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probes
19th Jan 2014, 13:34
I've recently run across some articles (like this (http://www.messagetoeagle.com/brainholograph.php), e.g) discussing how it's impossible for the brain to store all our memories and suggest it's similar to holographic information, or like cloud computing, where the information is stored somewhere 'else' and the brain is just able to access it.

Has anybody else (read about it)?

alisoncc
19th Jan 2014, 13:37
Agree, the problem is that as you get older you forget where "somewhere else is".

chksix
19th Jan 2014, 13:53
As our technology improves so does the model of our brain.

First it was a giant filing cabinet then RAM and ROM. Now it's going the Cloud way.
I don't trust any cloud with my files or pictures btw.

OFSO
19th Jan 2014, 13:56
it's impossible for the brain to store all our memories

AS I get older I find visual memories returning, almost as if "I were there in person". I am amazed at the amount of data this must involve. Where is it all stored ? Contrary to what previous wives have said to me, my head isn't that large.

goudie
19th Jan 2014, 14:18
AS I get older I find visual memories returning
Same here OFSO, especially if lying awake at night. All sorts of memories, going back to my early childhood, fill my mind. Events which I haven't thought about for many years.

flyhardmo
19th Jan 2014, 14:23
All sorts of memories, going back to my early childhood, fill my mind. Events which I haven't thought about for many years

Be careful goudie, that could be your life flashing before your eyes :eek:

Haraka
19th Jan 2014, 15:07
OFSO As we age we recall a lot of long lost ( suppressed?) memories going back to early childhood.
The "brain as a receiver" has a long history .
"Like a TV set" is one possible old analogy going back over at least 45 years ( to my days as a Human Biology student in London - courtesy of the RAF).

ORAC
19th Jan 2014, 15:22
it's quantum. We think we're clever, but nature got there before us....

Brain 'entanglement' could explain memories (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18371-brain-entanglement-could-explain-memories.html)

FROM CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE TO MEMORY STORAGE AND RETRIEVAL (http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0217979296000805)

dazdaz1
19th Jan 2014, 15:33
Same with me, I can see/recall a person from my past, not like looking at a photo but the image is there but not recalling the colour of dress. Some 80s I can recall patterns on their clothes. For e.g I remember my late mother (passed 2011) in her tartan skirt and cardigan, but forget other clothes she worn.

I was looking at my late mothers photo album, photo of me must be 1 year old laying on a sofa, the pattern of the sofa design I remembered. This is a great post from OP hope it carries on. So interesting and thought provoking.

goudie
19th Jan 2014, 15:48
'Flashbacks' is an interesting phenomenon

Flashback (psychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashback_%28psychology%29)

lomapaseo
19th Jan 2014, 15:58
The way we were - YouTube

airship
19th Jan 2014, 17:36
This reminds me of something I watched recently on Sky News, found it here (http://news.sky.com/story/1172540/head-injury-uncovers-teens-musical-gift), about a US teenager who "woke up" after severe concussion and found he could play a dozen musical instruments. How many of us here have at some stage in our lives, with a guitar in our hands, has not closed their eyes "somehow believing that some sort of miracle might occur in the next few moments", willfully re-opened their eyes and started strumming. Fully expecting to hear the vibrant sounds of John Denver, Gordon Lightfoot (or whoever) resound from their furious efforts in vain...?! :O

But something similar actually happened to me when I was 8 or 9 years old and living in Malaysia back in the late '60s. At the time, the government had decreed that all secondary-schooling in future was to be conducted in Malay. My school-mates (mixed bunch of Malaysian, Eurasian, Chinese and Europeans) and I talked about this, as it would affect us directly very soon. Whilst I obviously had acquired a reasonable working knowledge of Malay, a smattering of French, Tamil and Cantonese etc., in addition to my English mother-tongue during the 6-7 years of my early life there, foreign languages have never ever been my strong-point even when young but especially when the language involved non-latin script (eg. sanskrit).

My Hindi-language teacher when I spent a few years at school in India between the ages of 10 and 13 could never get over how I always obtained the worst possible scores 0.5/10 if doing somewhat better verbally. In desperation possibly, I recall him once, after announcing the latest test results in class, actually shouting at me "Have you no respect for Bharat (the new name for India back then, before anyone renamed Bombay as Mumbai etc.)?! Just because your father is an ex. colonial master doesn't give you an excuse not to learn the language properly...".

Whatever, going back to Malaysia back when I was about 8 or 9 years old. It may or not have had something to do with being attacked, knocked-off my bicycle, and bitten quite savagely on the thigh by the younger of the Hall's 2 Alsations (mum had taken the short-cut via the beach, which should have ensured she arrived at the Hall compound a good 10 minutes before me, ensuring the dogs were suitably restrained, whilst I took the longer route via the road on my Raleigh). My mum swore me to secrecy, I had no rabies shots, and dad remained ignorant. :confused:

BUT, and I swear this to be true, as I remember it: Just a few days later, I found myself to be 100% and fully-able to read, write and converse in Malay. As if I were a native. Alas, we moved to the UK for a year soon afterwards, then onto India.

Today, whatever language abilities I might have once possessed are a very distant memory indeed. Having lived in France for the past 22 years, I often mis-spell words and phrases (confusing French, English and Franglais). But sometimes, I do even dream in French, where I'm apparently able to conduct full-conversations with even ex. President Nicolas Sarkozy sometimes. But like most dreams, perhaps (or thankfully) these are rarely memorable on awakening...?!

Who here can really say that they actually remember being a man-eating leopard or tiger; a more ancient creature of several 10s of thousands or even millions of years ago; General Patton; or just life as a fruit-fly? But perhaps why I somehow feel some affiliation with the fore-mentioned, and won't even swat flies these days, just in case...

OFSO
19th Jan 2014, 18:03
With regard to information being stored holographically and dispersed thru the brain: not always.

I sat next to a Catalan lady in class here who formerly lived with her husband in New York, who worked there for many years. After he suffered a stroke, his knowledge of English - learned later in life - completely vanished, leaving him however with his childhood language - Catalan - unimpaired. And hence they came back to live where he could understand and be understood.

I have heard other anecdotal stories of people who learned one or more languages later in life, having had some form of traumatic brain damage, and losing one language but not another.

To me this suggests the brain stores new "files" in empty space and not in a logical system, i.e. next door to a previous language file.

Incidentally if I drink too much beer I start speaking German, whereas if it's wine I start trying to speak French.

Hydromet
19th Jan 2014, 20:29
Incidentally if I drink too much beer I start speaking German, whereas if it's wine I start trying to speak French.
Interesting. If I drink too much of either I start talking Braille.

tony draper
19th Jan 2014, 20:45
My memory seems to be stored in other peoples heads because they all seemed to blame me for things I cant remember doing.:(

probes
19th Jan 2014, 20:53
To me this suggests the brain stores new "files" in empty space and not in a logical system, i.e. next door to a previous language file.
dunno. When I had a very traumatic experience several years back and had to use English and my mother tongue, I had recurrent puzzled moments wondering which one I'm speaking. Seriously. Most scary.

As for wine or beer - both make me speak even faster than I normally do :sad:, which is fast enough, I have to admit. Regardless of the language.



But actually there are some scientists behind the theory, so there must be something in it?

onetrack
20th Jan 2014, 00:54
http://oi40.tinypic.com/2ezgugy.jpg

ChrisVJ
20th Jan 2014, 03:28
I have been interested for years in the way ‘vision’ is stored in memory because I was interested in digital photography. How could the brain, even given it’s huge, huge capacity store pictures, perhaps innumerable pictures each of millions of ‘pixels?’ Think, for instance storing moving pictures. At what frames per second would the brain store them and how many pixels per picture?
There was some very interesting work done by some scientists I read about some years ago and they believed the ‘events’ were stored rather than the pictures. The brain reconstituted the pictures from the basic memory, and not necessarily very accurately. You might remember the event, put the main items in the picture and then filling in the details of the main items and then fill in the background. We believe the picture is accurate but really we have no way of knowing.

For moving memories the brain constructs the originating picture and then modifies it as things move, ie, provide the changes to the picture rather than showing a whole new picture. In fact as a memory you don’t see most of the picture as it changes, only the detail you are concentrating on until you want to ‘see’ the rest of it and then it reconstitutes it for you. I thought it was interesting because, back in the days of slow internet connection, the amount of information required to show the changes might be hugely less than that needed to send a complete new frame for every frame.

Glad I didn’t spend any time on it because storage and transfer increased so fast as we all know you can now download every frame complete with sound for a film and have a couple of people on Pprune on the same connection at the same time!

chksix
20th Jan 2014, 10:41
My memories aren't like pictures. They are locations where I can walk around in my mind. I can still recollect how we played ball during breaks at my childhood school. While remembering that I can stop playing and walk to the classroom virtually.

603DX
20th Jan 2014, 11:01
I am aware that in conversations, something that I know that I know, like the name of a person or place, will sometimes fail to surface in my mind. So when this occurs, I just carry on, ignoring the "data retrieval failure". Later on, perhaps the next day, the answer appears unbidden when I wasn't even thinking about it. It's as if the brain and its storage system continue independently working on a set problem, rather like standby or autopilot. This can be a little disconcerting, seeming to indicate a "disconnect" from control of one's thought processes, although at the same time it is comforting that one was right after all, one did know it!
The existence of a second-tier memory store of the "cloud" type might be employed in the massive amounts of storage making this phenomenon possible.

This sort of delayed action data retrieval can even occur when I am quite sure that I don't know something, since logic says that I couldn't possibly have known it. Then it becomes a little more spooky, as the answer to a question pops up in my mind, triggering the obvious feeling that "I didn't know that I knew that!". A possible explanation to that situation could be that the original information was absorbed subliminally, so that despite it being duly logged into the data storage facilities of the brain, I wasn't aware of it. Oo-er! :ooh:

arcniz
20th Jan 2014, 11:13
To me this suggests the brain stores new "files" in empty space and not in a logical system, i.e. next door to a previous language file.

Agree.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Hippocampus_and_seahorse_cropped.JPG/220px-Hippocampus_and_seahorse_cropped.JPG

Adult Human Hippocampus_and_seahorse_compared...


Almost by definition, nothing Karl Pribram says can be actually wrong. He is a preeminent iconic long- and hard-working genius and communicator in the universe of neurology and brain function. One of the global absolute best in this field. I do respectfully disagree with some of his ideas, though.

"Holography" is almost certainly not the exactly correct phenomenon for describing brain function, because holographic effects specifically are resonance phenomena tied to the wave properties of light & similar. Liberties may be taken with the word "holographic" if one is seeking to impute similarity to some effects of holographic phenomna, but that indulgence is maybe quite misleading to most who might hear it in the context of cognitive function.

Just about 49 years ago, to the day, more or less, I walked into Karl Pribram's office as Professor at a college I attended, wanting just to make acquaintance after having read one of his books and to ask an earnest question or two about his thoughts on the little-understood academic field that then was respectfully (mostly due to its ability to attract government funding) called "Artificial Intelligence". He smiled at my question and said "What we do here is REAL Intelligence, but I catch your drift and see your interest". We talked on. After fifteen or twenty minutes chatter he offered me a serious job as a Research Assistant, a very special opportunity which was really surprising since my status then in the academic pecking order was inherently several levels below plain lint.

If it weren't for the cats, I almost certainly would have accepted his offer and in so doing would have changed the entire course of my life forward of that moment - likely for the better, but who knows? The catch was that cats then and still now are on the short list of spiritual allies and mitgaenger in my life trek, and I could not, on principle, resign myself to helping in the part of his research process that involved assembling and disassembling them daily as props for inquisitive undertakings. So, after pondering it all for a few days, I thanked him, said "No" and wished him success in his work.

Karl's persistence up to the present is amazing, and his discoveries in neurology are impressive at many levels. About the holographic thing, maybe also still needing some touches, tho.

When it all washes out... in this century or the next, such that thinking machines are ubiquitous and essential to whatever remains of civilization, one expects that their design will have been considerably informed by understandings of how Karl's "wetware" works, but the real performing and producing machines will more resemble Boeings and Ferraris than Freds and Emmas.

OFSO
20th Jan 2014, 12:26
I just carry on, ignoring the "data retrieval failure". Later on, perhaps the next day, the answer appears unbidden when I wasn't even thinking about it.

At the risk of being jeered at by rationalists, I would mention that there is a technique for influencing ones "luck" by strongly longing for an event to happen for a couple of hours and then mentally rejecting it and refusing to think about it. The desired result then appears unbidden.

I have not had any great success with this method, I hasten to add.

603DX
20th Jan 2014, 12:51
Most interesting technique, OFSO.

I may try it, by thinking hard and longingly about having Sophia Loren here sitting on my lap, and then mentally rejecting her.

I'll let you know if the object of my desire then appears unbidden ... :E

probes
20th Jan 2014, 13:42
A man of your intelligence is aware that one should be careful about what one wishes for, right, 603DX? :E What if she remains sitting there and turns out to be a total nuisance?

This sort of delayed action data retrieval can even occur when I am quite sure that I don't know something, since logic says that I couldn't possibly have known it. Then it becomes a little more spooky, as the answer to a question pops up in my mind, triggering the obvious feeling that "I didn't know that I knew that!".
I had a dream in a language I barely speak and woke up wondering what it was about. Also it seems to me if I've seen something done, even from a distance, then the process is stored somewhere (like some fixing-jobs or something).
if one is seeking to impute similarity to some effects of holographic phenomna
precisely. Absolutely to the very spot of the essence as usual, arcniz, thank you. :)

OFSO
20th Jan 2014, 13:56
I'll let you know if the object of my desire then appears unbidden

I'm not sure whether the appearance will be some sort of materialisation, complete with wispy strands of gauze, very unlikely I would have thought, or by a knock on the front door. Probably the latter so leave the door open. Meanwhile:


pete and dud greta garbo - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pete%20and%20dud%20greta%20garbo&sm=1)

603DX
20th Jan 2014, 14:26
What if she remains sitting there and turns out to be a total nuisance?

Not possible, probes, for a man who has yearned unceasingly for Miss Loren since schooldays, when the goddess from Pozzuoli (Naples) first appeared on the silver screen. How I envied Marcello Mastroianni as her leading man in so many of her films ... :O

Fantome
20th Jan 2014, 14:51
There can be no doubt that a fright, even more so than an experience of ecstasy,
imprints itself in our memory banks in a way that can be quite distressing.
One can be disturbed by this for a long time or a lifetime without being
categorised neurotic, psycho, paranoid or even super-sensitive. (Example of worst case is the character in Clockwork Orange who became a nut case, showing what conditioning can do to a susceptible brain.)

Yeo-Thomas , the White Rabbit, enduring Nazi torture, showed his extraordinary resilience when staring right down the barrel, so to speak.
The character played by Colin Firth in The Railway Man was portrayed as
a man of unshakeable principles of the best sort. If the book and the film are close to the true life story, he overcame his long deep seated trauma in the most extraordinary way, luck playing a major part.

A fright that stays with me recurrently down many years, accounting for many unpleasant dreams, is just hanging in the air in a single engined Cessna that lost power at low level over inhospitable country, but with just enough grunt left from an engine running on less than half normal power to stay in the air, down in ground effect, gingerly dodging trees and power poles and lines and houses and sheds, staying up as they say with that lower region sphincter working overtime,
contributing its bit to the defiance of gravity. The final, partially controlled arrival, devoid of serious collision, was no more or less a lucky save of the first order.

More recently a far too close near encounter with fifty foot trees at the end of a short farm strip has me thinking that if the nine lives theory has any validity, it is time to think more about absence of body than presence of mind.

What out of the blue abilities 'Airship' found after that dog bite he sustained as a youngster is simply amazing.
Just a few days later, I found myself to be 100% and fully-able to read, write and converse in Malay. As if I were a native.

Who here can really say that they actually remember being a man-eating leopard or tiger; a more ancient creature of several 10s of thousands or even millions of years ago; General Patton; or just life as a fruit-fly? But perhaps why I somehow feel some affiliation with the fore-mentioned, and won't even swat flies these days, just in case...

Not that our man necessarily seems to be implying that there is any connection between the bite of that dog and an extremely vivid imagination.

Or an affinity with Buddha.

Another fascinating field of study is extrasensory perception.

(Just to possibly preempt dear jocular OFSO here . .. . what do you get when ESP and PMT are found together? A know-all bitch.)


http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8272707&noquote=1)

OFSO
20th Jan 2014, 17:28
dear jocular OFSO is in a serious mode - what about the significance of scent-triggered memories ? I read somewhere that scent is a more powerful "memory stimulus" than anything else. Very useful during exam revision - buy a scent you don't normally use, keep sniffing it while doing your revision, then wear it on exam day. Or so I have been told.

goudie
20th Jan 2014, 17:50
Good thread probes. Rather more cerebral than some on here:ok: