GSS contract with BA terminated

[TopBunk]

Have just read elsewhere that BA are terminating their contract with GSS for the 3 B748 aircraft with effect from end March. The aircraft will return to Atlas.

[Airclues]

BALPA | GSS PILOTS FEAR LOSS OF BRITISH JOBS & EXPORTS AFTER IAG ENDS UK CARGO FLIGHT CONTRACT (http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/News/GSS-PILOTS-FEAR-LOSS-OF-BRITISH-JOBS-AND-EXPORTS.aspx)

[Ct.Yankee]

Looks like the three Dash 8's are coming home to Atlas Air?


Business Wire

PURCHASE, N.Y.--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. (Nasdaq:AAWW), a leading global provider of outsourced aircraft and aviation operating solutions, today said that it intends to pursue new ACMI (aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance) placement opportunities for three 747-8 Freighter aircraft currently operated for British Airways plc by Atlas Air Worldwides 49%-owned UK subsidiary, Global Supply Systems Limited (GSS).

The action follows notice from British Airways, a unit of International Consolidated Airlines Group, S.A., regarding British Airways strategic decision to exit dedicated cargo-freighter service and to return the aircraft to GSS in April 2014 pursuant to the terms of the existing ACMI agreement between the parties.

Effective with the termination of the agreement, the three 747-8Fs will be redelivered to the company by GSS. Through GSS, the company also will receive contractual early termination fees from British Airways.

We deeply appreciate our long relationship with British Airways and its cargo affiliate, IAG Cargo, said William J. Flynn, President and Chief Executive Officer, Atlas Air Worldwide (AAWW). We are very proud to have served them over the past 18 years, including the last 12 years through GSS.

We are also focused on the continued development of our business. We are an innovative provider of outsourced aircraft and aviation operating solutions to the global aviation industry. And we will deploy these freighters in profitable revenue operations once redelivered to us, taking advantage of their superior fuel efficiency, range, capacity and loading capabilities. We believe these qualities create a compelling value proposition for our customers.

About Atlas Air Worldwide:

Atlas Air Worldwide is the parent company of Atlas Air, Inc. (Atlas) and Titan Aviation Leasing (Titan), and is the majority shareholder of Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc. (Polar). Atlas Air Worldwide also maintains a 49% interest in Global Supply Systems Limited (GSS). Through Atlas and Polar, Atlas Air Worldwide operates the worlds largest fleet of Boeing 747 freighter aircraft.

Atlas, Titan and Polar offer a range of outsourced aircraft and aviation operating services that include ACMI service in which customers receive an aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance on a long-term basis; CMI service, for customers that provide their own aircraft; express network and scheduled air cargo service; military cargo and passenger charters; commercial cargo and passenger charters; and dry leasing of aircraft and engines.

Atlas Air Worldwides press releases, SEC (SCUR) filings and other information can be accessed through the Companys home

[Burnie5204]

So is this an end to BA World Cargo entirely or just their B748F operation?

[ETOPS]

So is this an end to BA World Cargo entirely or just their B748F operation?

BA World Cargo and Iberia Cargo were joined together in 2011 to form IAG Cargo. Much of their business is "underfloor" with the constituent airlines but the STN based 748 operation was a significant part.

No doubt a sharp accountant reckoned it would be cheaper to outsource again.........

[Flightmech]

Sad news. Most of the ground staff are a great bunch. I hope they find employment elsewhere very soon

[Cliff Secord]

What awful news. I had the great pleasure of meeting some folk at GSS once and thought what a nice company and people they were. My thoughts are with all the staff. I like everyone here hope for some last minute good news.

Will we have any independent airlines left in the UK at this rate? What a sad state the British airline industry is in. It is very sad.

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

As a follow up to this, Qatar Cargo has signed on to operate 5 B777F a week from London to Hong Kong on behalf of IAG

Qatar to operate freighters on behalf of IAG Cargo | Air Cargo World (http://www.aircargoworld.com/Air-Cargo-World-News/2014/01/qatar-operate-freighters-behalf-iag-cargo/6082)

[newscaster]

What happens to GSS now?

[Burnie5204]

That is a shame. It was always nice to see the BA 748s when they occasionally came in. They always looked much cleaner, more modern and more impressive than the usual 744s we see. Would have been nice to see them on the FIA contract.

Plus it was nice to see BRITISH AIRWAYS down the side of an aircraft, even if it was on a cargo 747, it made a change from the normal and between that and the chartered BA Shuttle to FAO in the summer you could almost imagine what the place would look like with some full service and longhaul operating.

[CAO]

So now you'll see something new...a Qatari 777F :)

[Cliff Secord]

Can't wait

[Iver]

Very unfortunate for all involved. I imagine the crews will be well qualified for several opportunities in the Gulf (maybe flying QR 777Fs) or with Virgin on the 400 if they are still hiring. I would expect experience flying the 800F should be valued. On a side note, I have always heard GSS pilots were under-paid. Perhaps it is time to cash-in on that experience...

Good luck to all!

[MoJo WoJo]

"Good News" for Atlas Air


Yah, they looked that good because they ARE OWNED by AAWW!

The GSS op was 49% Atlas Air, 51% British Air (Operational Control requirement).

There should be understanding here as that, AAWW gained significant "Foreign Earned US Tax Credits with the British operation! (Corp Tax code within US under review and vy likely to change.)

With conclusion of the flying club at GSS, AAWW will better use the ACs as the EU econ improves and continuing expansion of the US economy.

The 3 GSS 748 assignments was a good equipment transitory plan [top line, bottom line, and as a lender financing tool (200>400>8)] for the AAWW corp.

Risk here is depending upon controlled ongoing expansionary monetary policies and restrained inflation within CH and EU.

Keep in mind: although the 748 has 4 engs (JET A prices are low near term and going lower) it is A VERY ADAPTIVE AC for far more biz models.

The B777F DOES NOT accommodate outsized loads (No Nose Loading). Though it is good for long thin fixed routes, it is not that adaptive.

Good olde UPS could have used all three of these AAWW ACs under contract for this past "Amazon Chaos" Christmas!

It cost UPS dearly with the lack of additional seasonal assigned lift.

Good luck to the BA pilots who worked at GSS and formerly retired BA age 55. The party is over, I guess. Welcome to the real world! The world of an "aged", retired, unemployed old pilots!

Key to all this: be ADAPTIVE, as the mainline crew at Atlas Air have been.

"Cheers!",
MoJo

[no sponsor]

A lot of very experienced, very talented, good guys. I hope you all find something soon.

[zeddb]

Mojo,

Gloating over the misfortune of others is considered very bad form and has a nasty habit of rebounding and smacking you in the face.

May I respectfully suggest that you check your facts before going into print and confirming what others think of your intellectual status.

GSS is not/was not a "flying club"

GSS employed it's own pilots, who will be on the scrap heap. A small number of BA pilots were seconded to the operation. They have nice jobs and careers to go back to so I would save your "sympathy" for those that deserve it.

Just saying.

[Airclues]

I spent five happy years with GSS. They are a great bunch of people who have worked hard to provide an excellent service to BA. I wish them all well for the future.

[742]

MoJo WoJo --


That post was in very bad form, especially if you are actually an Atlas employee. And your "understandings" sound like they came from listening to too much bar talk.


My sense is that the majority of people at Atlas understand that this is not good news for any of us. And, since the vast majority of us are not psychopaths, there is no joy in the pain that the GSS employees are going through.


I wish them the best, and hope that they land on their feet.

[zeddb]

Will BALPA insist on BA F/O's being able to bid for Qatar 777F commands as they did with GSS (under the BA SCOPE agreement)?

One would hope that BALPA had more pressing priorities with the impending job losses amongst GSS employees than the continued rights of BA pilots to help themselves to other people's commands.

Should they insist on enforcing the scope clause, maybe those wishing to avail themselves of such an opportunity would consider the ongoing popularity of traumatic amputation in that part of the world.

That said, the BA guys I had the pleasure to sit next to over the last few years were gentlemen to a fault (well, most of them) and I hope they enjoy their return to the fold. Their good fortune was exactly that and who amongst us wouldn't have done the same, given the chance. Sayonara chaps, spare a thought for those of us consigned to the dustbin on your way onwards and upwards.

[Icelanta]

For what it is worth...

Norwegian is looking for long Haul pilots, both FO, cruise captain and Captain.
Type rating on B787 is not required.

Qatar Airways is taking Captains and FO on B777

Korean Air is taking FO and Captains on B744

China has good options with bases in Europe and the USA.

Let us hope that the EU will finally ban the Cabotage done by Fedex and UPS very soon, as there are several courtcases and investigations running against it. ( and yes, it IS cabotage as they operate within one economic union, which is the basis of cabotage, and not political union)

[Flightmech]

The FedEx and UPS situation won't change. It's perfectly legal. Atlas will also struggle to find regular income from 3 -8F's too. I'm also curious how Qatar will be able to carry BAWC freight bearing in mind that's why GSS had to be formed in the first place?

[Iver]

Great point Icelanta. I forgot about Norwegian Long Haul 787 opening for the GSS crews. Perhaps closer to home if a 787 LGW pilot base is established at some point. The current NLH basing policy is still confusing.

Good luck to all GSS crews. Despite the low pay, I imagine the flying itself was interesting.

[Intruder]

Let us hope that the EU will finally ban the Cabotage done by Fedex and UPS very soon, as there are several courtcases and investigations running against it. ( and yes, it IS cabotage as they operate within one economic union, which is the basis of cabotage, and not political union)
I cannot find ANY definition of cabotage that supports your contention. In fact, I found more than one discussion/definition which addresses the EU, and they all address operations within a single member state:

http://www.aerolegalservices.com/Articles/Cabotage-CorporateAircraft.shtml:
European Union. Cabotage regulations in the European Union are more complex than in Canada. The difficulty results from the European Union’s definition of commercial transportation. In the U.S., the U.S. Customs service defines commercial transportation as transportation “for compensation or hire”. However, the European Union defines “commercial use” as “the use of means of transportation for the transport of persons or of goods for remuneration or in the framework of the economic activity of an enterprise”.

Unfortunately, the European Union definition means that a U.S. registered corporate aircraft operating within the European Union for corporate or other business purposes can be considered to be engaging in commercial use or transportation. As a result, if a corporate aircraft flies into a European Union country, picks up a citizen of that country and then travels on to another destination within that country, it is likely that the second flight would be in violation of the European Union cabotage regulations.

http://www.law-pedia.com/cabotage.htm:
Definition of cabotage
n. Transport services provided in one member state of the EU by a carrier of another state. Article 71 (formerly 75) of the Treaty of Rome provides that the Council of the European Union may lay down proposals in relation to the conditions under which nonresident carriers may operate transport services within a member state.

C 21/2 Official Journal of the European Union (road haulage, but identical concept):
Based on Article 71(1)(b) of the EC Treaty, the Community Regulations (2) give the following definition:
Any non-resident carrier who is a holder of the Community authorisation is entitled to operate, on a temporary basis and without quantitative restrictions, national road haulage services in another Member State, without having a registered office or other establishment in that State.

Also, if it is of such concern to the EU, why hasn't a EU company simply opened up shop and offered the services? Surely all those EU airlines and companies would jump over to another EU company... :confused:

[Flightmech]

What intruder said.....

[JB007]

Also the "airline that can't be named" in AUH is doing massive expansion in 2014! Approx 500 pilots required I heard! It's all on their website!

[PFR]

Such sad news - all the best for the future for such a great team of people.
PFR.

[Dihaz]

Deal with Qatar will work very easily around the EU/UK rules.

Qatar will commence a B777F schedule to the UK and BAWC/IAGC will buy block space on these flights. In a way, DOH will be BAWC/IAGC's cargo hub...!

Wouldn't be surprised if QR order -8s now...!

On a side note are these QR freighters going to fly into STN?

[bvcu]

With Qatar joining 'one world alliance' it was a bit of a no brainer really with them investing in a cargo division with 777F and A330F . Think with just a change to 777F for HKG the fuel savings alone is a no-brainer.Probably as hig a proportion of UK jobs flying for them ! Havent seen any mention of the rest of the jobs going yet , didnt they have a maintrol etc at STN ?

[Flightmech]

While it's important to keep a customer happy part of the blame has to be with GSS Management for bowing down to BAWC over the years. Enquiries from other carriers had been made to fly their freight during unused maintenance slots in HKG but as soon as "permission" was sought from BAWC they would suddenly come up with a HKG-MAA-HKG carrying a packet of tissues one way and an empty ferry the other! Relationships could have been built with other potential customers over the years but sticking with one has finally bit them in the a**e.

[Best foot forward]

Surely BA would be able to absorb the crew from GSS. There must be a recruitment need in the next 6 months, rumour a while back had a lot of retirements pending this year at BA. They have a trained and known commodity available. Why waste it.

Good luck to all involved it is horrible position to be in, to work hard for an employer just to be ditched at the stroke of bean counters pen.

[cockygashandlazy]

For those that are familiar with GSS the gravity of this announcement is clear. However, I will make it clear for the others. GSS was established to fly this contract. It is their only contract. This story is being sold as a contract cancellation and GSS are looking for more work. I find it very hard to believe they will succeed in that endeavour before the end of April. This news is potentially the end of GSS and the end of employment for the entire workforce.

There is the hope of the mid-contract cancellation payment sustaining a GSS skeleton crew after the contract ends with the hope of finding more work. However, in a rented office with rented computers and desks, I can only be a realist.

In regards to Qatar; as far as I understand IAG cargo is merely buying space on the existing Qatar route network, albeit with Qatar taking the hit on adding extra rotations to suit IAG, therefore the entire contact has been cancelled and is not continuing. This means no hope of TUPE for the staff (small hope or consolation that it was anyway).

Good luck everyone.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

If Qatar were to order -8......why not just take the GSS ones from Atlas ?

[Flightmech]

Why order the -8 when you have the 777? Although I guess BAWC will have to lose some of the oil drilling freight that used to move between IAH and DMM without a nose loading option.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

And maybe some of the cars and military hardware too

[Tay Cough]

Will BALPA insist on BA F/O's being able to bid for Qatar 777F commands as they did with GSS (under the BA SCOPE agreement)?

One would hope that BALPA had more pressing priorities with the impending job losses amongst GSS employees than the continued rights of BA pilots to help themselves to other people's commands.

No. Qatar Airways is a stand alone company and IAG are buying capacity on their freighters.

GSS only ever existed to operate BAWC services and was only formed as a UK subsidiary of Atlas when it was pointed out by the CAA that it was illegal for an N-reg company to carry out UK based work. I think BALPA were quite concerned about US pilots helping themselves to other people's commands. :oh:

My thoughts are with the GSS employees at what must be a very difficult time.

[Holer Moler]

My thoughts are also with the GSS Pilots, I wish you all the best in securing future employment.

[mark one eyeball]

Piggy in the middle company always going nowhere

[MoJo WoJo]

You should look very closely to what I have posted.


I HAVE been there and done that.


My comment is truth.


PERHAPS I should also give sympathy to the AACS operation?


I do not believe you have any skin in the game nor ever will.


Step back from your ludicrous commentary and save others from a sensible career development in aviation or otherwise.


Good luck commentator. (Experienced Professional Pilot?)


I am a retired and have spent 37 years in the system that I post so why do you not listen closely for yourself and the benefit of others? Very very narrow minded.


My 747 (SP,100,200,300, 400, -8) exp alone is greater than 20,000 hrs.


Sympathy? Think about it?


Maybe I should have sympathy for the AACS pilots. Do you know anything about that?


Do you anything about Atlas founder Chowdery words: "This is the job you have chosen."? If no,t please STEP BACK and save the truly career minded from your BS!


My sympathies to you!


You want to help your peers than you should look very very closely to my posts!


CHEERS! Bloke!


Oh, and in any case, ANY aviation job is membership in a FLYING CLUB!


MINE WAS!

[mole man]

Good luck to all the Loadmasters if they are also looking for work

Mole Man:ok:

[A340Yumyum]

Mojo.

You are a tw@t.

[Cliff Secord]

That's not very pleasant Mojo. Please take your emotional outbursts elsewhere. We're supposed to be professionals.

[Fr8Dog]

That's not very pleasant Mojo. Please take your emotional outbursts elsewhere. We're supposed to be professionals.

Don't let him get you to drop down to his level. He was a twit when he worked here! An arrogant obnoxious self centered p***k! Luck had it that he never made the left seat here!!!

I offered to buy every pilot in the world a beer the day he turned 65!

[zeddb]

A340

Mojo.

You are a [email protected]! (no pun intended)


Fr8Dog has provided the necessary background and we can judge any future "contributions" from this unpleasant individual in the light of that knowledge.

Do they have a volcano in Tuvalu? Maybe the locals could drop him in to appease the gods.

There's always one.:mad:

[Flightmech]

Lol. 20000 hrs + on the 747 at Atlas and still never made the left seat?

[Fr8Dog]

Flightmech

Lol. 20000 hrs + on the 747 at Atlas and still never made the left seat?

In the idiots defense, he did not make the upgrade here because of seniority.
I do believe he was a Captain at Kalitta, what a joy he must have been to work with. I imagine he was a real tyrant! And I also think he meant 20k + in all types flown.

FR8

[Narrow Runway]

I think we should be careful pigeonholing MoJoWoJo as a twit.

Quite clearly he isn't one.

He is in fact a massive c*nt.

[noblues]

My deepest sympathies to all the GSS workforce, I had the pleasure of flying for them for 4 years and was without doubt the best bunch of people I have ever worked with, both flying and office staff.

A great bunch of people and very well run and managed professional operation.

I don't think anyone saw this coming mid contract with BA, and just goes to show how much accountants run this game for BA Cargo to break the contract and jump ship to Qatar.

I wish all at GSS every success in securing future employment.

[Cliff Secord]

Atlas remains bullish after IAG shock, but GSS looks vulnerable in a tough market - The Loadstar (http://theloadstar.co.uk/atlas-gss/)

[Popgun]

Best wishes to all the GSS crew and staff looking for alternative employment.

PG

[A340Yumyum]

He is in fact a massive c*nt.


Pants well and truly p1ssed!

:D:D:D

[ElectricWhale]

Terribly bad news for the GSS pilots.

If it is any help, all of the US majors are hiring as is Atlas (for whom the 747-8 time would be a tremendous asset to your CV). I understand there would be a license conversion issue but the process of going from an EASA license to an FAA license is quite a bit easier than going the other way. Maybe these links would be of some help.

FAR Part 61 Sec. 61.153 effective as of 07/15/2013 (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/61.153)

Airmen Certification - Verify the Authenticity of a Foreign License, Rating, or Medical Certification (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/foreign_license_verification/)

ATP Flight School: Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Written & Certificate (http://www.atpflightschool.com/programs/certificates/atp/atp_and_written.html)

In any case, good luck with the upset recovery. Hopefully the hiring surge will help in some way.

EW

[Kep Ten Jim]

Nice thought, but just in case you didn't know: if a foreigner wants to live and work in the US, he needs a green card

[onehotflyer]

Agreed Mojo is a total ass. Obviously bitter about something. Ex captain on Kalita ohhh wow. Got his facts wrong also. GSS is not 51% BA.
SICK, GSS pay is probably half that of easy jet because we fly half as much. I did 350 hours last year. I don't think the salary is bad. Getting paid to fly nice planes to not bad places, with a great bunch of guys. Sure the BA secondee thing sucks but thats the deal. If BALPA wasn't so far up BAs ass then maybe they would have done something to rectify that.
GSS is/was the best kept secret in the industry.
All the best to everyone there.

[onehotflyer]

[With conclusion of the flying club at GSS, AAWW will better use the ACs as the EU econ improves and continuing expansion of the US economy.]

Mojo how many hours a day do Atlas planes fly? I think GSS averages around about 15 hours a day so I seriously doubt AAWW will better use the AC.
Haha 20000 hrs but still you know nothing.

[DCBOE]

Enough of the bitching and moaning,
I was going to say welcome to the world of the Flight Engineer, but the difference is, with a -8 on your licence, you can all walk in to Korean, their desperate, they will take just about anybody, and all you lot have to do is change car park!:ugh:

[S44]

Half the pay of easyjet?..... £114000 gross last year in the left seat at GSS for 400 hours... I really can't wait to leave here and get a 'real' airline job?!... As mentioned earlier.... Best kept secret in aviation... A real pity it is coming to an end.....

[zeddb]

We cannot just walk in to Korean as you so blithely say, the maximum age limit is 45. The age limit is 50 in China and the Middle East and believe me, I've tried, all of which means that many of the GSS pilots are looking at the dole queue. As for Europe, forget it unless you are German, Dutch or Belgian. Common market?, bollocks, the traffic is one way only and we just bend over to Brussels. In the UK, jobs are only available to 12 year olds with a new licence and rich parents. The US is out unless you have a green card despite US registered aircraft and crews operating out of British Airbases on behalf of the MoD.

Personally, I should have left this disaster of a country years ago.

You want fries with that burger sir?:ugh::ugh:

[DCBOE]

Correction, a UAE licence is age 59!

[Dan Winterland]

GSS only ever existed to operate BAWC services and was only formed as a UK subsidiary of Atlas when it was pointed out by the CAA that it was illegal for an N-reg company to carry out UK based work. I think BALPA were quite concerned about US pilots helping themselves to other people's commands.

BALPA had nothing to do with it. It was the IPA who pressed the case. BAWC had been stalling the issue - apparently on the back of BALPA's indifference. But the British Airways Line Pilot's Association got their own back with the secondee commands.

[Dan Winterland]

Sorry, I forgot to say good luck to the GSS guys. Some great people there - you don't deserve it.

[A340Yumyum]

Re Korean: You have to have flown the B747-400 within the last 12 (or 18months). The Korean CAA class the B747-8 as a different aircraft so they reject your application.

[zeddb]

And the good times just keep on rolling......

UK airlines will now only accept an application if it is accompanied by a letter from your mum saying what a good little boy/ girl you have been this year.

Plus evidence of having flown less than 200 hours and a loan from Wonga for 150000 Smackers.

On the other hand, I think I will look stunning in an orange B&Q apron.:{

[Iver]

I imagine most of the GSS pilots are applying to Virgin, Norwegian Longhaul, NCA or the 3 big ME carriers. Just caught a glimpse of one of their 748s departing Stansted last week. Awesome sight!

Wish everyone there the best.

[zeddb]

Except Virgin and NCA are not recruiting, NLH only want Captains and in the ME, one has put everything on hold and the other two have an upper age limit of 50 that they will not budge on. As for the rest of the UK, cadets only.

Not a happy picture for many of us. The end of a career will be coming in April.

Thanks for the good wishes.

[newscaster]

Would anyone here be knowing why the tail design on BAWC is slightly different to the BA 747 fleet? were BA planning to alter it on mainline fleet as well? doubt Boeing painted it incorrectly on all three 748F, it looks smarter though.

[zeddb]

Newscaster,

Whilst I appreciate that you have a genuine query about tail fin colours, I regret to inform you that neither I or my many colleagues who are about to loose our jobs on those very same aircraft, give a tiny sh*t about the minutiae of the designs.

Sorry, but there it is.

Lots of love

Z

[Flightmech]

As zeddb says, in the current situation who do you think really gives a s*** about the tail colours? Very inconsiderate.

[JimbosJet]

Largely irrelevant given that they're all being sprayed!

[newscaster]

Sorry about your predicament, hope all those affected find better opportunities elsewhere.

[diesel862]

99% of the ground staff given redundancy notices today...not a great day to be honest - good luck to all concerned.

[zeddb]

Newscaster,

Read my post 66 above. A large fraction of the GSS pilots are not going to find anything. Those under 50, especially if they have sufficient command and or training experience will be fine. The rest of us, and that is a considerable number, are having to come to terms with the end of their flying careers. And not just the age 60+ BA retirees. Guys in their early to mid 50's who do not have pensions and nice memories to fall back on.

Aviation in the UK is now an option for the young and the wealthy only. Experience not required and in fact a definite disadvantage. A willingness to work for nothing or on short term minimum wage a must. Plus sufficient spare cash to give away on a punt known as a self funded type rating.

This short sightedness is eventually going to bite certain companies on the backside when their entire workforce has bogged off to the Middle east and they try to run their services with school leavers. Good luck. Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen in time to save those who might be able to offer a bit of experience and perspective.:*

Enjoy your aeroplane spotting hobby. As long as you don't get conned into making it anything more than that, you will have found the secret of a happy life.

[BusyB]

My commiserations to all those affected.

It would be a nice gesture if BA were to offer FO positions to all pilots seeing as you have been flying in their colours and representing them.:sad:

[despegue]

The Honourable thing to do for BA is to offer employment to all affected crew.

Put pressure on BALPA, let your DFO and Chief Pilot arrange a meeting with BA flight Ops., get active!

There ARE opportunities available orldwide though, also for the somewhat more mature colleagues, so Zeddb, do not despair. never give up!

[Flightmech]

It's not that easy. GSS management have spent years bending over on request for BAWC and not following up other genuine enquiries and now it's bitten them in the a***. While it would be a nice gesture for BA to take on the GSS pilots they don't really give a s***. It's a one way deal. I feel for all in Stansted House and wish them well.

[zeddb]

BA have already been approached with regard to taking us on or even allowing us to attend selection.

The response was I understand, something along the lines of No, not now, not ever, not in a million years so go away and stop making the place look untidy.

The vocal efforts of at least one of their number amongst us to paint GSS pilots as something worse than useless possibly didn't help. Not true either I might add.

The fact is that the 747 is a dying fleet within BA. And Virgin for that matter. They will only recruit type rated guys and there is a dwindling need for folk with the 744/8 on their license outside of the Far East and I have already pointed out ad nauseam, they won't consider anyone over 50.

In six months, we will have been forgotten about, another victim of circumstances. Those who think we deserve it or those who are just starting out and feel themselves to be bulletproof and who cares about a bunch of washed up old farts anyhow, think carefully. One day this could easily be you. As airline managements seek to classify professional pilots as little more than semi skilled shift workers, those nice secure jobs will vanish, to be replaced by short term contracts with no benefits or protection. And then one day, you too will get the axe and you will suddenly find all the doors are firmly slammed shut because of your date of birth. GSS was almost unique in the UK in that it would accept older first officers. No one else does. They may pretend they do but they don't, they prefer youngsters. and what is more, they get away with it.

I am almost certainly finished as a professional pilot and am looking outside of aviation. The nicest discovery I have made to date is that beyond our ego infested, tight little bubble, experience is actually valued and it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of age. There's hope yet.Will I miss it? certainly, I love the job. I loathe the industry though and on that basis I feel quite confident of being able to move on.

[Flightmech]

Maybe that number amongst you who bad mouthed you to BA needs a visit to the car park to "explain" a few things?

[Flightmech]

Those in the know probably not. Certain members of management who have been sucking up to BAWC in the LHR bread bin for years.........probably yes!

[DVR7R]

Such a terribly, terribly sad way for things to end.

I know it doesn't go far, but I wish all of you at GSS the best of luck for the future and whatever comes your way.

[Best foot forward]

There are still jobs out there for the over 50's we have taken on quite few, non type rated, over the last year or so and there is/will be the need for more. Its a bit ironic really as the young ones move on to pastures green they are replaced by older crew members looking to extend their careers.

The down side is the jobs won't be UK based.

[zeddb]

Best foot forward,

Maybe you could enlighten me as to who will treat the over 50's with anything other than amused contempt?

Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

Z

By the way, the one thing that I am looking forward to is putting my BALPA card in the shredder and never giving them another penny. Just like their priority and sole concern BA, they will be very happy when we have all been forgotten.

Another victory for the BA pilots benevolent association. One legged men competing in arse kicking tournaments springs to mind. As in as much use as.

[Best foot forward]

Zeddb. as I said we have recently taken on a few non type rated, over 55's, retirees from a major European Airline.

[Narrow Runway]

I think what Zeddb would like to know is:

Who do you work for?

In his situation knowing that someone took on older guys, but not knowing who that someone is, is rather upsetting.

Be a good chap, drop Zeddb a PM.

[Cliff Secord]

Would DHL Air or EAT be worth trying?

[ATIS]

Guys give Monarch a try. Interviews are ongoing at present. However I'm not sure whether new CVs are being entertained.

Monarch have recently taken on a few ex BMI baby guys, including ex skippers, non rated. And what a decent bunch they are.

Monarch are looking at experienced guys as command time is reducing fast. Current batch just served over 3yrs.

Good luck guys.

[onehotflyer]

Honorable? BA? Id like to see that. What was honourable about the secondees?, lack of any sort of travel benefits for pilots at GSS whilst even ground staff in india had access to it. Sure I could think of a few more points. There is no way they would consider taking on GSS guys. Good Luck to them with Qatar. Hope it comes back to haunt them.

[4468]

Oh dear onehot.
Honorable? BA? Id like to see that. What was honourable about the secondees?, lack of any sort of travel benefits for pilots at GSS whilst even ground staff in india had access to it. Sure I could think of a few more points. There is no way they would consider taking on GSS guys. Good Luck to them with Qatar. Hope it comes back to haunt them.
So, clearly you're looking for an argument as well as a job? Seems like wasted effort to me.
Honorable? BA? Id like to see that.
BA is about the best employer I can think of to work for. "Honorable?" (Sic) Actually yes. Pretty good.
What was honourable about the secondees
What was 'dishonourable'? GSS existed purely to fly BA cargo. Nothing else. Precisely as the recent sad announcement has demonstrated, GSS simply cannot exist without that work. Would you not wish to reach an agreement should your employer seek to outsource your jobs? Secondees formed a small proportion of the expansion commands. Fair? Probably yes.
lack of any sort of travel benefits for pilots at GSS whilst even ground staff in india had access to it.
It's called British Airways Staff Travel. Anyone can have access to it provided they work for BA. Ground staff in India do precisely that. It would seem you don't work for BA, so don't qualify? One imagines you could have applied whenever you wished? Problem??
Sure I could think of a few more points.
Oh I'm sure you could.
There is no way they would consider taking on GSS guys.
When BA recommence recruitment, and if you fit the criteria, I'm sure BA would love to hear from you. Though from everything you say, it sounds like you wouldn't wish to work for them? Am I right?
Good Luck to them with Qatar. Hope it comes back to haunt them.
You need to get over these bitterness issues. They will harm absolutely nobody but yourself!

Best of luck to you.

As for zeddb shredding his BALPA card. What a joke. Who would have been flying these jobs were it not for BALPA? Y'all probably don't need much of a clue.

Knock yourselves out guys! I'm absolutely sympathetic, but stop throwing dirt around. If you didn't understand the gig when you applied, or in the intervening years, you may have been a little naive?

[Cliff Secord]

Suppose it's letting off steam. Understandable and a way of coping until you calm down and thinking rationally. Bare in mind a lot of these guys will probably be facing the end of their careers. Lashing out is one stage of the pain process probably. It's not hurting you let it go, ducks back water off. If someone wanted to throw stones at a company I worked at whilst i still had my job and their careers were going down the ****er id say fill your boots if it makes you feel happy whilst you deal with it.

[zeddb]

Cliff Secord

Thanks for the kind words. Nobody is blaming the secondees, it wasn't their fault and some are just as gutted as the rest of us. The fact they have nice jobs to go back to is their good luck. There were one or two arses, but it dosen't matter any more

4468's comments are pretty much typical of certain elements within BA who are mightily pleased with themselves and are so utterly convinced that BA and by extension they themselves are totally superior and deserving in each and every way to anyone else. They have jobs for life so it is easy for them to look down on the rest of us and tell us to stop complaining and accept our inferiority to the mighty ones who got lucky. None of us deserve to be in aviation according to people like that.

By the way 4468, what would you do with an expensive club membership that you no longer had any use for an outfit that did nothing for you when you needed it?

BALPA exists solely to protect the terms, conditions and privileges of BA pilots. Nothing more. When challenged, they point to their "financial services" and other pointless bollocks that again, are there to steer the investments of the well paid BA fraternity and in the end to protect the cushty lifestyle of the BALPA employees. Furthermore this is not the first time that BALPA have left me dangling in the breeze.

Virgin recognised this long ago and have ditched them. If I no longer have any future in aviation why on earth should I continue to pay them and by extension support the pilots of the company that ended my career? Would you?

The idea that BA would even so much as entertain an application from one of us is as laughable as it is naive. They know exactly who they want and it isn't us. Several GSS guys applied over the years including at least one who had previously passed selection, and who was then told he was 'unsuitable'. Its a joke.

I'm very pleased that you are so pleased with yourself. Just pray that this never happens to you, especially once you get past 50.

[4468]

support the pilots of the company that ended my career?
That single phrase says everything.:rolleyes:

How on earth can you justify that? How exactly did 'the company' (BA or IAG?) end your career? By choosing to shop somewhere else??? What have YOUR company done to help/hinder you?

As a previous poster said, "fill your boots if it makes you feel happy"! Or as I said, "knock yourselves out"!

Just be aware you're talking complete b0ll@cks!

[zeddb]

BA have effectively ended my and many other's careers by walking away from a five year contract after two years without any notice and exporting British jobs to the Middle East. The flying staff had nothing to do with it, no matter how some may be rejoicing.

Your tone and attitude represents everything I hate about this rotten, up itself and ego infested business. You are a tiresome bore. Go away and have a nice life being utterly superior to everyone else.

One day my arrogant friend this might happen to you. Long haul is now starting to follow the low cost route with the arrival of Norwegian and once it does, every other operator will either follow suit or go out of business. See where your 100K job goes then and see just how effective BALPA are at fighting it, about as effective as they were at stopping PTF I should imagine.

[CargoOne]

zebbd

if your company is loosing the contract, this is a problem of your company, not the end client. GSS is not and never been BA.
Star Air is loosing their UPS contract. Should Star Air pilots be angry about UPS?

[Flightmech]

Did UPS have secondee pilots at Star Air? I don't think so. While it was GSS managements/boards fault for agreeing to it they should never really have been at GSS in the first place.

[zeddb]

if your company is loosing the contract, this is a problem of your company, not the end client. GSS is not and never been BA.
Star Air is loosing their UPS contract. Should Star Air pilots be angry about UPS?

GSS did not "lose" the contract, it had been signed for 5 years. BA chose to walk away from it. Slight difference.

GSS never pretended they were BA any more than Atlas pretends to be Emirates or anyone else they operate on behalf of.

If Star are loosing their UPS contract then that is very sad for the Star pilots and I'm sure they are pretty upset with UPS.

GSS flew BA liveried aircraft for 12 years without incident. During that time they never once drove a 747-400 into a building unlike their oh so perfect customer who seem to think they are such gods of the sky and deserving of everything and more.

[4468]

GSS never pretended they were BA
GSS flew BA liveried aircraft for 12 years
Mmmmmm:rolleyes:
BA have effectively ended my and many other's careers by walking away from a five year contract after two years without any notice and exporting British jobs to the Middle East.
Yet you refuse to accept that BA effectively 'exported' BA pilot jobs to GSS to allow YOU to take them?

Hypocritical?

Who's jobs are they exactly????

Finally. What on earth does the BA secondee situation have to do with recent developments between GSS and International Airlines Group??? Or will you be carrying that particular cross all the way to the grave?

[zeddb]

De fumo, well said. That particular guy was a gent through and through and may he rest in peace. The gloating from some at Atlas was bad enough,to have UK pilots rubbing it in is pretty despicable.

4468 is a smug, brainwashed idiot and I refuse to debate with him or her any further.

There is a concept known as Karma. He had better hope that it is only a theory or he might return as a traffic cone on the M25 next time around.

[4468]

No answers then?

That says it all really.

[CargoOne]

GSS did not "lose" the contract, it had been signed for 5 years. BA chose to walk away from it. Slight difference.


No difference. This is commercial relations between separate entities and it is normally referred as "an early termination" which would normally mean compensations to be paid by BA to GSS. Happens every now and then.

[onehotflyer]

I agree 100% with zeddb. 4468 is your typical pompous BA idiot. Best thing I ever did was cancel my BAPLA subscription. As Zeddb and as I told BALPA, anything that involves them confronting BA they totally shied away from.
Secondees were a great bunch of guys but the whole idea was criminal. They stinted career growth of all the GSS pilots and now go skipping off back to the right hand seat in BA and what have they proved or gained? Nothing. They only left a bunch of guys screwed in the wake of their little ego trip.
4468, DHL gets staff travel. So much for your "you have to be BA staff" theory.
And no, I have never applied to fly for BA.Despite the few gripes that I have mentioned, GSS was a great place to work, no Bitchyness or colleagues trying to poison me either (like a BA pilot was saying happened to him). I had no reason to leave.

[onehotflyer]

De Fumo, well said. Yeah or what about the guy that failed his command upgrade 4 times and eventually went back to BA with his tail between his legs, last I heard he was in training or standards or something at BA.

[Airclues]

I could never understand why the GSS pilots agreed to BALPA representation. I suggested IPA representation at the time but was outvoted. It was pressure from the IPA that led to the formation of GSS in the first place.

It is not to late to join. They can't do anything about the IAG decision but they can help find employment.

IPA Pilots - Benefits (http://www.ipapilot.com/benefits/)

[onehotflyer]

I had never heard of IPA until now but I will have a look.

[4468]

So it all comes down to just name calling then, because nobody is prepared to respond to my post #98:
Quote:
GSS never pretended they were BA
Quote:
GSS flew BA liveried aircraft for 12 years
Mmmmmm

Quote:
BA have effectively ended my and many other's careers by walking away from a five year contract after two years without any notice and exporting British jobs to the Middle East.

Yet you refuse to accept that BA effectively 'exported' BA pilot jobs to GSS to allow YOU to take them?

Hypocritical?

Who's jobs are they exactly????

Finally. What on earth does the BA secondee situation have to do with recent developments between GSS and International Airlines Group??? Or will you be carrying that particular cross all the way to the grave?
So you have no rational argument. Just your own bitter prejudice!

I don't like to see anyone lose their jobs. Just don't expect juvenile mud slinging to go unchallenged.:=

[onehotflyer]

You may get a response if we could figure out what you asking.
GSS was only in BA colours the last 2 years. I imagine only because of the -8 and probably a BA idea rather than GSS.
BA does not have cargo planes so no we were not taking BA jobs. Anyway, BA jobs or not, now the Arabs have them and that's a blow for the European job situation. Engineers, loadmasters, taxi drivers, caterers etc etc are also all out of work.

[Flightmech]

Good point form onehotflyer but 4468 wont listen. He only has one opinion and that's always his own. Typical Nigel:ugh:

[JW411]

I don't know if some of you realise it, but 4468 was the registration of the LNER A4 "Mallard" steam engine which produced more hot air and steam than any other locomotive and holds some sort of pre-war railway speed record.

Our 4468 is a typical pompous BA ar*e who gives the impression that he can barely find it possible to walk past a mirror without his hat on.

On the other hand, I and several others, tried to train a gentleman some years ago and we all, without fail, had to admit defeat.

He joined GSS and it is my great hope that if he is still there, he is never allowed to go near another flying machine ever again.

[mover625]

4466 seems to misunderstand the nature of cargo contracts and why it's necessary for BA to have a cargo aircraft operation at all.

When an airline bids for a cargo contract with a consolidator (Stenna or Maersk for example) it has to contract for the whole consignment and that will inevitably include items that are too big for pax aircraft belly holds and also cargo aircraft only goods.
BA and several other large pax operators hand this 'awkward' cargo to companies like Atlas (who operate for Emirates amongst others) and GSS for BA.

BA mainline rates of pay would make an in-house cargo operation uncompetitive hence the outsourcing.

As to whose jobs they are it's simply a matter of economics and, although BA pilots are mostly insulated from the outside world, having worked for BA for 35 years and GSS for 7 it was enlightening to me to see how lucky I had been to be cosseted by BA for most of my career.

4466 should count his blessings.

[4468]

4466 should count his blessings.
Oh I do, I do.

Every time I strap on the jet, I count my blessings that I had the gumption to apply for BA, and that I worked damned hard to pass the interview.

BA pilots are mostly insulated from the outside world, having worked for BA for 35 years and GSS for 7 it was enlightening to me to see how lucky I had been to be cosseted by BA for most of my career.
Oh I absolutely agree. Hamble guys such as you, absolutely have little idea just how lucky they were/are! We still have similar guys in BA. Lots of them. However since I have had extensive flying experience with two other employers prior to my time in BA, I thankfully don't fall into your bracket. Of course BA is far closer to market rate these days, both in terms of pay and productivity, so your comment is largely moot. But having been so long out of the loop you can't be expected to know that your halcyon days have long since passed.
BA mainline rates of pay would make an in-house cargo operation uncompetitive hence the outsourcing.
Possibly. But of course secondees were not paid anything like mainline rates. Which is why they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the sad demise of the contract between GSS and International Airlines Group! The time for debating secondees is long since passed.

Had I been flying for GSS, I would be far more interested in why the rate of pay for flying a 744/8 was no better than for many UK turbo prop jobs. That my friend is precisely where YOU come in! People who simply can't manage to retire on six figure pensions completely skew the market rate for 'ego' jobs such as these! So you see it's people like you who were the real enemy to decent T&Cs. Not the secondees!

But as you rightly say. It all comes down to economics in the end, and the customer has the absolute right to take their business wherever they like. It's little different to shopping in the high street. If you can't differentiate on quality, the only thing left is price!

JW411

Well done. You can use Google! 4468 is still the world speed record holder. A true superlative!

[zeddb]

In all my days in aviation, (20 years up to now) I have never come across anyone quite so pleased with him or possibly herself as old puffing billy here.

The ex BA guys were/are in the same boat as the rest of us, the secondees all have jobs and in some cases commands to go back to. There was never any question of their future being in any danger whatsoever and despite that they were pretty much all decent guys and have had the self awareness not to rub it in since the announcement.Unlike arrogant little Hitlers like you. The secondees were parachuted into direct entry commands that would have otherwise gone to GSS employees. The ex BA chaps that you so arrogantly dismiss had to join the queue like everyone else. How that made them any 'danger' to the rest of us is nonsense. Not everyone lives a blameless and perfect life like you so obviously do and there are such things as divorce and maybe not being in the BA pension scheme for 40 years, things that you in your little bubble will obviously never suffer as you are so bloody perfect.

As for "working hard" to pass BA selection, utter bollocks. You were fortunate enough to have filled in the form on the right day so that you happened to fit the profile that the outsourced firm that screens them were looking for that afternoon. You simply had the chance that others who fell outside of whatever prescription was in force that day did not. Any number of people could be in your place today, you just got lucky, so whoopee **** for you. You are no better than the rest of us, you just seem to think you are.

I never undertook selection for BA, did you possibly get turned down for GSS? You certainly seem to have a right old downer on us.

Just pray that this never happens to you. If it suited BA to outsource all of their flying to Emirates or Qatar or anyone else they would do so. They would close down and restart the next morning under different management and you lot would be out on your ears. BALPA would be able to do precisely F**k all apart from hide in a cupboard and crap on about their tremendous financial services and nice glossy magazine. So think on, you probably believe that you are bulletproof on top of your little pedestal. Take it from a battle scarred survivor of this wretched business, you are most certainly not.

[Wireless]

I don't think there's any UK turbo prop jobs that pay a 45k a year basic year 1 for an FO. One appealling thing about GSS is they recognised experience. Good old fashioned entry requirements. No CTC/ Oxford trainees in sight (that's a dirty word on here these days :O). I just hope VS carry on with their old fashioned entry requirements and don't develop a taste for the trainee only route otherwise my other aspirational airline to work towards would be out :-(.

[Charlie Pop]

It's a great shame GSS has gone down the swanny, I know a couple of good guys flying there who will now be facing an uncertain future. I'm very glad I'm not in their position. But lets take an honest look at things here. GSS was not a 'career' airline; it was barely an airline in it's own right at all. It existed as the b*st*rd child of Atlas and BA World Cargo, it's genesis was an attempt to circumvent UK employment laws and the scope clause of BA pilots and the only reason there are any UK pilots flying that work at all is because BALPA kicked up a stink about Americans flying it. From that ignoble beginning came an almighty stink from BA pilots about the blatant scope-busting attempt from BA. The outcome of that was that the only way in which BA were going to be able to outsource the flying was to give some of the P1 positions to BA secondees. It wasn't a case of 'ES should have resisted', or 'BA pilots stole my command'. Without the secondees there'd be no GSS, no GSS commands and no GSS employment at all. That's the long and short of it. It simply wasn't worth BA's while to get into a fight once their transatlantic scopebusting plan started to come off the rails.

If GSS management had aspirations to make the company anything more than a flunky for BAWC they'd have smelled the coffee when IAG took over and found additional sources of business.

People say that BALPA should have intervened to stop the secondees, but frankly thats like saying BALPA should intervene to improve access to 'pay to fly', or should promote a race to the bottom. I'm no fan of BALPA but even I can see that they can hardly be expected to fight for the right to outsource and undercut the work of incumbent UK pilots of any airline. As for BALPA Financial Services, I'm really rather perplexed what the relevance of that is to anything, pretty much anyone and everyone uses somebody else.

I've every sympathy for the plight of the GSS guys but the 'arrogant cossetted BA silver spoon w*nkers' is a cracked record. Everybody's heard it before and it's well known the accusations only come from a certain small section of the industry. The pilots of Easyjet, Thomson, Ryanair, Virgin, Monarch et al don't have that particular chip on their shoulders. If ranting and raving is cathartic and makes somebody feel better then so be it, but there's only so much scope for ranting before you start to look crazy.

[Wireless]

Fair enough. My apologies. I did want to work there if I could.

I'd like to be in a position to apply to a career airline like your your own BA, but BA have gone newbies only. GSS were one of 3 jet companies left in GB to apply to with experience and an unfashionable type rating. They offered a full time contract too and were a friendly decent bunch I heard on the network.

[mover625]

Thanks zeddb, you've saved me the trouble of replying to 4466's rather patronising reply who for some curious reason considers himself to be my friend - at least that how he addressed me in his reply to my post.
As to his assertion that the ex BA pilots were responsible for depressing the T&Cs at GSS you'd have to ask the GSS management but I can't for one moment believe that they made the argument that there were enough BA retirees on six figure pensions out there that would accept the pay scales on offer so that they didn't need to improve them.
One comes across people like 4466 in all walks of live but never in GSS.
How lucky was that!
Good luck to you and all the GSS guys out there, both flyers and ground staff, who now face a very uncertain future.

[onehotflyer]

"rate of pay for flying a 744/8 was no better than for many UK turbo prop jobs"
4468, Im sure the turbo prob guy flies twice or 3 times the amount of hours that GSS pilots fly. I certainly am happy with my pay for the amount of work that I do.
For all your extensive flying experience you have a knack of showing how little you know.

[Noobyflewby]

I chanced upon this forum today after being given the link to the missing Malaysian 777 thread.


So it was serendipity that I then spotted this thread.


I think it was about 1998 that, as a freelance consultant to BAWC, I was asked to relocate the Atlas/BAWC 747 freighter operations from LGW to STN to free up slots for additional PAX operations into South America.


I seem to recall that there were one or two other aircraft operating out of Africa as well - Lion based in Belgium? - who also got moved to STN.


Whilst negotiating the move with Atlas I recall sitting next to an Atlas director one lunchtime and telling him I had just read about this extraordinary invention the British Navy would be using to power a new aircraft carrier to higher speeds.


It comprised two huge jet engines which, when an aircraft came in to land, would be redirected from propelling the carrier to blast an opposing force of air at the incoming jet to stall it onto the deck thus doing away with the need for the arresting wire.


Pretty cool, eh?


I still laugh at myself now when he explained that he, too, had seen the same article in The Daily Telegraph but had noted the date - April 1.


It was only later that I was told that this guy had once commanded the USS Nimitz - yup . . . only the world's largest aircraft carrier!


Boy, did I feel a dork!!


Anyway, back to BAWC. I thoroughly enjoyed that project [and working with Cargo as I did several projects for them] so I'm disappointed to read what's happened.

[Dan Winterland]

and the only reason there are any UK pilots flying that work at all is because BALPA kicked up a stink about Americans flying it.

BALPA were quiet about the whole Atlas wet lease - no doubt under pressure of the BA management. It was the IPA which pushed the case and the real reason why GSS was started.


From that ignoble beginning came an almighty stink from BA pilots about the blatant scope-busting attempt from BA.

This isn't how ACMI wet leases work. The freight work was outsourced - as it had been for years. The only case BA pilots had was now that the freighters using Birdseed call-signs now had G registrations.


The outcome of that was that the only way in which BA were going to be able to outsource the flying was to give some of the P1 positions to BA secondees.

I don't see why. GSS had been running for a few years before the secondee situation emerged. They didn't need them, and many in GSS didn't want them. Interestingly, BALPA supported the secondee proposal - perhaps as a bit of a F you to the IPA having had their nose put out of joint in 2002. Knowing ES, I suspect he really didn't care where his captains came from, but was quite happy to go along with a plan from his mates at BA.

[Charlie Pop]

BALPA were quiet about the whole Atlas wet lease - no doubt under pressure of the BA management. It was the IPA which pushed the case and the real reason why GSS was started.

I don't know the extent of the IPAs involvement but BALPA were hardly quiet about it. They were certainly protesting to BA about it, which hardly fits with the 'BALPA in BAs pocket' theories.

This isn't how ACMI wet leases work. The freight work was outsourced - as it had been for years. The only case BA pilots had was now that the freighters using Birdseed call-signs now had G registrations.

The issue was not how ACMI wet leases work, it was about how BA pilots' scope clause worked. The BA pilots view was that ACMI leases of dedicated aircraft for exclusively BA work, be it pax or freight, was in breach of Scope.

don't see why. GSS had been running for a few years before the secondee situation emerged. They didn't need them, and many in GSS didn't want them. Interestingly, BALPA supported the secondee proposal - perhaps as a bit of a F you to the IPA having had their nose put out of joint in 2002. Knowing ES, I suspect he really didn't care where his captains came from, but was quite happy to go along with a plan from his mates at BA.

GSS running without the secondees was akin to a tax loophole. They got away with it for a while but the loophole was eventually closed. GSS didn't need secondees and ES fought tooth and nail to keep them out. It was BA who needed the secondees to keep the wheels on the wagon. No secondees would mean no deal with their own pilots and that was a more pressing concern for them than shipping a bit more freight, especially as the cost to BA was negligible. With only one customer GSS just had to lump it.

[Flightmech]

Yours aye!

[4468]

It could have been implimented more fairly, but the way it was done was immoral in the extreme. And possibly illegal.
if I were you, I'd be praying karma don't come a knockin'......
It amuses me how Nigels talk about scope like it's some kind of national law - it's not, it's an internal agreement.
BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!

This thread is entitled "GSS contract with BA(sic!) terminated."

Yet all people want to do is rehash old, and utterly pointless grievances against BA pilots! How pathetic.

British Airways, (never mind BA pilots!) have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with GSS being flushed down the pan. For the answers to that particular question look no further than the GSS management, and faceless International Airlines Group accountants in Madrid!

All this talk of BA secondees is history. It's nothing more than pathetic, pointless, juvenile mud-slinging! Time to get over it and we'll all just carry on with our lives the best we can eh?

Stick to the title of the thread.

[Charlie Pop]

It amuses me how Nigels talk about scope like it's some kind of national law - it's not, it's an internal agreement.

I doubt any Nigels think it's a national law, they're well aware it's an internal agreement with BA. That doesn't make it less valid an agreement in the intra-BA world of negotiation.

I don't think anything about secondments had been written into the first ACMI contract, so GSS had BA and BACC in a weak position..

I refer to my earlier comment about GSS being akin to a tax loophole. If BA and the BACC had been in a weak position there'd have been no secondees. The reality was that with a single customer GSS was in no position to haggle.

"Scope - yeah, so what? We have a contract with BA. Go on strike, see if we care .. But you won't cos you've got bigger fish to fry" (I forget which BALPA bust up it was, but it was much bigger than freight acmi. Even if it had been written in, it would have been perfectly within the clause to say - "Sure - we have two commands reserved for you, you are welcome to bid aspirationally for them" You reckon BA would say, OK we'll find another 744 operator who will accept secondees - Cargolux, Atlas, Martinair? ... Ha, ha , good luck with that one! Or in house at mainline - Yeah right).

You're right, the bust up was much bigger than freight ACMI, but freight ACMI was within the scope of the deal. I doubt Cargolux, Atlas or Martinair would have accepted secondees, but then they were well established freight haulers with their own client base and could continue operations without BA contracts. They weren't an independent company set up to exclusively fly BA freight.

That's what they should have said, and indeed, what DHL said

Nobody ever suggested to DHL they should have BA secondees. DHL are a successful freight forwarder with multiple customers shipping freight on DHL flights. Compare with GSS with a single customer.


and it was particularly iniquitous to apply it after the start of GSS, because it only impacted on FOs who had joined in good faith, most of whom were forced to leave, out of principal if nothing else, and just as much for financial reasons (as I think I was on £27k at the time, which was not sustainable with a tripling of the time to command through no fault of our own.)


Again, I refer to my tax loophole statement. Caveat Emptor. If you join a scope-busting airline in the full knowledge it exists to scope bust then don't be surprised if the circumstances change. And if you fly B744F for £27K then it's worth asking what the catch is.

It could have been implimented more fairly, but the way it was done was immoral in the extreme. And possibly illegal. It should have been the cue to GSS to search out more normal ACMI contracts, but management attempts to stem the exodus with tales impending new customers were pretty unconvincing, particularly after 12 years of Nada.

There was nothing illegal about it. The morality of undermining another airlines scope clause is another matter. If GSS had been serious about operating other ACMI contracts they've had around 7 years to get their act together.

[4468]

de fumo. You started off really well:
Let's not dwell on the secondments and move on;
A comment we could absolutely agree on. But then you couldn't help yourself lurching back into your petty prejudice:
It made the kick in the balls from cosseted ba pilots seem especially unkind.
What the bl00dy hell are you talking about?

Look back to postings #16 and 17 to see where the rot set in starting with garbage from tickler and zeddb.

You idiots think you can come on here spouting utter b011ocks, and those you are abusing will just sit back and take your bitter whining. I absolutely accept you are hurting, but don't be surprised if those you are slagging off choose to offer an alternative view. If you can't accept that then don't spout garbage in the first place.

Good luck to everyone happy to leave the bitterness behind. Everyone at BA wishes you well.

[zeddb]

How sweet it must be to be as self assured and as righteous in the ways of the lord god as the Reverend 4468, all praise his name.

I bow down and scrape before the shining light of your wisdom and henceforth shall accept redundancy and the end of my career with as much grace as one so unworthy can manage. I am a worm, a nasty crawling thing and the wrath that BA have rained down upon my head is as justified as the fire and brimstone that was rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah. Halleluljah, for it is written that my utterings and even the utterings of all who do not reside in the temple of BA are as nothing in the divine light of their mightiness and I shall sod in an offwards direction forthwith in sackcloth and ashes and with wailing and weeping for I have been found wanting by the priesthood. Amen.

F*ck you flower, F*ck you very much.

[Popgun]

If GSS had been serious about operating other ACMI contracts they've had around 7 years to get their act together.

Unfortunately GSS were never going to be in a position to get further customers.

GSS was always an Atlas/BA instrument used to service the Speedbird contract so that Atlas didn't lose it (for political reasons).

They are Atlas aircraft unfortunately. Any additional contracts out there would have been serviced by Atlas...not GSS.

The talk of possible extra customers for GSS over the years was just that. Talk to give the troops some hope.

Many good people at GSS...Sorry to see this is ending up in a similarly brutal state to the AACS/AABO Atlas STN base demise. Bad things sometimes happen to good people.

All the very best to everyone at GSS.

PG

[Flightmech]

As popgun said.

However it may still be prudent for Atlas to have use of a UK AOC should a suitable contract come along, even for just one aircraft whether it be a -400 or a -8.
I believe two of the GSS -8s are going to LUX for bridging checks before returning to Atlas and the other HKG. I don't think Atlas have found work for all 3 of them yet. With the military flying slowing down it will be hard to put these three airframes in a contract flying the same kind of block hours that they are currently flying with GSS.

[A340Yumyum]

How sweet it must be to be as self assured and as righteous in the ways of the lord god as the Reverend 4468, all praise his name.

I bow down and scrape before the shining light of your wisdom and henceforth shall accept redundancy and the end of my career with as much grace as one so unworthy can manage. I am a worm, a nasty crawling thing and the wrath that BA have rained down upon my head is as justified as the fire and brimstone that was rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah. Halleluljah, for it is written that my utterings and even the utterings of all who do not reside in the temple of BA are as nothing in the divine light of their mightiness and I shall sod in an offwards direction forthwith in sackcloth and ashes and with wailing and weeping for I have been found wanting by the priesthood. Amen.

F*ck you flower, F*ck you very much.

Z. You knew the score when you left Beardy Airlines. The exact situation about secondees was made clear to you at interview but you still insisted on berating BA and the 'situation' throughout your short time in GSS. You also harp on about why you didn't get a command at VS because they only went to military guys....apparently.
I don't relish your current situation and wish you well, but just try and stop a permanent grumble wherever you end up; life is just too short.
Enjoy ORD.

As for "working hard" to pass BA selection, utter bollocks. You were fortunate enough to have filled in the form on the right day so that you happened to fit the profile that the outsourced firm that screens them were looking for that afternoon. You simply had the chance that others who fell outside of whatever prescription was in force that day did not. Any number of people could be in your place today, you just got lucky, so whoopee **** for you. You are no better than the rest of us, you just seem to think you are.

Mate, knowing you as I do, I can tell you that you wouldn't have had a cat in hell's chance of a sniff at BA, even if you filled in your application on the 'right' day.
As for secondees 'stealing' your command in GSS, remember, dear chap that you would have had to pass the command training in GSS to achieve your goal.

[hunterboy]

Would it be fair to summarise the thread as IAG have found somebody to fly IAG/BA/IB's freight at a lower cost than GSS ?
I would have thought there now would be more empathy for the outrage that BA's pilots felt when the work was outsourced from them?
Pointless blaming the workers...better to blame the highly paid execs in Madrid awarding themselves nice bonuses and share options.

[Flightmech]

I don't know. Do BA pilots still have the same outrage regarding the BAWC freight that is currently being flown by DHL?

[A340Yumyum]

Flightmech

I don't know. Do BA pilots still have the same outrage regarding the BAWC freight that is currently being flown by DHL?


Nope. DHL was not formed with a sole purpose to carry out the BAWC contract, unlike GSS.

[Flightmech]

But BAWC had the option to purchase/dry lease their own freighters and didn't, instead choosing to wet lease from Atlas initially until BALPA/IPA intervened and GSS was formed. It appears BA pilots (such as 4468) blame GSS for the loss of this flying when maybe their own management were to blame?

[A340Yumyum]

But BAWC had the option to purchase/dry lease their own freighters and didn't, instead choosing to wet lease from Atlas initially until BALPA/IPA intervened and GSS was formed. It appears BA pilots (such as 4468) blame GSS for the loss of this flying when maybe their own management were to blame?

Maybe 4468 has been quite 'vocal'. However, the decision to 'out-source' the BAWC contract was made by people at Alan Sugaaaar level. Pay non-mainline rates for the cargo contract. Must've been a no-brainer at the time.
I'll bow out now as I'm on my last trip and time is precious.
Good luck to all.

[Low life]

Popgun

Many good people at GSS...Sorry to see this is ending up in a similarly brutal state to the AACS/AABO Atlas STN base demise. Bad things sometimes happen to good people.

All the very best to everyone at GSS.


The only decent thing said in the last five pages

Loved my time there

Very disappointed for a lot of very good people

[mark one eyeball]

GSS = yours aye = BA = BA secondees = FAILURE

[TopBunk]

Obviously a sad time for those involved, but I am surprised to see as I write, G-GSSE en-route with a BAW callsign over India and G-GSSF en-route over China, again with a BAW callsign.

As I understand it the secondees have returned to BA.

Are these continuing flights with BAW callsigns an extension to the contract or something else?

Just curious.

[Flightmech]

GSS have always flown with BAW or "Speedbird" call signs? It has nothing to do with secondee flying whatsoever.

[Kep Ten Jim]

When do the aircraft go back to Atlas?

[WhaleDriver]

One goes to Rome N.Y. today.

[champair79]

GTI8152 (G-GSSF) enroute to Detroit today to rejoin Atlas. Currently over Scotland. One down, two to go. :sad:


Champ

[Flightmech]

STN-AMS-DTW-RME. One gone :-(

[boxhead59]

The simple task of returning the first jet back to RME didn't go according to plan. US Customs chappies had no paperwork so we couldn't unload. Had to sit a while before that could happen. Then there was mention of import duties for Foxtrot. Crew went out of hours just as we started to unload so they had a head start at the bar. Eventually unloaded and put the jet to bed and caught up with the crew, in the bar. Next day was her final flight in Big Airways colours and UK reg, call sign Jetlift 604. Landed RME. Shut her down and walked away. Sad really. I wonder if the trade and industry secretary is aware of the havoc wrought by IAG's commercial decision. Good pilots with no chance whatsoever of flying again. Dull if you ask me. If any of the GSS crews read this, you were Gentleman one and all. Sad and sorry it's all over. I don't know what the Latin translation is for: "something this good shouldn't have lasted this long".
Aufweidersehen.

[zeddb]

The trade and industry secretary is doubtless aware of the situation and equally does not give a tiny stuff. The union tried to bring the whole thing to the attention of government and absolutely nothing has happened so I wouldn't put any hope in that direction. We are operating in a globalized industry and UK jobs are expendable if they can be done cheaper elsewhere and especially if doing so increases the profits and bonus payments of the management.

I hope that IAG have good luck chartering an Antonov when they suddenly have to shift something that won't fit into the side door of a 777 and I hope that their employees continue to appreciate their logic when one fine day they decide that it is cheaper for Emirates to fly their long haul services and BA becomes a virtual airline.

I missed my last trip as I had to suddenly go into hospital for an op, so before I sign off for ever, just to say it has been a pleasure. To all my colleagues on the flight deck,in operations, the loadies and engineers. All the best to the guys going to the Middle east, the 787 and those few staying on the 747. To the others I hope something comes along soon and to those taking retirement, especially the BA over 55 club, enjoy it, it was a pleasure to know you all. To the secondees, even you A340YY, enjoy the 320/777 and I hope you had a good time with us.

And that's that.

[stormin norman]

Oh dear.When are people going to realise that if your not in a BA mainline uniform or on a mainline contract ,some time in the future your going to be shafted.

BALPA will always see to that.

[hunterboy]

Gosh Stormin...a bit contentious maybe? I'd be more concerned at a UK government that seems to be doing its level best to minimise UK based aviation. Maybe to comply with a green agenda? I think once the UK signed away access to LHR without getting anything concrete in return and signing Open Skies with the UAE for no benefit to UK based airlines meant we are basically doomed. Even a job with BA is on a downward spiral.
I'm not sure many UK pilots would want their children going into this industry. I think that says it all.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Down to one this weekend I hear. echo next apparently

[Flightmech]

Yep. Routes STN-RME direct on Saturday.

[Kep Ten Jim]

So what happens at RME? Is that where they get their new paint job?

[MarkerInbound]

It's an old SAC base with huge hangers. Like several abandoned AFBs, a commercial maintenance company moved in.

[Flightmech]

Is MidAir the maintenance vendor that Atlas use in RME?

[WhaleDriver]

If Midair is the one with the two large 747 sized bay hangars, then yes. Each hangar has been extended from it's original B-52 size. That name doesn't sound familiar.

Update: Prestige Aviation is who we are using.

[ErwinS]

GSSF departing AMS....

Photo: G-GSSF (CN: 37556) British Airways World Cargo (Global Supply Systems) Boeing 747-87UF by Dutch Photoid: 7799404 - JetPhotos.Net (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7799404)

And as N858GT

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/117002805@N05/13912502004/

[gtf]

Update: Prestige Aviation is who we are using.
Presume you meant Premier Aviation? They have a contract with Atlas for all A, C checks.

[Loader1]

So does anyone know what's going on at GSS? Are they trying for more contracts/ airplanes?

[easy1]

Rumours of 'embers burning' and something happening in September....... Make of it what you will. Would be nice if something did happen.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

All the staff at STN were let go, so very surprised If they re surface any time soon. Last ac goes this week I hear

[Flightmech]

There are a couple of management ground staff staying on in engineering until July to see if anything comes to fruition and the same in ops. Last flight is STN-HKG on Wednesday.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

The first 2 aircraft have been stripped of their
BA colour scheme,so I take it that it wouldn't be down that road again ?

[JimbosJet]

Highly unlikely.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Another end of an era came today, last flight on its way to DEL as we speak

[Xcircustiger]

..anyone got any ideas or news on the implications for the guys at Servisair Cargo STN ?(guess now Swissport Cargo ?) . This contract was a huge amount of work for them and I hear that most of the cargo now flies directly to LHR. Cheers

[ScootCargoOps]

I'm sure some of the staff will support this....

QATAR AIRWAYS CARGO STARTS DEDICATED
CARGO ROUTE TO STANSTED

Dedicated Freighter Service To Operate Five Times per Week

06 May 2014 - DOHA, Qatar – Qatar Airways Cargo started operating its freighter service to Stansted (UK) last week. The first flight from Doha arrived at Stansted’s Airport on 2 May.

“Stansted is one of the largest freight hubs in the UK, which is why we are very happy to add Stansted to our network of more than 40 exclusive freighter destinations worldwide,” said Qatar Airways Chief Officer Cargo, Mr. Ulrich Ogiermann. “Effective 1 May, we commenced five weekly flights to Stansted.”

Graeme Ferguson, M.A.G’s Commercial Director for Cargo, said: “Stansted Airport and M.A.G are delighted to welcome Qatar Airways' new five times weekly scheduled flights, the first regular service by one of the Middle East’s major carriers. The introduction of this service will create new opportunities for customers from the Middle East and beyond, as well as for businesses and exporters from across London and the eastern region.”

Qatar Airways Cargo is operating the Boeing 777 freighter to London Stansted. Stansted is London’s second largest airport for cargo. It transports over £8 billion worth of cargo every year, and accounts for approximately 13% of all UK air freight.

Qatar Airways Cargo recently strengthened its product portfolio with the launch in January 2014 of two new premium services that optimise the transportation of time and temperature-sensitive goods, including high-value pharmaceutical products and perishables. The new services, QR Pharma and QR Fresh, add to the company’s substantial range of cargo services and further enhance its capacity and flexibility to effectively move sensitive commodities in line with the highest world-class standards.

On 1 December 2013, the first Qatar Airways Cargo shipment was received at the new cargo facility at Hamad International Airport. The enormous, state-of-the-art facility, spanning 55,000 square metres, contains a perishables storage area, amongst other key facilities, such as a live animal centre and dangerous goods area. The new self-contained terminal will handle 1.4 million tonnes of cargo per annum.

About Qatar Airways Cargo

Qatar Airways Cargo serves more than 40 exclusive freighter destinations worldwide via its Doha hub and also delivers freight to more than 130 key business and leisure destinations globally on 131 aircraft. The Qatar Airways Cargo fleet currently includes three Airbus A330F and six Boeing 777 Freighters. At the recent Dubai Airshow 2013, Qatar Airways placed a firm order for five new Airbus A330-200 Freighter aircraft. Also included in the order were eight additional A330-200F options, for a total of 13 aircraft.

For further information

Qatar Airways Group
Corporate Communications Department
Tel: +974 40222072, Fax: +974 40225350
Website: www.qatarairways.com

[Private jet]

Well, I reckon if "GSS" got going again it wont be flying nice new -8's, more likely 20+ year old dirty knackered -400's that nobody else wants, to destinations you'll need your vaccination book up to date for, staying in hotels with "maps of treasure island " on the mattress, cigarette burns on the carpet and bedbugs at no extra charge. Maybe even brown water too you lucky things. The business model of small independent cargo airlines in the UK doesn't work, it has not worked for 25 years. The "flag of convenience" fly by night types had it good for quite a while but they have been stamped on now. The smaller companies need to "tie up" with a bigger player to even exist, and we see how that ends... the subcontractor is terminated when demand falls off or a better deal is sourced elsewhere, all's fair in love and war....and business.

[Wireless]

There's another quite large ACMI operator of 400s who'd like to place some in Europe and tried for ages but there just isn't the demand. Shame as long haul freight companies made the UK job market that bit more interesting and varied albeit not necessarily long term career choices. It'll just be 2 big companies in the future. Big bird airlines and the not big bird airlines. Both cadet only of course :}

[Flightmech]

Atlas have just placed two -8Fs on ACMI with DHL. I presume these will be two of the ex GSS airframes.

[WhaleDriver]

It is two of the ex-GSS planes, but is not in addition to our current flying. It is replacing two -400's.

[Airclues]

As I said nearly four months ago;

I spent five happy years with GSS. They are a great bunch of people who have worked hard to provide an excellent service to BA. I wish them all well for the future.


Does anyone know how many of the pilots and office staff have managed to find alternative employment? They would all be an asset to any company.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

The Qatar operation saved all but 3 at Servisair STN

[diesel862]

Just wanted to wish the majority of pilots and ground staff good luck for the future.

As for GSS, I really cannot see anyway of them gaining new work. I would like the many reasons why...but I think we all know.

Rgds.

[Flightmech]

FIGJAM is still in the office just in case so no there's no chance.

[Mr Optimistic]

I am not in the industry but I have just read through this whole thread. I can only wish you all well.

[Dan Winterland]

At least one of the -8s is still coming to HKG. It has the white top and blue undersides of the BA scheme, but with all BA logos painted out. Can't see the reg.

[MarkerInbound]

N858GT (was SSF) has just the white over blue. Not sure what was done to the others.

[Wireless]

Is the office still going at GSS and still looking for work or has the company completely closed down?

[WhaleDriver]

There are rumors of Brit's, with Atlas ID's, running around the UAL training facility getting typed in the B777?

[easy1]

I see Atlas has been coming in, 1 parked up on the cargo stand today.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

The atlas is a charter from manston for ANA and Magma. I heard a rumour GSS were having something to do with a 777F ops into EMA!! Maybe that's what it's all about ?

[Flightmech]

That's ironic about Atlas & Magma as several years ago Magma approached GSS to put a Classic on their AOC and operate it for them. Fell through of course.

[Flightmech]

So any news of anything rising from the GSS ashes? I hear that the remaining skeleton crew has recently got thinner? They cant go on forever with no income.

[Airclues]

Does anyone have an answer to my post number 165?

[JiveBomber]

I think about 5-10 went to he Middle East,same sort of number to Norwegian.Lots haven't got anything yet and of course there were probably upwards of a third of the work force who will probably retire now.
The 747 is a fairly useless type rating and if you're also getting into you're 50's it's really quite hard to find a job.
The BA blokes account for another significant proportion and they of course all went back there.

[zeddb]

I'm supposed to have disappeared but I thought a brief visit back from the grave was warranted just to update the interested.

Quite a large percentage went to the ME (mainly FO's and a handful of the newer captains). Nearly all the trainers and a number of Captains went to Norwegian longhaul, a few FO's went to Air Atlanta, one or two to China, I think a couple to Turkish and there are a handful on short term contracts with Cargolux which end soon.

A number of the over 60's went into training, some retired (lucky sods) and there are a handful still looking from what I have heard.

The BA guys numbered 9 or 10 out of 100 or so and they all went back to their old jobs.

The 747 is a nice aircraft but a dinosaur and consequently a useless rating in Europe. VS no longer recruit onto the 744 as it is gone in a couple of years, with the 787 arriving they can take their pick from the pissed off drivers from EK and others and BA just said no when asked if they would take the GSS guys. If you don't have a 777 rating, longhaul is now a closed door. No one will type rate you and there is no going back to shorthaul as no one will believe that you want to stop flying "heavies" and anyhow you are no longer current on the 737/A320/Sopwith camel or whatever.

China and the ME are out if you are over 50 and an FO. Those fortunate enough to have had continuous careers often expect everyone else in their 50's to be a senior captain and/or TRE and if you are not, it is assumed that you have screwed up somewhere along the line and you are usually ruled out of any selection.

It would be great if GSS were to restart but there is little hopeful news from that quarter.

Flying, a great job but a rotten industry unless you are born lucky.:ugh:

Right, back in me coffin, close lid, shut up and accept it, stop whining etc.

[Iver]

Zeddb,


Cheers for the update. Please check your PM for a question.

[Nearly Man]

Good post by Zeddb

I just started with GSS when they made me redundant but I would still have done it. Lovely company. Flew the 747 so that's ticked off :}
I personally don't think Atlas had any thoughts to start up GSS again. Just working out their way around tax costs through leasing their 777s through GSS.

The gulf airline that cannot be named has stopped hiring for now as they're getting all their Indian friends in straight onto the 777. But they will need 700 guys next year and the same the year after. EK will be shooting Monarch guys storming the gates but are actively hiring.

Zeddb was right about the 747, shame but hey ho!

Good luck all

[Fr8Dog]

Nearly Man

I personally don't think Atlas had any thoughts to start up GSS again. Just working out their way around tax costs through leasing their 777s through GSS.


Not sure where you came up with this misinformation. Our 777's are owned and leased through Titan. A leasing company owned by Atlas.

[Flightmech]

Exactly. Titan Leasing takes care of the 777s, nothing to do with GSS.

[Wireless]

I was reading an article about Martinair which mentioned Atlas through GSS are one of a few companies involved in the purchase talks. Hard with no money though and a 49 percent cap on ownership.

[Wireless]

Not sure why Atlas would want Martin. Article mentions "it's European base". If they did persue MP, GSS would be used as a glove puppet I guess. No idea. Like I said, they were mentioned in a few articles as only one of many companies interested and sounds like its going no where.

Convincing the European control commissions that the majority stakeholder has effective control and not just having it's string's pulled would take some doing. I don't think it is big news as KLM-AF can't seem to make their mind up what to do with Martin.

I did read that Atlas do want to hang onto the UK AOC for what reason is not clear -but without the regulatory aircraft to fulfil the requirement it is going to be very difficult. Short article also attached...

Air France KLM Martinair axes MD-11F fleet - The Loadstar (http://theloadstar.co.uk/air-france-klm-martinair-axes-md-11f-fleet/)

Air France-KLM Martinair Cargo falls while Etihad soars (http://theloadstar.co.uk/air-france-klm-martinair/)

GSS hangs onto AOC by a thread (http://cargofacts.com/gss-hangs-onto-aoc-by-a-thread/)

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Just read somewhere QR are in the market for MP

[GMH]

Fr8Dog

Not sure where you came up with this misinformation. Our 777's are owned and leased through Titan. A leasing company owned by Atlas. Nearly Man is actually correct.

Two of the Titan 777s are dry leased to GSS who sublease them on to Aerologic. :p

[Wireless]

Ah so that's how they still have an AOC? So they're just a lease bridging company for now. Any signs of GSS themselves operating again GMH?

[GMH]

I don't know what the future holds for GSS i'm afraid but I wish them the best of luck in finding new business. I have heard there is still a small team left at STN looking for new opportunities and managing the 777 dry leases.

As long as there are people in the office there must be some small hope of a future for them.

[Fr8Dog]

Atlas Air Worldwide Dry-Leasing Subsidiary Titan Aviation Acquires Boeing 777 Freighter Aircraft on Long-Term Lease to AeroLogic
Monday, March 11, 2013 --

Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. (Nasdaq: AAWW), a leading global provider of outsourced aircraft and aviation operating solutions, today announced the acquisition of a Boeing 777 Freighter by its dry-leasing subsidiary, Titan Aviation. The aircraft is currently on long-term lease to AeroLogic GmbH, a cargo airline based in Germany and a joint venture of DHL Express and Lufthansa Cargo AG.

“With the purchase of this 777 freighter, we gain entry into an attractive aircraft type consistent with our strategy of investing in new technology that creates superior value for our customers,” said William J. Flynn, President and Chief Executive Officer, Atlas Air Worldwide.

“This deal represents an important part of our plan to grow Titan's dry-leasing platform through selective investments in aircraft with existing leases that support leading operators in the airfreight industry. While Titan is principally a cargo aircraft dry lessor, its portfolio includes passenger narrow-body aircraft, engines and related equipment. It also provides customers expertise in asset management, passenger-to-freighter conversion, and other technical services.”

Norddeutsche Landesbank Girozentrale (NORD/LB), a leading aircraft financier based in Hanover, Germany, provided financing for the 2010 vintage aircraft.

AeroLogic GmbH was founded in September 2007 with headquarters in Schkeuditz/Leipzig, Germany. The AeroLogic fleet is composed of eight Boeing 777Fs.



DO YOU SEE THE GSS NAME IN HERE ANYWHERE?

[Fr8Dog]

Here are the next 3, I don't see GSS mentioned anywhere here either do you?

Atlas Air Worldwide Acquires Three Boeing 777 Freighters For Titan Dry-Leasing Subsidiary
Friday, January 10, 2014 -- Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. (Nasdaq: AAWW), a leading global provider of outsourced aircraft and aviation operating solutions, today confirmed completion of previously announced agreements to acquire three Boeing 777 Freighters for its dry-leasing subsidiary, Titan Aviation. The 2011-vintage aircraft were acquired from affiliates of Guggenheim Aviation Partners, LLC and are currently on long-term lease to a European express carrier.

“The purchase of these 777 freighters significantly enhances our position in an attractive aircraft type and is consistent with our strategy of investing in new technology that creates superior value for our customers,” said William J. Flynn, President and Chief Executive Officer, Atlas Air Worldwide.

“The six 777s now in our fleet represent an important part of our plan to grow Titan's dry-leasing platform through selective investments in aircraft with existing leases that support leading operators in the airfreight industry. While Titan is principally a cargo aircraft dry lessor, its portfolio includes passenger narrow-body aircraft, engines and related equipment. It also provides customers expertise in asset management, passenger-to-freighter conversion, and other technical services.”

BNP Paribas, Landesbank Hessen-Thurigen Girozentrale (Helaba) and Norddeutsche Landesbank Girozentrale (NORD/LB), as senior lenders, and Investec Bank plc and NORD/LB as junior lenders, provided aggregate financing in the amount of $432 million for the acquisition of the aircraft. Borrowings with respect to each aircraft will amortize over a term of approximately ten years, with the maturity date of each loan being the scheduled termination date of the related operating lease.

[Los Endos]

Seeing Qatari 777's pass through STN a lot now. After all the historical argument and subsequent G registering of the GSS 747's flown by Brtish licence holding crews to fly BA freight, I still don't know why the situation has been allowed to return to square one. On a different note I also wonder about the apparent permanent basing of ABX 767's in the UK.

[GMH]

Trust me, GSS sits between Titan & Aerologic for two of them.

Press releases rarely tell the whole story. They only tell you what you NEED to know.

[Fr8Dog]

GMH
Trust me, GSS sits between Titan & Aerologic for two of them.

Press releases rarely tell the whole story. They only tell you what you NEED to know.


Oh I will trust you for sure! FNG with 3 posts! What do I know, I have only been at Atlas for 17 years.

[GMH]

Before you dig yourself a deeper hole you might want to check out the latest GSS annual accounts (available via UK Companies House website) and you will see reference to two 777Fs that they are dry leasing.

All publically available information if you just bother to look...

Where should I send the humble pie to Mr '17 Years with Atlas'?

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Wasn't the issue with GSS and Atlas the fact that US carriers couldn't be based in the UK hence the G reg ac, QR aren't based at STN. And the ABX ac are being leased by TNT

[Fr8Dog]

GMH
Before you dig yourself a deeper hole you might want to check out the latest GSS annual accounts (available via UK Companies House website) and you will see reference to two 777Fs that they are dry leasing.

All publically available information if you just bother to look...

Where should I send the humble pie to Mr '17 Years with Atlas'?


Funny, I just spent 30 minutes on the GSS web sites and found nothing about it. Perhaps you might post a link!

I like good ole' American apple pie thank you very much, I think a scoop of vanilla ice cream on the side might be in order as well!

And I am sure enjoying flying the old GSS birds I might say.

Cheerio old boy!

[GMH]

I've already told you where to find the info!

Companies House website.
Search for Global Supply Systems
Latest accounts (2013)
Pay 1 British pound
Get info in pdf form


If you spent 30 mins on the GSS website you must be a slow reader!

[Flightmech]

Oh dear,

It appears Fr8Dog could be another Mojo Wojo:rolleyes: (if you read the post correctly the GSS website was never mentioned)

[Fr8Dog]

Flightmech

Oh dear,

It appears Fr8Dog could be another Mojo Wojo (if you read the post correctly the GSS website was never mentioned)
Flightmech is offline Report Post

To be compared to that dick head is a real insult! I have no idea what other website he was talking about.

And as I said before, I am REALLY enjoying flying the former GSS birds!! Looking forward to the next 3 we are getting by exercising some of our options!!!

[GMH]

Glad you enjoy flying the second hand fleet. They were even better when new!

No idea what the website I'm on about is? Ever thought of using Google?
(Companies House is the place where all UK limited company documents are available.)

As you seem to need spoonfeeding in order to do the most basic tasks, here is the website for you:

[/URL][URL="http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo"]Companies House (http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo)

By the way, the accounts even tell you the two airframes involved too!
Maybe when you hit 20 years at Atlas you will finally know as much about your employer as you think you already do.

[Fr8Dog]

GMH

Glad you enjoy flying the second hand fleet. They were even better when new!

No idea what the website I'm on about is? Ever thought of using Google?
(Companies House is the place where all UK limited company documents are available.)

As you seem to need spoonfeeding in order to do the most basic tasks, here is the website for you:

Companies House

By the way, the accounts even tell you the two airframes involved too!
Maybe when you hit 20 years at Atlas you will finally know as much about your employer as you think you already do.

Being that we have 6 of them that were new, I have been privileged to fly them with the new airplane smell. I am sure the next 3 new ones will be just as nice.

Your website leads to a dead link. And to be honest with you I really don't give a s**t anyway.

[Flightmech]

Like I said........Mojo Wojo

Same attitude anyway

[Fr8Dog]

At least I will "hit" the 20 year mark still flying and getting paid for it. Maybe time to throw a little tea into the harbor again! :D

[Cliff Secord]

Fr8dog

What's happened to you dude? You seemed so decent earlier on in this thread when GSS were in trouble.

[Fr8Dog]

Cliff Secord
What's happened to you dude? You seemed so decent earlier on in this thread when GSS were in trouble.

First and foremost, being compared to Ray Wojnar.

Second, the pompous attitudes.

Other than that, I am fine and dandy.

[Flightmech]

If the comment comparing you to RW has offended you that badly then I genuinely apologise, however you do seem to be gloating a little over flying the ex GSS birds?

[A340Yumyum]

GSS has folded, folks.

[Fr8Dog]

Flightmech

If the comment comparing you to RW has offended you that badly then I genuinely apologise, however you do seem to be gloating a little over flying the ex GSS birds?

Sorry, I was egged on by a couple of the comments. I had friends that worked at GSS, and it is a sad day when anyone looses a job. And in this business when some are 50+ years old, it is almost impossible to go out and get another one with any reputable company. I genuinely feel for the pilots and ground staff

FR8

[GMH]

Had you simply accepted that Nearly Man was correct about the two 777Fs being leased via GSS (which they are) there would have no need for you to have been egged on in the first place.

And A340, GSS hasn't folded. There are still guys in the office at STN and the company is still trading, all be it with no aircraft currently on the AOC.

[Tay Cough]

If it's any help to former -8 drivers, BA is likely to be looking at DEP entry onto the 744 in the near future.

[mark one eyeball]

Those guys still hanging out in the STN office should go find a proper job

[flite idol]

BA 747 DEP ad.;

"To be considered for this role you will need:
a current type rating on one of the following types 747-400/767/777/787 ... - please note that preference will be given to those candidates actively operating the requisite aircraft at the point of application"

Is that how BA usually phrase their recruitment requirements or is that a deliberate COCKpitBLOCK for the GSS folks. Most airlines require recent experience, within 6 or say 12 months. All the best to the GSS guys still looking for a position.:ok:

[4468]

Hey zeddb

You really sure you want to join BA? Thought you hated us all? We destroyed your career didn't we? You may well find you detest the place. Why would you put yourself through that?

All that said, I wish you luck. I hope you get in if that's what you really want.

Regards 4468

[diesel862]

Those hangers on at STN should stay there, let them stay in their little bubble of perfection

[DCBOE]

In case no one has noticed Qatar Royal Flight are looking for a -8 driver.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Prob more as they are getting 3 -8 BBJs