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gingernut
17th Jan 2014, 16:54
Following a wasted youth at law school, there remains somewhere in the dark dim corners of my memory, a phrase "cruel and unusual punishment."

I was a little surprised by this phrase

In court proceedings last week, an Ohio state prosecutor said bluntly: “You're not entitled to a pain-free execution,” and a judge allowed the execution to proceed.in this case.... Ohio executes inmate using untried, untested lethal injection method | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/16/ohio-executes-inmate-untried-untested-lethal-injection-method)



As a self confessed, sandal wearing, Guardian reading namby pamby sort of guy, I was even more surprised with the little sense of joy on reading this story.:ooh:

Of course, there are no winners.

500N
17th Jan 2014, 16:59
Tough. No sympathy.

"McGuire, 53, was executed for the 1989 rape and murder of Joy Stewart, who was 22 and about 30-weeks pregnant at the time. Her unborn child also died. Members of Stewart’s family were present at his execution, and before it they put out a statement that said the manner in which McGuire was put to death was more humane than the brutal way he had murdered Joy."

Sop_Monkey
17th Jan 2014, 16:59
Untried and untested sure. It has now been tested I believe.

Who else could they have tested it on? The screws?

cavortingcheetah
17th Jan 2014, 17:02
No indeed, but the disgustingmost losers are the namby pamby sandal wearing Guardian readers who apply sufficient pressure in Europe so as to have the export of Propofol to the States banned. This prescribes only the alternative of a painful death for the miscreants and the probability of eternal damnation for themselves at such time as the hearts are weighed in the balance.

obgraham
17th Jan 2014, 17:03
Gingernut, anyone who equates "strange movements and gasping" with some sort of torture, has never observed a general anesthetic. Many patients gasp, or twitch. I expect that having been given a big dose of whatever, the perp here was rendered unconscious very quickly.

That begs the question of comparing the perp's demise with his victim's.

I think if folks are opposed to the death penalty, that's fine. But this episode is simply an attempt at rationalization.

SASless
17th Jan 2014, 17:06
Should not State Executions of Citizens t be a bit repugnant.....so we don't get too comfortable with it being done?

While you are at it....consider the crimes that the Condemned had perpetrated to earn that Sentence.

He raped and murdered by stabbing, an eight month pregnant newly wed young woman.

Compare her suffering and pain as an innocent victim to any pain this fellow felt during his death?

I absolutely detest the Lethal Injection method of execution.

I very much like the notion of the Gas Chamber, Gallows and Hanging, or even the Guillotine.

I want the Condemned Person to know his Death is imminent and that there is absolutely nothing he can do to stop it. The thought that goes through the mind when they hear the Pellets drop into the acid, the trap fall from beneath their feet, or the falling of the blade is the last thing they consider as they leave this Life.

That to me is the ultimate punishment.

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 17:08
Now that I think of it, I would actually like there to be a significant amount of discomfort experienced by those who have been convicted of tortuous, hideous murders as we, the public take their lives as they took the lives of innocents.

Serves them right.

500N
17th Jan 2014, 17:08
Question for those in the know re the difference between putting animals down and injecting humans.

Only had to put one animal down, dog, when they administered the syringe
of green whatever, her heart stopped almost immediately (I had a hand feeling the pulse) and she went limp straight away in my arms. It was as fast as when I have
put down sheep with a knife via the throat / spine.

So if we can put down animals that quickly, why not humans ?

Tankertrashnav
17th Jan 2014, 17:11
No indeed, but the disgustingmost losers are the namby pamby sandal wearing Guardian readers


I'm totally opposed to the death penalty - in all cases.

I've never read the Guardian in my life

Anyone who calls me namby pamby to my face will get a punch on the nose!

;)


So if we can put down animals that quickly, why not humans ?



I suspect because those in favour of the death penalty dont want it to be quick. Pierrepoint reckoned to get a prisoner from sitting in the condemned cell to hanging lifeless on the end of a rope in around 15 seconds - much more efficient than this lethal injection nonsense. But as Pierrepoint himself eventually came to acknowledge even his "humane" method was ultimately useless as a deterrent and only served to provide vengeance.

Krystal n chips
17th Jan 2014, 17:13
Relax Ginge, very soon the usual will be along to explain how the damn punk / perp etc kinda got what he deserved ...yes sir !

However, this cute little story beggars belief..... and in Texas as well !....who would have believed it !

Texas teen kills four in drunken crash but gets probation after parents? wealth blamed | The Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/11/texas-teen-kills-four-in-drunken-crash-but-gets-probation-after-parents-wealth-blamed/)

After all, most of those who will defend the death penalty on this thread are also the most vocal about accepting responsibility and, erm, the problems caused by...dysfunctional parenting ( always with regard to those who are clearly only fit to live on council estates of course ) stereotyping is so much simpler than reasoning in this respect.

Edited to say if there is a Guiness Book of Records section for the "Fastest Defence of the Indefensible Response on JB ", there are two prime contenders.....well done chaps !:ugh:

gingernut
17th Jan 2014, 17:16
It's a long time since I was in a theatre with proper actors Obs G :-)

I have some use of using Midazolam clinically, and have even had a little trial myself. . (Tooth extraction).

I can't remember anything about the incident. I believe it erases memory, but doesn't take away pain, which is an interesting concept. Did I have pain during my tooth extraction ? Did it matter if I can't remember it ?? Does memory matter if you're being put to death ???

From memory, it did completely erase my memory. I've been told (by Mrs G), that I wanted to go dancing and made a pass at my mother in law- now that IS frightening.

Capetonian
17th Jan 2014, 17:21
Unusual : maybe. Who cares?

Cruel : probably. Good. Not only does it serve as a deterrent (arguably) but it ensures permanent removal from the surface of the earth of such lowlife and ensures beyond any doubt that they won't reoffend.

tony draper
17th Jan 2014, 17:28
Bollix! execution should hurt.:E

John Hill
17th Jan 2014, 17:44
I dont know about injecting humans but I was told by a vet that the mixture he uses to kill pets is mostly an extremely rapid muscle relaxant, heart stops and animal goes limp without any distressing twitching or thrashing about. Nothing like cutting the throat and breaking the sheep's neck or chopping the head off the Sunday lunch chook.

Keeping someone on death row until they have served what would in other countries be a 'life' sentence then executing them seems weird enough but what really takes the cake is keeping juveniles in prison until they are old enough to execute, WTF?

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 18:05
Thanks for the shout-out, Lone_Ranger!

I agree with you also on the matter that the executions should take place within hours of the conviction. Think of the money we could save by not housing the vermin for decades while they await their punishment.

brickhistory
17th Jan 2014, 18:09
Don't worry the people enforcing these policies will describe themselves as good christians........this makes it all OK



But not a word or thought for the victims. A young pregnant woman raped and murdered.

Not much to be Christian about in those acts.

Vermin eradication. Why should he get to continue processing oxygen when he forced his view and choice on his victim?

Rob Courtney
17th Jan 2014, 18:24
Pierrepoint reckoned to get a prisoner from sitting in the condemned cell to hanging lifeless on the end of a rope in around 15 seconds

If I remember correctly, Syd Dernley one of his assistants said the quickest on record was 9 seconds :eek:

When you think of the American method of strapping them in and then reading out the charge and finally asking for last words the British method really was the most humane

John Hill
17th Jan 2014, 18:29
Should the victim's family have a say in the execution? What if they want to be all 'Christian' and forgive the perp? What say the state governor (or whoever) grants a pardon should the family be able to demand the execution go ahead?

So many questions to answer when a country practices the death penalty.

goudie
17th Jan 2014, 18:29
If it had been one of my daughters he'd raped and murdered, I would wish upon him the most hideous and painful death imaginable.

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Jan 2014, 18:45
export of Propofol to the States banned
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal), that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life ...
[somehow that lot doesn't count as ten characters ...???!!]

brickhistory
17th Jan 2014, 18:58
Again, not a word about the victim. A young pregnant woman raped and murdered as was her unborn baby.

No attempt to twist the words of liberty to what was taken from her? Which was the "life" you quote the U.S. Constitution as protecting. Not that of a duly tried and convicted murderer's.

Speaks volumes of values.

Dushan
17th Jan 2014, 19:41
My letter to the local paper, in response to the news article:

The article, in part, quotes the executed convict's lawyer: "… which would cause him to experience terror as he strained to catch his breath". Let's hope that he experienced at least as much terror as his victim, a young pregnant woman whom he raped and fatally stabbed.

Dushan
17th Jan 2014, 19:49
Should the victim's family have a say in the execution?
So many questions to answer when a country practices the death penalty.

Maybe the aunt should have a say...

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 20:18
The yin and yang of the capital punishment question will always generate lively debate.

I've given the issue a lot of thought, and I've lived in states with and without capital punishment, though we haven't had swift justice in any state in my lifetime, the mandatory appeals, endless obstructions, etc. negating the most salient deterrent value of capital punishment.

The yin is in the humane and respectable desire to not take life, which is, I think the essential basis for those opposed to capital punishment. The yang is that, in the absence of the real deterrent of capital punishment, more lives are brutally taken by murderers, who are not held to account commensurate with the enormity of their crimes.

I believe that anyone who takes a life should forfeit his life should he be apprehended and convicted under the law. The capital sentence should be limited to those cases where there is absolute certainty, I think, as opposed to the 'reasonable doubt' standard. I can readily accept that concession to the weightiness of adjudicating the death sentence.

What I can't abide is the all too frequent instances of convicted murderers being released on parole and doing it again. That is state malfeasance.

OFSO
17th Jan 2014, 20:28
In abstract: an awful way to terminate someone's life after he's sentenced to death.

But specifically: if he'd killed one of my family, nothing would have been too bad for him.

I doubt if anyone here would feel differently.

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Jan 2014, 20:30
No attempt to twist the words of liberty to what was taken from her?
Not at all.

It's you, not me, who's trying to twist "unalienable".

You want it to mean "sometimes, depending", but that's not what it says.

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 20:32
And don't forget that this new concoction adopted by Ohio was brought about by anti-CP zealots suing to define previous chemical concoctions as cruel and unusual.

The firing squad is the most humane. Merely a millisecond between the impact and the abyss. And it's cheap.

spInY nORmAn
17th Jan 2014, 20:56
But in the true fashion of the day, the family of the executed is now suing the state - Murderer?s family launching lawsuit after ?failed, agonizing? 25-minutes-long execution | National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/17/failed-agonizing-25-minutes-long-ohio-execution-spurs-lawsuit-from-condemneds-family/)

Sallyann1234
17th Jan 2014, 21:00
I'm all in favour of the death penalty, and would be happy for the method of despatch with its attendant pain to be related to the severity of the crime.
But what do you say to the innocent people who have been wrongly convicted and despatched - and there have been many?

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 21:05
Gertrude,

So if your pursuit of happiness involves the throttling of others, you would point to the philosophical underpinnings of the Declaration? C'mon, you don't really believe that, do you?

When the Declaration of Independence was written, and later, the Constitution, capital punishment was rampant and justice was swift. The rule of law established by our new republic didn't change any of that. Our current dialogue began in the early 1960s, which was when our country started the process of falling apart.

But what do you say to the innocent people who have been wrongly convicted and despatched - and there have been many?

You establish absolute certainty in place of reasonable doubt as the standard for capital punishment.

Fliegenmong
17th Jan 2014, 21:33
executed for the 1989 rape and murder

So for 25 years, a quarter of a century, the people of the state of Ohio have been feeding housing clothing this creep?!? So how much did all of that cost?:ugh:

In cases of absolute proof beyond any shadow of doubt (As in Martin Bryant for instance) death penalty for sure.....but making it torturous..seems somehow a little like lowering one's good self to the level of the crim. Yes yes I know, the terror of the victim etc., understand that...but an element of civility is what sets us apart from the likes of Al qaeda, or those clowns that hacked apart Lee Rigby.......I guess I'm trying to say I don't wish to see western civilisation sink to the depths of towelheads.....

Then again if it was one of my family...

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Jan 2014, 21:48
So if your pursuit of happiness involves the throttling of others, you would point to the philosophical underpinnings of the Declaration? C'mon, you don't really believe that, do you?
Well, that's precisely my point, isn't it.

For many Americans the "pursuit of happiness" involves playing with guns and shooting people, and that seems to override "life", even though "life" comes first.

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 21:52
Exactly, and those who would play with guns and shoot people in the pursuit of their happiness run afoul of our civil society, which is within its right to eliminate them.

Tankertrashnav
17th Jan 2014, 21:56
If it had been one of my daughters he'd raped and murdered, I would wish upon him the most hideous and painful death imaginable.

Me too, probably, which is why we have a judicial system. Of course wecould always go back to kangaroo courts and lynch law, but I suspect that the number of innocent people who have undoubtedly been executed over the years would multiply tenfold.

All you seeking vengeance might reflect on the fate of Ian Brady. One of the first mass murderers to escape the death penalty after it was effectively abolished in 1965 (?), he has languished in prison for almost 50 years, for the last ten of which he has been asking to be allowed to die. Surely justice and punishment have been better served allowing this man to live out his natural term in the certain knowledge that he would never walk free.

BenThere
17th Jan 2014, 22:26
While I don't know the particulars of Ian Brady's case, I am curious that if he was guilty beyond doubt, how did it serve the public to keep him alive all those years at great expense if his crime warranted his execution?

ricardian
17th Jan 2014, 22:35
Why not administer the lethal injection with an unsterelized needle?

Noah Zark.
17th Jan 2014, 22:40
Why not administer the lethal injection with an unsterelized needle?
Can it be rusty as well? :}

pigboat
17th Jan 2014, 23:14
..that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life ...

Which right, of course, also applies to the victim.

con-pilot
17th Jan 2014, 23:17
I'm totally opposed to the death penalty - in all cases.

Sorry Tank, but I disagee, strongly.

There are those people in society that are not human any longer, if they ever were in the first place. They have commited crimes so henious to stagger the imagination, removed themselves from any consideration of being treatred as a human and should put down as one does a mad dog.

I know, I've met some and transported many more. I've read their 'rap' sheets. Men that have cold bloodly killed men, women and children with no more remorse than a normal person would have over killing a fly.

The problem with life imprisonment is, they do not stop killing even while in prison.

Those of you that are against the death penalty, need to consider the people that you are endangering by letting these animals live. Other prisoners and the prison staff. Let along the predictable carange that would follow in the wake of these people should they escape. The majority of convicted murders kill again should they escape before they are caught.

Without question the guidelines of sentencing someone to death, must be above reproach and the guilt/evidence extremely overwhelming, to not leave the slightest doubt.

SASless
18th Jan 2014, 00:22
The problem with life imprisonment is, they do not stop killing even while in prison.

If you could keep the Killer isolated from Staff and only allow access to other Prisoners.....well now.....:E I am trying hard to see the down side to that situation!

Just enact a Law that makes Murder inside a Correctional Institute a Mandatory Death Penalty....allow exactly one Appeal.....fast track the Appeal....and carry out the Sentence immediately upon the Court rejecting the Appeal.

As no Prisoner is allowed to have a weapon of any kind.....mere possession of a Shank should be a Mandatory Death Penalty.

If a Prison cannot be made "safe".....there is no hope for Society in general.

SawMan
18th Jan 2014, 00:27
Personally I don't like the idea of killing people, but if there is an absolute certainty (more than just a level inre "reasonable doubt") that someone needs executing, then by gosh do it as quickly and as cheaply as possible. They gave up their right to expect humane treatment when they caused such suffering to the victim etal. And if the guvment won't do this, then just release the bad guy after letting folks know when and where that will occur and giving us time to load the cars and the guns to 'greet' them on their release.

Sadly, justice in the US is reserved for the rich and many have been wrongfully convicted, and likely executed too. I should not be taxed to support a killer's life when I'd not do that voluntarily. I'd rather pay for the rope or the bullet they deserve, but only when their guilt is certain.

cattletruck
18th Jan 2014, 00:45
Just enact a Law that makes Murder inside a Correctional Institute a Mandatory Death Penalty..

One of the infamous stories of Chopper Reid whilst serving time in jail was when word got around that a sicko pedophile was checking in, he and the other prison leaders decided that the first one to see him would kill him. Chopper was the first to see him and remained true to his word.

Airey Belvoir
18th Jan 2014, 00:48
In cases of absolute proof beyond any shadow of doubt (As in Martin Bryant for instance)


Hmm. Perhaps not quite so cut and dried if one has an open mind.






"On 28 April 1996 at Port Arthur in Australia, some of the best combat shooters in the world used a total of only 64 bullets to kill 35 people, wound 22 more, and cripple two cars. The first 19 victims in the Broad Arrow Cafe each died from a single 5.56-mm bullet to the head, all fired in less than 20 seconds from the right hip of a fast-moving combat shooter. This awesome display of marksmanship was blamed on an intellectually impaired young man called Martin Bryant, who had no shooting or military experience at all. In the months and years following Martin’s arrest, much of the public and private strain fell on his widowed mother Carleen. This is a very small part of Carleen Bryant’s profoundly disturbing story." --Joe Vialls


full article http://members.iinet.net.au/~jenks/carleen.html (http://members.iinet.net.au/~jenks/carleen.html)

obgraham
18th Jan 2014, 03:04
Actually, Sasless, I prefer the opposite. Encourage the habituees to have weapons. Let them take out their vengeance on each other.

Agree we need to keep the staff safe. The perps, not so much.

SASless
18th Jan 2014, 03:39
OB....upon reflection upon what Cattletruck had to say.....I think you are absolutely right.:ok:

Tankertrashnav
18th Jan 2014, 08:28
While I don't know the particulars of Ian Brady's case, I am curious that if he was guilty beyond doubt, how did it serve the public to keep him alive all those years at great expense if his crime warranted his execution?


Brady is a household name in the UK, and there are many pages on the net about him, but briefly he was a child killer who was convicted on indisputable evidence, together with his girlfriend accomplice, who herself died in jail some years ago.

It is indisputable that is very expensive to keep people in prison (cheaper to send them to Eton, apparently) but my point was that if executed, his problems would have finished there and then, a few weeks after his conviction. We never had the ludicrous situation of convicts sitting on death row for years on end whilst teams of lawyers sent their kids through college on proceeds of the Byzantine appeals procedures you have in the US. In the UK, if the Home Secretary turned down the appeal, execution took place within a few weeks. Keeping Brady (and his like) incarcerated for life has certainly been more of a punishment for them than a quick and merciful death at the end of a rope.

Con-pilot's point on possible danger to other convicts and prison warders is valid, and while this has not been much of a problem here in the past, it may be more prevalent in the future, as our prisons appear to be gradually descending to the sort of anarchy which seems to be widespread in US institutions.

PTT
18th Jan 2014, 08:43
A painful death penalty is all a bit embarrassing when someone who is executed in such a manner is later exonerated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates), which is pretty much the reason the death penalty was removed in the UK in 1965.

Good luck compensating the wrongfully convicted :ok:

It comes down to whether protecting innocence (of everyone) is more important than punishing wrongdoing, as ever.

PLovett
18th Jan 2014, 09:54
For the truth on executions in the US rather than some of the fanciful stuff posted here I suggest listening to the following.

Sister Helen Prejean (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/features/inbedwithphillip/episodes/29-dead-man-walking/)

You might even learn something.

A B, any link that suggests anyone other than Martin Bryant was the perpetrator at Port Arthur is wearing a tinfoil hat.

radeng
18th Jan 2014, 10:19
BenThere said:

>Now that I think of it, I would actually like there to be a significant amount of discomfort experienced by those who have been convicted of tortuous, hideous murders as we, the public take their lives as they took the lives of innocents.<

Logically then, the execution should include being dragged through the streets behind a cart before being publicly hung, drawn and quartered. But covering the quarters in pitch and displaying them at the city gates is a bit unhealthy.

In this Ohio case, there seems no definite information about unconsciousness or otherwise. To answer it probably needs an EKG carried out during the execution of the next Ohio one in March.

There is apparently evidence from the 19th century of consciousness remaining for a few seconds after decapitation.....

A quote from the Mikado springs to mind....

rh200
18th Jan 2014, 11:17
Hmm. Perhaps not quite so cut and dried if one has an open mind.

The 911 and moon landing wack jobs have more credence than that one.

jayteeto
18th Jan 2014, 12:43
First and foremost, I AGREE with the death penalty, however............

The courts have sentenced the man to death, not torture and death.

We must strive to carry out sentence by the most swift method available. To cause suffering takes away our moral superiority. By that, I mean that we lower ourselves to the same standard as the criminal. There are various drugs available on the market, unfortunately the desired ones have been withdrawn by manufacturers. Texas have changed their drugs and have a tried and tested procedure that appears to be better than this one (I think it is different???). Even hanging has to be better than this method???

I would have no problem being a state executioner and would sleep soundly at night, but this system of drugs appears to have crossed the line for me. Justice, not torture.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Jan 2014, 12:59
Which right, of course, also applies to the victim
Yes, so the state failed to deliver on both.

Of course no state can actually deliver on a "right to life", as no state has infinite money to spend on medical care for its citizens, to pick just one blindingly obvious example. So it's a daft "right" to seek to claim, especially if you try to claim it's "inalienable" (rather than "as convenient depending on the circumstances, other things being equal, subject to resources, ect ect"), isn't it.

cockney steve
18th Jan 2014, 13:35
Pwrhaps someone can enlighten me?

All these fancy cocktails of exotic drugs, to kill murderers......why? Druggies have been overdosing on opiates (morphine and Heroin?)
for years..... in all countries where these drugs are illegal, the Law Enforcement Agencies have large siezures of these and other narcotics.

It's well established that , whilst concious, at any rate, users are not discomfited or writhing in agony. Therefore it's a "nice" way to go..:\

I can't see any coherent objection from the huggy-fluffs on that score.


Oh, dear, I forgot, these drugs are highly addictive......no worries, I don't think the recipient is going to be trying to "score" another "fix"
So, there's plenty of stock, it hasn't cost anything, other than the siezure and storage-costs....What's the objection....apart from Big Business losing out.

I think the long, drawn-out appeals process is grotesque and inhumane...to a large part, it's necessitated by the piss-poor legal system that means justice has to be bought.

We have had several cases of convictions being overturned in UK, -usually to do with corrupt /incompetent prosecutors.

If and when they are made truly answerable for their shortcomings, we may have a more reliable conviction-rate. In the absence of any apparent deterrent sanctions against those who fail in their duties, I think it unsafe to re-introduce the Death-Penalty in UK.

radeng
18th Jan 2014, 14:43
If you follow that line, Steve, you just need to make sure the confiscated illegal drugs have been analysed first, because there's a lot of them get diluted with other stuff.

But an intravenous dose of potassium chloride will kill very quickly by stopping the heart: with an unconscious patient, it would be painless. I understand that when a defibrillator is implanted, the heart is deliberately stopped so the defibrillator operation can be checked.

KBPsen
18th Jan 2014, 15:24
it would be painless.Can't have that.

Cruelty seems to be an often found trait in those in favour of the death penalty. It's not enough to take a life, which is the ultimate thing you can do to another human being, the condemned has to suffer too.

Tankertrashnav
18th Jan 2014, 15:27
If there is one crime for which I might reintroduce the death penalty it would be using the term "huggy fluff" to refer to anyone whose views are a millimetre to the left of Genghis Khans :*

Pack it in - if I started to referring to anyone whose views were marginally less liberal than my own as a nazi or a fascist I would be rightly castigated. This subject deserves a better level of argument than puerile name calling. Both sides have valid arguments to make

con-pilot
18th Jan 2014, 16:38
Con-pilot's point on possible danger to other convicts and prison warders is valid, and while this has not been much of a problem here in the past, it may be more prevalent in the future, as our prisons appear to be gradually descending to the sort of anarchy which seems to be widespread in US institutions.

Thank you Tanker.

I neglected to point out that where most the killings in prison occures are in State prisons. The Federal Prison system has pretty well changed procedures to where murders in Federal prisons are realtively rare. Also, if a prisoner does kill anyone* in prison and is found guilty of such, they recieve the death penalty.

But then again, the Feds have a hell of a lot more money to fund prisons with than states do.

One more point needs be made. When the US Goverment restored the death penalty for murder while the killer was in the Federal Prison system, the murder rate in federal prisons dropped to nearly zero*. One more major change that occured with prisoners while in the Federal Prison system was, that all inmated are transfered on a irregual basis to other federal prisons. This helps break up prison gangs. Oh, and why I had a job with the Marshal Service flying 727s.

The above is one reason that proffesional criminals that are considering comitting a major crime, that if caught will result in a very long prison sentence will try to make the crime a Federal case, so that they will end up in Federal prison.


* I've related this story prior here, about taking a proffesional prison hit man to a 'posh' prison in San Diego that had killed a number of other prisoners while in the Federal system, before the death penalty was restored. He price for killing someone was four cartons of cigarettes. He was already serving life without chance of parole for murder. So if he kept killing while in prison, there was nothing else they could do to him. After the death sentance was reinstituted, he retied and turned 'State's Evidence', telling who had ordered the hits.

His reward was to spend the rest of his life in a 'posh' federal prison in San Diego, which is more like an high rise apartment (flat) building than a normal prison. I was told that his cell even had an ocean view.

The only nicer prison in the federal system, believe it or not, is Gitmo. No, I'm not kidding.

Tankertrashnav
18th Jan 2014, 17:08
So what do you reckon I might have to do to get an ocean view apartment in San Diego, Con? Miserable, wet January day here in Cornwall - sounds like an attractive move ;)

Think I'll pass on Gitmo, though!

obgraham
18th Jan 2014, 17:22
Caco:

Since your main goals in life seem to be sympathizing with murderers, suicide bombers, and abusers of women, I will wear your threats as a badge of honor.

Perhaps you can engage the services of your fatwah-producing friends.

And then look up "hyperbole" in your dictionary.

con-pilot
18th Jan 2014, 17:29
Think I'll pass on Gitmo, though!

Well don't be too hasty now. ;)

A. All inmates now have private airconditioned rooms, err cells.

B. Satellite TVs. They can even watch Al Jazeera if they want to.

C. Set in a tropical paradise that thousands of Canadian and European tourists pay to visit.

D. A full sized soccer (football) field, along with a full scope workout exercise room, with equiptment that would put most health clubs to shame.

E. A kitchen that will cook food to order. (Try finding that in any other prison in the world.)

F. The Red Cross has an on site office with a large staff that all inmates have unlimited access to.

G. A fully staffed hospital on site that can perform all but the most serious of surgeries.

So, like I posted, the nicest prison anyone could ever hope to be held in.

Course the trick is, don't do anything that might make you end up in prison in the first place. As no matter how nice a prison may be and most are decidedly not, you're still in prison. :p


Guantanamo Bay

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/con-pilot/Gitmo_Aerial.jpg (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/con-pilot/media/Gitmo_Aerial.jpg.html)

galaxy flyer
18th Jan 2014, 17:50
My curiosity got me to look up "Chopper Read" (unsurprisingly, he has a wiki page)--one bad a** dude, impressive in a weird way. It seems the gun laws in Oz were largely not applicable to gentleman.

KBPsen,

If the ultimate thing you can do to a person is deny them their "right to life", isn't that the exactly correct punishment?

GF

500N
18th Jan 2014, 18:25
Galaxy

Bad ass dude maybe but fae better than a whole heap of other scumbags like the crims of the last 14 years who went around shooting each other - and the cops.

At least Chopper didn't target cops, one of the reasons he survived
as he lived in an era where shooting people by cops was accepted.

He was still a bad ass crim though.

brickhistory
18th Jan 2014, 18:29
It's not enough to take a life, which is the ultimate thing you can do to
another human being, the condemned has to suffer too.


Again, not a word regarding the victim; in this case a young pregnant woman who was raped before being stabbed to death.

I'm thinking she suffered before her death and she did nothing to warrant her death.

The soulless devil in this case did. And I hope it hurt. A lot.

air pig
18th Jan 2014, 19:15
Brady is a household name in the UK, and there are many pages on the net about him, but briefly he was a child killer who was convicted on indisputable evidence, together with his girlfriend accomplice, who herself died in jail some years ago.

It is indisputable that is very expensive to keep people in prison (cheaper to send them to Eton, apparently) but my point was that if executed, his problems would have finished there and then, a few weeks after his conviction. We never had the ludicrous situation of convicts sitting on death row for years on end whilst teams of lawyers sent their kids through college on proceeds of the Byzantine appeals procedures you have in the US. In the UK, if the Home Secretary turned down the appeal, execution took place within a few weeks. Keeping Brady (and his like) incarcerated for life has certainly been more of a punishment for them than a quick and merciful death at the end of a rope.

Brady and Hindley committed their heinous crimes during the moratorium before the abolition of capital punishment. They missed being hung by just months. Hindley is now dead, Brady who is on some sort of hunger strike is detained under the Mental health Act at Ashworth. Recently he made an appeal to the Mental Health Tribunal in an attempt to be declared sane and then serve the remainder of his sentence at a normal high security prison. As he is insane we have a duty of care in law to keep him alive. He would not survive long in a normal prison.

PTT
18th Jan 2014, 19:44
I'm thinking she suffered before her death and she did nothing to warrant her death.

The soulless devil in this case did.Assuming the correct individual was punished, of course...

GrumpyOldFart
18th Jan 2014, 19:49
If there is one crime for which I might reintroduce the death penalty it
would be using the term "huggy fluff" to refer to anyone whose views are a millimetre to the left of Genghis Khan's



Yer treading on dangerous ground there, Tanky. That expression was given to the world by no less than the Father Of The Forum. He has a list of those who will be dealt with, come the Revolution.


:=

KBPsen
18th Jan 2014, 19:50
Again, not a word regarding the victim;I was not referring to any specific case. I would think any decent society has means in place to see to the needs of victims and also has the ability to differentiate between care for victims and sentencing and how this is to be carried out. I wouldn't care much for a justice system based on simple revenge.

If the manner in which a sentence is to be carried has to reflect or be similar to the manner in which the crime was committed in order to satisfy the victim, relatives or public how is that then different from what the convicted has done?

Pleasure in inflicting suffering is the definition of cruelty and I find it difficult to see how anyone taking pleasure in such can see themselves as morally superior. Which I think you would have see yourself as in order to sentence anyone to death.

con-pilot
18th Jan 2014, 20:40
Which I think you would have see yourself as in order to sentence anyone to death.

Not when it comes to Timothy McVeigh.

I am morally superior to him.

500N
18th Jan 2014, 21:11
KBP

I think you underestimate what people are capable of doing,
especially in a non war situation if family is involved. Think
mother, children et al.

Con-Pilot's person is a good one as well. I can think of others
like Manson, Brady, Hindley as already mentioned.

SASless
18th Jan 2014, 21:37
A few weeks back, a young man and his very pregnant wife returned home from shopping to discover their home being broken into by Burglars. The Husband dropped his Wife off at a nearby Convenience Store, called the Police and reported the Break-In in progress. He then drove back to his home....but the Burglars were still there.....shot him to death in his front yard and left the area with items stolen from the house.

All four were apprehended and are in custody.

Usual story...long criminal records....minimum sentences, probation, parole....drug users....and one failure after another by the system to take them off the streets before this happened.

There was a Benefit put on for the Widow who is expecting her child in the next couple of weeks. My Motorcycle group and others showed up in mass.....well over two hundred Motorcycles.....a 25 mile ride to the Volunteer Fire Station where the murdered fellow served as a firefighter and EMT when emergencies occurred.

Despite it being 24 Degrees F.....doing something to support that young Woman who lost her Husband and the Father to her unborn Child.....warmed our hearts....and reminds us of the reality of the cost of violent crime. Well over a Thousand people turned out today alone to show their support for the family of the young fellow that was so callously murdered.

I talked with a member of the SWAT Team who was involved in the Man Hunt that followed the Crime......and it is a crying shame the four Perps did not want to stand and fight when apprehended.....as the SWAT Team would have been more than glad to respond to the Perps shooting at them. Sadly, Perps know shooting at armed and ready Men is not the way to live very long......but they have no problem shooting an unarmed young Man for no reason what so ever.

My State has the Death Penalty.....and I pray these four get it upon conviction.

Capetonian
18th Jan 2014, 21:54
My State has the Death Penalty.....and I pray these four get it upon conviction. I'll join you in that. You are perhaps fortunate to live somewhere that has the death penalty, or maybe unfortunate enough to live somewhere that needs it, the eternal paradox.

The death penalty was abolished in my country on 6th. June 1995. Since then violent crime has soared. I'm not saying it is due to the abolition of the death penalty, there are a million other reasons, but doing away with it was a backward step.

Dushan
19th Jan 2014, 02:48
Assuming the correct individual was punished, of course...

He admitted to it.

Dushan
19th Jan 2014, 02:54
I was not referring to any specific case. I would think any decent society has means in place to see to the needs of victims and also has the ability to differentiate between care for victims and sentencing and how this is to be carried out. I wouldn't care much for a justice system based on simple revenge.

.

The 22 year old, pregnant, woman was raped and stabbed to death by this insect. How do you suggest we "see to the needs of the victim"?

CityofFlight
19th Jan 2014, 04:46
Pleasure in inflicting suffering is the definition of cruelty and I find it difficult to see how anyone taking pleasure in such can see themselves as morally superior. Which I think you would have see yourself as in order to sentence anyone to death.

Personally, I think along the lines of Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dhamer, Timothy McVeigh, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bib Laden, Pol Pot, Hitler....for them and many, many more, the preponderance of guilt is unquestionable. If they happened to suffer during execution, I wouldn't take pleasure at all and I suspect many chest thumpers wouldn't either, truth be told. Nor would I lose sleep or get on a soapbox over the rights of the convicted. There is the rumor that Hussein didn't die right away from his hanging. Sorry...no second thought on my part for him. Shit happens.

To Brick's point...if your daughter, sister, mother, had been RAPED & MURDERED so horrendously, while pregnant with a baby in the 3rd trimester, a baby that would likely have lived outside the womb, what thought would YOU have for people so concerned about the comfort and rights of a heinous murderer? Dear Gawd, here was a woman violently attacked and killed, in terror as she died! The convicted was not claiming innocence or judicial wrong doing.

Again...I am not advocating or taking pleasure in the suffering during an execution. I hate to kill a bug or trap a mouse. But in the event that my loved ones were destroyed but a violent human, deadly bugs, vermin or a pack of wild dogs, I wouldn't bat an eye if they were destroyed by the people contracted to do so legally. In such cases, the intent is usually to be swift.

Sometimes shit happens.

PTT
19th Jan 2014, 07:06
@ Dushan - Must be true, then... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession)

Worrals in the wilds
19th Jan 2014, 09:48
A painful death penalty is all a bit embarrassing when someone who is executed in such a manner is later exonerated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates), which is pretty much the reason the death penalty was removed in the UK in 1965. Have there been many recent exonerations though? The bulk of recent overturned convictions here date from flawed investigations in the 1970-80s before DNA, CCTV, accountable coppers, and before rights/privileges such as lawyers were routinely offered to the accused. Often in those cases it turns out that there were assumptions made on flawed evidence and rampantly biassed police investigations that weren't subject to an effective process.

Recent convictions are based on much more solid evidence than those in the early 1960s, and are subject to far greater public scrutiny. Additionally, there are far more rigorous appeals processes. Wherever the jurisdiction, I think that a person convicted of murder in 2014 has been subject to much more damning evidence against them and a much fairer process than a person convicted in 1965.
B. Satellite TVs. They can even watch Al Jazeera if they want toI'd heard you guys were still practising torture. :}:E

Tankertrashnav
19th Jan 2014, 09:52
OK Con, you've convinced me, I'll add Gitmo to the list.

Do I get a choice, do you think?

radeng
19th Jan 2014, 11:32
Worrals,

'accountable coppers'? Maybe in Oz, but here it's doubtful and in Fullerton, California, even more so.

Police-beating verdict cause for cynicism | UTSanDiego.com (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/jan/17/Kelly-Thomas-beating-verdict-reason-for-cynicism/)

Worrals in the wilds
19th Jan 2014, 12:01
Maybe.
However, this incident has been reported in the press and there is public commentary about it. In the days of yore (ie thirty years ago) none of it would have been reported; it would have been another day and nothing more would have been said. We would never have heard about it.

To my mind, the fact that we've read about this incident is a small victory for accountability. Thirty years ago it would have happened without media comment or public scrutiny. These days we hear about it, and our comments and views are taken on board by pollies, although only if they think it's politically expedient. :(

SASless
19th Jan 2014, 12:04
Ron White Texas Death Penalty - YouTube

Krystal n chips
19th Jan 2014, 12:14
Since accountability was mentioned, do excuse me for reposting this little gem regarding U.S, Justice ( Texas version ) and....accountability.

Texas teen kills four in drunken crash but gets probation after parents? wealth blamed | The Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/11/texas-teen-kills-four-in-drunken-crash-but-gets-probation-after-parents-wealth-blamed/)

Mind you, Texas does come down hard on young girls who are truant,,yessir ! took those perps of the street!

After following the discussions, and being aware that, for the cousins, the accused is always guilty, irrespective of the crime, also noticeable are the number of comments about.....the cost of keeping a prisoner alive until the judicial process is exhausted.

Nice to see your priorities so keenly displayed then

SASless
19th Jan 2014, 12:45
Do try again KC......you are so wrong on many points.

Catch up will you.....and try again.

Krystal n chips
19th Jan 2014, 12:56
" Do try again KC......you are so wrong on many points.

Catch up will you.....and try again. "

Well, since you asked, what points would these be ?

And, bearing in mind you were a former law person, and a passionate advocate of Law n Order, there would seem to be a deafening, if not entirely unexpected, silence about the link on my post.

After all, he was a good kid from a good background.....so that's all settled then.

PTT
19th Jan 2014, 13:00
Have there been many recent exonerations though? The bulk of recent overturned convictions here date from flawed investigations in the 1970-80s before DNA, CCTV, accountable coppers, and before rights/privileges such as lawyers were routinely offered to the accused. Often in those cases it turns out that there were assumptions made on flawed evidence and rampantly biassed police investigations that weren't subject to an effective process.

Recent convictions are based on much more solid evidence than those in the early 1960s, and are subject to far greater public scrutiny. Additionally, there are far more rigorous appeals processes. Wherever the jurisdiction, I think that a person convicted of murder in 2014 has been subject to much more damning evidence against them and a much fairer process than a person convicted in 1965.The link I provided gave several examples. Three of those exonerated in 2009 were convicted in the 2000's, and many more in the 90s.

How many is too many?

con-pilot
19th Jan 2014, 16:45
K&C

Since accountability was mentioned, do excuse me for reposting this little gem regarding U.S, Justice ( Texas version ) and....accountability.

The judge in the case was bought and paid for, pure and simple. There are two reasons she has announced that she will not seek reelection .

1. She is rich enough now she can afford not run to for reelection.

2. She does not have a chance in hell to be reelected, as the voters in her district are mad as hell over what she did.

The Texas Attorney General has started an investigation into this case and when or if enough evidence is found to prove her guilt in taking a bribe, she will be convicted and sent to prison. Assuming she is still in the United States.

Somthing else that shows being 'simple', is when a person condemns an entire state with a population of over 26.4 million people over the actions of one corrupt judge. As you have.

And before you look for a high horse to mount, I've read here about many British judges making incredibly stupid desicions from the Queen's Bench when it come to sentencing the guilty.

'Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.'

Wise words you should take into consideration before you post such rubbish again.

perthsaint
19th Jan 2014, 16:56
There's a world of difference between making stupid decisions and being corrupt.

con-pilot
19th Jan 2014, 17:06
There's a world of difference between making stupid decisions and being corrupt.

Oh, okay, so when British Judges make stupid decisions, it is just because they are stupid then, therefor, by your and K&C's reasoning, all British Judges are stupid. Something that I believe that Flying Lawyer would take great excepton to, rightly so. But I forget we are talking about bigotry, not reason and facts where you guys are concerned.

Or are you telling us that there has never been a corrupt judge in Great Britian? And if there has been (and there have been), does that means that the entire British Legal system is corrupt as K&C condems the Texas Legal system?

I'd be very careful on how you answer to those questions.

Very interesting on how the actions of the very few in a country, causes some here to condem entire nations and/or states.

Is this something one learns in school there, or do you guys come naturally to this bigotry?

SASless
19th Jan 2014, 17:07
KC.....Con beat me to it a bit.....and you should ask yourself why few of us respond to your posts except to remind you over and over just how wrong you are. One would think that after a while you would question just why it is you seem to get handed your hat following posting here.

Along with confronting corrupt Judges, Cops, Prosecutors, Members of Congress, and Presidents.....we have no problem confronting those who are stuck on Stupid.

In my Law Enforcement work I saw many miscarriages of justice....some where relatively minor transgressions got walloped and others where those that begged for punishment did not get what they deserved.

Welcome to Life fellow.....it is not a state of Utopia out here.


Con......nope....no corrupt Judges in the UK....nope....not at all.

Tory MP Douglas Carswell said: ‘We have a serious problem in this country with quality control when it comes to judges.’

JUDICIAL MAFIA: International Mens Organisation (http://www.intmensorg.info/judges.htm)

UK019
19th Jan 2014, 17:30
This thread has dragged up some ugly memories. One morning in 1986, a friend of my ex-father-in-law took up a cup of tea to his 17 year old daughter, and found her strangled, stabbed and sexually assaulted in her bed. She had been followed home by a 19 year old youth, who crept in through an open window and butchered her where she lay. I had met her once when she and her father came to my house not long before her murder. Happy, bouncy, pretty teenager.

I was flying that morning, and received the phone call in the crew room (no cell phone then.) Now, I am a big fellow with a fairly strong mental constitution but I was unable to drive home for a while. I am not ashamed to admit that I was physically shaking - and I was just a man on the very outer fringes of this appalling tragedy.

The vile creature who had seen fit to halt her life for his own gratification was convicted to what is absurdly called “Life” in the UK. I have no doubt that he is out now – maybe living a normal life, perhaps with his own family. How nice. The young girl’s parents, on the other hand, were sentenced by him to life – a life of mental torture, misery and shattered dreams. And apart from losing their daughter, they also lost everything else – their business, their savings - but most of all, their souls. Effectively, he ended their lives – well, normal lives anyway. Her father will never rid himself of the ghastly image of his broken and inert little girl that faced him on that morning.

Whether it is right or not to have the option of judicial killing of people like this is a debate that will rage for ever, but what is surely without argument by any right-thinking human is that to ever release back into society someone who has committed such a heinous act is grossly morally wrong – and staggeringly dangerous. In the USA you have “Life without possibility of parole.” Dead right. We have had something similar in the UK for a very few ‘lifers’, but now we have them bleating to the European Court of Human Rights, who have ruled that the UK’s “whole-life tariffs breach their human rights.” Pass me a bucket.

As far as Capital punishment is concerned and the worry about executing the innocent, I’ll refer you to the assistant hangman Syd Dernley. He said that in the 22 year period from the abolition of the death penalty in the UK, there were doubts about 3 executions (and DNA has now proved that one of those 3 was guilty,) but that in that period 37 people were killed by men who had killed before and been released. As he said “Now which should be the area of greatest concern?”

Sorry for the long post – but I thought I’d give just a hint of the sheer awfulness of the effect of this crime from someone who was only marginally involved – and yet can still be affected by it 28 years later.

perthsaint
19th Jan 2014, 17:39
Con-pilot,

If there is evidence of corruption within the UK judiciary no doubt you will be able to provide us with verifiable examples of such.

con-pilot
19th Jan 2014, 18:20
If there is evidence of corruption within the UK judiciary no doubt you will be able to provide us with verifiable examples of such.

http://www.intmensorg.info/judges.htm

and judges honeypot and propped up by them stealing men's assets in divorce. Legal Aid board behind the massive fraud and corruption that leads to men losing their homes and assets.

Two judges were yesterday found guilty of misappropriating more than £1.5million of public money.

Denis McKay and Stuart Turner systematically misused the legal aid money sent to their law firm, the Solicitors Regulation Authority said. It ordered the two men to be struck off the roll of solicitors and the Legal Aid Agency has reported their behaviour to the City of London police. However the pair continue to hold office as judges and, three years after their misuse of money was first detected, disciplinary proceedings are still going on and no criminal charges have been brought. The money, said to total more than £1.5million, is still missing.

My, my, you are an innocent, are you not.

Or is it you just don't get out much. :rolleyes:

Or have you forgotten that you are defending a legal system that used to hang children for stealing a loaf of bread. Kind of brings a tear to your eye that such stuanch British legal traditions are gone now, what.


Oh, and whatever you do, don't, repeat don't, Google this part of your post; "corruption within the UK judiciary". You will not be happy with what you find.

Just sayin'.

perthsaint
19th Jan 2014, 18:42
Interesting article (and website), con-pilot, thanks.

Can you point out to me where it proves the men acted corruptly while judging cases, please?

Actually, we didn't hang children for stealing bread. They had a much worse fate - transportation to the Carolinas:E

You, of course, have a system which allows children to have firearms. No potential for tragedy there, is there? :rolleyes:

con-pilot
19th Jan 2014, 18:52
They had a much worse fate - transportation to the Carolinas

Hell, it could have been worse than that, they could have been sent to Oklahoma. But on second thought, if they ended up being really good at playing American University football, may have worked out in the end. :p


You, of course, have a system which allows children to have firearms. No potential for tragedy there, is there?

Fact one, it is illegal for children to have, own or possess* guns, please do a little research before you post such clap.

Fact two, there are about a hundred threads currently running or have run about guns and the US, please take this there, not here. :=


* Without adult supervision.

Romeo Oscar Golf
19th Jan 2014, 19:55
Con and SAS...hit the ignore list...it works a treat and probably annoys the hell out of the ignored. :ok:
I'm a firm believer in the death penalty, but accept that others hold a different view. Their choice.

PTT
19th Jan 2014, 20:01
Ah yes, the ignore list: last refuge of the lost argument...

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll317/evil_enemy/lolcats-funny-picture-lalalalala.jpg

As far as Capital punishment is concerned and the worry about executing the innocent, I’ll refer you to the assistant hangman Syd Dernley. He said that in the 22 year period from the abolition of the death penalty in the UK, there were doubts about 3 executions (and DNA has now proved that one of those 3 was guilty,) but that in that period 37 people were killed by men who had killed before and been released. As he said “Now which should be the area of greatest concern?”That's not an argument for capital punishment per se, but it potentially is one for whole life tariffs.

Capetonian
19th Jan 2014, 20:06
The ignore list is not the 'last resort of the lost argument'. It saves wasting time reading pointless drivel and personal attacks from people (two at present although one has been banned) who don't put forward any argument at all, but simply a sneering, pompous, uninformed and condescending attack on anyone who doesn't agree with the other view. The postings of the ignored remain visible on the morning summary of updates.

Romeo Oscar Golf
19th Jan 2014, 20:17
What a sad comment PTT. Capes has it right. Bye Bye :zzz:

con-pilot
19th Jan 2014, 20:20
Con and SAS...hit the ignore list

Naw, I don't put people on the ignore list, makes them feel too important or special. I just ignore them instead, but still make comments about what they write when others post about them. I don't post to them, just about them.

That really annoys them. :p

If they get too personal or insulting, well that is what we have moderators for. But I'm a grown adult and can handle those types myself.

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jan 2014, 20:58
Ah yes, the ignore list: last refuge of the lost argument...
It's violence (which one can take to include capital punishment) that is "the last refuge of the incompetent".

radeng
19th Jan 2014, 21:15
My problem is not hanging them in case we get it wrong - which it's cheaper not to do. It's in letting them out. Especially if they do it again - they should then NEVER be let out again except in a coffin for immediate cremation - just in case they are attempting to escape.

To my mind, too many UK prison sentences are far too short to protect the public, and repeat offenders should go away for a VERY LONG time - just like the US do. If they're in jail, they ain't offending the public outside.....

SASless
19th Jan 2014, 21:21
Four folks currently carrying on are safely lodged in my Peanut Gallery.

When it devolves to name calling, personal attacks, and just plain being rude and argumentative for the sake of being argumentative....."Whoosh!".....off they go.

421dog
19th Jan 2014, 21:30
I'm not going to wade through this entire thread, so I apologize for any redundancy, but I feel the need to point out that this "cocktail" is certain to do two things:
1) absolutely not cause the condemned any pain
2) be uncomfortable to watch because there is not a paralytic involved to mask agonal respirations which accompany the hypercapnoea and subsequent hypoxia occasioned by a narcotic/ benzodiazepine overdose.

The idea that this guy in any way experienced "air hunger" is idiotic.

That all being said, I object as a physician to the concept of making executions clinical. There are plenty of quick and only slightly messy ways to kill things that need killing.

westhawk
19th Jan 2014, 21:52
Whether the condemned experiences a moment of pain or discomfort at the moment of execution is less important to me than whether they experience a moment of clarity and truth. When they realize that the bill for their abject disregard for the lives and rights they have taken from others has finally come due and there's no more hope of reprieve, that's when justice has been served. Have a nice trip!

obgraham
19th Jan 2014, 21:57
Well 421dog, I tried to make that point about the drugs back just after post #1. Involuntary movements are the rule, not the exception. Anyone care to ask how many times I had to pause in surgery until the "bucking" stopped?

However, as expected, the thread soon degenerated into the nasty side of pro or con capital punishment, even to the point of issuing death threats.

rh200
19th Jan 2014, 23:33
That's not an argument for capital punishment per se, but it potentially is one for whole life tariffs.

Here's one for you, as you have already accepted, we are after all just a mechanism, with no real free will, just a biological machine. If the said machine is 100% guilty, with no doubt what so ever, and is never going to be released, why keep said machine around using up resources?

Seems like a very unscientific approach.

421dog
20th Jan 2014, 00:47
Is Britain a better place in the post-1950s? (After Pierrepont and gun control and a bunch of mandated be nice to each other laws?). I don't know. I don't have the perspective, but I feel that the rule of law without a bunch of dilly dallying makes for a nicer place to live. I know that Texas is a nicer place than Delaware, for example.

Matari
20th Jan 2014, 01:19
I love these "Americans are so this and that" threads. Such nonsense from people who think they know the US, based on headlines, Bruce Willis movies and a couple trips to Vegas and Orlando. These people know best?

It is a big place, with fifty states and fifty jurisdictions. Some states allow the death penalty, others don't. The supreme court weighed in years ago, and allowed states to decide themselves. It's what we have, and people are free to move, debate, influence politicians and change laws.

These debates are held in English language, on the internet, in the bright sunshine of a transparent country. News media from around the world cover us, which for some reason is more interesting to a British audience than Putin clawing back the Ukraine.

In states where the death penalty is allowed, there is vocal and strong opposition. Protest groups hold candlelight vigils outside prisons where the death penalty is carried out. DNA testing is providing a real check on excessive prosecutions. Rulings are challenged, sentences overturned. None of this is easy, or taken lightly outside of comedy clubs.

Funny, though, what you hear from Europeans in the privacy of their own homes. Usually just takes a few drinks. Guards are let down, and true feelings come out. I get the sense that they are fed up with their criminal justice systems, and want change. But they have no choice in the matter, which leads to the pious indignation we see here.

meadowrun
20th Jan 2014, 02:31
There are plenty of quick and only slightly messy ways to kill things that need killing.

Don't quite get the concept of adding something to execute someone. Just remove something instead. In this kerffuffle over administering drugs that may or may not even be available, try opening an artery and draining until all gone. Convict goes to sleep and you can hide the bucket behind the table leg to restrict the messy side for the queasy.

rh200
20th Jan 2014, 03:14
Don't quite get the concept of adding something to execute someone

Adding a few ounces of lead weights seems to work okay.

Krystal n chips
20th Jan 2014, 03:51
con / SAS....

This may prove difficult.

At which point did I refer to the judge in the Texas case as being corrupt?.

I didn't, but you did.

I raised the issue of the case not simply because of the leniency of the sentence, but also the lack of condemnation on here by those who are selective it seems when it comes to whom the offender is, and their social background.

Neither have I ever mentioned or implied corruption is prevalent within the UK Judiciary. Nobody would deny that, over the years, there have been some eccentric and, at times, over lenient sentences passed, but, and let me make this abundantly clear, I have never levelled the accusation of corruption within the UK Judiciary on and in any post on JB..... and if you can prove otherwise, please attempt to do so.

Without recourse to a complete fallacy which is the only option you have in this respect.

Ah yes, the State of Texas. Famed for executing the residents and in competion it would seem with Florida for being top of the league.

Is there an annual Cup awarded for this achievement at all ?

And of course, shackling young girls for being truant :ugh: shows an equally incomprehensible approach to societal development.

"Or have you forgotten that you are defending a legal system that used to hang children for stealing a loaf of bread. Kind of brings a tear to your eye that such stuanch British legal traditions are gone now, what.

That's quite true, we did indeed hang just about all ages for petty and trivial crimes. We have, however, progressed considerably from those days.

Now, about the penchant, or should that be legacy from the Founding Fathers given from whence they came, of the U.S jurisdiction for executing people who are severely mentally impaired ?

500N
20th Jan 2014, 03:56
"Now, about the penchant, or should that be legacy from the Founding Fathers given from whence they came, of the U.S jurisdiction for executing people who are severely mentally impaired."

Some might say killing two birds with one stone.

meadowrun
20th Jan 2014, 05:47
It might also be argued that all persons who commit first degree murder (and several other types of crimes) are, by definition, severely mentally impaired.

PTT
20th Jan 2014, 06:32
Here's one for you, as you have already accepted, we are after all just a mechanism, with no real free will, just a biological machine. If the said machine is 100% guilty, with no doubt what so ever, and is never going to be released, why keep said machine around using up resources?

Seems like a very unscientific approach.I thought you said you were a scientist somewhere? Seems odd that such a person might get confused between "scientific method" and "compassionless efficiency," which is more of a Hollywood definition of science.
Can we ever be 100% certain? Even DNA tests are subject to human error.

rh200
20th Jan 2014, 08:16
Seems odd that such a person might get confused between "scientific method" and "compassionless efficiency," which is more of a Hollywood definition of science.

Compassion, where was the compassion for the pommy soldier butchered in the street. And what would one really want to show compassion to them for.

Sorry PTT no confusion here, compassion has its places and the law has enough outs in it to provide compassion to those who deserve it.

[QUOTE][Can we ever be 100% certain? Even DNA tests are subject to human error. /QUOTE]

See the above for an example of proof, yes DNA is not 100%, but I don't take that as the burden by itself.

In the case of the above two scum bags, their could be a reason to not knock them off (think martyr), though I would be inclined too, just to end it.

PTT
20th Jan 2014, 09:31
Compassion, where was the compassion for the pommy soldier butchered in the street. And what would one really want to show compassion to them for.Don't shift your position so blatantly. You were arguing that killing people who 100% did the crime was "scientific". It's not, it's merely coldly efficient.
See the above for an example of proof, yes DNA is not 100%, but I don't take that as the burden by itself."The above" what? Are you talking about 100% certain of the Rigby killers being guilty? If so then I'm likely as close to 100% as I am going to get (given that I wasn't there, and am reliant on testimony and video, all of which can be faked - not suggesting it is, but it can be). If ever I was to suggest the death penalty then it would be for at least this standard of evidence. It would be self-defeating in this case, as you say.

rh200
20th Jan 2014, 11:05
You were arguing that killing people who 100% did the crime was "scientific". It's not, it's merely coldly efficient.

You forgot the bit about 100% did it and was going to be locked away for life, real life.

PTT
20th Jan 2014, 13:42
No, I pointed out that there is no such thing as 100%. Life sentences can be rescinded and at least partially compensated, death sentences cannot.

SASless
20th Jan 2014, 14:16
KC.....it is you that is being difficult.

You have been told that before....in other threads....by other posters.



con / SAS....

This may prove difficult.

At which point did I refer to the judge in the Texas case as being corrupt?.

I didn't, but you did.

I raised the issue of the case not simply because of the leniency of the sentence, but also the lack of condemnation on here by those who are selective it seems when it comes to whom the offender is, and their social background.

Neither have I ever mentioned or implied corruption is prevalent within the UK Judiciary. Nobody would deny that, over the years, there have been some eccentric and, at times, over lenient sentences passed, but, and let me make this abundantly clear, I have never levelled the accusation of corruption within the UK Judiciary on and in any post on JB..... and if you can prove otherwise, please attempt to do so.

Without recourse to a complete fallacy which is the only option you have in this respect.

Ah yes, the State of Texas. Famed for executing the residents and in competion it would seem with Florida for being top of the league.

Is there an annual Cup awarded for this achievement at all ?

And of course, shackling young girls for being truant :ugh: shows an equally incomprehensible approach to societal development.

"Or have you forgotten that you are defending a legal system that used to hang children for stealing a loaf of bread. Kind of brings a tear to your eye that such stuanch British legal traditions are gone now, what.

That's quite true, we did indeed hang just about all ages for petty and trivial crimes. We have, however, progressed considerably from those days.

Now, about the penchant, or should that be legacy from the Founding Fathers given from whence they came, of the U.S jurisdiction for executing people who are severely mentally impaired ?

Krystal n chips
20th Jan 2014, 17:23
" KC.....it is you that is being difficult.

You have been told that before....in other threads....by other posters

I was, until now, unaware that, as a result of your dining in rather exalted company, this has entitled you to presume to think you can lecture me as to how I should think and to have views that, thankfully, contradict your own.

"Being difficult" as you put it has been a feature of my life for a very long time

"Difficult" in the sense that I do not readily accept everything I am told, read or hear in life per se, ask questions which invariably I am not supposed to ask to justify the question in the first place and upsetting the ego's of those who feel they cannot be challenged because of their rank or perceived social status.

The fact that you clearly feel you have the impunity to lecture me therefore suggests that, whatever personal traits others may find appealing in you, they are not readily obvious to those of us who, in your opinion, have the temerity not to conform to your Pavlovian thinking.

brickhistory
20th Jan 2014, 20:22
Hmmm, so for you to be 'difficult' is because you are independent-minded and choose for yourself what to think and believe?

Yet you seemingly don't want us Americans to have that same consideration.

Wonder what that's called?



And I would happily have donated a couple of the 200 9mm rounds I dispatched about an hour ago to spare the State of Ohio any more exotic lethal injection cocktail experiments.

Those Germans do make fine pistols. And I get to choose if I want such. And that has made all the difference.

Personal choice/freedom to do as I wish.

Not how you wish it.

See how simple that is to explain?
Surely even you can understand that?

SASless
20th Jan 2014, 20:24
Brick,

I fear you would have better luck teaching a fish to yodel than get KC to grasp such simple concepts as you lay out for him.

Capetonian
20th Jan 2014, 20:45
I fear you would have better luck teaching a fish to yodel than get KC to grasp such simple concepts as you lay out for him.Next time I visit the aquarium I won't be too surprised to hear fish yodelling. There is a greater likelihood of that than of KnC responding coherently and civilly to those who dare to oppose his views, if they can be called that.

rh200
20th Jan 2014, 23:30
No, I pointed out that there is no such thing as 100%.

Yes technically you are correct, but there is a point where no one is going to split hairs. I guess in the case of the two fine up standing gentlemen who butchered the soldier, the people on the scene and video might disagree with you.

Life sentences can be rescinded and at least partially compensated, death sentences cannot.

Very true, though from the morals of todays stand point, if, and the fact that they actually did the crime, I would be extremely worried if our society degraded to such a point that they could ever have it rescinded.

The most I could think of in pommystans case, would be that they get enough immigrants in a short time span to change its laws and hence be thought of as hero's to the new dominate population.

Hence have their sentences, rescinded.

Krystal n chips
21st Jan 2014, 02:21
Brick,

" Hmmm, so for you to be 'difficult' is because you are independent-minded and choose for yourself what to think and believe?

Yet you seemingly don't want us Americans to have that same consideration.

Wonder what that's called?"

From my perspective, I would call it coercive persuation and indoctrination.

Criticism is unwelcome to the proponents therefore and thus generates the reactions of the bully when challenged.

brickhistory
21st Jan 2014, 02:31
Me being such a simpleton, I thought it was simply hypocrisy.

PTT
21st Jan 2014, 06:41
Very trueGood. So, given that we can't be 100% and that death sentences cannot be rescinded, would you bet your life on each death sentence carried out? If any one sentence is proven to be wrong then you, personally, will also die. Seem reasonable? Because it's ultimately a gamble with someone's life.

RatherBeFlying
21st Jan 2014, 07:05
Yep, there's some scum that deserve capital punishment, but most methods are just too quick and the perp gets to enjoy sympathy as his execution approaches.

The best capital sentence is sloooooow. Not too long ago in Canada, Clifford Olson who confessed to the murder of ten children succumbed to cancer decades after his conviction. There's a bunch more who will never get out, even though there is the possibility of parole after 25 years.

My problem with executions is that there's just about as many folks who have been exonerated up here, sometimes after decades, as slimeballs who will never see the outside of jail.

parabellum
21st Jan 2014, 21:18
Not sure if it is still the case but in Japan, once the final appeal has been refused, the condemned is not given an execution date and the guards may come for you at any time day or night. The family are then notified that the sentence has been carried out.


(Having just typed that, there is a small nagging in the back of my head that someone who lives and works in Japan has stated, here on PPRuNe, that the system has now changed to something a little less dramatic?).


Has Japan executed that rather large leader of the gang that put Sarin gas in the sub-way yet?