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OFSO
29th Jan 2014, 17:28
Is anyone else amazed at how the suggestion that water cannon are to be purchased and used to quell civil disorder in the UK (or is it just in London ?) has triggered howls of rage from the lefties at "infringement of demonstrators rights" at how "they would just make matters worse" and the "possibilities of causing serious injuries".

Bring this back !

The Riot Act
An English law, enacted in 1715, providing that if 12 or more people unlawfully assemble and disturb the public peace, they must disperse upon proclamation or be considered guilty of felony.

The official Riot Act was enacted by Parliament in 1715 to discourage unlawful assembly and civic turbulence, although the first recorded use of the term Riot Act to refer to this legislation does not appear until 1731. The act provided that if 12 or more people gathered unlawfully or for purposes of disturbing the peace, a portion of the Riot Act would be read to them, and if the assembled did not disperse by one hour after this reading, they would be guilty of felony. The Riot Act was not repealed until 1973.

G-CPTN
29th Jan 2014, 17:41
The Hexham Riot: Massacre in the Market Place (http://www.advancedtaxis.com/articles/hexham/the-hexham-riot/)

The Hexham Riot of 9th March 1761 resulted in the deaths of over 50 men and women, with dozens more wounded.
The Hexham Riot involved ordinary folk from villages and communities throughout Tynedale, who marched to Hexham on that fateful day to protest against balloting to select men for service in the County Militia.
The introduction of the Militia Act in 1757 generated some resistance, but agitation had become more organised by the time of the 1761 round of balloting.
In Durham and Northumberland, at Gateshead, Morpeth, Belford and elsewhere, crowds armed with improvised weapons threatened the magistrates when they gathered to conduct the ballot. In each case, the ballot was abandoned and the parish lists were burned by the rioters. At Hexham, the authorities were determined to enforce the ballot.
The magistrates called for the assistance of 240 men of the North Yorkshire Militia, who were stationed at that time at Newcastle. These men were coming to the end of their three years’ service in the militia. Their backgrounds as craftsmen and agricultural workers in rural communities would have been very similar to those of the agitators they were to face. Some 5,000 protestors marched into Hexham from the surrounding district. The militia were drawn up in Hexham Market Place, in front of the Sessions Hall (now known as the Moot Hall (http://www.advancedtaxis.com/articles/hexham/the-moot-hall/)) where the magistrates were to conduct the ballot.
For several hours, the angry crowd faced the nervous militia soldiers. Eventually, the situation became so tense that the Riot Act was read and the protestors were ordered to disperse.
This served to make matters worse and two shots were fired out of the crowd. An officer who was attempting to calm the situation was fatally wounded and a militia soldier fell dead. The militia returned fire, killing some 20 of the rioters on the spot. Others died later of their wounds and over 300 were injured.
The protest had failed and balloting for the militia continued throughout the country.
The affair became known as the “Hexham Massacre” or “Bloody Monday” and the North Yorkshire Militia gained the notorious nickname the “Hexham Butchers“.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2014, 17:48
Well, if the lefties seem to be running around all half-crazed at the idea of the use of water cannons they should stop and take pause because it could be much worse. There are other types of cannon which could be used for crowd dispersal.

Battery stand by.... battery FIRE!

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m109a6.jpg

11Fan
29th Jan 2014, 17:56
Drop 50, Fire for Effect.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2014, 18:02
11Fan:

A former Cav member knows FO lingo, how's that? :}:E:eek:

Mr Chips
29th Jan 2014, 18:06
why"Fire for effect"? Sounds like "fire to show off"

Genuine question....

dead_pan
29th Jan 2014, 18:12
Do you ever not fire for effect?

11Fan
29th Jan 2014, 18:12
See if I can beat RG in here.

When you are a forward lookout, calling in artillery fire, they send a round in, you tell them how far they are off. When they get close, you give them the final command of how far they are off and when you say "fire for effect", it means "let em have it".

11Fan
29th Jan 2014, 18:14
A former Cav member knows FO lingo, how's that?

Part Time 11Delta baby. 11Bravo was my Primary MOS though.

Scout's Out

dead_pan
29th Jan 2014, 18:15
Water Cannon

Maybe its a cunning plan to merge the roles of the police, fire brigade and Environment Agency? I'm sure the people living on the Somerset plain would welcome any help with regard to getting rid of all that accursed floodwater.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2014, 18:16
You got it 11Fan. Sure you weren't a Red Leg at one time?!!!

A Forward Observer will walk the rounds onto a target. Within a very short period of time of course because we wouldn't want the target to hightail it.

Once the FO feels he can get "steel on the target" he'll call for a fire for effect.

I had forgotten 11Fan. 11B, a Real Soldier's MOS!!! :}

Ranger out!

dead_pan
29th Jan 2014, 18:19
When you are a forward lookout, calling in artillery fire, they send a round in, you tell them how far they are off.

Ahh, I see, so its a sort of ranging shot, like "chaps, we've got a bit of trade for you and wondering if you'd like to make an opening offer"

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2014, 18:22
dead_pan:

Yes, a ranging shot. A bit of trivia for ya. US Army Rangers started out many moons ago. Matter of fact, before the little spat between the UK and the colonies. The original Rangers were used for "ranging" in the fields and for "ranging" cannon ball fire against their adversaries, mostly Injuns. :}

AtomKraft
29th Jan 2014, 18:26
'Shot, over'. 'Shot, out'.

'Splash, over'. 'Splash, out'.

So British.;)

dead_pan
29th Jan 2014, 18:28
Interesting - how did they communicate with the arty, telegram or something a little more immediate like semaphore?

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2014, 18:52
AtomKraft:

Back in my field artillery days as a Red Leg our FO's used the same terminology.

dead_pan:

Not sure how the Rangers of yore communicated with the cannons however I'd surmise that said cannons were never too far in the rear - unlike modern day artillery where pieces like the 8" howitzer can be 10 miles and more away - and remained in sight of the "ranging scouts."

500N
29th Jan 2014, 19:00
RGB was never much good at Arty, hence his move to Infantry.

His went like this
"'Shot, over'. 'Shot, out'.

"It fcking Dropped short you idiot"

So American,http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

:p

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2014, 19:08
Nope, 500N, you got that wrong. See, in the Artillery Corp - the self-propelled variety - you ride into combat. You ride into field maneuvers and you ride, and ride and ride all damn day, stopping once in awhile to unleash a volley or two.
What fun is that? I'd rather walk. Which is why I was a straight-leg infantryman. (Well, aside from my 1 year stint with the 4th Infantry Division - Mechanized, that is.)

500N
29th Jan 2014, 19:14
"Which is why I was a straight-leg infantryman."

You were !

Until some Cuban or Russian shot you in the leg for waving them around from under a Pink Tutu, now you are a bent leg infantryman !

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2014, 19:29
Wasn't a Russian, 500N. Was undoubtedly a Cuban. Was being the key word here!

Burnie5204
29th Jan 2014, 19:40
On the subject of the OP the lefties have casually glossed over that the Met had 2 for years (bought in '86 according to my source) which sat it a garage unused, undeployed and rotted away so this isn't truly new purchase.

They didnt replace them at End of Life as they had been unused. And then the 'Student Protests' and London Riots came along.

lomapaseo
29th Jan 2014, 21:17
This served to make matters worse and two shots were fired out of the crowd. An officer who was attempting to calm the situation was fatally wounded and a militia soldier fell dead. The militia returned fire, killing some 20 of the rioters on the spot. Others died later of their wounds and over 300 were injured. \

I thought the UK didn't permit the public to have guns.

tony draper
29th Jan 2014, 21:27
Up until the first world war anyone with necessary cash could walk into any gun shop and buy as many guns as he or indeed she wanted Mr Lomapaseo.
:)
I personally think fifty mounted Dragoons with razor sharp sabers drawn charging into a crowd of rioting peasantry much more effective than water cannon.
:uhoh:

Tankertrashnav
29th Jan 2014, 22:57
Actually water cannon are currently authorised for use in the UK, but the OP, like 90% of the population, forgets that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and water cannon have been authorised there for some time.

I understand that among Chief Constables on the mainland there is little appetite for the use of these, as they can be difficult to deploy usefully. In any case would our police be any more adept in their use as they are in the use of firearms?

Police officer accidentally shoots himself in leg | London - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2014-01-24/police-officer-accidentially-shoots-himself-in-leg/)

500N
29th Jan 2014, 23:05
"I personally think fifty mounted Dragoons with razor sharp sabers drawn charging into a crowd of rioting peasantry much more effective than water cannon."

50 Soldiers in a line with the Command "Fix Bayonets" would
also put the shivers up rioters, especially when they charge.

Which was the British Army unit in Iraq that fixed bayonets
and charged some insurgents, completely routing them ?

2005 or something like that.

Krystal n chips
30th Jan 2014, 04:33
500 N

A little piece of less than glorious history for you.

History of The Peterloo Massacre (http://www.peterloomassacre.org/history.html)

Happy now ?

500N
30th Jan 2014, 04:38
"Happy now ?"

Was I unhappy ?
Interesting, had never heard of that before.


In, out, on guard !
(That's what you do with a bayonet on the end of a rifle)

Now I'm happy :O

Erwin Schroedinger
30th Jan 2014, 06:49
Is anyone else amazed at how the suggestion that water cannon are to be purchased and used to quell civil disorder in the UK

I'm delighted. Feed the Government through the hoses and direct the flow at the nearest drain (or, more appropriately, sewer). They're all so wet they'd flow beautifully.

No more disorder.

Blacksheep
30th Jan 2014, 07:23
Personally, when I witnessed the goings-on in Tottenham High Street on live TV, I was astounded by the lack of water cannon, tear gas and rubber bullets. Policemen were standing around watching while businesses blazed and people in the flats above scrambled for safety, leaving their entire possessions behind in the flames. During my time serving Her Majesty my training in riot suppression included the use of live ammunition and when it would be justified. In the London riots, with innocent lives being clearly in jeopardy, I believe that the use of live ammunition on arsonists would have been justified.

Burnie5204
30th Jan 2014, 07:34
Lethal Firearms, Baton Rounds/AEP/'Rubber Bullets' and Water Cannon are all still valid, Home Office approved, Public Order Tactics.

Only problem is that they require approval from the Gold Commander and they would have to put their neck and cojones on the political chopping block, what with the inevitable media slating that would happen (though that will happen regardless of which decision they took), and be the first commander on the mainland to approve their use in a live situation (they will have happily approved them in training situations though...)

vee-tail-1
30th Jan 2014, 09:04
Why do most here assume the water cannon and other assorted riot control devices will be used only on lefties? :ouch:

Middle class organisations like "38 Degrees" , 38 Degrees | people. power. change. (http://www.38degrees.org.uk)
and "Unlock Democracy" unlockdemocracy.org.uk are becoming increasingly 'upset' by this and the previous government.

There is the real possibility that (just like the Iraq war protests) the British middle class will take to the streets and might not go home for tea as they did in 2003, :uhoh:

rgbrock1
30th Jan 2014, 12:16
500N wrote

Which was the British Army unit in Iraq that fixed bayonets
and charged some insurgents, completely routing them ?

Had not heard of that. Are you sure you're not mistaking this for the Northern Alliance and U.S. Special Forces horseback-mounted cavalry charge outside Mazari-Sharif during the opening stages of the Afghan war where the Taliban and Al-Qaeda were not only routed but went scurrying off into the hills, like little girls, with N.A. and S.F. in hot, galloping, pursuit? (Including Northern Alliance members with swords drawn!)

Member of "Task Force Dagger":

http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/operations/sof-afghanistan/cct-horseback.jpg

500N
30th Jan 2014, 12:28
RGB

No, I looked it up after I wrote that. It was those Mad Scotsmen, the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders Regiment.

As I said, nothing like the "click" of Bayonets being attached to send
a shiver up someone's spine.

WITH BAYONETS ATTACHED, THEY FINISHED OFF THE ENEMY WHO HAD NOT RUN AWAY..

May 21 2004

SCOTS TELL OF CHARGE

By Keith Mcleod And Michael Christie

SCOTS soldiers last night told how they launched a bayonet charge on Iraqi militiamen after hours of battle.

An Army insider last night gave the Record an insight into the bravery of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.They were forced to use 'cold steel' as supplies of ammunition ran low. Many of the militiamen turned and fled but the close-quarters fighting left around 20 rebels dead.

Thirty-five of Shia Moslem cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's followers died and two British troops were injured during the three-hour battle. A senior Argylls officer said last night: 'After a fierce fight and with small amounts of ammo left, they put in a conventional left-flanking attack.

'With bayonets attached, they finished off the enemy who had not run off.'
It was the first time in 22 years the Army had used bayonets in action.

The last came when the Scots Guards stormed Argentinian positions during the Falklands War.

The battle developed following a distress call from a group of eight British soldiers last Friday.

The troops under the command of Major Adam Griffiths were surrounded on the notorious Route Six highway while en route to Camp Abu Naji in southern Iraq. Their LandRovers were riddled with bullets and they came under attack from rocket launchers and grenades.

But as a 30-strong platoon of Argylls responded to the SOS, the militia were getting reinforcements. The men from the Stirlingshire-based regiment were forced to dig in and shoot back. The Argylls were aided by a detachment of the Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment, who arrived at the scene in armoured Warrior vehicles.

More than 150 Iraqis were said to be involved in last week's battle. Military sources say the militiamen miscalculated the response from the original group of soldiers.

Last night, a source said: 'Morale is very good following this serious incident.
'The insurgents have been laying ambushes on Route Six one of the main roads between Basra and Baghdad for some time. 'Previously, the response from small British groups has been drive on. These militiamen were obviously expecting this to happen again.

'The enemy have been picking their targets, mainly two LandRovers with six to eight soldiers on board. With those odds, it is sometimes best to keep on going, but the attack was so sustained, the LandRovers stopped and returned fire.
'We now hope that these attacks on Route Six will stop, but we are taking nothing for granted.' Intelligence gathered since the bayonet charge suggests it shocked the militia fighters, who expected the outnumbered Scots to flee.

The source added: 'The injuries received by our troops were shrapnel to the hand and shrapnel to the groin. Both of these casualties were as a result of rocket-propelled grenades fired at them. 'Both the injured guys are back with their units and doing fine.'

The Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment arrived on the scene in 37ton Warriors just as the Scots' ammo was getting low. They found many Iraqi militia fleeing the bayonet charge. Around 20 Iraqis who chose to stand and fight were killed by the troops of both regiments.

Got to like this description from one of the guys.
"
“I wanted to put the fear of God into the enemy. I could see some dead bodies and eight blokes, some scrambling for their weapons. I’ve never seen such a look of fear in anyone’s eyes before. I’m over six feet; I was covered in sweat, angry, red in the face, charging in with a bayonet and screaming my head off. You would be scared, too.”
Corporal Brian Wood
Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment


Not a bad little effort at all. I must admit, bayoneting someone with an
SA80 does put you a bit close to the enemy whereas at least with the
SLR and bayonet, you had a pretty long reach as you thrust it forwards.

rgbrock1
30th Jan 2014, 12:32
Wow 500N, I was not aware of that action. Up close and personal they were!
Kudos to the Scots. :ok:

OFSO
30th Jan 2014, 12:54
I thought the UK didn't permit the public to have guns.

Well and good, there are many people who think that because this statement is more-or-less true, the result will be that the public don't have guns. Wrong !

tony draper
30th Jan 2014, 13:46
The old Martini Henry Bayonet was the biz, four foot long,you could get three Zulus and a couple of Pygmies on to one of those.
:rolleyes:

Lon More
30th Jan 2014, 16:11
you could get three Zulus and a couple of Pygmies on to one of those.

the Original kebab

500N
30th Jan 2014, 16:19
LOL :O :ok:


Now now, you'll pee K&C off !

Krystal n chips
30th Jan 2014, 17:35
" Yet, for some today, that is not enough; nothing will ever be enough. They have the vote but still see fit to riot

Basil....Good grief old boy !.....the peasants have been granted the vote !....mark my words old chap, next thing you know.....they'll be letting women vote as well !!!

Most demonstrations tend to be peaceful, a bit noisy perhaps, and for a valid reason.....people wish to register their sentiments about an issue in a tangible manner ( presumably you would prefer to write a strongly worded letter to the Times / Telegraph / Mail ) and yes, strangely enough, people do want more than the vote.

The problem is that some protesters see a protest as an opportunity for violence, irrespective of the reason for the protest. On the opposite side as it were, invariably the Police ( excluding recent history in N.I ) also have within their ranks, those who are opposed to people demonstrating and those who, frankly, as prone to violence as the minority of demonstrators.

When the two meet therefore.....

rgbrock1
31st Jan 2014, 14:14
Basil wrote:

Cue video: Woman! Know your place!I've tried this line countless times with the Mrs. Which usually results in either a strange look from her OR something about withholding. And I don't think she means tax withholding. :}

(Which is a far better reaction to the one I receive when i say something like "Where's the beer, bitch?" :})

Lon More
31st Jan 2014, 14:16
Most demonstrations tend to be peaceful

Unless that group of bolshies, the BNP, are involved.

500N
31st Jan 2014, 14:17
RGB

I think a few more cracks of the whip are needed ;) :O

(tin foil hat on, awaiting incoming from Krystal ..... )

Lon More
31st Jan 2014, 14:22
I think a few more cracks of the whip are needed

Into bondage or self-flagellation are you? :=

500N
31st Jan 2014, 14:24
I'm not, but she is ;)

500N
31st Jan 2014, 14:27
Re " Cue video: Woman! Know your place!"

You should have a look at Aboriginal society, in most cases "womens work" is clearly defined and the do's and do not's for Aboriginal women is long.

I even had it said to me 4 weeks ago that that is "women's work"
to raised eyebrows from me !!!
(They were talking about fishing of all things :rolleyes:)

BenThere
31st Jan 2014, 14:38
Call me out on it if I'm wrong, but I've observed over my aviation career, and I presume it holds true in fields outside aviation, such as sniper calculations, artillery deployment, kill boxes, GPS and its utilization, etc, etc., that if you search into the origins of received wisdom, there's usually an American, if not the original engineer then the corporate organizer and sponsor of the technology, at the bottom of it.

A century or more ago it was the Brits at the bottom of it.

Maybe one day the Chinese will be at the bottom of it, but as an American, I would caution, "Don't be so sure."

sitigeltfel
31st Jan 2014, 14:38
Most demonstrations tend to be peaceful Unless that group of bolshies, the BNP, are involved.


Oh dear, Lon.

Demonstrations by the BNP and other buffoons tend to be so sparsely attended that the only time we hear about them is when the fascist Left bring out their own thugs to confront them, and start a mini riot, thus giving them the oxygen of publicity.
Ignore them and no one would be any the wiser.

rgbrock1
31st Jan 2014, 14:42
Ignore them and no one would be any the wiser.

Or you could pour salt on them. :ok:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llgb4emx6U1qjg6b8o1_400.jpg

Krystal n chips
31st Jan 2014, 16:25
Call me out on it if I'm wrong, but I've observed over my aviation career, and I presume it holds true in fields outside aviation, such as sniper calculations, artillery deployment, kill boxes, GPS and its utilization, etc, etc., that if you search into the origins of received wisdom, there's usually an American, if not the original engineer then the corporate organizer and sponsor of the technology, at the bottom of it.

Allow me to oblige, in response to your request.

Leaving aside the decidedly tenuous link, notably how to kill people, with regard to the thread, it will come as a surprise that there are other countries in the world whose population have also contributed, and currently still contribute, to technology, transport, communication, health....name any sector you wish as well as...Americans.

Is this simplistic enough ?....as for observing, can we assume your F.A.A medical is current regarding eyesight standards ?

As yes, the BNP / EDL.....nothing you can really say about them that isn't patently obvious. Granite has more porosity than the gristle and bone on top of their shoulders.

BenThere
31st Jan 2014, 17:12
No doubt about it, great minds outside the US, Tesla and Einstein, for example, forwarded their cranial production to the common good, but when you look at the systems developed, the capital applied to make it happen, there's most often an American at the bottom of it. That's my point.

The way things are done today, whether airspace management, lightbulbs, whatever... There's an American who made it happen for the most part, post WWII.

At 62, I struggle most with my FAA eye test at my 6 month physical. Still correctible to 20-20, but just barely. As it's me who wants to retire, but my wife who still wants the paycheck coming in, I wish FAA would just pull the plug and set me free.

I look forward to your future posts as BNP/EDL/UKIP continue to gain ascendence in the UK.

tony draper
31st Jan 2014, 17:18
Lightbulbs!! LIGHTBULBS???:suspect:
You lot were still knee deep in Buffalo shite when houses in my town were illuminated by electric light bulbs.:=:rolleyes:

BenThere
31st Jan 2014, 17:23
Probably so, Tony.

I threw the light bulb prop out from the top of my head - no research. But my point is that Americans have for the most part made the largest contributions to the skeleton of world infrastructure, conventions of engineering, and such.

G&T ice n slice
31st Jan 2014, 21:46
I think you'll find that it was the Germans

Ogre
31st Jan 2014, 22:13
BenThere

I fear you may be a victim of your own propaganda. During a period when I was co-located with the forces of Uncle Sam, we used to watch their service tv broadcasts in th eevenings when we were not working. Instead of commercials for soap powder, car insurance etc. the breaks in the programs were filled with little illustrated and heartwarming snippets of information about many wonderful military things that had been invented by the U.S.

I'm afraid to say that we managed to identify a significant number of porkies along the way, or at least those failed to mention significant inputs from non-American contibutors. Radar would not have been quite the same without Watson-Watt, the Royal Navy had quite an efficient steam catapult for aircraft carriers, and the gyro stabilised lighting system for guiding pilots to land back on the carrier was another RN invention using a lens by Monsieur Fresnel .

N707ZS
31st Jan 2014, 22:24
Thing is most Britains cannot be arsed these days to do anything never mind go out and have a riot against a government policy.

BenThere
31st Jan 2014, 22:28
I don't belittle or begrudge the significant advances made without American technology.

My point is that in the post-WWII world, it was American technology, management, vision, and application that made, for the most part, the world we live in. We set out the protocols, conventions, measurements, etc., that set the benchmarks and laid out the ground rules for further advancement.

A lot of other folks have done great things, but it was us Americans who set the stage for the past 60 years.

awblain
31st Jan 2014, 23:17
I guess it'll save Boris having to scrap those firetrucks after all.

500N
31st Jan 2014, 23:21
The black box in aircraft.

henrybluebottle
31st Jan 2014, 23:33
WiFi (invented by CSIRO (there - 10 letters or more - happy now ?))

wiggy
1st Feb 2014, 01:34
A lot of other folks have done great things,

Well that's very kind of you...

but it was us Americans who set the stage for the past 60 years.

I suspect you're having a giraffe and you know it ;)

Anyhow, just in case you are genuinely deluded lets start with a couple of little things you might have missed in the States:

the little trivial thing called the internet ( generally accepted to work because of a chap called Tim Berners-Lee, who is not American ),

and text messaging ( a Scandanavian invention)

Most of the consumer electronic devices in your home, anybody's home around the world is not American (just so you know brands such as Toyota, Honda, Siemens, et. al aren't American). The Airbus you may well fly on domestically in the States is manufactured by EADS...guess what, they're not American.....As a frequent visitor to your part of the world I see there's still a degree of fawning over Princess Diana..:ooh: and as to current interest on TV you do seem mightly focused on the likes of Simon Cowell.:ooh::ooh:. Nigella Lawson :sad: and Piers Morgan :ugh::ugh: (don't blame me, blame your CNN for that one)...Now OK, your version "House of Cards" wasn't bad, but frankly it was a bloated copy of the UK classic - but I'll let you off because if I had been younger I would have fallen in love with the female reporter character which in your version,2Zoe"......actually, didn't somebody say "what's age got to do with it",so yes... that's at least one strike to the States. I'll let you off with HBO..they do a good job at providing entertainment in some of the more remote parts of the world but then again so does TV5 ( that's French)

In print media in the States you've got the Brits like Tina Brown at Tatler/Vanity Fair, and Colin Myler editing "The Daily News"....and in the music world wide in the last 60 years I'd mention small bands like the Beatles, the Stones, The Who, Abba, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, and most of all the Sex Pistols, :ok:

(Personally I hate the Beatles so you're farking welcome to them, especially Sir Paul:ugh: - I'll swap them for the Beach Boys - but you're not having the Who or the Pistols).

So yes, overall the rest of the world had contributed fark all to anything, especially in the States itself........:ok:

GrumpyOldFart
1st Feb 2014, 02:10
it was American technology, management, vision, and application that
made, for the most part, the world we live in


Oh, praise de Lawd! Halleluja! Thank you, massa!


:rolleyes:

Nemrytter
1st Feb 2014, 02:29
A lot of other folks have done great things, but it was us Americans who set the stage for the past 60 years.I find this very interesting as, having recently moved to the US, I have discovered that the majority of the research and invention done in your fine universities and institutions is done by foreigners.
Out of the 200 or so people in my department you can count the number who have American passports on your fingers. This is extreme (very specialised field) but in every place I have visited in the last 6 months it is the same story: The majority of researchers are still non-American. Even at govt labs, which surprised me.
You could argue that the USA has set the stage, but it appears to be non-Americans who are acting in the play. If I were an American it would worry me what will happen when these people decide to go home again: As Europe recovers and China/India/others continue to become stronger fewer and fewer of these visitors to the USA will choose to stay...or even to come here in the first place.

Krystal n chips
1st Feb 2014, 05:40
From water cannon to.....pure syrup propaganda. Last time there was a hi-jack of this magnitude was Dawsons Field !

" There's an American who made it happen for the most part, post WWII.
"

Of course there was.....shall we start with Lehman Brothers et al and take it from there ?

Lon More
1st Feb 2014, 08:51
Tesla and Einstein aah yes, along with Werner von Braun, great Americans all.

as for the "black box"
One of the earliest attempts to record flight data was made by François Hussenot and Paul Beaudouin in 1939 at the Marignane flight test center, France, with their "type HB" flight recorder. This was an essentially photograph-based device, because the record was made on a scrolling eight meters long by 88 milimeters wide photographic film. The latent image was made by a thin ray of light deviated by a mirror tilted according to the magnitude of the data to record (altitude, speed, etc.).[3][4] A pre-production run of 25 "HB" recorders was ordered in 1941 and HB recorders remained in use in French test centers well into the seventies[5] In 1947, Hussenot, Beaudouin and associate Marcel Ramolfo founded the Société Française d'Instruments de Mesure (SFIM) to market their design. This company went on to become a major supplier of data recorders, used not only aboard aircraft but also trains and other vehicles. SFIM is today part of the Safran group and is still present on the flight recorder market.

The advantage of the film technology was that it could be easily developed afterwards and provides a durable, visual feedback of the flight parameters without needing any playback device. On the other hand, unlike magnetic bands or later flash memory-based technology, a photographic film cannot be erased and recycled, and so it must be changed periodically. As such, this technology was reserved for one-shot uses, mostly during planned test flights; and it was not mounted aboard civilian aircraft during routine commercial flights. Also, the cockpit conversation was not recorded.

Another form of flight data recorder was developed in the UK during World War II. Len Harrison and Vic Husband developed a unit that could withstand a crash and fire to keep the flight data intact. This unit used copper foil as the recording medium with various styli indicating various instruments / aircraft controls which indented the copper foil. The copper foil was periodically advanced at set periods of time therefore giving a history of the instruments /control settings of the aircraft. This unit was developed at Farnborough for the Ministry of Aircraft Production. At the war's end the Ministry got Harrison and Husband to sign over their invention to them and the Ministry patented it under British patent 19330/45. This unit was the forerunner of today's black boxes being able to withstand conditions that aircrew could not.

Sunnyjohn
1st Feb 2014, 10:24
If the use of water cannon could have prevented this:
10 August 2011
Demolition of House of Reeves Furniture showroom and store after riot, in Croydon, Surrey.
The 150-year-old House of Reeves furniture store was destroyed by rioters on Monday night. The Reeves family, who owned House of Reeves Furniture, hired a demolition crew so the remains of their ruined furniture store could be cleared. then I would say, yes, use them.

probes
1st Feb 2014, 10:37
snow cannon, to give the thread a seasonal touch

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHG7Jzf5RM2qMu7TaUf0NCIsWuz8uGDYhAx-kHDOxkm1-pA2fIuQ

bcgallacher
3rd Feb 2014, 06:42
We have never used water cannon against our own population on mainland UK and would consider it an admission of failure if we ever did - far better to spend the money on efforts to prevent their need.Use of water cannon always makes me imagine South American dictatorships. Just a short step to tear gas and rubber bullets - or worse.It really is not the way we do things in the UK.

Blacksheep
3rd Feb 2014, 07:03
It really is not the way we do things in the UK. The UK isn't the UK in those geographical areas where we need such things. The Tottenham riots began in the High Street area, instigated by incomers from the nearby "No-Go" area of Broadwater Farm, protesting at the police shooting a gun-toting Broadwater drug gangster, who died from his injuries.

Now, I find it hard to describe Broadwater Farm as part of the UK. There is a shrine to an assassinated drug gangster at the entrance to the area from the A10. And it is not that long ago that a residents action group in Broadwater Farm isolated and cornered a police officer who was one of a team trying to protect fire-fighters, then hacked him to death with machetes.

That too, really is not the way we do things in UK. Is this what the UK has become?

bcgallacher
3rd Feb 2014, 16:53
Black sheep - on reflection I can only agree with you regarding these locations but I still do not want water cannon on UK streets. Given the standard of the police these days they would be trotted out on any excuse.

wings folded
3rd Feb 2014, 19:30
My point is that in the post-WWII world, it was American technology, management, vision, and application that made, for the most part, the world we live in. We set out the protocols, conventions, measurements, etc., that set the benchmarks and laid out the ground rules for further advancement.


And enacted the most outreaching patent laws, even over things which were not intrinsically American (such as the patenting a family name by purveyors of foul food such that a family firm of Scottish origin could no longer call their restaurant by their own name) which are then enforced with a breathtaking zeal by lawyers. Yes, ground rules for further American advancement are set by that.

And I love the bit about measurements. Inches of mercury? US gallons? Cups? Quarts?

Universally recognised benchmarks? Perhaps to you they are.

eastern wiseguy
3rd Feb 2014, 20:10
http://cdn2.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article29420225.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/Ardoyne+water+cannon

Riots kick off at Woodvale as the parades are not allowed to pass Ardoyne. A man on top of a police landrover gets blown off by the water cannon. DAVID FITZGERALD/PACEMAKER PRESS



Cracking shot from
Northern Ireland's Breaking News, Comment and Analysis - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk)

Burnie5204
3rd Feb 2014, 23:40
Bcgallacher - you obviously missed my previous post that the UK had Water Cannon for many years and didnt deploy them once.

They fell into disrepair and were scrapped a few years ago according to my contact.

Now the Met want to replace them but cant afford to do so themselves and had to go to the HomeSec/BoJo for extra funding.

bcgallacher
4th Feb 2014, 14:54
The Manchester police chief who spoke to God every morning during the Thatcher era tried to get the local authority to buy him water cannon and I believe armoured vehicles. Have forgotten his name but he was definitely certifiable -he changed his religion 3 times while in office.

tony draper
4th Feb 2014, 15:00
I remember him, big daft bearded cove he were.
All changed now,they just appoint politicians to the Chief Constables job these days,not thief takers.
:)

27mm
4th Feb 2014, 16:50
James Anderton, IIRC. While we're on the topic of water cannon, is it true that some have tear gas as an ingredient of the spray?

bcgallacher
4th Feb 2014, 23:59
That's the bugger,nasty piece of work - tried to fit up one of his senior officers -John Stalker,who produced a report on some killings in Ireland that Maggi T did not like. Beware of Good Christians - they are usually neither. I believe that adding irritant to the water has been done - commonly a dye can be added so that demonstrators can be identified later.Frankly,the less equipment capable of suppressing dissent that gets into the hands of Cameron and his millionaire classmates the better. We are going to have more new policies that will hit the weakest and most vulnerable in our society - perhaps this is Boris making preparation.

llondel
5th Feb 2014, 03:37
I have every reason to believe that the current government wouldn't allow abuse of water cannon if they were allowed to be used on the UK mainland, but I wouldn't trust future governments to be well-behaved. Therefore it's safer to fight their introduction.

baggersup
5th Feb 2014, 03:53
Water canon are pretty cool machines though. I was at the PSNI in Northern Ireland, at their training center, where they keep all their kit in barn-like outbuildings.

Oddly I was there just a couple of weeks prior to the summer riots of 2011. Then on the UK mainland for that show. Fortunately, not in London but in Newcastle, where nobody even threw a punch much less rioted. (Kudos to Newcastle).

But watching it on tv, having just seen the demonstrations at the PSNI and attended their "riot control" seminar (with training videos to show how good training can forestall flash points), I couldn't help but make the connection of how quickly a lot of that nonsense would have been over and dusted with some water canon trundling down the high street poised to wet down the rioters.

Instead what was televisied it was a free to riot zone and flash mob looting from text messaging that seemed completely unstoppable with the gear they had on hand.

There must be a medium between all out riot vehicle/gear imposition including water canon and no control whatsoever by authorities?

At the PSNI headquarters, those water canon were there, among other heavy duty riot fighting vehicles which were really amazing things.

As for rubber bullets...I'd never actually seen one before. They handed me one and it was huge and looked like it would not be fun at high velocity. I'd NOT want to be hit with that thing. Nope.

sitigeltfel
5th Feb 2014, 06:08
As for rubber bullets...I'd never actually seen one before. They handed me one and it was huge and looked like it would not be fun at high velocity. I'd NOT want to be hit with that thing. Nope.

The weapon was even more effective if the baton round was removed from its case and replaced with a U2 torch battery.

Allegedly ;)

bcgallacher
5th Feb 2014, 10:35
Llondel - your faith in the current government is touching,my own opinion is that they would use flame throwers and beehive rounds if they thought they could get away with it.

Blacksheep
5th Feb 2014, 12:31
. . . perhaps this is Boris making preparationOh, I do hope so. Our party needs a new leader. Preferably one who isn't a socialist in disguise. :rolleyes:

Krystal n chips
5th Feb 2014, 17:12
By a happy coincidence, albeit probably ignored by many on here, here's a link that makes interesting reading :

Is Britain ready for water cannon? | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/04/britain-ready-for-water-cannon-london)

bcgallacher
5th Feb 2014, 23:48
That must be the oddest comment I have seen in a while - perhaps it's age but I haven't a bloody clue what it means.

llondel
6th Feb 2014, 03:45
Llondel - your faith in the current government is touching,my own opinion is that they would use flame throwers and beehive rounds if they thought they could get away with it.

I don't think they'd have the time to introduce them and find a good-enough excuse to use them. It would be too close to an election so they wouldn't want the bad publicity.

El Grifo
6th Feb 2014, 09:24
Who needs Water Cannon when you have uniformed bas#ards like this prowling your streets !!

LiveLeak.com - Officer framing citizen on camera (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fc7_1391532479#uElsHhh2vaYxZgdO.01)

bcgallacher
6th Feb 2014, 11:36
I bet he is just drooling at the thought of getting his own water cannon - this is one of the reasons ********* should never be allowed to have them.

El Grifo
6th Feb 2014, 11:54
Don't fret too much bc !

They are probably just a bag of them "bad apples" wot we hear about in ever increasing frequency :ok:

Move along there, nothing to see !!

El G.

Blacksheep
6th Feb 2014, 12:15
Just so we don't forget what we're discussing, we want to prevent a recurrence of this kind of thing in Croydon . . .


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvYKY7_r-DXCLjpoAzVy7VBu3QJev0iYthWjoYajWwDETKu89J8A

500N
6th Feb 2014, 12:22
Croydon should never happen again.

Everything should be used to stop the streets from being lost
as was the case during those riots. Once it happens again, people
will know it can be done.

If they won't let them use rubber bullets, water cannon, then why not
vehicles and a full on baton charge and just overwhelm them ?

El Grifo
6th Feb 2014, 12:39
Blacksheep and 500N

Are you defending or opposing the actions of the police constables in the video.

yes or no ?

El G.

Lon More
6th Feb 2014, 14:04
Some here probably can't wait to send the troops in. It worked for Churchill (Tonypandy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonypandy_Riots) }and was considered by Thatcher during the Miner's Strike (http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/thatcher-miners-official-papers-confirm-strikers-worst-suspicions/265) and of course, actually happened when the fire officers struck

500N
6th Feb 2014, 18:58
El Grifo

I can't watch it as I have a problem with Flash Player.
But if the video is as it says, then oppose.

That is castly different from what I was talking about, wild rioting and looting and setting fire to London with virtually no control by the Police, the result being photos like the one posted.

and yes, if it meant restoring law and order, send in the troops if you need overwhelming numbers to subdue the rioters.

If you don't, you will end up with people doing it themselves and them
you will potentially have a blood bath on your hands. Look at LA, when
the Police lost control, people defended streets themselves.

El Grifo
6th Feb 2014, 19:17
I am all in favour of law and order 500N.

In fact my daughter had only just moved out of the flat above the costume shop in Clapham which was burned out during the riots.

The police are an essential part of life, let's be thankful for their existence.

A balance has to be struck however.

Who polices the police ??

Here is a crappy little link to the carry on. It may help.

Salford Anti-fracking protester to sue Greater Manchester Police over 'trumped-up' drink arrest caught on video at Barton Moss - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/salford-anti-fracking-protester-sue-greater-6676499)

500N
6th Feb 2014, 19:21
"Who polices the police ??"

Someone needs to. We have an independent Ombudsmen.

BTW, my scenario above does not really extend to strikers who are peacefully picketing, I am talking about wanton violence, assaults, arson like in Croydon.

Blacksheep
6th Feb 2014, 22:06
El Grifo - I don't condone that kind of thing, but I also don't see what it has to do with the kind of situation that began in Tottenham High Street, with arsonists setting fire to buildings in which people were living. The photo I linked says it better than words.

It is a fact that it is lawful to shoot such arsonists dead on sight. Using water cannons and tear gas in those circumstances is therefore the "soft option".

500N
6th Feb 2014, 22:15
You'd only need to shoot one or two arsonists to make the others sit up and think twice before doing something.

bcgallacher
7th Feb 2014, 03:23
Black sheep I would be interested to learn how it is legal to shoot arsonists in the UK on sight. The legal constraints on police use of firearms are in theory at least very specific. For a start how would you identify an arsonist? Even in the worst riots in NI Molotov cocktail throwers were not shot.

bcgallacher
7th Feb 2014, 03:28
500N Once again your philosophy of shooting someone to solve social problems comes to the fore! :)

500N
7th Feb 2014, 03:34
If it was my house they were attacking and setting fire to, give me one reason why not. What gives them the right ?

Secondly, why should these wankers get away with what they did ?
You won't let the Police use "less lethal" means to stop them like water cannon etc so the end result is you have riots and no police control.


We had exactly the same situation here, cops were shooting people, a lot of unstable mental people who had been let out (unwisely). So, the police retrained to use other "less lethal methods". One instance, the Police used Capsicum spray and subdued the man.

Some dick wit lefty reported asked a question at the news conference if it was really necessary to use Capsicum spray on them. Luckily, the Senior police officer wasn't into PC BS and just said straight out, "the alternative is a lot more fatal if that is what you'd prefer". Total stunned silence - and a lot of support for what he said afterwards.

parabellum
7th Feb 2014, 03:41
In the Brit Army we didn't tell the guns by how much they had missed, we just gave the corrections, all interesting stuff when flying a helicopter at the same time! Most of us were from others corps and regiments too, so not professional arty spotters.

bcgallacher
7th Feb 2014, 03:59
If this were the case I can foresee a police "marksman" arriving at an incident to find someone running from a burning building carrying a couple of bags,after shooting the 'looter' or 'arsonist' he finds it's the occupier of the building rescuing his valuables. The riots got out of hand due to police inaction at the beginning - basically they stood around wondering what to do - the leadership was woeful.By the time they tried to get a grip on the situation it was out of control.To be fair to the police I do not think that the rioting could be predicted and is something that the police thankfully do not normally have to cope with - unruly crowds yes,full blown riots no.
Keep deadly weapons as a last resort - Northern Ireland has shown too often that when guns are used against rioters it becomes a lottery as to who gets shot.I am a great believer in punishing only the guilty and not regarding innocent deaths as some kind of collateral damage.

bcgallacher
7th Feb 2014, 04:09
500N - How do you know the person who asked the question was a 'lefty'? Is it not possible he was just a common or garden idiot.It would appear that anyone who does not agree with your views is automatically of the left.

llondel
7th Feb 2014, 04:58
I get the impression that pretty much everyone is to the left of 500N...:E

500N
7th Feb 2014, 05:06
Not at all :O

Burnie5204
7th Feb 2014, 06:07
The riots got out of hand due to police inaction at the beginning - basically they stood around wondering what to do - the leadership was woeful.By the time they tried to get a grip on the situation it was out of control.To be fair to the police I do not think that the rioting could be predicted and is something that the police thankfully do not normally have to cope with

Thats not what happened at all! That might be what it looked like but thats not what happened.

Police were not able to kill the riots dead on the first night because there simply were not enough officers available to effectively retake the streets. Why? Because a succession of NIMBY councillors sitting on the London Assembly with no appreciation of how to Police have eroded the capabilities and removed a huge swath of the 'force multipliers' that the Met used to have (which includes Water Cannon). The result was that all they could do was try and limit the spread. Once sufficient numbers were able to be mustered up (night 3) then the City was retaken. But guess what - there are even LESS officers now thanks to the cuts.

If the Met had still had those capabilities then they would have been able to retake the streets sooner but in an effort to make the Police all soft and fluffy they had forgotten that when that inevitably fails then hard and fast tactics are required.

Just look at the TASER debate. People without a clue screaming "Wont somebody think of the children!!" and completely failing to appreciate that the alternatives are far more injurious to both subject and officer and may even be fatal.

bcgallacher
8th Feb 2014, 02:02
I agree with much of what you are saying but the point is it should not have taken 3 days to get sufficient forces together - the high command really did not seem to realise what they had on their hands.I certainly have no aversion to tazers-they avoid killing people in violent confrontations and are not indiscriminate anyone that objects to their correct use has little commonsense. ,

bcgallacher
8th Feb 2014, 02:23
Llondel- Even the late lamented Adolf H. Was to the left of 500N,but consider what a boring site this would be without he and his ilk!

500N
8th Feb 2014, 02:40
Bag

But the problem is, some do object to tasters being used.

3days to take control.

Even a small number of police could at least have done something
With a tactically astute leader.

Lon More
8th Feb 2014, 08:26
some do object to tasters being used.

should have given them a good licking.

llondel
8th Feb 2014, 21:01
Llondel- Even the late lamented Adolf H. Was to the left of 500N,but consider what a boring site this would be without he and his ilk!

I'm not complaining, having a variety of views is important. I even agree with him on occasion.:eek:

llondel
8th Feb 2014, 21:06
But the problem is, some do object to tasers being used.

I think most of the objections come when tasers are inappropriately used. Some police officers seem to use them instead of engaging their judgement and common sense, or check those attributes in when signing out the taser. They're not as non-lethal as some people claim, either.

500N
8th Feb 2014, 22:26
"They're not as non-lethal as some people claim, either."

Neither is a feather duster if you choke on it :O

But yes, they are not totally "non lethal" in certain circumstances but
you still have to be able to police with some physical restraint means.

Se article today in the DM re a sound device and then read the comments :rolleyes:


llondel
:ok:

bcgallacher
9th Feb 2014, 08:05
As 500N states basically anything can be fatal in the right circumstances - even physical restraint. The point of tazers is they reduce the chance of somebody having to be shot and killed If someone dies from time to time that has to be accepted,if some idiot cannot see this he must be a bit lacking in the common sense department.The main point being if you don't want to get tasered or shot don't get yourself into a position where this is a possibility.

500N
9th Feb 2014, 08:12
May I add to your last sentence which was very well put,
break the law and expect the police to use al and every means to stop you from yelling at you to shooting you until you are apprehended.

Might stop a few people if Thet knew this.

OFSO
9th Feb 2014, 08:13
We currently have a situation here in Catalunia where the use of "non-lethal" weapons is under review after a young lady (who seemingly was an innocent bystander near a riot) lost an eye after being hit by some kind of round. It is alleged that the police either fired too high or too low, in the latter case causing ricochets off the pavement.

Which comes back to my initial statement. Logic suggests that where massive public disorder is taking place, an "Order to Disperse" should be read loudly and clearly. What happens after that is the responsibility of the individual citizen present at the disturbance.

Incidently I have experience of public disorder taking place both in Germany (Heidelberg) and in Spain (Pamplona). I took care to get out of the way as rapidly as I could.

(What is the difference between being on the streets of Pamplona on a normal day and the running of the bulls during San Fermin ? Very little.)

bcgallacher
9th Feb 2014, 08:58
I was once in a real riot in Tehran during the revolution - shooting,tear gas batons,the whole 9 yards.Frankly I have never been so frightened in my life,we drove into the wrong street and could not get back - that is when I learned fear is brown and smells.