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Groundbased
25th Jan 2014, 10:26
Son spent a good deal of time this morning setting up his Hornsby set. When we plugged in nothing happened.

The issue doesn't seem to be the transformer itself, rather the plug between the mains and the transformer. We have another plug from a different transformer, and when we use this it works but the engine seems to be getting too much juice and it wheelspins and is uncontrollable.

I'm wondering if the output from the adapters is the problem:

The one which doesn't work has this label - primary 240v 50hz secondary 16v - 14va
The one which does work says - primary 220-240v secondary 19v

Any thoughts?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
25th Jan 2014, 10:36
Their seems to be some confusion in your description of the electrical set up to power the train set. you refer to a 'plug', then to an 'adaptor'. Which is it?

A plug is an entirely passive device to attach the mains lead to the mains. An adaptor, as its name suggests, does some adapting - either mechanical to enable a plug to be fitted to a socket, or electrical.

A train set power system (a simple one, not one of the fancy new electronic ones) comprises a 'mains to approx 12V transformer', a rectifier to convert the transformer output to DC, and a variable voltage output device to control the speed and direction of the locomotive.

Now what exactly is your set-up?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
25th Jan 2014, 10:45
The Hornsby set reference would be handy.

The wheelspinning could be explained by too high a voltage, which 19V would be if it's designed for 14-16V.

We await more details. Does the intended transformer have an accessible fuse in the plug, and have you tried replacing this?

Airey Belvoir
25th Jan 2014, 10:50
I think I know your problem.


You've got a train set that is manufactured by a cheap Chinese rip-off.


Now if you had bought a train set by Hornby it would probably work. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Groundbased
25th Jan 2014, 10:57
It is Hornby. The Eurostar one.

I have a mains plug with a with a wire which plugs into a transformer. The transformer has a wire which plugs into the track.

I am referring to the plug and wire which goes from the mains to the transformer. Confusingly one "plug" (which goes into the mains) is labelled c.912 transformer (the 16v one) and the other is labelled adapter (the 19v one).

Cheers.

MFC_Fly
25th Jan 2014, 11:07
What is the Hornby model number for the power adapter that you plug into the mains?
What is the Hornby model number of the controller/transformer that you plug the above into and which you connect to the track?

With the above answers then others may be able to help you.

[Edited to add...]
Looking at the Hornby website, the set you tell us your 'son' has comes supplied with...
Hornby Model Railways - 220-240V 50-60Hz Transformer (http://www.hornby.com/shop/power-and-control/p9000-220-240v-50-60hz-transformer/)
and,
Hornby Model Railways - Standard Train Controller (http://www.hornby.com/shop/power-and-control/r8250-standard-train-controller/)
Is this what you have?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
25th Jan 2014, 11:15
Is it possible that your "transformer" is in fact the R8250 Train controller?

i.e. you have this..
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/hornby-transformer-C912-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/MrMAAOxysE5SbW7s/$T2eC16dHJIIFHJoRg5oIBSbW7r7sEw~~60_35.JPG

plugged into this...
http://www.hornby.com/_assets/images/cache/shops/productdetailsmain/R8250.jpg

If so, what is happening is that the fat plug is transforming the mains voltage to either 14-16VA (ac) or 19V (dc), depending on which adapter you plug into the mains.

The output from the correct c912 "wallwart" is AC, unlike most of these devices for laptops, etc (is the other one you are using from a laptop - 19V sounds like it)

The R8250 Train Controller appears to be a simple analogue device which rectifies ac to dc, then provides a proportional voltage to control the train.

Thus, the second adapter, which provides some power, is providing too much voltage. This will damage the controller as well as the engine, so stop using it.

You need a new c912.

Groundbased
25th Jan 2014, 11:18
Yes, those are what was originally supplied with the set. However that controller is incredibly flimsy and poor quality, it lasted about a week.

From a model shop I bought an R965 train controller, which came with the C.912 transformer (16v) to replace it.

This one is sturdy and was working beautifully until today, so I am thinking that the transformer part of it has gone belly up.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
25th Jan 2014, 11:21
The usual reason for the wallwart fat plug like the c912 failing is, in my experience, people winding up the output wire tightly around the body for storage, and causing a broken connection where it meets the body. Loop the wire with a slack 3 inches between the body and where the looping starts, and use a rubber band to keep the loops compact.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
25th Jan 2014, 11:24
The R965 also requires a 16VA input.

ac (alternating current) voltages are measured in VA
dc (direct current) voltages are measure in V

Fox3WheresMyBanana
25th Jan 2014, 11:26
If the R965 provides power (although too much) with the other "adapter", then you are correct that the wallwart c912 is the problem.

Groundbased
25th Jan 2014, 11:29
Ok all, thanks looks like a new C912 is required.

Pprune, brill, I knew I'd get the answer here.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
25th Jan 2014, 11:34
The original R8250 controller came with a P2000 wallwart transformer, according to the online kit list. If you still have this transformer, it does provide the correct 16VA ac voltage for the R965 controller you have now. I don't know if the plug will be correct; you may have to rob the controller connector off the defunct c912. This may enable you to get started shortly.

There is a review of the R965 here (Model Railway Controllers (http://www.scottpages.net/ReviewOfControllers.html))
It is thyristor controlled, which is the best kind of control you can get and normally very reliable.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
25th Jan 2014, 12:09
You are right Mr Crun, but we enter the dark world of simplified physics for consumers here.

ac Voltages are usually measured in Vrms, but this unit has been found to confuse the f#ck out of the average punter.

I should have more accurately put "ac voltages are shown in units of VA, which as Henry points out is strictly a power measurement, but is generally used as an indication of something like "Volts Ac" because that helps non-physicists 'get it'.

meadowrun
25th Jan 2014, 12:09
These are self powered.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/01/24/article-2545351-1AEE5FFE00000578-516_634x378.jpg

A A Gruntpuddock
25th Jan 2014, 12:24
"Both ac and dc voltages are measured in volts."

True, but the question here might be the type of volts.

Apart from the fact that 19 volts might ne too high anyway, if the controller is designed for AC (alternating) volts then it will not work properly with DC (steady) volts. even if the apparent voltage is the same.

There should be a symbol next to the voltage rating on the supply casing to show whether it is AC or DC -
Electronic Symbols & Electrical Symbols (http://www.electronic-symbols.com/index.htm?url=/electronic_symbols/electrical_currents_symbols.htm)

I am not sure what is required here, since a quick trawl of the web sees one Hornby transformer on sale described as DC, whereas another shows the Hornby controller as "taking in 15V AC from the transformer" and outputting 12v DC!

Perhaps there are two different (and incompatible) systems in use?

Either way, if the controller is designed to take in 15V and output 12, it may be set for a fixed 3V drop. Attaching a 19V transformer would then give 16V output, higher than the 12V the engine is designed to use.

meadowrun
25th Jan 2014, 12:33
Groundbased

Bet you're wishing you'd never asked by now.

lomapaseo
25th Jan 2014, 13:37
The simple way to trouble shoot this is to by-pass the black boxes between the wall plug and the train and wire it directly to the track.

Report back on what happens and we can go from there

Fareastdriver
25th Jan 2014, 13:40
That's the last train set I had a play with.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/G721-2.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/G721-2.jpg.html)"]http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/G721-2.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/G721-2.jpg.html)

cornish-stormrider
25th Jan 2014, 14:57
Just buy a decent controller
Simple as

Shaggy Sheep Driver
25th Jan 2014, 15:12
.....so you try not to use the water in that front tank until you're over the mountains?

Well the back one's full of coal so you don't ever want to use up all in the front one!

RedhillPhil
25th Jan 2014, 18:31
"Both ac and dc voltages are measured in volts."

True, but the question here might be the type of volts.

Apart from the fact that 19 volts might ne too high anyway, if the controller is designed for AC (alternating) volts then it will not work properly with DC (steady) volts. even if the apparent voltage is the same.

There should be a symbol next to the voltage rating on the supply casing to show whether it is AC or DC -
Electronic Symbols & Electrical Symbols (http://www.electronic-symbols.com/index.htm?url=/electronic_symbols/electrical_currents_symbols.htm)

I am not sure what is required here, since a quick trawl of the web sees one Hornby transformer on sale described as DC, whereas another shows the Hornby controller as "taking in 15V AC from the transformer" and outputting 12v DC!

Perhaps there are two different (and incompatible) systems in use?

Either way, if the controller is designed to take in 15V and output 12, it may be set for a fixed 3V drop. Attaching a 19V transformer would then give 16V output, higher than the 12V the engine is designed to use.


Pity the model one doesn't have the ability of the real one to run on three (some are modified for four) different voltage supplies.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
25th Jan 2014, 19:13
One of the locos I drive is a saddle tank, and the problem with that is the boiler heats the water in the tank. When the tank level gets low, the water can get quite hot which makes the injectors reluctant to pick up.

Frequent top-ups of the tank are the answer!

Garrat took his cue from Fairlie (see Ffestiniog Railway) for articulated locos. Then Mallet came up with a fixed rear set of wheels driven off high pressure cylinders, and a front bissel truck driven by the low pressure exhaust from the high pressure rear cylinders (so, a compound). The problem was there was no mechanical synchronisation between the bissel truck drive bogie and the fixed drive wheels, so if the former slipped while the main wheels didn't, it rapidly ran out of exhaust steam to drive it!

flying lid
25th Jan 2014, 20:33
Hornby (not Hornsby) trains run on 0 to 12 volts DC at the track. The controller varies the voltage from 0 (stopped) to 12 volts (full speed). Ensure your leads to the track are from the 12V DC terminals, and NOT the 16 volt AC (alternating current) ones that most power units also have, alongside the controlled 12V DC terminals. The 16V AC is used for lights, signals, point solenoids etc - NOT loco motors.

Confusion arises sometimes due to the type of power unit / controller. There are umpteen types / configurations. Check all the markings on your equipment. Just ensure the track supply wires are marked 12V DC.

A transformer reduces the mains supply usually to around 16 Volts AC. This is then rectified to 12V DC, and this is thence controlled by a rheostat (control knob) usually all this in the same unit, sometimes the transformer is separate.

By the way, those Garratts above are superb, made at Beyer Peacock's in Gorton, Manchester most of em. The only thing made in Gorton these days is drug money !!.

Lid

G-CPTN
25th Jan 2014, 20:48
I had a Hornby Dublo (inherited from my older brother - but added-to by my birthdays and Christmas presents).

I remember the heavy upright transformer (with its integral fuses) but I cannot remember what form the controller was - I have absolutely no memory of operating the speed controller . . .


Now that I have Googoed (http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/hornby-dublo-controller) and seen the controller it all comes back - including swinging the lever from forwards to reverse (and pressing the rest button after derailments 'shorted' the track.

ORAC
26th Jan 2014, 09:07
forget the transformer, buy him one of these (http://www.mamod.co.uk/product-category/model-steam-trains/). No more electrickery problems. Bit expensive, but yous get what you pay for.....

SawMan
26th Jan 2014, 12:59
And what does the council have to say IF the poor trees were to die- would they THEN let you remove them as you want to? There are ways which are non-obvious to cause such things to happen were one so inclined.

When you can't get what you want because of rules you cannot change, find the rules which will give you what you want and use them instead :E

Lon More
26th Jan 2014, 15:42
The LMS had Garratts too

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/22/45/2224549_2fb1bcd4.jpg

Outside one of Saltley Depot's roundhouses - roofless after war damage, rests one of the massive LMS 2-6-0+0-6-2 Garratts with a rotary coal-bunker (No. 7984) to ease (a little) the tough work of the unfortunate firemen of these beasts, which were built to do the normal work of two 0-6-0s mainly on coal trains.