn Port and Starboard ?

Yep new world order, standards, KISS.:{

You think thats a pain, keep mindful of the pain it is when trying to tell dumb f$#%s to do something with excavators, when the bottom end is pointing a different direction to the top end, or the engines are in backwards.:ugh::ugh:

Airey Belvoir
2nd Feb 2014, 23:19
Navies have been using the term "right" and "left" ever since aviation made its presence felt on the sea.


In naval aviation port and starboard are used for the ship itself. Left and right are used for the aeroplane to avoid confusion over positioning.


In any event I'm not entirely sure that the breaching of international borders was an "accident" - particularly given the policy of turning back and towing boats towards Indonesia.

500N
2nd Feb 2014, 23:22
KISS

I can't think of an easier KISS principle than Port and Starboard.

Ans yes, I always had a problem remembering them so just
tied them up with Left being the same number of letters as Port.

It could be dangerous to use left and right in a boat. As a Coxswain,
I always had my hand on the tiller and faced forwards, some of the
others in the boat always faced backwards !


Airey
Thanks for the clarification.

ExSp33db1rd
2nd Feb 2014, 23:26
.........but the science and technology available today is so much better than they could ever do.

Until there's a power failure, or they switch off the satellites !

flywatcher
3rd Feb 2014, 02:24
I was always taught "port red left can two", ie port is red, on the left, it is a can bouy and two blasts on the whistle when turning that way. Works for me.

500N
3rd Feb 2014, 02:31
I was taught that as well, mainly so we knew what other boats / ships were doing.

On our little Zodiacs / RIB's, being military we didn't have to operate with lights at night. You just made sure you stayed well out of the way of others as they couldn't see you, even on Radar.

Saratogapp
3rd Feb 2014, 04:14
How about: a "little red port left" and in avspeak I learned "red-right-run".....

herman the crab
3rd Feb 2014, 06:01
Provided you are in the correct bouyage region ;)

HTC

airship
3rd Feb 2014, 14:26
alisoncc, Shirley, I doubt that Australia has any lack of competent navigators (whether or not they want to serve in the Navy is another subject). Unless I'm much mistaken, your question has more to do with Australia's tendencies to blame "navigational errors" on what are more accurately described as "public policy errors", especially with regard to Australia's current policies vis-a-vis:

1) Immigration (especially the "illegal" kind) and refugees arriving by sea, and treatment thereof.

2) Offshore oil & gas (especially in the waters between PNG, Timor, Indonesia and Australia) resources, and defence of Australia's national interests thereof.

Presumably, Ozzie navigators can only say when their own vessels are "on-off course". And obviously unqualified to comment on Australian government policies...

tony draper
3rd Feb 2014, 14:47
Ah but int olden days to turn to Starboard the order was 'Port your Helm' :rolleyes:

BenThere
3rd Feb 2014, 16:25
Conceded, wetbehindear, a man who knows his stars has a leg up.

Romance is naturally conducted at night, and a starry sky is the best backdrop.

tony draper
3rd Feb 2014, 16:39
Only if you like her on top.:rolleyes:

Romeo Oscar Golf
3rd Feb 2014, 18:43
Is there another way?:oh:

500N
3rd Feb 2014, 18:48
Yes, that way you can both look at the same set of stars without straining your neck :rolleyes:

angels
3rd Feb 2014, 19:58
Forgive me, I could look this up, but I thought I would open myself to ridicule instead.

Isn't the GPS system run by the U.S. military? IE they can switch it off when they like? If my supposition is wrong, aren't we a hostage to fortune to sunspots and the like? Are we relying too much on technology?

As a small example of how microchips run our life, I went into Homebase a while back and they wouldn't serve me as the computer that ran the tills was down. I offered them the correct amount in cash for what I wanted but they couldn't handle cash without the till being opened -- which it couldn't because the computer said no.

Pathetic reliance on technology, but not as dangerous as if GPS went down.

500N
3rd Feb 2014, 20:11
I think technically the US could switch it off but it might cause more problems for them as much as anyone else.

Re paying cash, a farmer in Aus told me to always carry cash in Australia, especially out "bush". He filled up with petrol one day, went into pay and the people waiting was long. He had cash and paid and the lady said, you must be from the bush !

Did you walk out or wait for the till ?

If you tender the correct money in cash, is that considered paying ?

ExSp33db1rd
3rd Feb 2014, 22:39
......but they couldn't handle cash without the till being opened -- which it couldn't because the computer said no.
Even a long, long, time ago, when Bill Gates was but a gleam in someones' eye, and no one could even spell 'digital', I was a crew member in New York when our flight was cancelled and we were told to go back to UK as passengers, but as we weren't planned to we had no tickets, and were told to pick them up at the check-in counter on departure.

At the airport the check-in girl apologised that maybe we would miss our flight because the ticket printer had failed and she couldn't produce tickets.

The Flight Engineer passed her his pen.
( and yes, she still could write instead of just pushing txt buttons ! )

World's Gone Mad.

500N
3rd Feb 2014, 22:42
Hand written airline tickets.
I used to fly on those as a teenager from UK to Aus and return.

Pappa Smurf
3rd Feb 2014, 23:33
When ever something happens the blame filters down the chain,this time the navigator.
Someone has to get the pineapples.
That's why companies have all these work procedures these days.
The Navigator should have told the Captain to go to hell when ordered to go "closer",but he didn't so hes to blame.Probably a few between the Capt and Nav,so it would be the usual pass the buck.
Worked for a company that someone had to get the pineapple.
Didn't go down to well when over the radio I told everyone my holiday to QLD was partly due to replenish the supplies of the fast depleting pineapples.

herkNav
10th Feb 2014, 00:24
A knew a guy who claimed to be in the last class of navs who learned celestial - believe he weant through sometime around 2003.

India Four Two
10th Feb 2014, 15:06
Provided you are in the correct bouyage region http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

HTC, absolutely. When I was sailing in Texas, it was "Red, Right, Returning". Not a bottle of port to be seen!


BenThere,
Yes, the "cosmic beauty".

On Saturday night, we had a rare cloudless evening here in Saigon and I was visiting a neighbour's house in the suburbs, where there was less light pollution.

I was showing Orion to a four-year old and showing how his belt pointed to his dog, and ahead of the dog, the horns of the bull they were chasing. She was entranced.