FAA Medical req'd for Sim Training?

[ksjc]

Can I complete recurrent PIC training in the simulator for FAR 91 ops without a current medical certificate? If not please direct me to the specific FAR that states this?

Thanks.

[flyboyike]

The FARs don't require a medical for SIM training, HOWEVER a particular training provider may require one for whatever reason.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Might not be needed to start, but if the SIM is for a mandated check then needed for the check to be valid, as your licence is not valid without current medical.


glf

[FrankR]

I've seen this situation twice in the past five years. Even though it's not a "real airplane", there are piles of regulations. TSA and part 142 are at the top of the list, and each center does it a little differently.

I don't have the regs, and don't know the regs, but I'd say that it's doubtful that you can get in the sim without your pilot certificate medical certificate and US passport or TSA approval.

FR

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Actually can start ground training without TSA approval in hand, and can get in sim.... but I think not able to power up sim.....

I spend a lot of time as sim support, and was recently asked for my CURRENT Medical and TR...... for Mr FAA. glf

[Pace]

If you were just buying refresher training on a sim
Which did not have any basis on licensing then the answer would be no medical required!
Say it was part of a recurrent on a type rating you have to have a valid licence for that training so that the whole block of training and examining concludes with a revalidation of the rating on the licence!
Anyway that's how I read it

Pace

[FrankR]

Hi Pace,

Refresher training is the basis for a certificate. FAA calls it 61.58 currency...

So why else would you do training? It's for your certificate mandated currency. Also, TSA requires pilots to be 'blessed' before they get into a sim (this is a post 9-11 thing).

So call around, my bet is that you need a pilot cert and medical or it's no-deal

9-11 changed life as we know it, all those boys went to NETC in Minneapolis, and the feds have clamped down hard...

Why else would you need a US passport or TSA approval to play a computer game??

FR

[Pace]

FrankR

Yes Yes Yes I know that :ok: But even home sim clubs with members with no licence hire real sim time when there is space. It is not illegal to step into a sim without a license or medical thats my only point.

Pace

[ksjc]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Seems to me the requirement for a current medical during sim training is dependent on the pilot's circumstances.

In my particular case..US citizen, FAA ATP, recurrent Part 91 training... SimuFlite has confirmed to me that NO medical certificate is required by them for this training.

Looks to me the FARs state also that a current medical isn't needed for sim training and checking...

FAR 61.23

(b) Operations NOT (my emphasis) requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate...

(8) When taking a practical test or a proficiency check for a certificate, rating, authorization or operating privilege conducted in a glider, balloon, flight simulator, or flight training device.

As FAR's go this one looks pretty straight forward unless I am missing something.

[Pace]

KSJC

I would have thought a licence and medical would be required for testing but maybe I am wrong.

A recurrent is an expensive item and regardless for a relatively cheap and quick medical isn't it safer for you to get that first just incase? its a lot of money just to go down the drain?

Pace

[Trim Stab]

ksjc is correct - no medical required by FAR for any sim training or recurrent check.

[flyboyike]

One of the things that are different about us in the FAR world as compared to Europe end elsewhere is that our certificates (not licenses) are always "valid" unless specifically suspended or revoked by the FAA for a cause. That is to say, the validity of one's pilot certificate is not dependent on the validity (or even existence) of his medical certificate. The medical certificate affects the ability to exercise the privileges of the pilot certificate, but doesn't by default invalidate (or re-validate) it. It's a legal nuance, but it's an important one in that any training (recurrent or otherwise) taken in a manner not requiring a medical (such as sim training) is still perfectly valid even if the airman in question didn't have a valid medical at the time. He/she just won't be able to exercise the privileges of their certificate until he/she obtains a valid medical.

[Trim Stab]

One of the things that are different about us in the FAR world as compared to Europe end elsewhere is that our certificates (not licenses) are always "valid" unless specifically suspended or revoked by the FAA for a cause. That is to say, the validity of one's pilot certificate is not dependent on the validity (or even existence) of his medical certificate. The medical certificate affects the ability to exercise the privileges of the pilot certificate, but doesn't by default invalidate (or re-validate) it. It's a legal nuance, but it's an important one in that any training (recurrent or otherwise) taken in a manner not requiring a medical (such as sim training) is still perfectly valid even if the airman in question didn't have a valid medical at the time. He/she just won't be able to exercise the privileges of their certificate until he/she obtains a valid medical.

And all perfectly logical and rational - unlike most of EASA system!

[FrankR]

flyboymike:

What are you, a lawyer?? This is a bad thought process to go through... Talking yourself into thinking that you can do something.

I've seen pilots be denied access to sim for lack of a passport AND for lack of medical. It wasn't me, so I didn't get involved, but we all need to remember that there are many, many layers of rules and regulations involved here. So to say "you can do it, period" is the road to ruin, or at least the path to meltdown in the center managers office.

Now, speaking of the center manager, I sent a quick email to a friend in FSI LGB who cleared a lot of this up. Here's the link that says you don't need a medical...

FSIMS Document Viewer (http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch2,Sec19)

FR

[westhawk]

I don't think flyboyike needed to be a lawyer to properly interpret *FAR 61.23 FrankR! After all that's the very reg the FSIMS doc you posted refers to and it's all right there for anyone to read.

Now when it comes to part 142 sim training center policy being different, I agree completely. I've seen pilots turned away from the sim too. Usually for failing to have all TSA required documentation, (such as a valid passport) but for other reasons too.

In the distant past, a medical WAS required to take a flight test for a rating in the sim, but this policy was changed by FAR. (about a decade ago? can't remember...) Anyway, I remember CAE turning a guy away from his ATP/type checkride due to lack of current 1st class medical. This was shortly after the FAA policy change. Apparently from what I heard being discussed, they knew about the policy change but the training center documentation process had not yet been updated and approved by the FAA! So tough luck Charlie... (the guy in question had to obtain a new medical before they checked him)

On another note, the more you know....! (being a bit of a hangar lawyer is necessary sometimes, at least for non-union pilots)

*CFR title 14 61.23 for the true new-age PITA pedant!
westhawk

[flyboyike]

Hey, Frank, when you get a chance to step off that high horse of yours, read my very first response to this thread.

[FrankR]

OK, I reread it, your first response was spot on.

FR