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waveskimmer
17th Jan 2014, 22:25
And why not, she was our last politician and true leader with guts, balls and a patriot


Yahoo News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/margaret-thatcher-day-thousands-oppose-renaming-bank-holiday-130711343.html#BKB3OJa)

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 22:33
Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill were in the same league. They both saved the UK.

I'm on board with any and all recognition of her vital contribution both to saving the UK from being overcome by left-wing zealotry and, in partnership with Ronald Reagan, winning the Cold War.

Wherever you are, Great Lady Thatcher, three cheers and a hearty salute!

Lantern10
17th Jan 2014, 23:14
Not everyone agrees with that.

Liverpool fans chanting When Maggie Thatcher Dies - YouTube

charliegolf
17th Jan 2014, 23:17
My daughter's 4th anniversary today- why would I clutter that enjoyment thinking about ANY politician?

CG

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 23:39
Could you possibly be proud of that display, Lantern10? To me it represents not the worst of the left, but a mild reminder of what we're up against.

bedsted
18th Jan 2014, 00:09
I’m with Waveskimmer and BenThere, Margret Thatcher:ok: was a true, great leader.

llondel
18th Jan 2014, 02:07
One of the things that scares me the most about the idea of a Margaret Thatcher Day is that the other lot will retaliate by giving us a Tony Blair Day to go with it once the precedent is set.

Dak Man
18th Jan 2014, 02:25
She's an emotive subject so I'll say my piece and bow out. I'm with Caco on Thatcher, good for Britain disastrous for Brits and I wouldn't waste a good turd on Blair boet.

Capetonian
18th Jan 2014, 04:54
I am all for one of the country's greatest leaders of all time being remembered, and a public holiday seems as good a way as any other.

Those who are opposed to the idea could show their opposition by ignoring the holiday and doing a day of unpaid work, in the true spirit of socialism.

Caco : Pasop. Whatever your political views about Mrs. T your remarks have crossed the line. Mind you I admit to double standards as I think your comment about Bliar is quite acceptable.

sitigeltfel
18th Jan 2014, 09:04
I suggest they move the the Socialist festival of celebration from May 1st to April 1st....... All Fools Day. ;)

Krystal n chips
18th Jan 2014, 09:14
" Daft Idea.
Nothing to do with all the usual left - right bollox the idiots in here always use as an argueing point (
The simple fact is we don't name Public holidays in Britain after people.
Do we have Winston churchill day?...no we don't

Stop being silly

Now that, is a remarkably sensible suggestion based on fact.:ok:

The denuded who wish to celebrate the ( unlamented in mine, a several million others in the UK, case) deceased can do so whenever they wish.

The rest of the population do not need have this foisted on them however.

Why set an unwarranted precedent by naming holidays after any politician ?

PTT
18th Jan 2014, 09:16
Socialist festival of celebration from May 1stMay 1st was a celebration in the UK well before it was coopted by socialism.

There are many, many more Brits deserving of a named public holiday ahead of Margaret Thatcher: nobody but the most ardent fanatic would reasonably claim that she's the top of the "most deserving" list. Either way, as Lone says, we simply don't name holidays after people: we put them on money instead. Thatcher on a £50 note would almost be funny: only the rich would get to see lots of her :ok:

tony draper
18th Jan 2014, 09:20
Field,Red Rag,Bull.:rolleyes:

Wingswinger
18th Jan 2014, 09:24
Why set an unwarranted precedent by naming holidays after any politician ?

Just about the only thing I suspect K&C and I would agree on. It's not the British way. Remember Hague's idiotic idea of renaming Heathrow "Princess Diana Airport"? No. Don't do it. Patron Saints yes. That's all. Celebrate that which unites us, not that which divides. PS I am an MT fan BTW.

Windy Militant
18th Jan 2014, 10:36
I suspect that this may be an SNP ploy to guarantee Scottish devolution, closely followed by Wales, the North East and Cornwall.
Although there are those who think she should be canonised there's already a St Margaret and a St Hilda so that puts the kibosh on that.
If there was to be a Politician granted this dubious honour then it should be Churchill he united the country, not divide it so deeply that thirty years on it still causes acrimony.

Capetonian
18th Jan 2014, 10:49
As South Africa has named its main airport after a terrorist, and another after a Zulu warrior.

rh200
18th Jan 2014, 10:49
Why set an unwarranted precedent by naming holidays after any politician ?

Absolutley, as much as I love the old battle axe it would set a bad precedent.

As for reasons for liking her, I only have two, one emotional and the other is more philosophical.

The first is ,she got back the Falklands, well actually she got the military to do it.:p

The second is not really given enough credence. What Thatcher did was prove a woman could be PM or head of government in our country's, at a time when there was undisputed male dominance. This was done without any of the huggy fluffy stuff.

All it took was a women who had the drive and guts to fight their way there. Twenty or so years later we got one, and how did she turn out pathetic, moaned about being hard done by.

B Fraser
18th Jan 2014, 10:51
Basil,


Calling Liverpool Speke airport John Lennon International was an inspired decision. "Imagine no possessions" has a certain irony.

radeng
18th Jan 2014, 10:52
If the task force had failed to re-take the Falklands, she would have been reviled by all sides. As it was, if she had had her way in selling off warships to India, by September 1982, it would have been impossible to send the task force. If Galtieri had waited six months, they really would be the Malvinas in more than just the Argentinian name.

And this load of idiots we have at the moment seem hell bent on going the same way as far as downgrading the armed forces are concerned......

Checkboard
18th Jan 2014, 11:04
... and Australia would have an aircraft carrier, as HMS Invincible had already been sold to Oz - the UK reneged on the deal to send it to the Falklands, and later to maintain a carrier force.

Sunnyjohn
18th Jan 2014, 12:10
I had no idea that such a bill was proceeding through the House and, like, I suspect, most other good citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I thought it was a joke. Fortunately, it will not succeed. I do think, however, that Baroness Margaret Thatcher of Kesteven In The County of Lincolnshire (deceased) should be converted to Catholicism posthumously and made a saint, thus joining the panoply of other beings who have been deemed by the Pope of the time to necessitate sainthood.

Lon More
18th Jan 2014, 14:14
That's done it! Any minute now we'll get the bearded lefty Lon More on here fulminating and having conniptions over the mere mention of Mrs Thatcher.

Nice to see I can upset the usual idiots just by existing.:) Check your blood pressure numpty.


South Africa has named its main airport after a terrorist

Terreblanche International?

Capetonian
18th Jan 2014, 17:06
Really Lon, your knowledge of recent South African history is pitiful !
Quote:
South Africa has named its main airport after a terrorist
Terreblanche International?

Lon More
18th Jan 2014, 17:14
Really Lon, your knowledge of recent South African history is pitiful

but easily surpassed by your understanding of irony

http://www.minorityperspective.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/c824ff9ec0914976.jpg

I wonder where he got the idea for the flag from? Not the IoM I suspect. One less white terrorist (http://www.minorityperspective.co.uk/2010/04/07/one-less-white-terrorist-the-death-of-eugene-terreblanche/)

Capetonian
18th Jan 2014, 17:24
Racist ET may have been but to call him a terrorist is stretching things a bit, more than a bit in fact!
I heard him speak in public several times, he spoke excellent but strongly accented English, and was one of the most charismatic speakers - and quite entertaining - that I have ever had the pleasure of listening to.

Lon More
18th Jan 2014, 17:38
one of the most charismatic speakers

as was Hitler I understand

Mr Chips
18th Jan 2014, 17:48
as was Hitler I understand
Yes,Hitler was a text book charismatic leader. Doesn't mean anyone is saying he was a good man, just that his leadership style was charismatic

Super VC-10
18th Jan 2014, 18:56
Maggie Thatcher

a) stole my milk :confused:
b) got us in to a war.:\ Churchill, on the other hand got us out of one!:D
c) shoved my mortgage rate up to 15%:=

If we are to have anothe Bank Holiday, it should be 21 October = Trafalgar Day.:ok:

Krystal n chips
19th Jan 2014, 04:57
Well, since, the ahem "leader" has been mentioned .....

Eugene Terre'Blanche | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/15865250)

I have to agree, he was indeed entertaining.....never more so than when he parted company with his horse !....the horse was probably as amused as the rest of us, and no doubt relieved, to get rid of the excess weight at the time.

And of course, those who sing his praises and attended his meetings, presumably did so due to the affinity of having similar traits to the "leader"........ It does, after all, take one to know one as they say.

Seldomfitforpurpose
19th Jan 2014, 05:21
Maggie Thatcher

a) stole my milk :confused:
b) got us in to a war.:\ Churchill, on the other hand got us out of one!:D
c) shoved my mortgage rate up to 15%:=



Same here but as she also enabled my mum and dad to buy their own home I hold none of the above against her and she will always have my respect :ok:

OFSO
19th Jan 2014, 08:03
just that his leadership style was charismatic

Once upon a time, a German lady told me of her experience of standing in a crowd watching Hitler drive slowly past. She said it was extraordinary: when his eyes passed the crowd, for one moment it was as if she was the only person there for him. Talking to friends and neighbours standing alongside they all felt the same thing. Even making allowances for Germanic pro-Hitler hysteria at the time, he certainly had some kind of mesmeric power.

I doubt if the Iron Lady was in the same class.

Lon More
19th Jan 2014, 08:39
I doubt if the Iron Lady was in the same class.

same school, just a few years apart

funfly
19th Jan 2014, 09:40
Margaret Thatcher day?
Surely this thread should be moved to the Friday Jokes :rolleyes:

Lancelot37
19th Jan 2014, 15:11
The removal of the school milk was proposed by Labour when they were in office. They were kicked out and the Bill was submitted to Parliament and went through with a massive majority, with full Labour support.

Capetonian
19th Jan 2014, 15:49
In the fervour to blame Mrs. T for every ill that beset the UK since she emerged onto the political scene, right up to the present, many seem to forget that the rot started under 'Labour' and she was handed a poisoned chalice.

The removal of school milk was not at her instigation, and it's a pretty petty matter in comparison to the things that mattered. Many schoolchildren hated milk and a lot of it was wasted, and also at some point, which may have coincided, but I don't remember, milk was demonised as being bad for children - utter drivel of course.

I think it was under the government of that fat pipe smoking gnome Wilson, who by the way like so many 'socialists' lived very comfortably in Hampstead Garden Suburb, that the abolition of milk in secondary schools commenced.

Krystal n chips
19th Jan 2014, 16:05
" and she was handed a poisoned chalice. "

I suppose some would get terribly upset if the words " missed opportunity and Hemlock" were the prime response to this statement......although I have always enjoyed watching "Arsenic and Old Lace" from time to time.

Wingswinger
19th Jan 2014, 16:13
b) got us in to a war. Churchill, on the other hand got us out of one!
c) shoved my mortgage rate up to 15%

b. I don't think so. Wasn't it that Galtieri chap?

c. You can't have been trying hard enough to avoid it. The only time I paid double figures of a mortgage rate was after she'd left office and it was very brief - until I remortgaged to a better deal.

pvmw
19th Jan 2014, 16:23
One has to chuckle. It is incredible, 25 years later and still the Left can't let go - including an entire generation who weren't even alive when she was PM. It reflects what an absolute colossus she was as a leader, she had a greater impact on this country than any politician since Churchill.

Compare that with the leaders that the Labour party has managed to produce in the same era.... Wilson (crook), "Farmer Jim" Callahan (give me strength!), Foot (don't make me laugh), Smith (possibly the exception, given a chance he might have achieved something), Kinnock (windbag, waste of space), Blair (hypocrite, but successful - if personal wealth is the measure of success), Brown ('nuf said), Millibrain (vapid and indecisive).

Can you really imagine any of that lot running the country. Oh silly me! Some of them tried - and look at the result each time.

Seldomfitforpurpose
19th Jan 2014, 16:36
Can you really imagine any of that lot running the country. Oh silly me! Some of them tried - and look at the result each time.

Yes, they spent all the money. Wonder if the usual lefty comfy shoe wearers want to come defend that record :p

Low Flier
19th Jan 2014, 16:41
The people have spoken.
The Wicked Witch Is Dead - YouTube
That song became a number one hit for weeks after the witch went below to make the stokers of Hell redundant.

Remarkable, quite unique actually, that a 74 year old pop song should reach the top of the pops. The people really did have the last laugh.

Seldomfitforpurpose
19th Jan 2014, 16:51
The people really did have the last laugh.

Son,

As was pointed out earlier most of those noisy folk weren't even born when Mrs T was in power, so the only folk getting a laugh were the folk collecting the royalties courtesy of a herd of sheep :p:p:p

Low Flier
19th Jan 2014, 16:59
How do you know the age(s) of the people who voted by buying that record?

What information about that demographic of democracy do you have access to?

Care to share it?

Seldomfitforpurpose
19th Jan 2014, 17:04
How do you know the age(s) of the people who voted by buying that record?

What information about that demographic of democracy do you have access to?

Care to share it?

Son,

I could offer the supposition that most folk who purchase music that ends up at No 1 are not young enough to have actually been around when Mrs T was in power

BUT

I'll rest with the only folk getting a laugh out of that records resurgence were the owners of the royalties :p:p:p

Lon More
19th Jan 2014, 17:09
If her ideas werwe as good as some here would have us believe why did her own party conspire to kick her out?

sitigeltfel
19th Jan 2014, 17:29
Can you really imagine any of that lot running the country. Oh silly me! Some of them tried - and look at the result each time.
Even when out of power they can still wreak havoc in the financial markets. When Millionaireband gave us his views the other day on the future of banking, his pronouncements managed to wipe close to a Billion off the value of the state owned bank shares.
The man is a reverse Midas.

racedo
19th Jan 2014, 17:44
Isn't going to happen and its not just lefties opposed its tories as well.

Idea best put into a filing cabinet and left to gather dust.

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jan 2014, 18:04
I could offer the supposition that most folk who purchase music that ends up at No 1 are not young enough to have actually been around when Mrs T was in power
I'm not sure that makes sense.

Perhaps what you meant to say was that "only people old enough to have been around when Mrs T was in power are daft enough to pay for music, all the young ones download it for free".

Low Flier
19th Jan 2014, 18:10
Looking at the people who were celebrating the death of Attila the Hen in Trafalgar Square and in pubs up and down the country, I see no evidence that (m)any of them were too young or too old to know what they were celebrating.

Anyway, most teenagers wouldn't be seen dead buying a 1930s pop song in a record shop. Very uncool.

In Midlothian and West Lothian many people strung up strings of bunting on the front of their houses and even across the street in some villages close to places like Polkemmet. A few teenagers may have joined in the fun. These were street parties after all, but the people who spoke by making that song a #1 hit were quite certainly those who remember the witch very painfully and had a lot to celebrate at her passing into the flames of Hell.

OFSO
19th Jan 2014, 18:13
why did her own party conspire to kick her out

Assassination of an effective powerful leader by members of their own party is quite common. Why else do you think Cameron and Millipede are still leaders of their parties ?

(I won't mention Clegg as he isn't fit to lead a penny-whistle band).

Capetonian
19th Jan 2014, 18:19
Regardless of one's political stance, I think it is utterly shameful and despicable to celebrate the death of someone who had been off the political scene for many years, who had never done anyone any personal harm, and who had not, unlike many others in politics, massively enriched herself.

Now, when Mugabe goes, I shall be celebrating, but that's different because he is still in power, and probably will be until the day he slips his clogs, and has done enormous harm to millions, directly and indirectly, wrecked what was one of the finest countries in the word, and has massively enriched himself. So accuse me of double standards ............ we all have them.

B Fraser
19th Jan 2014, 18:49
At least General Pinochet now has a partner for backgammon.

wings folded
19th Jan 2014, 19:19
It reflects what an absolute colossus she was as a leader,

A great leader?

She was quite the opposite.

A great leader unites; she was divisive.

A great leader is generally liked or at least admired by most people; she was hated by significant chunks of the population.

A great leader does not get kicked out of office by her own party.

she had a greater impact on this country than any politician since Churchill.
That may be true, but there are many who believe that the impact was not altogether good, including and not limited to, her own political party.

And please spare me the regurgitation of the shortcomings of labour politicians. You not very skillfully avoid mention of Heath, Major, to name just a couple so as not to bore the readers.

Do not assume that those who found Thatcher to be a deeply flawed PM must inevitably be fluffy pinko tree hugging (and all that other childish trite stuff nonsense wheeled out against people with left wing views, or perhaps, more accurately, those with views left of yours.)

I have yet to read a post on JB which can explain away her radical dumping by her own sympathisers.

OFSO tried by saying it was not uncommon.

If it happened in recent UK politics apart from Thatcher, I must have missed it.

Care to answer why her own folk kicked her out?

Mr Chips
19th Jan 2014, 19:27
Low Flier
Anyway, most teenagers wouldn't be seen dead buying a 1930s pop song in a record shop. Very uncool.
Well, that just proved the point. iTunes my dear dinosaur, iTunes.

Wings Folded
A great leader is generally liked or at least admired by most people; she was hated by significant chunks of the population.
Remind me how many General Elections she lost?

25 years later, and you are all still talking about her.....

But no, I don't agree with naming a Bank Holiday after her, and I'd love to see the day that Trafalgar Day gets recognised in that way!

Low Flier
19th Jan 2014, 19:38
The reason why her own people tossed the bitch overboard was quite simply that she was clearly bonkers and would quite certainly have lost the Tories the next election.

The first time I realised that she was barking mad and had been totally taken over by her slightly fascistic megalomania was when she bustled across Downing Street to announce to the hack pack "We are a grandmother".

I've heard from the local gossip in the immediate vicinity of Balmoral, where I lived for more than a decade, that she was the one Prime Minister that the Queen actively disliked. Her (the bitch, not the Queen) presidential style and dictatorial demeanour was anathema to the Queen. That use of the royal "we" was entirely symptomatic of her madness (again, the bitch, not the Queen).

The Queen, like many of us Prooners, tends to use "one" rather than "we".

Mr Chips
19th Jan 2014, 19:40
I've heard from the local gossip in the immediate vicinity of Balmoral, where I lived for more than a decade, that she was the one Prime Minister that the Queen actively disliked
Spooky, the same gets said about Tony Blair.

wings folded
19th Jan 2014, 19:42
Remind me how many General Elections she lost?

Still avoiding answering the question why her own party chucked her out, I see.

25 years later, and you are all still talking about her.....

Because some prat of an MP wants to rename a Bank holiday in her honour, and the original poster raised the topic in glutenous glowing terms.

I am merely responding. I would far rather forget the whole sorry episode of her time as PM.

Now, answer the question about her eviction from office.

Mr Chips
19th Jan 2014, 19:47
WingsFolded her party clearly decided they had had enough of her and wanted a new direction. It happens. Were they right to do so? Who knows what she may or may not have done next.

I actually addressed your assertion that she wasn't "liked or admired"

So, in the spirit of not avoiding questions, remind me how many general elections she lost

wings folded
19th Jan 2014, 20:02
Chips.

None, she was chucked out before the question arose. That is not something you need to be reminded of, unless you have not been paying attention.

Blair did not not lose an election either; does not make him an object of admiration.

I actually addressed your assertion that she wasn't "liked or admired"
Please do not misquote. Re-read carefully what I wrote.

And then answer the question about her eviction from office by her own party (if you can).

Mr Chips
19th Jan 2014, 21:06
Wings Folded what am i misquoting? Your post, #57in this thread clearly states
A great leader is generally liked or at least admired by most people; she was hated by significant chunks of the population.

In response to this statement by you, in your post, post #57, I asked how many general elections Margaret Thatcher lost. You (eventually) correctly confirmed that she lost none. Now to me, that would rather suggest that she was in fact liked, or at least admired by the electorate as a whole. I know that doesn't fit with your personal bias, but tough.

And then answer the question about her eviction from office by her own party (if you can).
What, you mean like this?
WingsFolded her party clearly decided they had had enough of her and wanted a new direction. It happens. Were they right to do so? Who knows what she may or may not have done next.
Feel free to check my previous post. Y'know, the one where I clearly answered your question

Tell you what, you carry on with you ranting hatred of a politician who left office 25 years ago.

Have a nice day.

Low Flier
19th Jan 2014, 21:07
the same gets said about Tony Blair

Yup. He had exactly the same presidential style.

In many ways he aped Maggie. In some ways he was worse. She, at least, was a true blue Tory. What you saw was what you got. BLiar was an ersatz Tory who had infiltrated the Labour party like some kind of fungus. He was never true to anything. He was always a deceitful little shit. The bitch from Hell was never that.

Merely being a politically self-appointed presidential figure in UK politics was never enough for BLiar. He clearly had great ambitions to become President of Europe. Hague made a very funny speech to the House on the matter when Brown was not long in the PM job.

Gordon's EU Nightmare - YouTube

Matari
19th Jan 2014, 21:11
Mr. Chips,

Weak and insecure men, leftists by and large, loathe strong conservative women. See the many comments here that refer to her as a "bitch."

Capetonian
19th Jan 2014, 21:15
Weak and insecure men, leftists by and large, loathe strong conservative women.
Probably the wisest words I have read on this thread, if not on the whole of JB, for a long time.

Flypuppy
19th Jan 2014, 21:16
Now to me, that would rather suggest that she was in fact liked, or at least admired by the electorate as a whole.

You might want to review the percentage of the vote that the Tory party actually received. That woman was not liked nor admired by the electorate as a whole. That woman never carried the popular vote, but the vagaries of the first past the post system gave her a parliamentary majority. That is very very different from what you are intimating.

I know it doesn't fit with your personal bias, but tough.

radeng
19th Jan 2014, 21:36
Maggie was lucky, rather than generally right. She would have lost the Falklands because of her cuts in the military had Galtieri waited six months. Her ideas on having a service rather than a manufacturing economy have been proved dubious, to say the least - that's OK while the services you offer are cheaper than other peoples'. But in the UK, with the taxation on employers, that's difficult. She had little choice with the miners, and she did do a good job arguing against the EC. The freeze on company pension fund contributions wasn't that good an idea, but in fact, it made no difference in the end because of the Labour Party's raid on pension funds under Brown - which arguably killed final salary pensions in the UK. Not the first time Labour have attacked pensions and pension funds - they did it in 1948 with their confiscation of the railways' assets.

Was she a 'Great' PM? Certainly not comparable with Churchill, but arguably superior to Eden, Macmillan, Douglas-Home, Wilson, Callaghan (arguably the best of the Labour bunch), Heath (not difficult), Major (not difficult), Blair (not difficult), Brown (not difficult), and Camerloon (definitely not difficult).

radeng
19th Jan 2014, 21:44
Basil.

I wonder what those left wing supporters who vilify Thatcher would say if people were to vilify Wilson, Callaghan, Brown and Blair in the same way after their death?

Although one leftie whose grave should be pis*ed on is Robert Maxwell...

Flypuppy
19th Jan 2014, 21:54
The turnout for the funeral of Lady Thatcher expressed the feelings of the people more eloquently than any spoken eulogy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/IanWhiteNews/status/324469527922495489/photo/1?screen_name=IanWhiteNews

racedo
19th Jan 2014, 21:59
She had little choice with the miners, and she did do a good job arguing against the EC.

Miners strike cost what ? Including all the payout post 1997 etc etc.

French mining industry followed a different path with same result but no bitter class war.

Maggie's triumph destroyed community after community and left a hatred that will exist for many years.

A legacy that exists is in the dead Town/Villages across South Wales / Yorkshire / NE etc etc where by destroying the single largest employer quickly rather than a phased closure agreed with Union members you left generations on Welfare. No planning just a desire to shut.

Galtieri waiting a year would have had different result and lets not forget that pre Invasion her opinion poll results were in the toilet with even her own party questioning her longevity.

Low Flier
19th Jan 2014, 22:03
She had popular support in Leeds too.

All three of them turned out to watch her funeral service on the big screen.

http://i.imgur.com/Z0PPjqZ.jpg

Shack37
19th Jan 2014, 22:12
Mr. Chips,
Weak and insecure men, leftists by and large, loathe strong
conservative women. See the many comments here that refer to her as a
"bitch."

No wish to enter in this debate but would be interested to read your evidence for the above....or is it just IYHO?

Seldomfitforpurpose
20th Jan 2014, 03:27
Miners strike cost what ? Including all the payout post 1997 etc etc.

French mining industry followed a different path with same result but no bitter class war.

Maggie's triumph destroyed community after community and left a hatred that will exist for many years.

A legacy that exists is in the dead Town/Villages across South Wales / Yorkshire / NE etc etc where by destroying the single largest employer quickly rather than a phased closure agreed with Union members you left generations on Welfare. No planning just a desire to shut.



Massively, but entirely expected, blinkered view of those days.

Ask yourself a couple of really simple questions,

How did the stance of Scargill and the NUM affect the eventual outcome of the miners strike?

If a less militant approach had been taken by the Miners Union how many of those towns/villages now laying dormant would have survived?

Super VC-10
20th Jan 2014, 06:42
Raadeng is correct re the witch getting us into a war.

It was her cuts to our armed forces in the South Atlantic which gave Galtieri the opportunity to invade South Georgia and the Falklands.

Q1 - how much did the cuts save us?
Q2 - how much did the Falklands War cost us? Obviously the 255 British casualties are beyond price in monetary terms.

PTT
20th Jan 2014, 07:06
How did the stance of Scargill and the NUM affect the eventual outcome of the miners strike?It takes two to tango.

Lon More
20th Jan 2014, 08:41
Mr. Chips asked how many general elections Margaret Thatcher lost.
Thatcher won a three way election in 1979 with 44 percent of the vote. In 1983 her support slipped slightly to more like 43 percent. In 1987 she won again, but her support further dropped to around 42 percent.
So in fact she never won any

Labour closed down a lot of unproductive pits and greatly reorganised the coal fields. By stockpiling several months supply Thatcher showed her intention for it to be a fight to the death over what remained. Scargill, being an idiot, made it easy for her.

Many pits still would have been ptofitable now.

Seldomfitforpurpose
20th Jan 2014, 10:35
Mr. Chips asked how many general elections Margaret Thatcher lost.
Thatcher won a three way election in 1979 with 44 percent of the vote. In 1983 her support slipped slightly to more like 43 percent. In 1987 she won again, but her support further dropped to around 42 percent.
So in fact she never won any

Labour closed down a lot of unproductive pits and greatly reorganised the coal fields. By stockpiling several months supply Thatcher showed her intention for it to be a fight to the death over what remained. Scargill, being an idiot, made it easy for her.

Many pits still would have been ptofitable now.

If Scargill and the NUM had negotiated instead of fighting a battle they were never going to win then how many if those pits could still be operating today.

racedo
20th Jan 2014, 10:57
Massively, but entirely expected, blinkered view of those days.

Ask yourself a couple of really simple questions,

How did the stance of Scargill and the NUM affect the eventual outcome of the miners strike?

If a less militant approach had been taken by the Miners Union how many of those towns/villages now laying dormant would have survived?

Nope not blinkered.

French coal industry at one stage employed 300,000 akin to UK and was as militant if not more so that UK industry.

French decided they would shut industry down and worked out a package that would ensure people bought into it..........frankly a hell of a lot cheaper than the 30 years UK has had.

Maggie set out for a fight rather than a compromise and met someone equally as stupid.

Bearing in mind the papers release under 30 year review show that what Scargill was claiming was close to the truth.

Miners got payouts for redundancy and then another when Labour came to power.

Frankly a plan before the strike setting out the industry for 20 years and the package to the individual miners would have killed a coal strike or any ideas of it.

Approx 20 years ago met a Friend who worked in Finance for a beer, he was attending a talk so joined him, given by senior finance guy who had worked with UK Govt, name escapes me but at time remember was well known.
I sat and listened as he pretty much stated the Miners strike was an exercise in wasteful stupidity with an incalculable cost.
Mines which were individually profitable were saddled with share of overall overhead for the NCB, even R&D projected ccosts for superpits in the future.
His term was Vodoo accounting.
As each mine was being shut the overall overhead was being shared across less and less mines so even the most profitable would show a loss.
This was the stated way in which mines were being shut, bearing in mind he was talking to City types, Tory voters, the Q&A was agressive as again and again he had people going onto the politics of it.
Time and again he came back and said when winning means you destroy whole areas of the country economically and end up having a double hit of losing taxpayers and then paying welfare then the cost doesn't justify the actions.

Politicially he said that was a different game BUT guaranteeing miners an income even if pit closes gets more buy in than saying claim dole.

Bearing in mind last 30 years I think what he said was true.

MFC_Fly
20th Jan 2014, 11:05
That song became a number one hit for weeks
Don't let facts get in the way of your hate rant. It actually made number 2 for one week only before dropping out of the charts.

Seldomfitforpurpose
20th Jan 2014, 11:20
Bearing in mind last 30 years I think what he said was true.

I have no reason at all to doubt you post however I stand by my assertion that if Scargill and the NUM had taken a different approach from absolute militancy then who knows what the outcome would have been.

You say, and I again do not disagree, that Maggie was prepared for the fight. She knew exactly the lengths that Scargill was going to go to and prepared accordingly, what else was she supposed to do? Give in? Capitulate?

Just where do you think that would have ended?

TBirdFrank
20th Jan 2014, 11:35
With proper and proportional attention given to the full national interest, balance of mayments, social security payments budget, etc, etc these two morons might have been kept away from each other.

Scargill - right battle - wrong war. Not the sharpest tack in the box!

Maggie - besotted with "the enemy within" and we are still paying today. If you doubt me I'm happy to pick up any of our Atilla the Hun adherents and give them a tour of areas where coal was once king and show them what an economic wasteland looks like.

Then they can go to Seaforth Docks where the labours of third world children are piled high - just like our balance of payments deficit - but mind out for the windmills on the way and out in the estuary!

Only in Britain :ugh:

MagnusP
20th Jan 2014, 11:40
Just for the sake of accuracy and not taking sides (as I was NOT a fan of Margaret Thatcher), the gainsayers may wish to research how many pits were closed under Wilson and Callaghan. They will find that Maggie actually only oversaw the closure of a couple of dozen; Wilson and Callaghan oversaw the closure of over 200. Her taking-on of the odious Scargill and the NUM was political, visceral and damn nearly personal; I think she was wrong in how she went about it, but to accuse her of destroying the UK coal industry pays little heed to facts.

Andy_S
20th Jan 2014, 11:41
Maggie set out for a fight rather than a compromise

That assumes that she was dealing with someone who was reasonable, rational, and whose only motives were to act in the best long term interests of the people he represented.

Scargill was none of these things.

Lon More
20th Jan 2014, 12:16
Magnus I don't know who gave you your figures but they are wrong:

From the BBC News, Friday, 5 March, 2004, 03:26 GMT

Full list of the collieries which have closed since March 1984 when the miners' strike began.



CLOSURES IN 1984, MARCH ONWARDS


Bearpark, Co Durham
Cronton, Merseyside


CLOSURES IN 1985




Aberpergwm, South Wales
Abertillery, South Wales
Ackton Hall, Yorkshire
Bedwas, South Wales
Bold, Merseyside
b>, Tyne and Wear
Brookhouse, Yorkshire
Cortonwood, Yorkshire
Emley Moor, Yorkshire
Fryston, Yorkshire
Garw, South Wales
Haig, Cumbria
Herrington, Co Durham
Margam, South Wales
Moor Green, Nottinghamshire
Penrhiwceiber, South Wales
Pye Hill, Nottinghamshire
Sacriston, Co Durham
St Johns, South Wales
Savile, Yorkshire
Treforgan, South Wales
Wolstanton, Staffordshire
Yorkshire Main, Yorkshire


CLOSURES IN 1986


Babbington, Nottinghamshire
Bates, Northumberland
Bersham, North Wales
Birch Coppice, Warwickshire
Cadeby, Yorkshire
Comrie, Fife
Cwm, South Wales
Eppleton, Co Durham
Glasshoughton, Yorkshire
Horden, Co Durham
Kinsley, Yorkshire
Ledston Luck, Yorkshire
Nantgarw / Winsor, South Wales
Polkemmet, West Lothian
Tilmanstone, Kent
Whitwell, Nottinghamshire
Whitwick/ South Leicester, Leicestershire


CLOSURES IN 1987


Newstead, Nottinghamshire
Nostell, Yorkshire
Polmaise 3/4, Stirling
Snowdown, Kent
Wheldale, Yorkshire
Whittal, Co Durham
Woolley, Yorkshire
Silverwood, Yorkshire


CLOSURES IN 1988


Abernant, South Wales
Arkwright, Derbyshire
Ashington, Northumberland
Cadley Hill, Derbyshire
Lady Winsor / Abercynon, South Wales
Linby, Nottinghamshire
Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
Manvers complex, Yorkshire
Seafield/ Frances, Fife
South Kirkby/ Riddings, Yorkshire


CLOSURES IN 1989


Baddesley, Warwickshire
Barnburgh, Yorkshire
Barony, Ayreshire
Betteshanger, Kent
Bilston Glen, Mid Lothian
Blidworth, Nottinghamshire
Cynheidre, South Wales
Holditch, Staffordshire
Marine/ Six Bells, South Wales
Merthyr Vale, South Wales
Oakdale, South Wales
Renishaw Park, Yorkshire
Royston, Yorkshire
Sutton, Nottinghamshire
Trelewis, South Wales
Warsop, Nottinghamshire


CLOSURES IN 1990


Agecroft, Lancashire
Ellistown, Leicestershire
Lea Hall, Staffordshire
Littleton, Staffordshire
Shireoaks/ Steetley, Nottinghamshire
Treeton, Yorkshire
Donnisthorpe/ Rawdon, Leicestershire
Florence, Cumbria


CLOSURES IN 1991


Askern, Yorkshire
Bagworth, Leicestershire
Barnsley Main, Yorkshire
Creswell, Derbyshire
Dawdon, Co Durham
Dearne Valley, Yorkshire
Deep Navigation, South Wales
Denby Grange, Yorkshire
Dinnington, Yorkshire
Gedling, Nottinghamshire
Murton, Co Durham
Penallta, South Wales
Sutton Manor, Merseyside
Thurcroft, Yorkshire


CLOSURES IN 1992


Allerton Bywater, Yorkshire
Bickershaw Complex, Lancashire
Cotgrave, Nottinghamshire
Sherwood, Nottinghamshire
Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Silverhill, Nottinghamshire


CLOSURES IN 1993


Bentley, Yorkshire
Bolsover, Derbyshire
Easington, Co Durham
Frickley/S Elmsall, Yorkshire
Grimethorpe, Yorkshire
Houghton/Darfield, Yorkshire
Parkside, Merseyside
Rufford, Nottinghamshire
Sharlston, Yorkshire
Taff Merthyr, South Wales
Vane Tempest/ Seaham, Co Durham
Westoe, Tyne and Wear


CLOSURES IN 1994


Goldthorpe/ Hickelton, Yorkshire
Kiveton Park, Yorkshire
Markham, Derbyshire
Manton, Nottinghamshire
Ollerton, Nottinghamshire
Wearmouth, Co Durham


CLOSURES IN 1995


Bilsthorpe, Nottinghamshire


CLOSURES IN 1996


Coventry, West Midlands
Hem Heath, Staffordshire
Markham Main, Yorkshire
Point of Ayr, North Wales


CLOSURES IN 1997


No collieries closed this year


CLOSURES IN 1998


Silverdale, Staffordshire
Monktonhall, Mid Lothian


CLOSURES IN 1999


Calverton, Nottinghamshire

North Selby, Yorkshire


CLOSURES IN 2000


Annesley / Bentinck, Nottinghamshire
Blaenant, South Wales


CLOSURES IN 2001


No collieries closed this year


CLOSURES IN 2002


Longannet complex, Fife
Prince of Wales, Yorkshire


CLOSURES IN 2003


Betws, South Wales
Clipstone, Nottinghamshire


DEEP PITS STILL WORKING


Daw Mill, West Midlands
Ellington, Northumberland
Harworth, Nottinghamshire
Kellingley, Yorkshire
Maltby, Yorkshire
Riccall, Selby Complex, Yorkshire.
(Due to close 2004.)
Rossington, Yorkshire
Stillingfleet, Selby Complex, Yorkshire. Due to close 2004.
Thoresby, Nottinghamshire
Tower, South Wales
Welbeck, Nottinghamshire
Wistow, Selby Complex, Yorkshire.
(Due to close 2004.)


OTHER


Gascoigne Wood, Yorkshire.
(Processes coal from the Selby Complex
and is due to close 2004.)
Hatfield, Yorkshire.
(In administration since 2003
and expected to close.)


Although there were 170 collieries open in 1984, several merged before they closed which is why there are only 152 entries on this list.


Labour did close more pits but mainly it was a rationalisation of the industry. There were still several pits in the Lochgelly area with the workings frequently interlaced. It made no sense to have, say two pitheads several miles apart working vertically six feet apart also
the NCB were having problems recruiting during the late 50's through the late 60's.
Older collieries had worked out their reserves and were costing serious money to work what reserves were left. ie distance from pit bottom and seam thickness and quality.
Then there were the new "superpits" opening, manpower was short, so some older pits, even though they were still pretty productive, were closed and the manpower transferred to the new pits.

Lord Robens stated years later, the government should have closed even more collieries while they had the union backing

Scargill was definitely right (http://www.nicholasjones.org.uk/articles/40-trade-union-reporting/279-thatcher-cover-up-macgregor-s-secret-hit-list-for-pit-closures)on one thing though'

Seldom asked how many pits could have remained open. Not many. Yjere was no provision for care and maintenance thereby ensuring that most mines are now water filled and een if they could be pumped out would be in a dangerous condition

Flypuppy
20th Jan 2014, 12:20
If Scargill hadn't been so vainglorious and had managed to bring NACODs into the strike (the negotiations with the NCB had gone very badly) then the entire UK coalfield would have closed down. That was not part of the Tory battle plan and there would only have been 3-4 weeks worth of coal available at the key power stations.

As with all wars, you just need to winner to screw up less than the loser, and Scargill managed to alienate NACODs; the miners union was split with the Nottinghamshire miners setting up their own union. Game over and Thatcher felt vindicated in her vindictive internal war. The follow on socio-economic effects were catastrophic.

Then again we forget the other things like the Cecil Parkinson scandal, her links to Jimmy Saville, the abolition of a democratically elected council, the various scandals surrounding her son, the Westland affair and Matrix Churchill. The sell off of council houses has left us with property price bubbles and a desperate shortage of housing stock. The UK now has grocery shopping that is 30% more expensive then the rest of Europe and average wages much lower than that of our nearest neighbours. Privatising our infrastructure has put it in the hands of foreign companies, for a short term small profit for the tax payers, who bought and quickly sold those shares, but who had already paid for and owned those companies.

Ironically, her biggest legacy is the Scottish Parliament; she managed to polarise the country so badly that it meant this became an inevitability by the time Noo Labour/Tory Lite came into office with Blair at the helm. I feel sorry for anyone who thought that voting for nu Labour was a vote for a center left/socialist party.

Lon More
20th Jan 2014, 12:30
FlyPuppy bring back Willie Gallacher MP for West Fife from 1935 to 1950

radeng
20th Jan 2014, 12:38
How many coal mines are working today in the UK? How long will they continue to work with the business of cutting CO2 emissions? Preserved railways are already having problems getting coal supplies and are having to import the stuff, although the UK has enormous stocks underground.

Does anyone have any hard facts and figures on what the unemployment figures are in north east France and eastern Belgium now most of the coal mines in that region have closed?

MagnusP
20th Jan 2014, 13:02
Lon More, I stand corrected, thanks. I think you'll find, though, that considerably more closed under the previous Labour government than under Thatcher. I regret it all; partly because I have several colleagues who were previously miners in the Lothians and I've heard their stories, but also because of our increasing reliance on east European lignite, which is a "dirtier" coal, and also produces a LOT more methane while being mined.

We're getting OT, though. I was just trying to point out that Maggie didn't singlehandedly wreck the UK mining industry as some here would have us believe.

Lon More
20th Jan 2014, 13:08
The closing down of the mines in Dutch Limburg was compensated to a large extent by the miners being retraained and finding jobs in a number of companies that started up there. DAF Curver and DSM being three of the largest.
Worthwhile noting that the seams were more or less exhausted by this time (1975)

It depends whose figures you take what the actual number of unemployed is

Lon More
20th Jan 2014, 13:25
Magnus as I stated, in the 50s and 60s there was a shortage of men prepared to work underground at any price. None of my generation in our family was even allowed to consider it, so some mines were closed because there was no-one there willing to work them. Others were, even by the 1950s uneconomical to remain open. In the run-up to nationalisation there had been little or no investment in equipment or safety. Some were competing in very small areas (there were several in Lochgelly, esentially digging the same seam, of them one remained Seafield/Frances that opened in the 1950s with coal for 150 years, but was closed in 1988)

MagnusP
20th Jan 2014, 13:46
Lon More, thanks for the further information. I was aware of the economic (and also H&S) background to the earlier closures; many of these reasons applied also to the "Thatcher" closures, but certainly not to all, I agree. The prevailing economic conditions, the workforce reluctance ("get out of the pit") and the move to other energy sources all contributed to the decline, and Thatcher v Scargill made no little contribution to that decline.

Low Flier
20th Jan 2014, 15:10
When a power-mad hard-core sociopath clashes with a power-mad hard-core socialist it is inevitable that there will be sparks.

The sociopath cared not a jot for the social consequences of throwing dozens of communities onto a bing. The socialist cared not a jot for the absurdly unaffordable financial costs of deep-mining coal in the UK.

There was an inevitability about dead-beat pits being shut down. The sociopath merely accelerated that process and made its progress irreversible. Of course she also had a political agenda as she knew what happened when Ted Heath refused to cave in to a similar challenge to a democratically elected government. She also had a need to show that she had much bigger balls than Ted Heath could ever have fondled.

The truth is that coal is a crap fuel in Britain. Unlike gas it is a bitch to move around. You can't blow it down a pipeline like gas or oil, you can only move it wagon by wagon. Unlike gas or oil you cannot (easily or economically) use it as a feedstock for the chemical industry. That was achieved by the Nazis and in its Nazi-loving days (now airbrushed from history) Shell exploited that technology very profitably, as did the vile apartheit regime during the sanctions against that sept of crypto-fascists who were so admired by Attila the Hen.

sitigeltfel
20th Jan 2014, 16:04
The UK miners, by their actions, made themselves unemployable. You could just imagine the reaction on the faces of potential employers when a CV and job application from one of them landed on the HR desk.

Seldomfitforpurpose
20th Jan 2014, 16:14
The UK miners, by their actions, made themselves unemployable. You could just imagine the reaction on the faces of potential employers when a CV and job application from one of them landed on the HR desk.

That is the thing most choose to ignore, but for Scargill and the NUM's militant stance things would have been oh so different.

Flypuppy
20th Jan 2014, 16:57
That is the thing most choose to ignore, but for Scargill and the NUM's militant stance things would have been oh so different.The frightening thing is you actually believe that.

Thatcher wanted a fight, the months of work stockpiling coal stores at power stations and steelworks, the training the police forces were given in riot tactics and the plans that were drawn up use soldiers after declaring a state of emergency all point to that expectation and desire for a fight with the miners.

The recently released cabinet papers show that Thatcher sanctioned the publicity campaign claiming that only 20,000 jobs were at risk when the documented reality was that 70 pits and 70,000 jobs were to be disposed of.

sitigeltfel
20th Jan 2014, 17:40
You could almost sense the air of despondency and disappointment from the Left, when their NUM thugs were thwarted in their attempt to inflict hardship and suffering on the sick, elderly, young and defenceless.

wings folded
20th Jan 2014, 18:03
This thread has veered so far from the original thesis at post no. 1.

It has gone via school milk (she was not PM at that time, but Education Secretary) and the mining saga to become a forum for remarkably unsubstantiated and singularly inflammatory remarks:


You could almost sense the air of despondency and disappointment from the Left, when their NUM thugs were thwarted in their attempt to inflict hardship and suffering on the sick, elderly, young and defenceless.


The original thesis was that as a great leader she deserved to have a public holiday named after her.

I questioned her leadership abilities with three observations, to recap,

She was hated by a significant number of people. I think that is true.

She was divisive; she made a choice to favour her electoral base and abandon regions which brought her few votes. I think that is true.

Her qualities as leader must be called into serious question when her own faithfull kicked her out. I think that is true.


I then get the lame response:

her party clearly decided they had had enough of her and wanted a new direction. It happens. Were they right to do so? Who knows what she may or may not have done next.


If she were that great a leader that would never have happened.

And the same poster calls my post a "rant".

Mr Chips
20th Jan 2014, 18:27
Oh Wingsfoldedyou really must learn that you can't revise history when its all here to be seen by simple scrolling

You actually said, in full
A great leader is generally liked or at least admired by most people; she was hated by significant chunks of the population.
which I challenged by reference to the fact that she never lost a general election. Now, notwithstanding LonMore claiming that she didn't actually win, despite, errr, winning, I would again suggest that she clearly was liked and admired. "Significant chunks" is a rather weasel way of not having to quantify your argument
So, she was elected and reelected as PM. Not bad going I'd suggest

Now, as for lame responses, I asked you directly how many general elections she lost. I had to ask twice as you hid behind a question that I had not challenged you on

I would consider that your response was "lame" as you clearly didn't want to answer my question

And now you sit in judgement on the quality of my response. How very condescending of you. I gave my personal opinion in answer to your question. You don't like the way I answered? Tough. I don't like that you had to be asked twice to answer a simple question.
Lame
You accused me of not answering your question at all, even though I clearly had
Lame
You seem to think it is ok to accuse me of giving lame answers, but take exception to me calling your outpourings a rant?
Lame

I suggested before that you have a nice day. I'll now suggest that you suck it up Princess.

Oh,and just for fun. Winston Churchill
Did he ever lose a general Election?
Did he ever leave parliament?
Did he have "controversial" (perhaps divisive?) views?



(Save your time, the answers are all "yes", and the controversial views were regarding good standard, Home rule for India and the Abdication)

Low Flier
20th Jan 2014, 19:17
Winston Churchill, like the dreadful Thatcher, was detested by the miners, especially the Welsh miners.

Even today, almost a century later, there's a lot of ill-feeling towards Churchill in the Rhondda. His use of armed troops in that strike is particularly reviled though they actually behaved less thuggishly than Maggie's storm-troop police 70 years later.

wings folded
20th Jan 2014, 20:12
You actually said, in full
Quote:
A great leader is generally liked or at least admired by most people; she was hated by significant chunks of the population.


Yes I did. At least you are now quoting verbatim, and not selectively. Good.



Now, as for lame responses, I asked you directly how many general elections she lost. I had to ask twice as you hid behind a question that I had not challenged you on


Your question was clearly rhetorical. You knew, as well as I did, the answer.


I don't like that you had to be asked twice to answer a simple question.

A rhetorical question. But you still have failed to respond to the question of how she could be regarded as a great leader when she could not sustainably lead even her own party.


I suggested before that you have a nice day. I'll now suggest that you suck it up Princess.

What a fine diginified debating skill you have. It must be the envy of all contributors to pprune

racedo
20th Jan 2014, 21:16
which I challenged by reference to the fact that she never lost a general election.

Neither did Tony Blair

Sunnyjohn
20th Jan 2014, 21:27
What seems to have been forgotten here is that it is a government that does things. Yes, Margaret Thatcher had a reputation as a Prime Minister for getting things her own way but it still required the government to vote on the issues of the day. It is also forgotten, and to be fair only recently came to light, that she was against the Falklands Invasion and was overruled by her Armed Forces advisers (who, of course, had a vested interest in the affair). Names of Prime Ministers can be bandied about as much as one wishes but it is the government that makes the ultimate decisions.

Low Flier
20th Jan 2014, 21:42
Margaret Thatcher had a reputation as a Prime Minister for getting things her own way but it still required the government to vote on the issues of the day

She was the first PM to treat the Cabinet as a rubber-stamping servant of hers. She simply told them what to vote in Cabinet.

This was satirised often and well, eg by Spitting Image

Schoolboy Cabinet - YouTube

The hard-right Nasties in her party, as here on Proon, were a bunch of bed-wetters who adored Nanny and got a wee stiffy when she spoke to them

parabellum
20th Jan 2014, 22:50
they actually behaved less thuggishly than Maggie's storm-troop police 70 years later.


Probably because the miners, 70 years later, behaved like thugs too?

Ant T
20th Jan 2014, 23:08
Margaret Thatcher day already exists - it is marked each year on 10th Jan in the Falkland Islands, one place where you won't find many with a bad word for her.
(The date commemorates the day she arrived there for a surprise visit in 1983)

Seldomfitforpurpose
21st Jan 2014, 03:36
The frightening thing is you actually believe that.

Thatcher wanted a fight, the months of work stockpiling coal stores at power stations and steelworks, the training the police forces were given in riot tactics and the plans that were drawn up use soldiers after declaring a state of emergency all point to that expectation and desire for a fight with the miners.

The recently released cabinet papers show that Thatcher sanctioned the publicity campaign claiming that only 20,000 jobs were at risk when the documented reality was that 70 pits and 70,000 jobs were to be disposed of.

Scargill and the NUM had one thing and one thing only in mind. This did not happen over night and there was plenty of time for the militants to change tack and seek negotiation.

Thatcher had 2 choices, fight or capitulate, what would you have done?

Andy_S
21st Jan 2014, 07:41
Thatcher wanted a fight, the months of work stockpiling coal stores at power stations and steelworks, the training the police forces were given in riot tactics and the plans that were drawn up use soldiers after declaring a state of emergency all point to that expectation and desire for a fight with the miners.

She wanted a fight?

Or she saw that one way or another Scargill was going to give her a fight, so she prepared accordingly?

racedo
21st Jan 2014, 11:18
Question is

Would the day celebrate her birth or death...........

Can imagine celebrating her death would go down well in certain areas.

Lon More
21st Jan 2014, 11:29
notwithstanding LonMore claiming that she didn't actually win, despite, errr, winning

She didn't carry a majority of the voters, so although she gained power, there were more people against her than for her.

MagnusP
21st Jan 2014, 11:45
Lon More, I'd be interested to see your evidence that those who didn't vote at all were against her. :confused:

Seldomfitforpurpose
21st Jan 2014, 12:11
Lon More, I'd be interested to see your evidence that those who didn't vote at all were against her. :confused:

There is none, in the same way as there is no evidence available to quantify how many Mrs T supporters didn't get to vote for one reason or another.

In all my years of posting on here the one thing guaranteed to have LM foaming at the maw is the very mention of Mrs T and usually ends up with many illogical offerings on his part. :ok:

Capetonian
21st Jan 2014, 12:21
LM has posted on another thread that he has a personal reason for his dislike of MT.

Lon More
21st Jan 2014, 19:34
I'd be interested to see your evidence that those who didn't vote at all were against her
I never said that. All I said was that she did not have a majority. Some 60% did not vote for her

In all my years of posting on here the one thing guaranteed to have LM foaming at the maw is the very mention of Mrs T
Get your knees brown before asserting that. I stated my reasons in another thread, much to your asannoyance, and don't see the need to restate it here.

I say give her a memorial, preferably somewwhere in the middle of a live firing range.

no evidence available to quantify how many Mrs T supporters didn't get to vote for one reason or another.
No evidence because it never happened?

Mr Chips
21st Jan 2014, 19:59
She didn't carry a majority of the voters, so although she gained power, there were more people against her than for her.

So she won the election then.

Lon More
21st Jan 2014, 20:31
So she won the election then.
Yes she won, but she didn't have the expressed backing of the majority of the country.

llondel
22nd Jan 2014, 04:46
Yes she won, but she didn't have the expressed backing of the majority of the country.

When was the last time any party had the backing of the majority of those voting, let alone those eligible to vote? That says more about the voting system that lets it happen than anything else.

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Jan 2014, 05:22
Yes she won, but she didn't have the expressed backing of the majority of the country.

Apart from it soothing you to think that have you any evidence to offer as to how the rest of the country actually thought. If voter turnout was 100% I would be agreeing with you but if it wasn't how can you know how everyone else actually felt?

Wingswinger
22nd Jan 2014, 06:22
As they say these days: Whatever. Her medicine was badly needed. Does anyone really imagine it's right to have trade unions actively plotting to bring down elected governments? Scargill and the other union barons of the 1960s, 70s and early 80's signed their own execution warrants.

Lon More
22nd Jan 2014, 07:08
Does anyone really imagine it's right to have trade unions actively plotting to bring down elected governments?

But for some here it's OK if it's the right wing military establishment planning a coup (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1)?

sitigeltfel
22nd Jan 2014, 07:11
But for some here it's OK if it's the right wing military establishment planning a coup (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1)?

Name them.

Lon More
22nd Jan 2014, 07:13
Instead of just flapping your lips actually take the time to read the link

MagnusP
22nd Jan 2014, 07:20
No. Name the people here supporting a coup.

Wingswinger
22nd Jan 2014, 07:31
Well, it is a story in the Grauniad.

Nonetheless, if my recall is correct, it was well rumoured at the time. Who the prominent supporters were we may never know. I can recall discussion of this in the RAF crew rooms I inhabited at the time. Opinion was, I think, weighted against a coup, probably due to most of us having been university educated and wedded to the idea of democracy with all its warts.

StressFree
22nd Jan 2014, 07:42
Oh Dear,

A link to an article from The Guardian...........:yuk:

anotherthing
22nd Jan 2014, 07:49
It can only ever be conjecture and supposition, obviously, but what state do you think the country would be in now if the unions had their way in the 70's?

The Labour Government did their best to destroy Britain and we are suffering from their reign now... I can only imagine how much worse things could've been

Airey Belvoir
22nd Jan 2014, 07:59
I read the link Lon. Yes there was talk around the crew rooms but that was limited to expressions of disgust at how another lefty government was leading GB down the garden path. That's a whole world of difference to "supporting a coup". And a whole world of difference to the view of the world as expressed by the Grauniad.


You have made an accusation referring to "some here". As has been said - name 'em. Perhaps in the left-wing utopian world dissenting voices are not allowed - but that would be par for the course for the left.

sitigeltfel
22nd Jan 2014, 08:32
Instead of just flapping your lips actually take the time to read the link

Rumour and speculation with a large side order of paranoia. If any of the people named were still around today, they would probably be able to sue the arse off you for repeating the stories. Losing that part of your anatomy would likely render you speechless.

Scargill sent one of his henchmen off to Libya to seek funds for his plans to overthrow democracy. You may remember Gaddafi, the mass murderer who supplied arms and cash to the IRA helping them to assassinate Mountbatten and murdered a policewoman who was supervising a peaceful protest?

These are the people you continually provide moral and political support for....the stain is permanent.

Gordon17
22nd Jan 2014, 12:20
they actually behaved less thuggishly than Maggie's storm-troop police 70 years later.

Do you think it was acceptable for striking miners to try to physically prevent non-striking workers, some of them in other industries and unions, from going to work?

MagnusP
22nd Jan 2014, 13:29
... or for striking workers to drop paving stones from a bridge onto the carriageway below, killing a driver?

Lon More
23rd Jan 2014, 11:20
In his 1976 memoir Walking on Water, Hugh Cudlipp recounts a meeting he arranged at the request of Cecil King, the head of the International Publishing Corporation, between King and Lord Mountbatten of Burma. The meeting took place on May 8, 1968. Attending were Mountbatten, King, Cudlipp, and Sir Solly Zuckerman, the Chief Scientific Adviser to the British government.

According to Cudlipp:


"[Cecil] awaited the arrival of Sir Solly and then at once expounded his views on the gravity of the national situation, the urgency for action, and then embarked upon a shopping list of the Prime Minister's shortcomings...He explained that in the crisis he foresaw as being just around the corner, the Government would disintegrate, there would be bloodshed in the streets and the armed forces would be involved. The people would be looking to somebody like Lord Mountbatten as the titular head of a new administration, somebody renowned as a leader of men, who would be capable, backed by the best brains and administrators in the land, to restore public confidence. He ended with a question to Mountbatten- would he agree to be the titular head of a new administration in such circumstances?"

Mountbatten asked for the opinion of Zuckerman, who stated that the plan amounted to treason and left the room. Mountbatten expressed the same opinion, and King and Cudlipp left. On 30 May 1968 King was dismissed as the head of the International Publishing Corporation.

In addition to Mountbatten's refusal to participate in King's mooted plot, there is no evidence of any other conspirators. Cudlipp himself appears to see the meeting as an example of extreme egotism on King's part.

A later memoir by Harold Evans, former Times and Sunday Times editor, observed that the Times had egged on King's plans for a coup:


Rees-Mogg's Times backed the Conservative Party in every general election, but it periodically expressed yearnings for a coalition of the right-centre. In the late 1960s it encouraged Cecil King's lunatic notion of a coup against Harold Wilson's Labour Government in favour of a government of business leaders led by Lord Robens. In the autumn election of 1974, it predicted that economic crisis would produce a coalition government of national unity well inside five years and urged one there and then between Conservatives and Liberals.

William Rees-Mogg called for a coalition in a December 8, 1968 Times editorial entitled "The Danger to Britain", a day before King visited the Times office.

A BBC programme The Plot Against Harold Wilson, broadcast in 2006, reported that, in tapes recorded soon after his resignation on health grounds, Wilson stated that for eight months of his premiership he didn't "feel he knew what was going on, fully, in security". Wilson alleged two plots, in the late 1960s and mid-1970s respectively. He said that plans had been hatched to install Lord Mountbatten, Prince Charles's great uncle and mentor, as interim Prime Minister (see also Other conspiracy theories, below). He also claimed that ex-military leaders had been building up private armies in anticipation of "wholesale domestic liquidation". On a separate track, elements within MI5 had also, the BBC programme reported, spread "black propaganda" that Wilson and Williams were Soviet agents, and that Wilson was an IRA sympathiser, apparently with the intention of helping the Conservatives win the 1974 election.

1974 military coup plot

On the BBC television programme The Plot Against Harold Wilson, broadcast on March 16, 2006 on BBC2, it was claimed there were threats of a coup d'état against the Wilson government, which was corroborated by leading figures of the time on both the left and the right. Wilson told two BBC journalists, Roger Courtiour and Barrie Penrose, who recorded the meetings on a cassette tape recorder, that he feared he was being undermined by MI5. The first time was in the late 1960s after the Wilson Government devalued the pound sterling but the threat faded after Conservative leader Edward Heath won the election of 1970. However after a coal miners' strike Heath decided to hold an election to renew his mandate to govern in February 1974 but lost narrowly to Wilson. There was again talk of a military coup, with rumours of Lord Mountbatten as head of an interregnal administration after Wilson had been deposed. In 1974 the Army occupied Heathrow Airport on the grounds of training for possible IRA terrorist action at the airport. However Baroness Falkender (a senior aide and close friend of Wilson) asserted that the operation was ordered as a practice-run for a military takeover or as a show of strength, as the government itself was not informed of such an exercise based around a key point in the nation's transport infrastructure.

The Peter Wright allegations and Clockwork Orange[edit]

Peter Wright claimed that he was confronted by two of his MI5 colleagues and that they said to him: "Wilson's a bloody menace and it's about time the public knew the truth", and "We'll have him out, this time we'll have him out". Wright alleged that there was a plan to leak damaging information about Wilson and that this had been approved by 'up to thirty officers'. As the 1974 election approached, the plan went, MI5 would leak selective details of the intelligence about Labour leaders, especially Wilson, to 'sympathetic' journalists. According to Wright MI5 would use their contacts in the press and the trade unions to spread around the idea that Wilson was considered a security risk. The matter was to be raised in Parliament for 'maximum effect'. However Wright declined to let them see the files on Wilson and the plan was never carried out but Wright does claim it was a 'carbon copy' of the Zinoviev Letter which had helped destabilise the first Labour Government in 1924.

On March 22, 1987 former MI5 officer James Miller claimed that the Ulster Workers Council Strike of 1974 had been promoted by MI5 in order to help destabilise Wilson's government.

In July 1987, Labour MP, Ken Livingstone used his maiden speech to raise the allegations of a former Army press officer, Colin Wallace, that the Army press office in Northern Ireland had been used in the 1970s as part of a smear campaign, codenamed Clockwork Orange against Harold Wilson and other British and Irish politicians.

The public position of MI5 was established with the publication in 2009 of Defence of the Realm, the first authorised history of MI5, by Christopher Andrew, in which it is reported that, while MI5 kept a file on Wilson from 1945, when he became an MP – because communist civil servants claimed that he had similar political sympathies – there was no bugging of his home or office, and no conspiracy against him. However in 2010 newspaper reports made detailed allegations that the bugging of 10 Downing Street had been omitted from the history for "wider public interest reasons". In 1963 on Harold Macmillan's orders following the Profumo Affair MI5 bugged the cabinet room, the waiting room, and the prime minister’s study until the bugs were removed in 1977 on Jim Callaghan's orders. From the records it is unclear if Harold Wilson or Edward Heath knew of the bugging, and no recorded conversations were retained by MI5 so possibly the bugs were never activated. Professor Andrew had previously recorded in the preface of the history that "One significant excision as a result of these requirements (in the chapter on The Wilson Plot) is, I believe, hard to justify" giving credence to these new allegations.