Stop bashing "P2F"

[19_Flying_A_Jet]

I'm 19-years-old. I got a job with easyJet two months after my nineteenth birthday and I now have just over 200 hours on type to go with the 160 I got at OAA. I'm lucky and I believe you make your own luck in flying. This is also based on what I'm told being a third generation pilot with both my Father and my Grandad flying forty-plus year careers with British Airways and it's predecessors.

P2F is the future because it makes no sense in growing older after having just paid all the money you do to obtain a fATPL and sitting on your backside doing :mad:, working menial jobs or taking flying positions that don't allow you do to what you ultimately want - fly a jet. If you are happy to piston pound and fly turboprops all day, fair play, but don't bash someone who invests in their future by paying money for something that ALL the airlines today want - a type rating and hours on type.

It is a gamble but you don't get anywhere without taking a risk. I did not pay for my type rating or my line training and I was lucky that I went straight in from OAA. Others are not as lucky and are making their own luck. If you do not have the money, cannot justify it or are for whatever reason unable to pay for a type rating or hours on type, it's going to be a long wait for you to get a job in this climate on a jet and even if you are able, you'll essentially pay for it through a lesser salary or in another way.

My advice is if you have the money, pay it and take a leap of faith - everyone will eventually have to do the same, you'll just reap the rewards earlier.

[speedrestriction]

* TROLL ALERT *

[Lakhan]

I hear a storm brewing...

...oh nope it's my coffee..

[hobbit1983]

This one should be interesting. ...

[Dukeyboy]

Quite right OP! Its not your fault if you've got more luck in your bank account than the others. Make hay before the airlines go back to using that other currency "skill", whatever that is...

The Great Pilot Shortage of the 21st Century (http://www.getintoflying.co.uk/features/the-great-pilot-shortage-of-the-21st-century)

[172_driver]

19_flying_A_jet …

Narcissism is a term that originated with Narcissus in Greek mythology who fell in love with his own image reflected in a pool of water

[19_Flying_A_Jet]

You're 29 and still flying GA.

When I'm your age, I'll be a TRI/TRE.

Pay the money and get on with it or turn 40 and have no hope. That's all I'm saying...

[justasmallfire]

It is a gamble but you don't get anywhere without taking a risk
If these kind of airlines want the type of inexperienced pilot willing to gamble everything on one shot at getting in ,then they are welcome to them,I hope they still think its a good idea when they gamble their aircraft and passengers lives trying to get in on a bad approach..Let the public decide they should at least know who's up front.
Paying for type ratings,yes I agree with whether bonded or after successful interview with job guarantee,this is the reality now as too many in the past abused the system.

[RedBlueGreen]

I agree.

There's plenty of the 'good ole days' boys on this board, so you only ever hear those who never had to deal with P2F in the first place. They're full of buzzwords but typically their opinions have very little substance.

Even in this thread it's been suggested that you should refuse such schemes. Unfortunately that only works if everyone else does the same. How do people propose we accomplish that? Hold a giant tea party for all unemployed pilots and make them pinky promise they won't do it? Perhaps send round a polite email?

Of course all of those pilots will now need to build hundreds of hours. Thank god there's an abundance of available flying positions worldwide. Hang on, no, that's not true at all, is it?

P2F started a long time ago, probably before the threadstarter even muttered his first word. As with all pilots today, they start their training in a P2F environment. It's all very well lambasting a student for playing the game, but it's a neccessary evil when the alternative is sitting on your arse at home, or managing to find a flight instructors position that doesn't actually cost you money. Of course, in that position they could make a self-congratulatory post on PPrune whilst their ratings lapse and their skills diminish, but at least they'd have the comfort of being congratulated by many who were put through their training and employment without any real financial cost.

The threadstarter didn't create the P2F culture, he just has to live with it.

[cavortingcheetah]

There's a story doing the rounds that new candidates for entry into a certain well known Eiry/Brit regional airline are going to have to provide their own aircraft on loan to the airline.

[Doug E Style]

It's a long time ago since I was 19 but if I remember correctly, I had a bit of humility back then.

[Narrow Runway]

If you are, as you say you are, flying an easyJet aircraft - it won't take them long to read your utterly stupid post and fire you.

Your stupidity has made me laugh my ar5e off.

[Good Business Sense]

I believe you make your own luck in flying.

after having just paid all the money you do to obtain a fATPL

someone who invests in their future by paying

It is a gamble but you don't get anywhere without taking a risk.

take a leap of faith

You didn't make your own luck !

You didn't pay !

You didn't do the investing !

You didn't take the risk !

and finally, you didn't take a leap of faith !

and if, in between leaving school and starting at oxford you earned the money for the course then you have my sincere and humble apologies

[cavortingcheetah]

He's right though, troll that he might be. The guys that made his correctness possible are those that allowed themselves to be bonded to airlines for the type rating in the past. Pilots are the most useless of trade unionists and so the tariff to fly is high.

[Wodka]

Troll or not, truth is he is right sadly. The system has changed forever.

You can't co-ordinate action among low hour pilots because it's akin to herding cats. It's dog eat dog now.

I did the self improver route... glider towing, para dropping and now on a medium TP but don't see myself moving onto jets anytime soon due to the way the system works now. It will take a lot more networking and a fair dab of luck.

At the same time, I know a guy who started more or less same time as me and did P2F with bmi then got into easy. He is now gearing up for a command. His 30k gamble paid off and he is years ahead now in terms of both career and money. He essentially made his own luck albeit with massive stakes.

Whilst I value the varied flying I have done and have had great experiences working my way up the industry, I don't have a pot to pi$$ in and have to be constantly reminded by my boss that there are people queuing round the block for my job if I don't like it.

All told though, I would not change it. My experiences have made me the person I am and the Pilot I am and for that I am thankful. These are my stories to bore people in the cruise with. What will be your stories Mr 19yr old?

[stiglet]

Oh God, please tell me it's a wind up and he's not one of ours.

[Tiempoby]

*Puts popcorn in the microwave*

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

You're 29 and still flying GA.

When I'm your age, I'll be a TRI/TRE.

Pay the money and get on with it or turn 40 and have no hope. That's all I'm saying...

Well, I guess it is enough to ban him, isn't it? This is supposed to be a forum for professionals and future professionals (hopefully).

[Greenlights]

*Puts popcorn in the microwave*

Same for me.
:}

[macdo]

Well that brightened up a soggy afternoon.

The OP's real stroke of fortune was merely an accident of birth.

On we go.....

[A and C]

Daddy buys rich kid a job.............. Company bean counters laugh all the way to the bank.

Been happening in one profession or another for hundreds of years in family's that want to keep those children who can't be trusted with the family money in respectable employment.

[cavortingcheetah]

And why on earth not?
Unnecessary suffering is a remarkable self indulgence usually engaged in by those whom you'd not want in the pointy end.
You can blame British Airways in the beginning for starting the monstrosity of patronage that called itself Hamble.

[NigelOnDraft]

You're 29 and still flying GA.

When I'm your age, I'll be a TRI/TRE.

Pay the money and get on with it or turn 40 and have no hope. That's all I'm saying... Maybe you will be a TRI/TRE... no doubt having willingly paid for all your command then Trainer courses etc.

Hopefully by 40 you might have an expectation that you start to get paid a salary :8

The rest of us want(ed) a career, not an expensive hobby :sad:

[mototopo]

Unbelievable..

Grow up my friend and leave the hard job done by professionals who spent their life suffering and sacrifying, eating mud and studying, traveling abroad and leaving beloved at home...

If you have the bucks for that, lucky you, but for god sake don't tell such bullXXXt and respect other's sacrifices in excelling in aviation, fighting against people like you for a right seat..

[deepknight]

360 hours, and in ten years "I'll be a TRI/TRE" Jeez, the arrogance! In ten years time sonny, maybe - just maybe - you'll have learned enough to call yourself a pilot.

[cavortingcheetah]

At a sort of random guess I'd say there was a parallel here with the pilot of the last century and the soldier pulling the trigger who gets splattered with the blood and guts of his spifflicated enemies contrasted with the pilot of the present, the operator who pushes a button and watches an Afghani or two puff away in the dust of a screen shot from a thousand miles away.
But then again, no one's going to pay US$23million for the reminiscences of the screen jockey which is not that much more than I was offered for mine anyway. All in all a most successful little exercise in salmon fishing with dynamite.

[clunckdriver]

We were thinking of selling our company aircraft and flying comercial, however having read this twits post I think we will actually upgrade aircraft rather than sell, there is NO WAY my staff will be made to sit in the back behind twits like this, good Lord, he might be asked to fly a visual approach on a VFR day with NO ILS! {and we all know what this leads to}, As for the atmosphere in the cockpit with the likes of this imature brat, it doesnt bear thinking about!

[drivez]

No way this is true, and if it is I hope I never have to share a flight deck with the OP.

Second what someone else has said, you didn't make your own luck you bought your own luck with dad's money.

There's nothing wrong with having training paid by your folks if they are in a position to help, it's incredibly lucky. But be grateful and humble about it, instead of taking pot shots at the guys who can't afford and rubbing it in that they are actually learning the trade from the ground up rather than buying into RH seat jet jobs. Instead start saving some money from your shiny job so that one day when your child says he wants to be a pilot you can help him out.

Also if this is real it's probably not going to take many people long to figure out who you are from your description as a 19 year old OAA graduate who's dad flew for BA, combine that with a good dose of arrogance to distinguish yourself further. Enjoy your new found crew room popularity. :ugh:

[cavortingcheetah]

#32 as I write and climbing nicely for the tropopause.

[Anunaki]

That's the problem with this "justin Biebers of the skies",mummy and daddy bought them a career then they come here with their condescending,self righteous, uninvited opinions…..dad fly for BA?I met a few guys like that at CRC,you'll fit right in! :mad:

[FLEXPWR]

Still hard to believe this guy's for real... it's gotta be a joke! Not the P2F thing, but the ATTITUDE. I hope I'll never fly with you with such arrogant mindset, demeaning those who have not had your's parent's bank account, and minimizing the extremely valuable experience (that you will never gain) of flying single pilot over the bush, turboprops in icing, landing on dirt strips, taking real decisions.

Even when you turn captain (surely by the time you reach your 24th birthday, right?), your lack of human consideration, lack empathy for your peers who went through different paths because they did not have your daddy's money, will only attract disdain from others.

Unless you won the lottery, and can then consider yourself extremely lucky in realizing your dreams, chances are you have not purchased the very car you drive to work with, sorry, not work, expensive hobby. You do not pay the rent of your flat or house either. Mom and dad are paying for all this. Any human being with an ounce of humility would rather be discrete about their own situation, should they be in your shoes.

Once again, this is not about P2F in itself, although a highly controversial question which I do not approve. But reading such remarks about the "losers" who can't afford it, this is outright indecent. You are just demonstrating that your money will take precedence over some other pilot who may be twice as competent, or ten times as much experience. This is sad, and I know it is far from a lie, unfortunately.

In a normal (as in not P2F) interview, the recruiters/managers look at the qualifications of the candidate, the experience, but also make sure the a$$holes are screened out, not to contaminate the atmosphere at work.

If seems in this instance that the P2F recruiters did the exact opposite, or maybe they just looked how much money was in the bank.

It all my words seems useless, just remember one thing:

"The a$$es you're kicking on the way up, you'll be kissing on the way down"

If you can't even remember this, not to worry, life will teach and remind you.

Happy landings, top gun.

[Wirbelsturm]

When I'm your age, I'll be a TRI/TRE.


Hahahahaha!!, Hoooohooo. Phew, haven't had such a good laugh in ages.


Sadly for our young 'god of the skies' the CAA/training department and trainers still have a say in who gets to be a TRE/TRI and personality, professionalism and skill play a fairly big part. The amount of £££££'s from daddys APS pension scheme is, by and large, irrelevant.


It's a job, you get PAID for doing a job.


Happy trolling.

[cavortingcheetah]

I say!
You don't suppose that the OP is a woman troll do you?
That might help to explain the resounding subsequent silence although perhaps one had better not go into any further detail in the furtherance of one's investigation into the psychological possibilities and imperfections of the specimen under examination.

[RexBanner]

19 and Flying a Jet I cannot believe I am actually rising to this but just on the off chance you are not a troll or wind up merchant or whatever else you have been called let me just tell you something worth knowing. Your kind of arrogance is detested on the line at easyJet and is one of the reasons Balpa have been pushing hard to get recognition for the hundreds of non rated sound operators at other airlines trying to get into the company.

I went onto a turboprop after completing my training and learnt from some of the best operators I could have ever have wished to fly with. All of them most probably better than you will be at the same age. So don't get carried away with thinking you will be a TRI/TRE, maybe you will be, but you have a shedload to learn first.

I have 2000 hours and am now flying the Airbus. I've worked my way up (to a certain extent) and still I realise that what I know at 2000 total hours (and double the amount of jet hours that you have - NOT MANY) could maybe fill the back of a fag packet. It's called humility, you would do well to learn some.

[Boeing man]

This industry has been destroyed by share holder value commercial greed and bonus culture for management . These young pilots need to wake up and stop paying for permission to fly .They have their frozen Atpl fresh from school all just say no to pay to fly ,airlines will eventual have to change .If people continue doing this slave labour their future earning potential will be very low with even less respect .
I've been in this business for 25 years never had to pay for a type rating but year on year all our conditions are sliding .
Stick together fellow pilots or there will be no future for anybody good luck to all out there it's difficult and it always has been even for my generation and before who started out on this career path .

[PURPLE PITOT]

I want to know what the parents were thinking. It's all well and good buying your brat into a job if they don't have the talent and maturity to do it for themselves, but this is aviation. There's a good chance that the brat might kill themselves, or worse somebody else.

[FLEXPWR]

The title of this thread is all wrong.

It should have been "Please, I am begging for a bashing, and I'll give you all the right reasons for it!"

[BluSdUp]

Did not bother to read Your faritail.
Pay to fly for money has to stop.
I deal with You every day , scary . No pilots, hardley operators.
Good luck ,lets hope You never meet a real Check Pilot.

[deptrai]

Ok, I'll bite. I think it's possible to become a safe and professional transport pilot regardless of how initial training was conducted (military, ga, traditonal ab-initio company sponsored/discounted cadet programs, MPL, and 0-atpl self funded), for those who get hired by a reasonably well managed airline.

At the same time I keep wondering if people who were accepted into a training that is paid for by others, fully or partially, have faced more rigorous selection earlier?

As an example, i read that in Norway a public university offers a 3 year degree in aviation now that gives you a Cpl-ir etc and fATPl, and some added academic knowledge as a bonus. Tuiton is symbolic, 200$ a year or so. Needless to say, seats are limited, lots of people apply, and selection is rigorous. As far as i understand graduates dont struggle to find a job. Same is generally true for military training.

The more you pay for your own training, the less selection there was to begin with, and then when you'll have to face that selection later, there's a risk you'll fail...after having paid a substantial amount of money (and hopefully you wont fail by making a hole in the ground, but just not get hired).

Most of these pay-for-a-license, pay-for-typerating, and pay-to-fly schemes are just a way to postpone selection, in my humble opinion. That doesn't mean that those who go through that way of training can not be excellent pilots, they could have passed the same standards others did, we just dont know, so possibly more selection is needed, for some of them.

[cavortingcheetah]

Or should the thread title have been:
'The Curse of BĀ from the Mummy's Tomb'

[Good Business Sense]

Wonder how smart you are ace ! Hope you've covered your tracks with the info you've offered - rule 1 in aviation it's a tiny community so........ hope, for your sake, most of the following is BS, even if one or two are loosely correct your employer and colleagues will know who you are;

Trained at Oxford
19-years-old
joined easyjet at 19 months 2 years
200 hours with easyjet
so been with easyjet less than 10 months - training + a bit of line flying
Based Gatwick (Crawley)
360 hours total time
Father and Grandfather ex. BA

For what it's worth most command failures are due to attitude

[RedBlueGreen]

Or should the thread title have been:
'The Curse of BĀ from the Mummy's Tomb'

We get it, you think it's BA's fault, regardless of the fact they've never used P2F.

[FLEXPWR]

The thread starter has gone silent... no wait, he/she's busy flying the big jet his dad's money deserves...

As Deptrai mentioned, whatever the background or means, there are excellent professionals coming from all directions. Yet from personal experience, I remember only very few with such an arrogant attitude when they had climbed the ladder from the first rung on their own. Can't say the same for many P2F I have met.

[McBruce]

I have absolutely no doubt the OP at some point in the future will change his views and complain how this all affects salary/T&Cs as he realises just how much this cancer is spreading.

Being still a cadet on type he's obviously not had any hardship from being a contract pilot yet - solely to reduce costs for his employer and shag him out of a package his seniors all achieve(d). Unless his 'sponsors' are still providing that additional income.

What's that you want a command? Ok 10%less, if you don't take it, the other monkey will.

Blind following the blind.

[cavortingcheetah]

No, of course it's not BA, nor BMI nor countless other employers. If the blame is laid anywhere it must surely be at the feet of the very first bonded pilot? The rest is history and human failing.

[deptrai]

Maybe we should not be so hard on the op...people frequent this forum in their spare time, maybe he just spent an entire day drinking with his buddies and posts this on his way to bed...or he was smoking crack (I hope not), but whatever it is that brought out this attitude, better leave it at home, and try to get rid of it.

[Greenlights]

I don't believe that people still give credit to that thread...
popcorns were good by the way :}

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Why are you lot giving this arrogant berk the time of day? Be happy in the knowledge that the easyJet training department will be good enough to weed out attitudes like this. Hopefully.

[Aluminium shuffler]

I agree with the OP. No, really. It's not their fault they are such poor quality candidates that the only way for them to get a job is essentially a £35k bribe. Enthusiasm should always be rewarded, and who could be more enthusiastic than a naive child willing to sell out their family and bankrupt their parents who should be putting money aside for their imminent retirement in order to get a totally unsecured job? And as for integrity, no one is more trustworthy than an individual who so clearly and openly demonstrates their willingness to undercut everyone else in the industry. No, there's nothing wrong with P2F or those who use it...:mad:

[Daygo]

Is it me or has somebody gone very quiet?

[JB007]

A troll I'm sure!

But sadly the arrogance, cocky and total lack of humility is an on-going trend and very real with this generation! Actually had a cadet say to a group of us "I've been flying 2 years now, I shouldn't be doing any tests at recruitment anymore"!!!!! It's very much noticed by those of us who've done lots of light aircraft/instructing and TP. I'm also sure it will be noticed by this generation of TRE's and Line Trainers in a good cultured and professional environment.

Be happy in the knowledge that the easyJet training department will be good enough to weed out attitudes like this.

Sure of it...

[Falck]

Hmmmm, I fly with you.

Attitude is where it is all about. It is not a matter of choice to fly around in pistons or TP for little pay. Most of them dream of flying a Jet. But did not have the same start point as you do. Different time,different country,different situations back than. For sure no MPL.

MPL still has to show all of us what these guys are made of.
EasyJet is very cautious about this and will monitor your skills,ATTITUDE and knowledge.
Your flightschool might have said that you are gods gift to aviation. You are not.

[Calmcavok]

I sincerely hope junior isn't for real. I've heard of this attitude in the newbies, but fortunately have not yet experienced it for real.

FWIW, I did a ULR last month, and between the four of us, there was in excess of 65,000 hours experience in the flightdeck, gained through a mixture of piston, turboprop, regional jet, shorthaul, military & long haul ops. This diverse experience provides a hell of a lot of fall back should the :mad: hit the fan. My point is that, whilst you are bragging about bagging the medium jet by 19, and TRE by 29 (hopefully), you've forfeited a boat load of quality experience to get the shiny jet. Because you have unlikely done anything between school and airline, your wider life experience is also tremendously lacking, meaning you really bring nothing to the party except your SOP knowledge. Admittedly we were all in a similar position at some point or another, but by being aware of your potential shortcomings and massive inexperience, you may show a little humility and reflect upon the luck that has been bestowed upon you. You are where you are as an accident of birth.

As to the merits of your choice of career path, that's up to you and the financial backing you can find. Coming on here and bragging about your relative wealth, making your own luck (you didn't, it was purchased) and being disparaging about others who haven't bought their way into an airline is unsightly and really not cool.

Good luck though, you must demonstrate some decent level of aptitude. But remember, on prune you will see a lot of people refer to the saying "there by the grace of god..." They may not be religious, but reflect on that statement and it's inherent meaning.

[Ollie Onion]

I have never had to pay for a type rating or job and I was also flying a jet very young (20 years old). I don't have an issue as such with P2F except for the fact that it is the sign of a shameful trend of companies 'subsidising' their running costs by playing on the dreams and aspirations of pilot wannabees.

Secondly, it is a real shame that the 'major' selection criteria of these schemes is infact the candidates 'ability' to pay the huge money required. He says with such ease 'just P2F' and get on with it, well sunshine it is not that simple for a lot of the population. It is a shame that potentially great candidates and skillful aviators are closed out of the market due to not having money to buy a job.

Perhaps the biggest draw back of such schemes is it allows people onto the flight deck who ordinarily would not get a look in. Someone who 'crows' from every rooftop to anyone who will listen just 'how great' he is, in my opinion, has no place in an airliner cockpit. It is a recipe for disaster.

[cavortingcheetah]

Mind you though, apart from the troll crowing, what's the difference between someone cruising into an airline job as a divine right on someone else's money and an air force pilot, all of whose training has been at the expense of the public purse, doing the same thing?

[deptrai]

No. I'm not sure what that leads to. Please enlighten us.

JS (A former cadet who flies visual approaches, even *gasp* without the autothrust, at every available opportunity.)

The word "cadet" is used for a lot of different people. I have nothing but the highest respect for those who went through a rigorous selection program to join military aviation. That was the origin of the word "cadet". Many european flag carriers had - and very rarely still have - similar programs, selecting highly talented people for a rigorous training program, a little monetary cost to students. Some training departments prefer to fully control training from very early on, rather than trying to correct and improve people with possibly less than perfect habits.

Opposed to that approach, there is the idea that people should "work their way up" through ga etc - a very popular concept in the us and several other countries. (although i think the military there for some reason also prefers to recruit "cadets"). I have nothing but the highest respect for those who "worked their way up through the ranks" as well.

There seem to be some cultural issues with the word "cadet". For many european airlines, training people from the beginning was traditionally a preferred way to recruit a minimum baseline of future captains. Not because it was cheap, on the contrary, they paid for it.

But once you use the word "cadet" for people who pay for their own training, pay for a type rating, and then pay to fly - thats's something different, maybe I'm nitpicking here, but I feel calling them cadets is a bit misleading.

[cavortingcheetah]

If they exist at all, they were no doubt trained either with the RAF or at Hamble. Thus both being free at point of purchase.

[Training Risky]

Wonder how smart you are ace ! Hope you've covered your tracks with the info you've offered - rule 1 in aviation it's a tiny community so........ hope, for your sake, most of the following is BS, even if one or two are loosely correct your employer and colleagues will know who you are;


Quote:
Trained at Oxford
19-years-old
joined easyjet at 19 months 2 years
200 hours with easyjet
so been with easyjet less than 10 months - training + a bit of line flying
Based Gatwick (Crawley)
360 hours total time
Father and Grandfather ex. BA

For what it's worth most command failures are due to attitude

Careful - the troll could have easily chosen an innocent colleague at Easy, replicated their profile and set them up as a patsy!

what's the difference between someone cruising into an airline job as a divine right on someone else's money and an air force pilot, all of whose training has been at the expense of the public purse, doing the same thing?

I wa awarded my RAF wings at 24, and as deptrai said, had to pass a tough selection process and a rigorous 3 years of training. No amount of the OP's daddy's money would have convinced the board to select me if I was a tool or had crap hand-eye coordination!

[Shytehawk]

19 years old and 200 hours on type and he thinks he is IRE/TRE material. What a complete pain in the ar*e he must be to fly with. Sounds more like an accident waiting to happen.

[Dukeyboy]

CavortingCheetah, are you seriously comparing the process of getting mum and/or dad to pay for flying training, and training with the military?

[somethingclever]

The problem will become apparent to you, my Young friend, when 5 years from now you are overlooked for an upgrade to captain because other pilots are paying 15000 pounds for the privilege. I bet it will be all laughs and giggles when you find yourself flying right seat with a captain who's just bought YOUR left-seat. Oh boy oh boy if those ragged faux-sheepskin seats could speak eh buddy! They'd share a few select cuss words alright.

Or when your company changes aircraft types and you have pale 19-year old DREAMERS crawling over each other eager to pay the conversion fee of 20000 pounds while you stand to the side thinking "Like, WTF mate?"

You will kick and scream and call them w-ores, sell-outs and so on. But you know, it takes one to know one. The next interview you have, the guy will know one thing about you at least. That you will pay for whatever he wants you to pay for.

The point is this and you will remember these words ten years from reading them: Someone else behind you will always have fewer brains and more money than you and they will purchase whatever you think should be earned. To "live their like, dream, mate, innit".

You WILL be paying money one way or the other during your career for:

Uniform
Insurance
Accomodation on night stops
Upgrade to captain
Line-training
Aircraft type changes
Base change
You will see a decline in salary
You will lose your pension plan if you have one

Because other people on this planet are prepared to pay for these things, you will end up paying too. The race to the bottom is happening right now and you my friend are running full throttle and bragging about it. "Like...WTF innit mate, whateva..."


Get it? No? Give it some time.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Someone else behind you will always have fewer brains and more money than you and they will purchase whatever you think should be earned. To "live their like, dream, mate, innit".

.

That about sums up the brave new world of P2F. I bet there are some airlines where for a least some months of the year the training department is the only part of the company that is profitable :ugh:.

Unfortunately the bean counters rule and the only way things are going to change is when there is a smoking hole filled with dead people with an incompetent Pilot Flying that could just keep paying until he passed......

This is the industries dirty little secret that travelers addicted to low fares don't want to know about. However sooner or later the inevitable is going to happen and they are going to demand change.

When that happens mister " I am 19 and I bought my jet job" are going to have to walk the pilot talk. Good luck, with your attitude you are going to need it......

[EpsilonVaz]

So many of you fell for the troll too easily.

[deptrai]

I don't think people care a lot about the particular person who started this thread...great trolling, smoothly written...but the problem is real, and that's what people respond to :rolleyes:

[ANCPER]

Don't you understand the difference? The Airforce Cadet is selected on MERIT, needs to prove that they are worthy of it. Anyone who meets the criteria can apply regardless of circumstance and he/she is PAID the going rate and provides a return of service to their country for which they MAY just forfeit their life, either in a conflict or training for one. :ugh:

[pfvspnf]

The OP sounds like Stalker, he has gone silent for a few weeks.

[Bealzebub]

Having left it nearly 24 hours since the inception of this thread, I am still confused by the title? "stop bashing "P2F." Pay to Fly? I had always assumed this referred to the vanity publishing type of operators in the world, that charge people for a period of line training with no real prospect of remunerated employment at the conclusion of that "training."

In this case, the poster seems to have completed an integrated (presumably MPL) training course at Oxford, as part of that airlines ab-initio cadet programme. The job/placement and type rating, whilst not guaranteed, were an integral part of the course for which he/she was selected. The "P2F" is in reality pay to train. That is pretty much what every civilian pilot does to a greater or lesser extent. These courses are expensive, but the placement and type rating inclusive aspects offset less expensive courses where those elements are anything but integral.

Going back to the content of the post and reading it again after a days hiatus, as well as putting aside any perceptions of "cockiness" etc. He is very probably right. I regularly advise going down the "cadet" route as being the best fasttrack path into career airline flying these days. In those airlines with these programmes, it is often the methodology utilized by the sons and daughters of long incumbent professional pilots. This is in essence what the poster is saying, and to that extent he is right.

The poster perhaps shows a lack of sensitivity to those in a position less fortunate than his own, but nothing he has said is fundamentally inaccurate.
Perhaps he will be an IRE/TRE in 10 years (or less?) Who knows. I have certainly seen people in his position go on to achieve those appointments, and deservedly so.

He or she is 19. Some off the sharp edges will wear off with increased maturity (hopefully!) That, together with an increased degree of self awareness and tact, certainly will, if the poster is to achieve their longer term objectives. However, he hasn't done anything wrong. He has read the market and perhaps followed the advice of others who have done just that.

[VinRouge]

Mind you though, apart from the troll crowing, what's the difference between someone cruising into an airline job as a divine right on someone else's money and an air force pilot, all of whose training has been at the expense of the public purse, doing the same thing?Maybe something to do with getting shot at, having friends killed, living in some pretty awful conditions whilst working under crew duty regs that make the civilian world complaints about EASA regs making you look like a bunch of princesses.

3500 hours military and I've earned every one of them.

[Dukeyboy]

VinRouge thanks for putting it so well. I knew if I started I likely wouldn't have stopped til my keyboard gave in!

[Greenlights]

I agree with Bealzebub. I would add more :

One thing is sure, the job is changing a lot.
Nowadays, we still a multi crew in cockpit just because it's a law.
Companies would be happy to have only one pilot.

So, how they get around the law ? By making cadets paying or P2F. It is as if economically there was only one pilot.
The pilot job is more about supervising now and will be more like this again day after day. One day, with full automation, only one operator will be needed in a cockpit, with ATC remote control in case of problems.
JUst read futur projects, they focus alot on full automation traffic control.

Putting cadets in a cockpit of a shiny jet at 19 y/o show how "easy" it is to be a pilot without experience nowadays.
Pilots became a machine in a machine, by doing all procedures again and again in order (like a music sheet) to get a plane flying.
And it will become more like this, as the sky is full of planes, so the separation minimum will reduce. Then cockpit will become more complex with automation but more simple to manage.

[Captain Boycott]

There is an ongoing tirade on here against p2f im interested in who these threads are referring to. Are there companies out there actually undertaking p2f in the UK in 2014? Or are these threads referring to overseas airlines and pilot positions?

Unless im mistaken, reference seems to be british airlines .... But im struggling to understand which UK based jobs are p2f in 2014?

British airlines recruit ex military, already rated elsewhere, turboprop, instructor and some cadets to top the previously listed up to give a mix of experienced guys/gals with a smattering of inexperienced youngsters? So are these threads referring to p2f schemes abroad. Or am I missing something?

[TeaTowel]

He is right guys. Why should the airlines pay to train people in on their equipment? Dont you know their aircraft make as much money sitting on the ground as they do in the air? In fact why don't the pilots pay for fuel and maintenance as well, after all they are logging the hours and not management.

[captjns]

From a delusional 19 and Flying A Jet


I can only hope that this thread was started by a troll looking to raise the hackles of pilot who got their jobs through honest means.

I'm 19-years-old. I got a job with easyJet two months after my nineteenth birthday and I now have just over 200 hours on type to go with the 160 I got at OAA. I'm lucky and I believe you make your own luck in flying. This is also based on what I'm told being a third generation pilot with both my Father and my Grandad flying forty-plus year careers with British Airways and it's predecessors.There was not luck whatsoever in you getting a job with EZJet. How can you make such a statement? You were not even self sponsored. How much did your Father and Grand Father pay for their jobs?

P2F is the future because it makes no sense in growing older after having just paid all the money you do to obtain a fATPL and sitting on your backside doing http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif, working menial jobs or taking flying positions that don't allow you do to what you ultimately want - fly a jet. If you are happy to piston pound and fly turboprops all day, fair play, but don't bash someone who invests in their future by paying money for something that ALL the airlines today want - a type rating and hours on type.Don't insult this forum by insisting you paid for your training with your own funds. You were fortunate enough to have the financial backing of your family. Poppa and Grand Dad are also a part of the problem rather part of the solution. They are enablers of the system and deserve comment too. Financially, 19 you had your ratings and job handed to you on a silver platter. Too bad your family members, also airline pilots condone the instant gratification route to cockpit rather than honest means through instructing, missionary flying or charter.

It is a gamble but you don't get anywhere without taking a risk. I did not pay for my type rating or my line training and I was lucky that I went straight in from OAA.Enlighten us 19... who footed the bill for your flight training?


How about those who paid for their own ratings, built up time through instructing or charter flying? Don't you think they are more deserving than you? What makes you more eligible for the job them?

Others are not as lucky and are making their own luck. If you do not have the money, cannot justify it or are for whatever reason unable to pay for a type rating or hours on type, it's going to be a long wait for you to get a job in this climate on a jet and even if you are able, you'll essentially pay for it through a lesser salary or in another way. I will say this 19... you were lucky to be born into a family with an aviation background... that it. You are a member of the privileged.

My advice is if you have the money, pay it and take a leap of faith - everyone will eventually have to do the same, you'll just reap the rewards earlier.You are not qualified nor mature to give advise. Don't insult the intelligence of this forum to say you paid for all your ratings on your own. You were most fortunate to have your Pop and Grand Dad help you get to where you are today.

Perhaps 19, your thread should have been a testimonial of thanks to Dad and Grand Dad for sponsoring your training. Too bad for them there was not one acknowledgement to them for their support for you either. That's a sign of ingratitude and immaturity on hour behalf.

As long as there are ungrateful miscreants, such as yourself 19 who are willing to short cut their way into the cockpit, there'll always be P2F schemes.

[tempesta]

19?
shut the :mad::mad:up…..
do you really think you are a professional?
flying a jet is not the dream of the pilots in this forum.
Being professional aviators is the ultimate goal aimed by people here.
Plus its not like you are flying an AV-8 Sea Harrier, right?
So please get humble and learn about about aviation, your attitude is the one of an unsafe pilot, no matter how good your piloting skills are, and i believe easyjet hr would agree.
P2f is ridicoulous. you skip the entire process of being a confident decision maker while flying something smaller than a 320.
And you skip the learning process of the basic flying skills that you ll ultimately need in case your 320 will stop working for you.
So please think again, before you press the mike.:ugh:

[aerobat77]

controversary thread with much fuel to feed the fire.

the very vast majority o people here is a big fan of aviation and would love to fly for a profession but the modern way how this is done never gave them a chance. so of course this people do not support a young guy who was fed with money of his parents to be finally pushed inside a real airliner cockpit where the others have to work on the ground to feed themself and their families and never got a chance inside a cockpit to do what they would love to do . dreams of a better aviation world, the old days and also frustrations about reality arouse.

well, on the one hand this guy is roughly right how the modern aviation works , somebody may like it or not.

on the other hand he may crash and burn when he laughes about people who earn their own money and stand on their own feet but never got a chance , and trying to be mr badass with 19 years opens many opportunities to finally be wrong. the company may not be interested anymore when cashflow ceases and they cannot squeeze more out of him. then you may end up on the street with 200 hours on type and a rating but no hope for a "real" job where you can start to feed yourself and your family.

best regards

[Wirbelsturm]

He's a troll.


He's rolled a contentious 'hand grenade' into a forum where people have deep seated feelings for and against and is laughing at the explosion.


Must admit, a few posts have made me chuckle, especially those who want to 'blame' something, someone!

[captjns]

Wirbelsturm says: He's a troll. He's rolled a contentious 'hand grenade' into a forum where people have deep seated feelings for and against and is laughing at the explosion.
Probably true. Only 2 posts to his credit. I would wager a guess he creates new names before he pulls the pin.


Although when I was with FR, I had a couple of 19 year olds in the right seat. Good humble chaps with level heads, as I recall.

[hec7or]

A TRI/TRE at 29! Great, 36 more years sitting in a box and then you can retire!!

Not thought this through have you?

[JW411]

I usually ignore threads like this and the OP is very obviously a wind-up merchant but I have decided that the time has come for me to comment upon the so-called Wealthy Bank of Mum and Dad syndrome.

Those of you who know me on pprune will remeber that I spent 47 years flying aircraft productively. (I never flew for BA - nor did I ever want to).

One of my sons showed a great interest and an ability to get involved in aviation. I encouraged him and he did all the right things like joining the Air Cadets, delivering newspapers and working in shops.

He went solo at 16 and got his PPL at 17.

He worked in the local flying club and spent his summer holidays baggage handling etc. He would do almost anything to raise money to go flying.

He wanted to go flying in a professional manner. My son is a very nice person (nicer than me) and he had potential (in my opinion) so we sat him down and had a family conference. We calculated what it would cost for him to go through university on a three-year course and what it would cost us to support him to do a fATPL.

We gave him the choice; university or flying.

He chose flying.

I simply could not have afforded the CTC/OAA route so it had to be a modular route for him.

He started off by going up to London every morning to do the ATPL written exams at London Met. He passed every subject first time.

Next, after a great deal of research, he went to Stapleford. He passed his CPL and his IR first time.

He was sitting at the Ops Desk in the local flying club one morning and he was trying to get on to a website to apply for a Boeing 737 course. The website wasn't working very well so he called them up (in Sweden) to tell them how to fix their website (the arrogance of youth). After the technical discussion, he was told, by the way, we have had a dropout - can you be in Stockholm on Tuesday?

He called me at home and I told him to go for it but I warned him that he would have to repay the cost of his type rating course to me. He got his Boeing 737 rating just after his 20th birthday.

Within 2 years he had repaid my wife and I every single penny.

He has now been in the left seat for almost three years without breaking anything and I am very proud of him.

You might not agree with me but I am a pragmatist. At the time my son was seriously involved in pursuing professional aviation, the RAF, which was his first choice, were not even considering recruiting. Neither were BA or any other sensible airlines.

So, in a nutshell, I helped my son when he needed it and he has repaid me in spades.

I strongly suspect that the naysayers on this thread either have no hope of ever persuading anyone in their family, their bank managers or anyone else in the aviation world (or anywhere else) to train them for free or they have already been judged not fit for purpose and been invited to go and grow mushrooms instead.

So how am I to be judged? As an ex-TRI/TRE, I have assessed thousands of pilots in everything from gliders to airliners. I do not consider that I was a
P2F collaborator. I simply supported my son in his flying career and the results have been excellent.

Incidentally, I always find the comments from the "far too young" clan quite interesting. I was a training captain on a four turboprop aircarft in the RAF at the age of 25.

[cavortingcheetah]

What an excellent post!

[TeaTowel]

Bribery - noun
Crime of giving a benefit (e.g., money) in order to influence the judgement or conduct of a person in a position of trust (e.g., an official or witness). Accepting a bribe also constitutes a crime.

[Piltdown Man]

We are all assuming this pleasant little boy will be offered a permanent contract with easyJet. Justice would be where...

[JW411]

bral: Ah yes, but the son I'm talking about wasn't Jamie. This son (the middle one of the three) came along after I had left the RAF. Happy Daze.

[Regulation 6]

I just wrote a cheque for £9k for one years university fees for my daughter.

Am I guilty as well?

[newb1112]

I just wrote a cheque for £9k for one years university fees for my daughter.

Am I guilty as well?


No...

You aren't paying for her to gain employment after she has done her degree, are you?

[Regulation 6]

That's true Newb.

I remember when bonding started in the seventies, I was horrified and thought it would never catch on.

Then paying for a type rating, I was horrified and thought it would never catch on.

Then paying for Line Training - WTF??

It probably has some way to go yet - buying a command? Selling your job to the highest bidder on EBAY? God knows...

I presume it must be something to do with capitalism, but as someone once said, it's the unacceptable face of capitalism

Back to the opening post - it's a wind up. The chap would be very easily identifiable in EZY - surely no-one could be that stupid! And we've all fallen for it!

It all makes me so grateful at how very lucky I've been. 10 types and never paid for a rating. And (I know it's been said before) never did a days work in my life.

[hec7or]

JW

Your son deserves a stimulating and fulfilling career in flying with as many happy memories as you have.

As do we all.

I just can't help thinking that recently, we've all been scammed.

Your son can look to you for inspiration and advice, but spare a thought for those who are out of work and don't have any useful contacts, I hear from the new FOs I fly with that there are a fair number of recent FATPLs who haven't found a position yet, even after a year of looking.

Some training companies guarantee a job for you at the end of the course, but don't tell you what the job is until the last minute and you still have to pay to have the type put on your licence and it may be a single pilot position in the boonies (Africa) and if you turn it down, there goes your "guarantee".

It sounds exciting, but it's not for everyone.

[Pablo_Diablo]

Yeah it´s the slippery slope.

Someone tries.

Others follow.

And it becomes the norm.

The end result is not pretty in some of the companies where pilots have collected a large amount of debt to afford the whole thing in the first place. And some guys cannot even afford to call in sick some months when the hours are low and they manage to catch a flu or cold when they are rostered to fly.

[Icanseeclearly]

Part of the problem with P2F is that the traditional route for pilots. Instructor, turboprop, regional jet then large has all but disappeared.

There are plenty of pilots at my company (turboprop outfit) who would love to move onto jets but the thought of paying puts them off, these are pilots with 1000s of hours who have learned their trade and have a quality that I believe the jet companies should value.

Experience seems to count for nothing unless you have the pounds to back you up, it's all about the money and that's sad.

[parabellum]

Depatrai in post #42 hits the nail on the head. What we have now are some people coming through the system to RHS of jet transport aircraft who would, had they gone the military or fully funded by the airline cadet scheme, failed the 'Biggin Hill' aptitude element, or failed to go solo, or having got to a course then got 'chopped' for failing to reach a minimum standard. All these failures, due to their access to money, are now, or will , one day, be sitting in the pilot's seat on an airliner and that is truly frightening, not to mention the additional load it places on the captain.


By the way, any bets this thread was started by the OP's father? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

[cockney steve]

Ref. Regulation 6's post and others.
back in the day, an airline would have invested a large wedge of cash in training a pilot, only to see their investment walk away to another employerand cash-in on the "free" training......manual trades had apprenticeships...one worked for peanuts and was taught on the job, by a skilled colleague, who's productivity consequently suffered. If the apprentice was bright ,willing and industrious, the lost productivity was recouped and hopefully a profit made (otherwise, why bother employing apprentices?...it's a business, not a charity or school!)

At the end of the apprenticeship, the newly-qualified tradesman could expecta goodly payrise....or, if business was quiet, the employer, having fulfilled his obligation, let the worker go.

So , you see, nothing has really changed....the bond stopped the trainee shafting the trainer...the t/r is really no different to the engineer/mechanic who has to provide his own toolkit (OK, a motor-mechanic can get a good kit for under £ 10K, but he doesn't get anything like a Pilot's wage and works around 1700 hours a year)

Manufacturers do provide training-courses, these are usually only a couple of days and are not cheap, yes the employer usually puts a loyal employee forward and picks up the tab.....the qualification is, like a t/r , only of any value in that franchise....leave the employer, you are then hunting for a job in another location, or start again,on the path of learning the specifics of a new type.


P2F, I can see as an investment for someone young and capable, but it has to be borne in mind that the training investment should be reflected in the wage, spread over ~15 years (don't forget the loss of interest on that capital, or that which you'll pay if you can borrow it.

The elitism has gone out of flying, anyone who is willing to front the money,can train to be a pilot....wether their license will earn them enough to make it a good or wise investment, is another issue.

[parabellum]

The elitism has gone out of flying


Possibly, but please don't fall into the trap of thinking that enough money up front will cover any shortfall in aptitude and an acceptable level of flying skills. With P2F this essential safety net has been removed.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

It is possible that the thread starter is 19 and a pilot at easyJet, but I am a TRE there and I have never met a 19 year-old pilot flying for us. The youngest I have ever met was 21 and exceptionally mature - a great guy. The mere fact the bloke thought to start a thread like says he is not mature and is either a troll or a berk. Given the vast number of vastly superior, unemployed young pilots, I would be most disappointed to find this guy actually works for us - I suspect, however, he does not.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Elitism may have gone out in some ways, but not others. While more new pilots came in over the last two decades from working class back grounds, recent trends are showing a move towards the monnied again. Not necessarily the old money, which may have had a code of conduct, too, but the new money with spoilt kids who have never been told "no".

So, while many new cadets are capable and have good maturity and attitudes, we also see those with poor aptitude or attitude. Unfortunately, what we don't see is those candidates with outstanding aptitude and attitude but working class parents anymore. P2F is a selection system based on financial resources, placing suitability second.

For those who console themselves with regarding it as a necessity in the modern world, it is not. If no-one did it, then it wouldn't exist. It is a symbol of the modern "want it now" culture of greed outstripping common sense. It is also a symbol of innate ego that beginners are willing to cough up so much in order to go straight onto jets, not deigning to get their hands dirty on smaller aircraft.

I get it that we have now ended up at a point where most have to TRSS. I don't like it, and regard myself as fortunate to have been in the right places at the right times to avoid it, even though it was already becoming the norm as I came up. And I see the argument that P2F will be the norm like TRSS is. However, if nobody had agreed to TRSS 15 years ago, then it wouldn't exist now. Just because my generation had too many people willing to fund training departments, that doesn't excuse the new generation doing the same (or their parents who should know better). There is a distinction between TRSS and P2F, too - paying for the rating and training is one thing, but paying to work? Really?

[Three Lions]

Id be very interested to know what the percentage of new hires on jets in the UK come from OAA/CTC each year and what percentage come from the experienced/type rated/military/turboprop/instructor ranks

Is there any way of finding this out?

[Artic Monkey]

And what percentage comes from Europe

[trigger21]

Alexander De Meerkat....if you do however, by chance come across a line check with a 19 year old, for all of our sakes...give him a good slap from us all.

[SID PLATE]

"19 and Flying a Jet" eh? The screen name doesn't indicate much imagination now, does it?
Some of the self financed trainee guys are good, and keen. Some are not.
Like this guy the other day, at FL350 During a quiet time ...
Me: "So how did you get into flying then?"
Him: "Well... I was lying in bed one morning, around 1130, and I thought it was time I did something with my life, so I went and borrowed £120,000 from mother, and here I am!"
Accompanied by supercilious grin.
I couldn't decide which of his eyes to stick my pen into.
He wasn't keen, he wasn't competent, he was crap. He wasn't bothered whether he passed or failed.
In the olden days, he might just have been weeded out at an earlier stage.
Like I said, I've no problem with keen guys willing to learn, but the type above are becoming more prevalent.

[763 jock]

We won't be hearing from this :mad: again. He quit easy and joined NASA this morning.:ok:

[single chime]

Quote: "He quit easy and joined NASA this morning."

On the one-way mission to Mars I hope...

[Mail-man]

I feel sorry for the guy, and all cadets. He's never going to know what it's like to fly an aeroplane, not a computer. After my decade of GA (all single pilot, IFR, singles/twins, pistons/turboprops), I'd only consider an airline outfit when i stop enjoying the job.

[ulugbek-pilot]

Guys give him a break, he must have been day dreaming sitting in front of his PC flight sim

[stiglet]

SID I echo your experience and sentiments regarding some of these new FO's. It all boils down to their attitude and expectations. Some are indeed keen and competent; unfortunately many are like this lad. In my experience they have not grasped the idea of being part of the team and just want to be seen posing as 'the' pilot. My apologies to the many who are indeed a pleasure to fly with.

[Aluminium shuffler]

All new FOs at my employer are cadets, not experienced - they stopped taking experienced FOs a fair way back. The bulk of the Brits are OAA, and to be fair the vast majority are very well adjusted.

There are also cadets from other countries, one Nor-Nor-West country which seems to specialise in producing very young, extremely arrogant kids, many of which are untrainable, arguing with TREs and LTCs alike. These are the ones who turn up scruffy, spend too much briefing time strutting in the terminal and too much turn-round time posing to embarking pax and chatting up the cabin crew. They are also prone to bringing in Go-Pro type cameras for their YouTube and Facebook videos, thinking that they are pin-up stars. They are typical products of that nation, but even from there we do see some that are very good to work with.

Cadets don't seem any better or worse on average than the experienced FOs I saw in other companies, as long as they have a good attitude. Where the difference lies is in how experienced FOs who have worked their way up have usually had enough experience to knock any attitude problems out of them and be more mature about their behaviour than the gobby minority of cadets.

Still, while average quality seems to have dropped little, TRSS and P2F will exclude many better candidates just because they can't afford to subsidise the industry.

[19_Flying_A_Jet]

LOL - you guys are killing me with your issues.

I'm 19 and I fly a jet. Don't care what you have to say - never will.

Now quit bashing me and P2F when I made a good argument for it (I never actually did it but I think it's a good idea).

Got to go - Geneva calls.

Have fun sitting at home and writing about me - I'll be sitting in the clouds enjoying the view.

[drivez]

Put the popcorn back on guys. This one could get long!

p.s. enjoy Geneva, 19 years and 2 months, easy jet FO based in Gatwick went to OAA and who's dad flew for BA. I really hope that is a very elaborate back story, otherwise your stupidity dumbfounds me. :ok:

[ulugbek-pilot]

Wow, he really is barely 19 years old, sounds like somebody's taking him to a fun ride

[Tiempoby]

The Dutchness is strong in this one.

[Lakhan]

"It is a gamble but you don't get anywhere without taking a risk."

I'm also 19. Can you or your dad lend me around 120k to complete my training? Would you like to take that risk?

[one post only!]

Looked at departures to GVA and the crew, 19 is a troll. Entertaining one though....

I look forward to your future work sir.

[Hernando]

who cares how old this guy is! its the same for all guys at easyjet, ryanair, thomson etc..

IT'S ALL PAY TO FLY...

with the exception of some who came through the forces, and one or two through BA FP, we all paid..

Who got their PPL, CPL IR etc paid for...?

who got a salary while doing the above... lest than 5% of us under 35...

[Artie Fufkin]

Looked at departures to GVA and the crew, 19 is a troll. Entertaining one though....

I think that much was obvious 7 pages ago.

[clunckdriver]

The outfit I flew for during many years of great working conditions, good well maintained aircraft, good benifits and pay, and the very best guys/galls to work with tried a "direct entry" hire as an experiment many years ago, the best comment I ever heard came from an ex RCAF, DFC and Bar captain who was a joy to fly with, when asked by the chief pilot what he thought of these F/Os S/Os he replied thus. "Some are OK, but really struggle with basic flying skills, however the bigest problem I see is getting their :mad: heads through the cockpit door!" He passed away recently, one of the best!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Simple solution for dweebs like this is to only let them P2P2.

There you go young lad, you've paid one hundred and twenty grand to be the radio operator and that's what you'll be until your attitude is adjusted.

[Hernando]

ok so the line is drawn at line training is it then?

how many of these easyjet/ryanair/wings cadets are now BA? or emirates a380? or now captians, TREs etc on 6 figure salaries?

This is how it is...

depending on who is complaining, the goalposts are moved all the time to suit the complaint..

In this industry you have to remain competitive..

[Three Lions]

Its all irrelevant. If you dont go through OAA or CTC its highly unlikely you will secure a job in the UK flying a jet. Thats the top and bottom of it.

[Mickey Kaye]

"Its all irrelevant. If you dont go through OAA or CTC its highly unlikely you will secure a job in the UK flying a jet. Thats the top and bottom of it."

That is simply NOT true.

[DrJones]

"Its all irrelevant. If you dont go through OAA or CTC its highly unlikely you will secure a job in the UK flying a jet. Thats the top and bottom of it."

That is simply NOT true.


It's probably not true now but I think not to far in the distant future it will be extremely hard to secure an Airline Jet Job unless you go to the likes of OAA and CTC.


I do think you probably still be able to go modular and work you way up the ladder in Corporate though, but if the allure of big shiny jets is what you want Corporates probably not the way forward as you will not be able to apply for jobs because you will be lacking time on type.

[RexBanner]

Superpilot BA stopped taking cadet pilots from Oxford over five years ago and I should know seeing I was at the meeting with John Monks when he announced the end of the SSP programme. Since then they have recruited once, in 2011, in which they took exclusively Direct Entry (type rated however) pilots. So your information on the cadet story at Oxford is a little out of date.

Not going to argue with you on the FPP score though as obviously that is also recruitment albeit a further time in advance.

And would you like to know about the 40+ year old ex Naples Air Center graduate employed by easyJet in their latest recruitment drive? Yes there are some rules that seem to be in place but they do not universally apply and there are exceptions. This forum is so damn negative all the time that it makes me want to delete my account and never visit again!!

[JW411]

Didn't I read somewhere that the new BA cadet scheme (FPP) requires the candidate to put £84,000 up front? This will be repaid over a period of seven years, which is fine but you still need £84,000 to get your foot on the ladder.

Is that not still the case?

[Station_Calling]

Jet2 hire a mixture of experienced and OAA/CTC but probably hired less than 50 pilots during the whole of 2013

Complete rubbish.

[maxed-out]

Oh gawd.. some people love digging in posting history. What he's written doesn't even make sense.

[JB007]

Jet2 hire a mixture of experienced and OAA/CTC but probably hired less than 50 pilots during the whole of 2013

Close....

129 pilots Winter 13/14, all experienced non/type-rated. Zero experience through internal Pilot Apprentice postings.

[Three Lions]

So is the phrase p2f actually incorrect? Any info? Are there actually any p2f schemes in place in the UK or has their been for the last 5 years?

On a further note, and upto now there isnt one fact on this whole thread that actually stands scrutiny why a company would want to lean so heavily toward unknown untried manpower against those with experience/life skill as you would find in other careers in the UK. In fact. Id go as far as to say some of the rationale trotted out to defend why such a large percentage of inexperienced resource would be perceived as more suitable than from other areas insults not only the pilot' intelligence but the industry as a whole

Nor would it stand scrutiny in any other industry either. Typically most recruitment in the UK overall job market is heavily from experienced ranks with some lesser recruitment from new hires/apprentices/trainees/cadets etc this is essential to give youngsters chance to make a career and keeps a flow of resource that takes succession planning and experience building into account

Its hard to argue the way forward is to recruit a higher percentage of inexperienced guys in this industry only

There is only one reason for this leaning towards the inexperienced and its incorrectly stated in this thread as age. Nor would I guess is it ability. I dont actually believe there are p2f schemes in operation in the UK at this time nor have there been for years. I also dont believe the threadstarter is someone shouting the virtues of p2f.

Ill stand corrected if anyone can post up a company who is running a p2f scheme in the UK. Im not aware of one. And personally dont recall hearing of one since about 2009? Again ill stand corrected

[Hernando]

The point is all these guys were ex ryanair or ex easyjet.

Ok let's say 10% were 135 hour experienced cadets..

That's 90% P2F.... This year or the last 5 years...

[bop319]

Don't worry guys. If this guy's for real he might be deemed "culturally unfit" at one point or another. And since he's most probably the proud holder of an MPL license it still says "EasyJet only". See how far this will then take him....

[clunk1001]

Three Lions -
Ill stand corrected if anyone can post up a company who is running a p2f scheme in the UK

The " roll up, roll up, get y'er 500 jet hours 'ere, get 'em while they're 'ot " days might be gone. However, a broader definition of "Paying to Fly" might be :

1) If a company/training department makes a profit from hiring you.
e.g. new entrant charged 26k for training which actually cost the company 16k to provide. This is really : Type Rating 16k, Joining Fee (P2F) 10k

or,

2) Accepting grossly reduced Ts&Cs in order to undercut others to get hours.
e.g. if the market rate for a position is 30k, and someone accepts it at 15k just to get in the door in front of someone more qualified.
This is pretty much the same as saying : Salary:30k, annual P2F deduction : 15k.

So, in a broader context, it's pretty rife.
But you are spot on - it would not stand scrutiny in any other industry.

What is interesting is that the industry has realized that pretty much any monkey with money can sit in the right hand seat and push buttons. And it is therefore paying peanuts.

However, I would say this is only possible due to the level of competence in the left hand seat.

In 15 years time it will be very interesting to see the shift when the P2F brigade pay for their upgrades and are faced with the same challenge.

[RVF750]

...I suspect the market will explode for Ex-pat Chinese and Middle Eastern Direct Entry Captains to come here and fill the void left by unsuitable local candidates...


Now wouldn't that be sweet justice for some.........

[Bealzebub]

I agree with Three lions, and made this point back in post number 74. The thread starters use of "Pay to fly" is something of a misnomer, and is being used (or misused) to mean whatever anybody wants it to mean. I am not aware of any companies in the UK that offer "packages of line training" as a stand alone product.

The "broader definition" offered by clunk1001, simply exemplifies the definition of retail mark up in example one, and switches to supply and demand based remuneration, in example two. Both of these are almost universal constants across all forms of industry and commerce.

However, I would say this is only possible due to the level of competence in the left hand seat.

In 15 years time it will be very interesting to see the shift when the P2F brigade pay for their upgrades and are faced with the same challenge.

Well, having already witnessed the evolution of these cadet programmes from the front row for the last 15 years, what has happened? Those cadets are now in the left seat. They are experienced and competent. They are (in many cases) todays training captains and management pilots. Their experience and competence led them to those positions. Unlike the costs of training that put them in a position to start as cadets, they have since progressed just like anybody else, and haven't had to pay for anything training related since. If you want a glimpse of the future, take a look at the past, and then follow the evolution of that expansion.

[DrJones]

So is the phrase p2f actually incorrect? Any info? Are there actually any p2f schemes in place in the UK or has their been for the last 5 years?


I know the Company's know longer exist but didn't My Travel and Astraeus have a P2F line training program?


I seem to recall one of My Travel cadets having an incident going into a Greek Airport.


I personally think sometime in the future that the likes of OAA and CTC will run line training programs. There is certainly a lot of Wannabes with the cash to blow on overpriced courses , so why don't they start running courses and screw the individual and industry further ?

[clunk1001]

I'm sure nobody will argue that the 'pay for hours' schemes are dead in the uk. And we are indeed each making our own interpretation of what the OP meant by 'P2F'.

However...
retail mark up
Perhaps you've missed my point, or I've failed to communicate it - an employer charging employees over the odds for a course or equipment in order to make a profit from them is not 'retail markup'. (Unless you're one of the management team responsible for these schemes, in which case you probably would call it 'retail markup' so you can sleep better :)).

supply and demand based remuneration
The aviation industry is not unique in its oversupply of qualified applicants. But it is pretty unique in the lengths it goes to exploit them.

I work across many industry sectors and can assure you these practices in Aviation are pretty unique to Aviation.

almost universal constants across all forms of industry and commerce
No, the difference in most other industries ('professions' is probably a better word) is that the priority is to get (and keep) the right people, not the cheapest people (or the people who can afford to buy their way in, which I think is more along the subject of this thread).

I do concede my point entirely about experience in the left hand seat. A very interesting first-hand account about cadets over the past 15 years Bealzebub.
But, if we assume that the OP is not referring specifically to 'pay for hours' schemes, and is referring to the increasing practice of hiring 19yr old 200hr cadets to fly jets, then your observations would seem to support his original post - i.e. everyone should stop bashing it, because the practice works. You really do sound like management :hmm: :)

[Gretchenfrage]

However, I would say this is only possible due to the level of competence in the left hand seat.

Ahhhh, the left hand seat on Air France and Asiana, great display.
Both might not be directly involved in a P2F, but the effect described by clunk is leading down the same fatal path.

P2F and the dismantling of the real assessment and training ways can only be described by one and only word: Cynicism.

We can't blame the individual who participates in that numb game, just as we could not blame the individual officer participating in a certain party 70 years ago, can't we??

It's the system and the system is always described to be us, in our democracy, isn't it??

:yuk:

[clunk1001]

DrJones,

Are there actually any p2f schemes in place in the UK

Some UK training organisations do offer this. (There are several links which I probably won't be allowed to post here. But you can find them easily enough through google).

Most send candidates to Europe for the flying.

I believe at least one scheme is (was?) run by a current EZY TRE. :hmm:

Whether this 'true' form of P2F is what the OP was talking about is another question.


edit...
many are scams which take the money but dont deliver the flying, (one to google). No sane person would go down that route so it is effectively dead in the uk.

[Bealzebub]

Perhaps you've missed my point, or I've failed to communicate it - an employer charging employees over the odds for a course or equipment in order to make a profit from them is not 'retail markup'. (Unless you're one of the management team responsible for these schemes, in which case you probably would call it 'retail markup' so you can sleep better )

Perhaps we need to rewind slightly? Employees are not employees until they are employed. If it is conditional that the potential employee qualifies themselves (with whatever qualifications are necessary) before they can be employed, then whoever sells them that qualification and at what profit margin (if any) is entirely different. I am not part of the management team responsible for these matters. In the case of our cadet pilots, we provide them with all of their training, gratis! That includes the full type rating, allowances for the training course, hotel accommodation, uniforms, line training, etc. I think they may be expected to bring their own Biro, but if they forget I am sure we would happy to provide that as well. I am also reasonably sure the management team have few problems sleeping at night, and if perchance they do, I doubt it is over the provisions we make for cadets.

Other companies may require that cadets or employees do satisfy specific criteria such as type ratings before they can be admitted or employed. They may well offer such qualification at cost, subsidized, or at full retail pricing. That is a matter for them, but it is only "P2F" in so much as any other part of the training that places the candidate in a position to carry out a job, as opposed to being incurred as a part of that employment, is. It is an important distinction and one that the Inland revenue (by way of further example) is also quite adamant about.

No, the difference in most other industries ('professions' is probably a better word) is that the priority is to get (and keep) the right people, not the cheapest people (or the people who can afford to buy their way in, which I think is more along the subject of this thread). That isn't what happens. The fact that a candidate has fiscally resourced themselves through a very expensive course of training, most certainly does not obligate or commit the potential employer in any way to them. Unless they are also "the right people" and demonstrate the standards expected of them, they are simply let go. It is a very steep learning curve at this level, and the commitment and performance expected of the candidates is high. Nobody (on either side) wants failures, and the input control (selection, training, monitoring, mentoring) is extremely important. "Buying your way in" is irrelevant to the potential employer unless those other criteria are satisfied.

if we assume that the OP is not referring specifically to 'pay for hours' schemes, and is referring to the increasing practice of hiring 19yr old 200hr cadets to fly jets, then your observations would seem to support his original post - i.e. everyone should stop bashing it, because the practice works. Yes. It does work. Again, and in our specific case, we balance recruitment across three sources. Those are: Cadet pilots from a recognised FTO; Experienced type rated pilots looking for career advancement; and experienced non-type rated pilots (including military leavers) looking for career advancement. Other companies will balance their own recruitment portfolios to suit their own individual requirements.

In the case of cadets, they are typically mid twenty year olds. Either university graduates, or (in some cases) in-lieu of university trainees. A few are in their late teens, and a few in their Thirties and older. Referring to my reply in post number 74 again, I would agree that in essence the Original poster was right. That has certainly been our experience for a decade and a half, and continues to be.

[Three Lions]

So P2F is not actually the problem in the UK and it would appear the general consensus is that it hasnt really existed in the UK now for a number of years.

The major fact remains, that for those with an understanding of wider UK "professions" the percentage of inexperienced against experienced with regard to hiring in the UK airlines is an unusual practice

Just a closing thought from me, when p2f was sent packing in disgrace from the UK recruitment scene a few years ago - and quite rightly so - who filled the void?

was it pilots from the rated/experienced/exmilitary/turboprop/instructors gang?

Perhaps more accuracy with the thread title is required next time. Its not p2f

[Captain Boycott]

According to two family members within the health industry in the UK, in medicine and nursing the bulk of vacancies are filled by experienced people. That dont pay to train or to work. Trainees although a much smaller group dont as a rule pay for any training however it is very much a smaller group than that for experienced people

Sorry John Smith you are wrong about that part. Im sure there are people in here with more than just an aviation career in their back pocket who may beable to advise about whether the remainder of your statement is accurate.

Would you be attempting to pull the focus of the thread adrift by any chance?

[favete linguis]

I believe at least one scheme is (was?) run by a current EZY TRE. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

A certain jonathan curd and still peddling p2f apparently, but further afield in Greece and Bulgaria.

Not only that, but got into trouble (http://www.curdowes.me.uk) over it too.

[cumbrianboy]

I'm trying to resist adding to the fire but wanted to make a point / ask a question...

So, I'm a newly qualified CPL/IR. And like '000s of other CPL/IRs out there looking at what to do next. Now, I'm not stupid, I'd like to think far from it, and I entered into the training in complete knowledge that this stage now would be the hardest, but you're never quite prepared for just how hard it is.

As for pay to fly, I think if I am flying, or co-flying an aircraft, and someone has paid for the load to be carried (ie. fare paying passengers or revenue generating freight is in the back) then the crew should be paid. Otherwise it is purely driving up the profit of the operator and exploiting the pilot. And if an operator can not survive and pay the crew then you should ask if their business is viable - would cabin crew pay to fly and who get;s who out of the schtick when it all goes pear shaped?

if the aircraft is flying for the purposes of training me, or purely for the purpose of furthering my career (and is a pure cost centre with no revenue generated) then I can see an argument for my making a contribution to this cost.

As for type ratings, yes I can see some argument for some derisking of the costs for the operator, after all what if they rate me and then I bugger off, but this can be contracted to be in both parties interest.

[Captain Boycott]

John Smith.
Ill have to take your word on 12k in the law profession, I do not have access to people in that particular profession

I can assure you the bulk of nurse/medicine jobs are filled by experienced people. Or it would seem in two separate locations in the UK

The fact that your particular location doesnt have enough experienced people available for vacancies, unless ive missed something doesnt really add any value to an arguement about inexperienced pilots been preferred over experienced pilots. The difference here is there are plenty of experienced pilots from the UK in both airlines and on types.

If thats the situation where you are fine. We can agree to disagree. Prob best we just move on and not allow the focus of the thread to be altered. Which I think for some reason is what you are trying to do.

[TheBigD]

Simply not true. For certain positions, yes, but there simply aren't enough experienced people to fill all the jobs going.

And therein lies the rub, JS. In aviation, there ARE enough experienced people to fill in the vacancies. But quite a few companies are doing quite the opposite with respect to their hiring practices.

[Bealzebub]

So, I'm a newly qualified CPL/IR. And like '000s of other CPL/IRs out there looking at what to do next. Now, I'm not stupid, I'd like to think far from it, and I entered into the training in complete knowledge that this stage now would be the hardest, but you're never quite prepared for just how hard it is.

The answer is simple. "Come back when you have at least couple of thousand hours and significant jet or heavy turbo-prop experience." That is the answer you are likely to get from a lot of airlines. It has been the same answer for decades!

At the ab-initio level, some of these companies will offer apprenticeship "cadet" programmes, but they are very specific.

As for pay to fly, I think if I am flying, or co-flying an aircraft, and someone has paid for the load to be carried (ie. fare paying passengers or revenue generating freight is in the back) then the crew should be paid. Otherwise it is purely driving up the profit of the operator and exploiting the pilot. And if an operator can not survive and pay the crew then you should ask if their business is viable - would cabin crew pay to fly and who get;s who out of the schtick when it all goes pear shaped? How much were you thinking of? How much do you consider you are worth in relation to an experienced pilot with many thousands of hours? How much was your "paid for" type rating worth? Do you consider the probationary 6-8 month period worth the prospect of a contract at conclusion? Take a look at those other "professions" that are promoted by way of example. Take a look at internships, apprenticeships, placements, etc. They are all a part of the training regime leading to the more rewarding parts of those respective "professions."

Far too many people have deluded themselves that a CPL and 250 hours is the natural passport to the right seat of an airliner. It isn't and it never was.

[clunk1001]

Far too many people have deluded themselves that a CPL and 250 hours is the natural passport to the right seat of an airliner.

I thought that was the whole point of this thread? that it is becoming the natural passport?

It isn't and it never was.
It will be. :p


Edit...as long as you've given your money to the right training providers that is.

[FMSPEED]

I'm a product of the low hours industry, but i never paid anything for a rating,whatsoever… i just think that that's what brought the industry down (for us pilots)throughout the years, big companies in the ME and Asia, only asks for TR pilots with hours on type. and wannabe pilots specially in europe are going for this kind of thing for many many years..They start entering some airline in Europe like Easy or Ryanair(paying for the TR) get some hours and then they go straight to a wide body somewhere else...That's why companies wants only TR pilots with hours on type, because there's a whole bunch of pilots to supply them with this kind of scheme… Pilots like me are having a hard time trying to fly abroad because of this… If you don't have an Airbus or Boeing rating you're basically out of the market for the big companies in the ME and Asia..even if you fly an embraer,CRJ or other jet.. Companies completely lost interest on this kind of pilots because they gonna need a full type rating on the Boeing or Airbus wide body istead of a short course… :ugh: Here's just my 2 cents..