View Full Version : Market Forces

2nd Feb 2014, 08:18
Over on another PPRuNe forum there's a debate about switching to a new and expensive operating system.

On the one hand we have the old fuddy-duddy stick-in-the muds who say their present OS is perfectly adequate and does what they want. On the other hand, we have the "it's new therefore it must be better" crowd who are aghast that anyone would be satisfied with something produced ten years ago, even though the new product is designed to do exactly the same thing the old one does as far as most people will use it.

It's as if Ford tried to sell a Popular with a shiny new body covering the old mechanicals.

Whatever happened to market forces ? Used to be someone made something good, word of it spread, people bought it, and judging by sales it was a success. These days we are told by manufacturers a product is good, with implications that we should get out and buy it. It's not just advertising - it's brain-washing.

2nd Feb 2014, 08:34

"Used to be someone made something good, word of it spread, people bought it, and judging by sales it was a success."

Correct, but you still have the life cycle of a product which generally goes,
Introduction, Growth (if product any good), maturity, decline.

ON TOP of that, you then have the people factor.
First up, the "innovators and technology enthusiasts" - the first ones to use it,
then you have the "early adopters, visionaries". Both of these groups want technology and performance.
After these two, you have a gap in the product cycle that the product has to jump to get to the next group, the "early majority" (rising sales), then the "late majority" (past the peak of sales), then the "laggards, skeptics".

Now, in relation to your original post, regardless of market forces, you still have these groups and you have some of the first two groups and the last two groups in disagreement.

Re "These days we are told by manufacturers a product is good"
But these days a fair few people get suggestions as what to buy not from manufacturers but from forums, on line reviews by users, googling etc.

Just my HO.

I am in the "late majority conservatives" group. I very rarely buy the first of anything, waiting until bugs are ironed out. I also tend to use "old computers" because they still do what I want until it becomes so slow it holds me up or becomes incompatible - like now where I can't upgrade my flash player anymore.

2nd Feb 2014, 08:44
Perfectly happy with my OS, whatever it is - Windows something.

I note Mr. Ford's (not Rob) Model T. First production model produced on August 12, 1908 and on May 26 1927 the 15 millionth unit rolled off the line.

I also never buy the first model of anything - made that mistake with one motorcycle. I also never take anything to buy from the front of a shelf or the top of a stack.

2nd Feb 2014, 09:52
It's as if Ford tried to sell a Popular with a shiny new body covering the old mechanicals.Wasn't that called a Mark 1 Cortina?

2nd Feb 2014, 10:06
Also the same trick used by Morris with the Marina using Morris Minor underpinnings.

2nd Feb 2014, 10:10
Hi, over a year ago, at the same time the French Gendarmerie did it, I moved all my pcs from MS to Ubuntu and I am so much happier... I believe the UK government is contemplating doing the same, saving millions in the process. In fact, I went at that time from spending 42 per month on smart phone contract to 22 per YEAR on pay as you go!!! No more Gmail, Chrome, Amazon, Faecesbook, Microsoft, Yahoo etc... just a simple GMX account for emails and what a difference it made to my everyday life......

2nd Feb 2014, 10:16
I've always said that Microsoft just keep building mountains for Windoze users to climb.

2nd Feb 2014, 10:18
Agree, and with a leg rope attached so they find it hard to get away.

2nd Feb 2014, 10:40
I am currently researching some aspects of advertising back to the 1840's. It's always been like this. At least it is harder for the advertisers to include direct factual lies these days.

Lon More
2nd Feb 2014, 11:04
the same trick used by Morris with the Marina using Morris Minor underpinnings.

They fooled the market once, then came back and tried it again with the Allagro.

Win 8 is a :mad:ing dsaster. Read somewhere else that Microsoft plan to bury it ASAP and rush out Windows 9

2nd Feb 2014, 11:11
I am currently researching some aspects of advertising back to the 1840's.

Worcestershire sauce - brain tonic, hair tonic, stomache tonic, pour it on your Windows 8 computer to smooth out the lumps :E.

The Foods of England - Worcester (or Worcestershire) Sauce (http://www.foodsofengland.co.uk/worcesterorworcestershiresauce.htm)

Lon More
2nd Feb 2014, 11:29
Is this misleading?


wear the fox hat.

Or this?


Anything went then

2nd Feb 2014, 11:52
Lets relate this to Internet Browsers.

99% of the time, upgrading is ALWAYS better. Especially if you use Internet Explorer, because they are the slowest when it comes to implementing new standards.

6% of our customers (in germany) still use Internet Explorer 9, despite it being 6ish years old (probably because its standard on XP). The current website i designed uses some features not supported by IE9, and in this particular case, its not worth it to do an extra website for those people who refuse updates. I pop a little warning politely letting them know of their "mistake".

My bro actually usues Internet Explorer 8, because some kind of software he has doesn't work on the new browsers. beats me.

I wish we'd all just have one browser to deal with. Rageover ;-)

2nd Feb 2014, 12:44
I didn't know beavers wore hats.

Windy Militant
2nd Feb 2014, 13:16
99% of the time, upgrading is ALWAYS better.

Work For Micro squash do we. :p
One reason that people do not upgrade is because they have kit that does not work on the new system. The research community is one area where this happens a lot. Are you going to trade in a perfectly good piece of kit costing between 50k and a 100k because your 1500 PC is being declared obsolete?
Do you have that much loose change rattling about in your pocket?
I also find it extremely annoying when the system decides that the microsquash drivers are far better for running our high speed cameras than the dedicated drivers supplied by the manufacturer and have to spend days buggering about to get the system to work again. This happens even when you've disabled the automatic updates. :mad:
Most PC's are now aimed at the twattering classes and are becoming a real pain for those of us that use them just for work. :ugh:
edited to add that I'm going back to my Otis King Tubular Slide rule, at least I know that'll work when I need it!:ok:

2nd Feb 2014, 13:39
Win 8 is a ing dsaster. Read somewhere else that Microsoft plan to bury it ASAP and rush out Windows 9

Given their experience with Windows Vista, well they might. They replaced a perfectly functional Windows XP with that triply f:mad:d abortion, then spent three years trying to get it to work properly. I called down great curses on the head of Bill Gates and hoped he contacted an extremely painful sexually transmitted disease, preferably from the woman running Hewlett-Packard at the time of its introduction. Windows 7 is what Vista should have been and I heard the head of the Canadian division of MS admit as much. Then not content to leave well enough alone they introduce Windows 8, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the cnuts running the show have learned absolutely nothing from past experience. Win8 was designed for tablet type, touch screen computers, so wtf are they doing flogging it on non-touch screen applications?

2nd Feb 2014, 13:41
Work For Micro squash do we.

oh hell nawww

Personally i'm a chrome man ;-)

I understand the implications of not wanting ot upgrade.. hence the 99% :-) (see example i stated about my bro). ** edit: and even my bro uses Firefox for his everyday browsing needs. Still.. 6% of the population use IE9... and i bet not even 1% of them have some 50-100k system they rely on ;-)

MS just pisses me off by being the last on the block to introduce the new features (specifically CSS3).

2nd Feb 2014, 14:59
I wish we'd all just have one browser to deal with.

No, just all browsers and some aspects of operating systems come to that (networks?) stick to the published open standards and then the interoperability issues largely vanish!

Let's face it, our industry is pretty good on sticking to standards and it mostly works. e.g. ARINC 429 is ARINC 429 whoever the vendor, likewise AFDX. The Redmond lot however deliberately implement non-standard ways of doing things to lock the punters in.

Micr$oft have got away with murder in that respect and continue so to do - I avoid their products whenever I can but I'm not sure that makes them evil, just a failure of 'market forces' that acts in their favour coupled with large corporations falling for the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt) spread by them regarding mixing in a non-Microsoft product?

Linux could be a great contender to knock them off their perch but, unfortunately, the proponents of that are (in my view/experience) so determined to keep it 'geeky' I doubt it ever will.

2nd Feb 2014, 15:43
I predict that MS will become much like General Motors did in the US, going from one of the most desirable and profitable companies to nearly nothing, and for much the same reasons. Mac will follow along too as they also have the same basic flaw involved. Once upon a time, marketing meant finding what the people wanted and providing that. Now the concept has changed to finding a way to sell what you want by giving the people what you want them to have, not what they want. GM failed to see that the future of cars wasn't where they were aiming, believing that they were so strong that they could sell the masses on their ideas, but the Asian car makers saw where the market was going and aimed differently. That's why they are still reasonably profitable while GM isn't.

Unless you give the people what they want you're headed for failure because on seeing the gaps you leave unfilled growing, somebody or something else will come along and fill them and take that market away from you.

It's more important that you set the correct goals than it is how much you put into achieving them, for progress in the right direction can go slowly and still succeed while progress in the wrong direction just keeps making everything worse until it kills you.

Lon More
2nd Feb 2014, 16:01
GF decided to look at her mail. Somehow she managed to sidesweve the firewall and trashed the whole system
I still can't find out what she did but I ended up last week buying Win 8 because all my back ups, passwords, access codes had disappeared.
Still having problems with IE, can't find my printers, or the rest of my network, and if I try I-tunes to cheer me up, that's all gone west.
Not a happy bunny and not getting any solace from her. Her only comment, "Glad I didn't open that at home." http://face-and-emotion.com/dataface/emotion/media/SteamedUp.gif

2nd Feb 2014, 16:02
The problem is, desktop operating systems were pretty much done in the XP era, but Microsoft have huge numbers of developers and designers who need something to do. So they keep fiddling, and produce something different but no better (or, in the case of Windows 8, actually worse).

As for 'market forces', I know quite a few people who've looked at Windows 8, and decided to buy a Mac next time. Apple are sensible enough to keep their tablet/phone and desktop operating systems separate.

2nd Feb 2014, 16:03
Did she answer an e-mail from "Katherine Richardson" I wonder ? "Click here to read my message" ?

I got one of those today, 'propertied' it and it looked suspicious so I deleted it immediately. Anyway, her name didn't ring a bell.....

(Pause for a themed-joke, over on the Friday Jokes thread)

2nd Feb 2014, 16:42
Speaking of market forces and GM here's a 1971 Dodge Challenger RT, 426 Hemi. At the time we called this a "sleeper".

Now it should be called a Fiat - Chrysler NV Challenger.

Points for the film...http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f9/1e/99/f91e99b216a0fac8515fdc603ad39995.jpg

G&T ice n slice
2nd Feb 2014, 16:49

no, maybe not..

2nd Feb 2014, 16:49
I am not a fan of American cars but this one is so beautiful I creamed my jeans in excitement.....

2nd Feb 2014, 17:24
Lon More a bit late now but it might have been worth trying a 'system restore' to a previous time before that e-mail was opened.

Lon More
2nd Feb 2014, 17:28
it might have been worth trying a 'system restore'

tried that, but the whole system was trashed. Maybe if I'd taken it to a real expert, but that would be like asking directionss on a journey.

Lon More
2nd Feb 2014, 17:31
there were "sleepers" in the UK as well. Dad had a Cortina Savage (http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/car_info_ford_cortina_mk2_savage.htm) until I broke it

2nd Feb 2014, 18:34
The GM analogy is a good one .. The industry will mature quickly, the majority of people will opt for cheap simple products that do what they say on the tin.. You will still have the Ferrari market for those who love hi end performance. A d of course the robust solid four wheel drive stuff for those who need them for work

2nd Feb 2014, 23:41
The problem at present in the IT world, is the major, developing diversion, from desktops to mobile devices for internet communication.
MS and many others see mobile devices such as smartphones and tablets taking over from desktops and making desktops obsolete.

I'm one of the many billions who still like, still use, and still want, a desktop - with its big screen, its separate, comprehensive keyboard and its other extensive capabilities. You can't fit all that into a tablet or a smartphone, and that's where the problem lies. I have a laptop for travelling, and that works fine for me.

MS panicked when they saw hundreds of millions of people flocking to touch screen devices such as smartphones and tablets, and thought they'd better get on the bandwagon - thus Windoze 8.

Windoze 8 is a horse invented by a committee and it has more ungainliness than a camel, and I for one, won't be departing from Windoze 7 and a desktop in the foreseeable future, until something decidedly and markedly superior comes along.

2nd Feb 2014, 23:46
one track


I have been using an ipad at my GF's, wireless, all good but not being able to
plus a keyboard in is a PITA (I believe I can buy a wireless one) or have the facility to plus things like USB's in to off load pics etc. I also find a mouse
more accurate for some work.

Not sure what I will buy to replace the desktop but likely a laptop.