Virgin puts brakes on VARA

[Pindan warrior]

extract from todays Fin Review, for interest.....................

Virgin puts brakes on regional arm

Virgin Australia Holdings has placed an ambitious expansion of its regional division on hold as it works to improve safety and compliance procedures at the former Skywest.

The airline has deferred the planned delivery of six ATR-72 turboprops to a period of between March 2014 and August 2015 rather than the previously planned time frame of November 2013 and December 2014 and has voluntarily kept one new ATR-72, delivered in September, on the ground.

"In 2013 we made a decision to slow the airline's growth to allow time to complete the integration of new resources and to embed the new systems and processes," a Virgin spokeswoman said. "This included deferring the introduction of new aircraft and destinations to the regional network. This is only temporary while we complete the integration process and we anticipate this will be complete by the middle of this year."

The airline has been in talks with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority for months about improving procedures at Perth-based Virgin Australia Regional Airlines, formerly known as Skywest. Aviation industry sources said CASA had not taken any administrative action against VARA because Virgin volunteered to fix any perceived issues.

At its results briefing in August, Virgin flagged rapid expansion plans for VARA, including boosting the size of its ATR-72 fleet to 19 by June 2016, up from 11 at the time. The airline now has 13 ATR-72s, but one that was delivered in September has been parked in Townsville and is not operating as a result of the decision to slow growth.

VARA, which holds a separate Air Operator's Certificate (AOC) from its parent, has come under scrutiny from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau for three incidents since the Skywest acquisition was completed last April. One investigation involved a warning of flaps being too low for an A320 upon landing at Newman Airport in July, another related to an ATR-72 runway excursion at Moranbah in July and an third involved an ATR-72 receiving a terrain warning alert upon landing at Moranbah in May. None of the incidents resulted in any injuries to passengers or crew and the Virgin spokeswoman said they were not related to the decision to slow growth.

'MANAGING THE COMPLEXITIES'
VARA in September announced new services between Perth and Karratha and Brisbane and Cloncurry but has not unveiled any additional routes since. "We have been working over the past eight months to manage the complexities associated with an integration of this size and have taken a range of proactive measures including building up the management team, appointing a CEO and working with CASA to overhaul the systems and processes supporting the airline," the Virgin spokeswoman said.

VARA, which is a major contractor to Rio Tinto, remains confident in its ability to pitch for new tenders in the resources industry where it competes against other fly-in/fly-out operators like QantasLink and Alliance Aviation. Virgin bought Skywest and a majority stake in budget carrier Tigerair Australia last year to help better compete against Qantas in the corporate, regional and leisure ends of the market.

Virgin reported a $10.2 million pre-tax loss from Skywest last financial year based on revenue of $54.8 million after it took ownership of the airline in April but hopes to return the regional operations to profitability as soon as practicable. VARA is run by Merren McArthur, who is responsible for the airline's AOC and had previously oversaw Virgin's alliances, network and yield functions.

VARA head of flight operations Warren Wilkinson, the chief pilot on the AOC who had served at Skywest for 18 years, resigned in August after Virgin told him the scope of his role would be changing. It has put in place a temporary head of flight operations until Mark Davey, the chief operating officer at Qantas Airways-owned Network Aviation, starts as the new chief pilot on February 15.

[Going Nowhere]

More like CASA puts the brakes on VARA.

Months ago they were told no more planes until mid this year.

They couldn't expect to almost double the size of the fleet, add a new type and set up new bases in such a tight timeframe without running into problems somewhere.

[PLovett]

The problems, from reading the Fin Review and the Plane Talking blog, would appear to be more to do with operating standards in the former SkyWest operation than that of integration of processes, despite the quote in the Fin Review article. For example, Moranbah (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/01/09/what-were-they-thinking-on-this-virgin-flight/), appears to be a particular problem. :uhoh:

[DutyofCare]

Warren had to go because of his poor performance: End of Story !!!
VARA has blead heaps of $ with alot of poor recruiting + the 457 disasters.
V have recognised / reacting to this & are trying to keep CASA at bay.
Yes, the model will work & Q are very rattled / worried by this.
They have many good staff / crews which will do very well for their very impressive V boss.
Recent poaching to Tiger has began, the GEN Y's can't help it...
MD coming on board ???
I can ONLY hope it's for his Q knows: That's it: then kick him out !!!
Very interesting post below why Warren was pushed...

Virgin flight triggered terrain alerts, ATSB investigating | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/01/09/what-were-they-thinking-on-this-virgin-flight/)

[CAR42ZE]

Warren had to go because of his poor performance: End of Story !!!
VARA has blead heaps of $ with alot of poor recruiting + the 457 disasters.
V have recognised / reacting to this & are trying to keep CASA at bay.

Ummmm.... Yeah, I don't think so. While SkyWest weren't exactly the smartest operator on the airfield, I don't think you could have 18 years of poor performance as a CP and then suddenly get found out. I don't know the guy, but I don't think 'poor performance' is the entire story. 18 years though? 'bout time for a new face anyway.

And you make it sound as if VA suddenly realised things were getting out of hand and wanted to do things by the book - and tell CASA just for the sake of it. That'd be a first! An AOC self-referring without an NCN! (or whatever they're called this week). Now THAT'S crazy talk!

[Anthill]

Wazza took over from Eric Rose as Chief Pilot about 3 or 4 years ago.

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

MD will do to VARA what he did to Eastern.

God help you all! :ugh:

[VH-FTS]

What was the issue at Eastern with MD?

[VH-FTS]

CASA possibly needs to be considered a contributing factor to the Moranbah incident. Why? Well, why did it take them so long to issue RNAV approvals, then make VARA go through the process all over again, taking a further 12 months, just because there was basically a name change to RNP.

If the crew that fateful day had an RNAV option, instead of having to do a filthy GPS arrival then attempt to circle, then it is highly likely the incident would never had happened. Not condoning the crew's actions in anyway though.

Only in recent months have VARA finally been able to conduct RNAVs instead of NDBs etc. into places like Moranbah, Emerald and Port Macquarie? How can CASA consider such instrument approaches to be more safe than RNAV? Where was the effort to fast track approvals? Do you think this will be discussed in the final ATSB report (yeah right!).

Happy to be corrected about any of the above.

[TWOTBAGS]

FTS is right, CASA dragging their feet is a major contributing factor. VARA are not the only operator plagued by this reality.....:ugh:

[Prince Niccolo M]

I think we can all agree that there is an approval process. CASA issued the approvals when they were satisfied that all of the requirements had been met, presumably not only for now but for the foreseeable future. All operations before the approval date were conducted in the full knowledge that the approval had yet to be granted.

OK, so now the allegation is made that the purported delay in issuing the approvals by CASA contributed to the crew's decision-making and TEM when faced with the situation at Moranbah.

Now, I do not have a preferred antagonist in this debate, so I'll just challenge the hypotheses a bit:

+ Is the approval process unreasonably different from similar processes here and elsewhere?

+ Was the applicant fully compliant and prepared when seeking approval?

+ Were there any unforeseen technical difficulties with the aircraft equipage?

+ Were the CASA personnel properly qualified and authorised to conduct the approval process?

+ What is the benchmark approval time for this approval?

+ Were there any internal issues at CASA that unreasonably delayed the process?

+ Was the approval time significantly outside the range of times that constitute the benchmark?

+ Have CASA and the Applicant conducted a post-approval review to identify any relevant lessons for either party?

+ Did the applicant have a CASA-approved HF training system in place?

+ Did the applicant's HF training system include TEM and CRM training related to situations such as eventuated at Moranbah?

+ Did the applicant's SOPs provide relevant guidance on situations such as eventuated at Moranbah?

+ Were the crew's actions at Moranbah consistent with the applicant's SOPs and TEM/CRM training?


Hang on, I can't quite think of how to join the dots to make the delayed approval a causal or contributing factor. :sad: Maybe it goes like this:

+ Does the applicant's aircraft have Cat IIIc ILS capability?

+ Was the lack of a Cat IIIc ILS at Moranbah also a contributing factor to the event?

:E :E :E


Ooops, nearly forgot:


+ How long should an approval take in order to avoid being a contributing factor to any event subsequent to the filing of the application for approval?


and to be truly Machiavellian:


+ Should there be an approval process at all (because applicants, their flight ops and training personnel and pilots always get everything right)? :eek:

[VA7]

Hear hear :cool:

[Di_Vosh]

What was the issue at Eastern with MD?

Without going into too much detail...

IMHO, MD was way out of his depth managing what Eastern had become.

This was compounded by him refusing to acknowledge same, and surrounding himself with his "magic circle" of lieutenants and advisors who were either out of their depth, incompetent, or both (ST and WW spring to mind).

Having said that, he MAY have learned a thing or two at Network, and AFAIK was poached by VARA in order to "sort them out" (whatever that may mean).

DIVOSH!

[KRUSTY 34]

From what I can see the VARA model, thankfully, was changed from it's original intent. You need to look no further than the US to see what was on the minds of the creators of this scheme.


Continental airlines need to divest itself of loss making thin routes, either by re-equipping or liquidating the routes altogether.
Continental approach several small Regional carriers with a deal. They gift these thin routes to the Regionals, who then embark on an aggressive re-equipment, and expansion plan.
As a result 50% of all US Domestic flying is now performed by the Regionals.
Continental however retain the profits from these routes, and pay the Regionals a fee for every sector flown. It is sold to the Regional concerned as constant and continuous cash flow. (can anyone say Bank-Run!)
The reality is that the Regional airline loses control of passenger revenue.
Training, maintenance, the sheer expense of the new aircraft all lead to the Regional falling into financial difficulty.
Appeals to the parent results in nothing more than advice. "You will just have to reduce costs". Meanwhile Continental continue to take the cream for what amounts to no real financial risk
The regionals cut. Wages, conditions, staff numbers, training...... What did they end up with?
COLGAN!

Fortunately this "American" plan didn't get to that stage. SkyWest went broke within 6 months. A $100 million loan from VA only provided a stay of execution for a further 6 months!

VA now had a decision to make. Cut SkyWest loose (that's what the Americans would have done), or spend more money and take them over. In reality there were no other real contenders for this now Hi-Profile little venture considering such a small market, and we now have what we have today.

I sincerely hope that VA and VARA make a go of it. The last thing any of us want are pilots out of work. Considering the ongoing loses of both VARA and TT, these entities are an anchor around the Mainline neck! Hundreds of Millions, if not more than a Billion dollars will need to be spent to bring them up to the capacity were they become profitable.

Are the genius's who thought up these schemes still employed?

[scrubba]

So Krusty,

How is this different from the Eastern/Sunnies/Cobham approach? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Fuel-Off]

Colgan, Republic Airways et al of that ilk aren't owned by the majors. In Qantas' case if Sunstate/Eastern start loosing money, the parent wears it too (including the risk because they are wholly owned subsidiaries).

What Krusty was doing was drawing parallels with Virigin and Skywest and the then Continental and Colgan. Virgin asks Skywest to do the flying, with not as much financial risk compared to the Qantas/Sunnies/Eastern situation. Then Virgin buys Skywest and the old school two airline arrangement appears like Groundhog Day.

I guess the only thing that comes close to the way the US is now is the arrangement between QF and Cobham. Only difference is Cobham fly QF owned metal compared to the regional carriers over there who fly their own aircraft for the majors they are contracted to.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Chadzat]

Krusty, you used to make a lot of sense but these days I just have to laugh at your posts. For one you cant even get the capital letters of Skywest right! (little w!)

Skywest was not losing money when it was bought, it was just running on the smell of an oily rag. It was certainly not equipped to go from 20 airframes to over 30 in the space of 18 months. That investment (anchor on Virgin as you call it) will enable the company to expand SAFELY.

Why would Virgin have been so interested in Skywest if the model and business wasnt making money? The ATRs basically print money. :ok:

Id be worried about Rex losing out on some routes if VARA heads south of Albury in a big way ;)

[KRUSTY 34]

Sorry about the Skywest spelling Chadzat, damn ipad spell check. KRUSTY too lazy to edit.

All new start ups require time and expense, but the ATR'S aren't printing money, and will not do so until the net is cast wider. The challenge for VA is just how much cash they will burn in the meantime. VA have a history of sticking by their decisions though, just look at how much money was thrown at VOZ in the first 4 years! The decisions however are becoming more complex considering the diverse nature we now see in ownership. But I diverge.

The crux of my post was to highlight the changeing nature of the VA/SkyWest (there's that spellcheck again) "partnership". If Skywest didn't bite off more than they could chew, then why was VA forced to loan the carrier $100 mil? If the loan, and the subsequent takerover didn't happen, would Skywest still be operating in their own right today?

As for REX losing out? If the planned expansion of both the ATR and TT operations go ahead with hopefully a move towards profitability, REX will certainly lose out, but probably not in the way you have suggested!

[smiling monkey]

Would the brakes on VARA direct entry recruitment have anything to do with Virgin's cadet pilot program? How many cadets are there to start on the ATR72 after graduating?

[Sand dune Sam]

For credibility reasons alone, perhaps KRUSTY could come out and name his sources?.. I'm not close to the action, however have many friends who are and from what I've heard VARA isn't burning cash, in fact their load factors would suggest otherwise.

The VA, VARA, TT relationship has a long way to go..probably not a good idea to get second hand information and relay it on pprune KRUSTY..unless your source is JB or his inner sanctum of management, I'm afraid your credibility is shot.:ugh:

Run along now....

[Fonz121]

I know many Qlink friends where putting there expressions of interest In for the ATR positions last night !!

Why would they do that?

[Going Nowhere]

Big difference between Mainline and QLink.

Very doubtful there'll be any operational losses at Link. At the rate crew are leaving, attrition will take care of any excess crew! :E

[Fonz121]

When you're earning the worst wage on the most profitable aircraft in the group you probably don't have a lot to worry about.

[SHVC]

Not any time in the near future, ATR does not go to ML

[ASY68]

Because it doesn't go now, doesn't mean it's not going to happen soon.

[ASY68]

Anyone know what happened to a certain amount of ATRs today?

[Goat Whisperer]

AS68, I'm guessing you're referring to this:

Virgin Australia, safety regulators, wake in fright outback | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/03/07/virgin-australia-safety-regulators-wake-in-fright-in-moranbah/)

[ASY68]

No, there is something else going on involving the ATR...

[DutyofCare]

Virgin plane suffers two mid-air incidents, one resulting in woman breaking leg

An investigation is underway into a flight that left a Virgin Australia crew member with a broken leg, and another incident involving the same plane a few days later.
The female crew member was injured when the ATR-72 turbo prop encountered severe turbulence on a flight from Canberra to Sydney last month.
Virgin says the plane was inspected by an engineer and cleared to fly.
Five days later, during a flight to Albury in New South Wales, the pilot reported a possible bird strike.
He later found the aircraft had been damaged.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau says the plane remains on the ground at Albury.
The bureau is interviewing crew and maintenance personnel and examining the flight recorder.

Another " experienced " 457 Visa holder FO at work... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[wondrousbitofrough]

Dutyofcare, maybe you should wait until the report is published before you jump to conclusions. Until it is, I'll consider the crews involved to be unlucky, not unsafe.

[SHVC]

And it is not going anytime soon!

[Vorsicht]

Cash flow (+ve/-ve) = LOAD FACTOR x YIELD

Sorry, cashflow positive just means more cash coming in than going out. Doesn't necessarily mean profits.

[43Inches]

Profit/Loss is an indicator of the overall performance of a business for a year. Its a direct measure of whether the company gained or lost ground financially during the period.

Cash flow is a measure of the companies ability to conduct its business, pay bills, repay loans, pay staff etc. This includes procedes from borrowings etc.

VAH made a loss last half, but it actually improved its cash position by about $200m with $933m worth of borrowings. As a result net long term liabilities increased accordingly.

The more liabilities you have the greater the cash position required to prove that business will continue to operate smoothly.

If you compare this to Rex for example the company operates with small cash reserves due to almost no debt position, positive cash is reinvested directly into the company.

[discus2]

You gotta love such nice posts...

Another " experienced " 457 Visa holder FO at work...

I am delighted to see that someone who can hide behind such an imaginative name ( DutyOf Care ) can enlighten us in such a constructive way.

Though I am a bit disappointed that the ATSB has not offered you a position as a lead investigator yet.
Investigations would be wrapped up swiftly...Just a quick look at a crew member's nationality could suffice.

I am going to refrain myself from falling as low as you and to the invaluable moral dimension of your intervention by wishing you the most amazing international flying career in North Queensland.

May the events of life prevent you from going abroad dear aviator...

[Sand dune Sam]

Juzanutherpilot..Yep, your totally correct .. How terribly remiss of me to post such a thing...

I'll try again... The ATR operation is failing, the profits are not there, the yield is poor, pretty soon, VARA will be wrapped up, to make way for more efficient and high yielding airlines...

In my 28 years of flying how could I possibly be so wrong in my assumptions...:rolleyes:

[SHVC]

How long before CASA ground this operation? serious incident #4 for the year.

[Normasars]

Can't people even spell and punctuate the English language anymore?

I thought there was a requirement to have a pass in English at least in Year 12 :ugh::ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

Come on Westboundflyer, just roll with the punches!

Good mate of mine is a Captain with VA, been there almost since the beginning. You will not find a better aviator than this bloke. But his punctuation and spelling is atrocious.

Having said that, take Normasars's advice. Spell check is your friend.

[ozbiggles]

Norm, you forgot the full stop.
I know, back in my box...full stop.

[flyingfrenchman]

Not to mention the comma!

Glass houses and all.

[Square Bear]

I thought there was a requirement to have a pass in English at least in Year 12

An amusing comment from one who is obviously blind to his own grammar shortfalls.

Don't worry about the comments Westbound, us mere mortals are quiet happy to read your post as is.

[Capt Claret]

I think noisy happy is better than quiet happy. :p ;)

[CAR42ZE]

I doubt CASA will ground VARA, and from what I understand there going from strength to strength.

Grounding is serious business, but I wouldn't say VARA is a strength at the moment. Front of house is somewhat okay - back of house in the AMO/CAMO still has rumours of concern - not sure on the severity though. Might be just the original concerns are taking longer to rectify and are still swirling as gossip.

[KRUSTY 34]

I reckon VARA, and for that matter Tiger's future will depend on who gets the remaining share of VA?

Until that happens, I don't think we'll see much more development!

[SHVC]

500's are all Brisbane. Next two 600's are for Canberra. No new routes in he near future not untill after July.

How did you come up with that Krusty?

[Goat Whisperer]

Mel-Lst and Mel-Mql have been planned for some time....

[KRUSTY 34]

I dunno' SHVC?

Maybe something to do with the current bottom line?

Maybe something to do with initially it's all go, go, go, then everything comes to a complete stop! Hell, even the livery change on the remainder of the domestic fleet came to an abrupt end!

Think about it. How much will the expansion of VARA from the current 14 airframes to the advertised 35 cost? And I'm not just talking aeroplanes.

How much to expand TT OZ from the current 11 airframes to the planned 30? Again, I'm not just talking aeroplanes.

The $300 mil from the latest sell-off barely scratched the surface!

I've read the annual report. VA and it's entities need an enormous amount of capital to complete the advertised expansion. I'm simply posing the question...

Where will the money come from?

[SHVC]

Yes Melbourne and Launseston have been planned for a while but have been put on hold untill after June-July at least. Softening market in QLD the plan is to expand in NSW.

The bigger problem when expansion does proceed is simulator time, rumor has it that guys will begin to expire this year because of this.

[wishiwasupthere]

Are there plans to put an ATR sim in Australia? Surely its getting to the point where the amount of airframes in country justifies it. Sending guys to Auckland and Singapore every 3 months (??) for their sims can't be sustainable.

[KRUSTY 34]

Yep, can of worms mate.

Time is what is needed. That and a stack of cash. Hopefully it all pans out!

[SHVC]

Im sure that is the plan, but ATR won't come to the party anytime soon I think.

[Goat Whisperer]

Do these new routes mean a melb base will be on the cards sometime this year?

Unlikely. Even without the delayed expansion of the ATR fleet, that flying is better done ex CBR base with overnights at out ports.

[Icarus2001]

Sending guys to Auckland and Singapore every 3 months (??) for their sims can't be sustainable.

They do 3 month sims? Really?

Cost of a flight to Auckland or even Singapore is how much more than say Mel? Peanuts in the scheme of things.

[SHVC]

4-6 months sims and yes very expensive sending guys to Auckland and Singapore when they have to go Buissness class.

[sled_driver71]

Wouldn't of thought they would be paying full fare considering Singapore and AirNZ have stakes in mainline..........

More reason to keep it in the EBA if there's no sims likely in Australia for a while ;p

[DutyofCare]

Why is it that the grounded VARA ATR 72 in Albury hasn't been repaired as yet ?

Why is it that CASA doesn't provide a P.U.S to allow it to fly to a place so it can be repaired ???

Why is it that the manufacturer hasn't come to aid ( of 1 very good customer ) with a viable fix to free this machine to operate again ?

Why won't CASA allow 1 extra - free spare unit - to join the fleet to replace that which is still sitting in Albury ???

Hmmm, all very quite out there concerning this very troubled unit !!!

[scrubba]

Obviously I missed something:

Why is it that the grounded VARA ATR 72 in Albury hasn't been repaired as yet ?

What happened - heavy landing?

[Prince Niccolo M]

So DutyofCare says: "V's 1st Hull Loss ???"

While I don't know what happened to the aircraft, the title suggests major damage. I presume that DutyofCare is being rhetorical with his questions to point out some issue with CASA Airworthiness and the controlling office. :hmm:

Why is it that the grounded VARA ATR 72 in Albury hasn't been repaired as yet ?

Why is it that CASA doesn't provide a P.U.S to allow it to fly to a place so it can be repaired ???

Why is it that the manufacturer hasn't come to aid ( of 1 very good customer ) with a viable fix to free this machine to operate again ?

Presumably the damage is outside normal AMM processes and limits. It would also appear that the manufacturer has not devised a repair scheme and, understandably, no CAR 37 (or whatever it is now) delegate will take on the liability in the absence of OEM support. :oh:

The clear implication is that the structural damage is so severe that only an on-site remanufacturing option (such as the B717 and the A380 repairs) is viable. If that is the case, then any reference to a CASA PUS is both nugatory and gratuitous. If it is not the case, then the implied scenario is mischievous or worse. := :sad: :bored:

Does anybody have any clarifying information?

As for the last question, that has me intrigued:

Why won't CASA allow 1 extra - free spare unit - to join the fleet to replace that which is still sitting in Albury ???

Is CASA really preventing such a course of action?

If so, on what basis?

Are there issues with registration, airworthiness control, RPT compliance, leasing arrangements, etc of the spare aircraft?

If the aircraft meets all the requirements to be added to the AOC or substituted in on a temporary basis, what operational requirements could possibly become a roadblock to what seems to be a normal commercial arrangement?

I hate being confused, so can someone shed some light on this, please? :confused:

[Bellcrank 74]

Nothing will be done to the Aircraft in question whilst the ATSB has it impounded. This is still the case.


The manufacturer (ATR) has been on site I believe and assume they will give their feedback once aircraft is released from the ATSB.


From what I have heard and photos I've seen this will definitely be an ATR AOG crew recovery.

[campdoag]

When did this alleged incident occur?? Nothing noted regarding an active investigation on the atsb website.

[Bellcrank 74]

A/C has been in ABX since 20 Feb so I believe......

[VNAV_PTH]

Quick google search reveals bird strike:

Virgin plane suffers two mid-air incidents, one resulting in woman breaking leg - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-07/virgin-plane-investigated-after-two-mid-air-incidents/5304732)

Jeez some of you blokes are cryptic!

[Bellcrank 74]

Must have been some bird......

[CAR42ZE]

Must have hit a pterodactyl, huh?

ATSB padlocking an aircraft after a birdstrike is pretty extreme. Never heard of that before. There is nothing for ATSB to gain unless of course the aircraft hit the bird as it was still sitting in its nest. Something more to this story I think...

[ground-run]

Interesting. I note the article states: "Five days later, during a flight to Albury in New South Wales, the pilot reported a possible bird strike."
So was it a bird at all, or the sound of something failing post the severe turbulence event?

[Prince Niccolo M]

After DutyofCare's alerting us to the falling of the sky at Albury, PPRuNe is remarkably short of information.


So is the aircraft still there or being rebuilt or being parted out?

[Bellcrank 74]

Still there........

[Hasselhof]

Still there........

........ and slowly getting covered with more and more preserving plastic wrap. Haven't seen much activity at the hangar either, must be costing someone a fortune. If I get a chance I'll take and post a photo when I'm there next week.

[Bellcrank 74]

Word from a good source is another ATR grounded in Canberra with engine failure

[VNAV_PTH]

An engine failure! Mother of God...

[Mach E Avelli]

An engine failure is nothing compared to how close a certain airframe came to failing. It will be interesting to see if an economically feasible repair program is possible.

[Going Nowhere]

4G pull up anyone? :sad:

[Prince Niccolo M]

This just keeps getting better... :E


So how many broken legs amongst anyone standing at the time? :eek: :uhoh: :hmm:

[Going Nowhere]

Apparently at least one.

Scary thing is, if true, the aircraft flew on for a day or two afterwards before being inspected for another separate reason.

All second/third hand so take it with a grain of salt...

[who_cares]

I heard around +4g quickly followed by nearly -2g resulting in a F/A with a compound fracture.

[Blueskymine]

Oh dear.

What is happening in our dear industry. Is it a standards issue? It's not just VR. It's across the board.

A lot of these issues come down to not using correct flying technique, and not knowing the contents of the books.

Be safe out there. We play for keeps.

[Going Nowhere]

M12,

Sounds very similar to the story I was told.

You'd think overspeed recovery would involve a reduction in power...

Never thought the ATR would get anywhere near Vmo in the cruise! :}

[Prince Niccolo M]

If such an injury occurred, it would seem to be an immediately reportable event in accordance with paragraph 2.3(1)(a) of the TSIRs.

One might expect that an IRM would set off a number of processes under the SMS, including the involvement of the HoFO. Stretching a little further, an event that generates a serious injury might pique one's interest in the possibility of the event also being a CAR 47 event:

47 Maintenance release to cease to be in force

(1) If:

(aa) the holder of the certificate of registration for; or

(ab) the operator of; or

(ac) a flight crew member of; or

(ad) an authorised person engaged (whether as an employee or on his or her own behalf) in the maintenance of;

an aircraft in respect of which a maintenance release is in force becomes aware:

(a) that:

(i) ...

(ii) ...

(iii) abnormal flight or ground loads have been imposed on the aircraft;

Putting aside the salt shaker for a moment, wouldn't that leave a lot of folks (including CASA) looking very nervously at each other? :uhoh:

[Managers Perspective]

Maintenance Release was not in force for the flight.

MP

[Sarcs]

Post # 1874 - Shades of PelAir perhaps?? (http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/429828-merged-senate-inquiry-94.html#post8437880)

scrubba: Given the emerging story of the VARA ATR at Albury, what are the chances that the ATSB and CASA have found a deep enough part of Lake Hume to hide the CVR and FDR, given that everyone survived...

Classic scrubba...:E If part of the somewhat disjointed thread rumours are indeed true it certainly paints for some disturbing parallels with PelAir:

Virgin plane suffers two mid-air incidents, one resulting in woman breaking leg (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-07/virgin-plane-investigated-after-two-mid-air-incidents/5304732)

Updated Fri 7 Mar 2014, 8:12am AEDT
Map: Australia (http://maps.google.com/?q=-26.000,134.500(Australia)&z=5)
An investigation is underway into a flight that left a Virgin Australia crew member with a broken leg, and another incident involving the same plane a few days later.

The female crew member was injured when the ATR-72 turbo prop encountered severe turbulence on a flight from Canberra to Sydney last month.

Virgin says the plane was inspected by an engineer and cleared to fly.
Five days later, during a flight to Albury in New South Wales, the pilot reported a possible bird strike.

He later found the aircraft had been damaged.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau says the plane remains on the ground at Albury.

The bureau is interviewing crew and maintenance personnel and examining the flight recorder.

Passing strange that the first incident (actually listed as an accident) is duly recorded (see here (http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-032.aspx) & page 15 of weekly summary here (http://atsb.gov.au/media/4723912/AWS_28Feb2014.pdf)) and yet the ABC article listing a possible bird strike incident 5 days later is not recorded as such, rather it is listed pg 16 here (http://atsb.gov.au/media/4723918/AWS_7Mar2014.pdf) as:

25/02/2014 * 201400985 *Accident-Yes - AO-2014-032* near Albury Aerodrome NSW*
ATR - GIE Avions de Transport Regional* ATR72-212A*Air Transport High Capacity*Passenger* D CTR
During a post flight inspection, substantial damage
to the aircraft's tail assembly was detected. The
investigation is continuing.

So the ATsB has tied the two incidents (accidents) together, yet there is no big media statements from the bureau/Fort Fumble, no pending show cause notices and no voluntary grounding murmurs from VARA...:rolleyes: Oh that's right SOP 101 i.e. "nothing to see here...move along!":=

One thing is for sure JB cannot be happy...:ugh:

Then from PT on Good Friday... Virgin Australia’s leg breaker ATR now ATSB tail breaker
(http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/04/18/virgin-australias-leg-breaker-atr-now-atsb-double-header/)
There are some peculiar matters to note about the misfortunes of a 68 passenger Virgin Australia region ATR72 turbo-prop in February.
On 20 February the aircraft was involved in a turbulence incident on a flight from Canberra to Sydney which was sufficiently severe to leave a flight attendant with a broken leg.

The ATSB has launched an investigation (http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-032.aspx).

The aircraft was given a post turbulence inspection by an aero-engineering service on behalf of Virgin Australia which found no damage and cleared the aircraft to continue in service.

(Without prejudice to anyone, Virgin Australia may, like any airline, outsource maintenance and repair, but it cannot outsource its obligations nor responsibility for any outcomes for the work it sends to others.)

On 25 February the same aircraft was alleged by the pilots flying it to Albury to have experienced a bird strike.

A post landing inspection discovered damage to the tail of the aircraft, and it has remained on the ground since then, inside a hangar.

Virgin Australia says the aircraft has not been released by the ATSB for repairs. Yet the ATSB doesn’t list an investigation of the claimed bird strike. Instead this is what the ATSB says in relation to the Albury grounding (http://atsb.gov.au/media/4723912/AWS_28Feb2014.pdf).

During a post flight inspection substantial damage to the aircraft’s tail assembly was detected. The investigation is continuing.

What investigation? The number quoted is the same as that for the Canberra leg breaker on 20 February. But you will only find that reference if you go to the second last entry on page 16 of 18 at the above link.

Could it be that the ATSB knows how to bury potentially embarrassing references to incidents involving high profile airlines, or is at the very least, delinquent in its duties to transparently communicate with the public interest it is supposed to act for?

Or put another way, does it have a clue as to the public interest at all, in a supposedly modern western democracy?

Note that the ATSB makes no reference to a bird strike. Unless this was a mature pelican from the Hume Weir or Lake Eildon, frozen into the form of a feather covered boulder after being sucked up to a high altitude in a chance encounter with a tornado, it is surpassingly difficult to imagine it doing so much damage to a modern airliner’s tail, rather than its front, that it is going to be held for ATSB inspection for perhaps as long as it takes the agency to write its final report, which was originally claimed to be finished by May.

The fact that the ATSB expects to complete this report by May, this 2014 May, is in itself almost unbelievable considering the time it usually takes to finalise reports.

And it’s a double report, an undisclosed double report into the Canberra-Sydney leg breaker and the Albury tail breaker.

Yet despite the speed with which the hidden double header is being thoroughly investigated the ATSB can’t even release the aircraft for repairs, seven weeks after the incident and only a matter of weeks before it is supposed to have been read in final draft form by the parties and then published.

So if it is conducting tests or whatever on the ATR72, how can the report be almost completed?

It beggars belief that Virgin Australia, or any Australian airline, would allow a plane of size to be kept out of the skies for such an extraordinary period of time. If this was a Virgin Australia 737 the airline would have a senior executive camped on the ATSB’s doorstep every day, demanding that it give it back its plane.

Virgin Australia says the aircraft is awaiting release, and then repairs. But its been in a hangar with nothing happening so far as anyone can tell for weeks.

There is no evidence of teams of ATSB inspectors poring over every rivet and no doubt searching for embedded pelican feathers every day in their desire to solve this mystery and give the plane back to Virgin Australia before they actually release the report. Is there?

Just what-the-hell is really going on?

Plus comments

Just a driver

Posted April 18, 2014 at 1:54 pm | Permalink (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/04/18/virgin-australias-leg-breaker-atr-now-atsb-double-header/#comment-25247)

So I was in AY the day the ATR arrived. Our ground handler told us they inspected the tail after a bird strike, and when on the scissor lift, noticed a substantial crack. Aircraft grounded and alternate arrangements made for PAX.

About a week later, I am told that upon further inspection other damage to airframe discovered including several cracked wing bolts. Manufacturer has no repair process for damaged parts of airframe and cannot leave AY under special permit. CASA and ATSB doing back flips as the airframe flew 10 sectors before damage noticed.

Scary stuff.

Dan Dair

Posted April 18, 2014 at 5:32 pm | Permalink (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/04/18/virgin-australias-leg-breaker-atr-now-atsb-double-header/#comment-25253)

As you rightly say Ben;
“Virgin Australia may, like any airline, outsource maintenance and repair, but it cannot outsource its obligations nor responsibility”

However,
If it’s really that bad (& the extended grounding would give you a clue that it is), who the hell inspected it & what were they actually looking at.?
If ever there was an advert for keeping inspection & maintenance in-house…….

Just a driver,
“(the) Manufacturer has no repair process for damaged parts of airframe”

All-in-all, if true, that’s a bit of a bugger, to say the least.?
There may be more Prince but that should be reasonably updated for Easter long weekend cogitation...:ok:

[CAR42ZE]

Managers Perspective (and Prince)-

How can the MR not be in effect for the flight? You can't SFP a pax flight (if you can, let me know who your contact is so I can start using them:)), so normal MR CAR/CASR procedures would have been in place.

Anyway, any crew or engineer (or maintenance controllers - or the operations guys looking at the flight data downloads, etc, etc) can cease the MR under CAR47. Nothing unique right there and I don't see any smoking gun by quoting it.

You probably should be quoting SDRs.



Who does the ATR engineering stuff? Toll?

[FYSTI]

Stop and think about this - the only thing that saved 50+ pax & crew was a serendipitous bird strike & a keen eye. What would have happened without the bird strike, subsequent diligent inspection & professionalism of the engineer? If the rumours of the substantial damage are correct, then it would appear a major fatality was inevitable, in time.

Would the investigation have conclusively linked the the previous turbulence incident & the systemic failures (company maintenance & regulatory oversight) or seek to apportion blame to someone else who couldn't speak for themselves?

If we are now down to lady Fortuna for safety inspections, have we descended to the inverse Reason Model, where the holes are the defences?

This appears to be a very interesting snapshot of a grand failure in progress, captured at the point where the regulators can't wriggle out of their own failures of oversight & are caught in the cover-up. No doubt the spin will be: "this was a one-off, see the system worked, nothing bad happened". We all know differently.

[Managers Perspective]

AOC operated passenger flight, no Maintenance Release required.

No Maintenance Controller approval required.

MP

[Slippery_Pete]

I don't understand why ATR would manufacture a repair.

Exactly what motivation is there for them?

It would be no skin off their nose to say it is unfit for repair and sell them a replacement airframe.

Any repair, even manufacturer designed, carries elevated risk of compromised structural integrity - and associated liability, especially as time goes on.

Tell them it's scrap and fly home to France. I would.

[Toruk Macto]

Australian aviation history teaches us we don't write of airframes . We fix them then quietly move them on .

[Mstr Caution]

Slippery Pete.

I don't know about you.

But I wouldn't feel that excited as a passenger boarding an aircraft type that, once it encounters severe turbulence the airframe is written off.

As an airline executive, I wouldn't be that excited about purchasing or leasing an aircraft type, that once it experienced severe turbulence the airframe is written off.

As an insurer, I wouldn't be that excited about insuring an aircraft that once it experiences severe turbulence may be written off.

As a pilot training provider..........nah.... I won't go there.

MC

[717tech]

I don't understand why ATR would manufacture a repair.

Exactly what motivation is there for them?

It would be no skin off their nose to say it is unfit for repair and sell them a replacement airframe.

Any repair, even manufacturer designed, carries elevated risk of compromised structural integrity - and associated liability, especially as time goes on.

Tell them it's scrap and fly home to France. I would.


Why wouldn't ATR design a repair and get the aircraft back in the air? Not good for repetitive business if you don't provide support post sale....

Boeing send an army of engineers to fix aircraft that would be on the verge of being written off eg, VH-NXE in Darwin... Design the repair, new maintenance schedule covering the repair (if required) and away you go.

[Slippery_Pete]

Hi Master Caution.

Agree wholeheartedly, but...

The inference earlier in the thread is that the controls were inadvertently split by the two pilots and that during the ensuing mayhem large and opposite elevator inputs caused severe torsional forces on the tail.

I'm pretty sure the type has seen severe turbulence since certification without any airframe damage.

[Crackup]

Where has this thread gone? Many months since last posting!

[Chadzat]

I guess the brakes are released then Crackup?

[ASY68]

VHVPI went into service a few months ago and VHVPJ is on its way...

[michael36]

just remember there will be 7 of the Virgin Australia cadets finishing soon so that will take up a few of the spots

[pilotchute]

A one off intake of seven cadets. What's that all about?

[Capt. On Heat]

It's not a one-off

[Crackup]

Hi Chadzap, being well past my use-by date, the brakes are now permanently parked.

[Riding the Goat]

Two more F100's on the way and potentially another A320, Melbourne and Launceston on the sched for the ATR, some more FIFO contracts recently won off other operators, increase in RPT for F100's, so it sounds like the foot is squarely planted on the little peddle!

[BPA]

Riding the Goat,

The Ejet flying in PER is being replaced by the B737. At least another 2 737 are being based there and the Ejet crews who bid for the B737 have been advised.

[Hold_Short]

Seems like the park brake will be set for sometime. Not sure what has happening. Been on hold file for 12 months now with VARA and still no sign of start. Can anyone shed some further light on the slowdown?

[KRUSTY 34]

I'm afraid so.

No Money! :(

[SHVC]

No money Krusty? Care to elaborate on what you think you know?

[KRUSTY 34]

You're kidding aren't you SHVC?


You been livin' under a rock have you son! :rolleyes:

[SHVC]

Simple question Krusty to which you do not know the answer to. If you are going to suggest a company is not expanding because of money you need to provide some facts. If you had any idea what you were talking about you would know VARA have an aircraft delivered last month with one on its way in January and every quarter after that. I can assure you VARA is not struggling.

As for hiring VARA have crews for 14 aircraft as they only have 12 online there is a surplus so when 14 aircraft are online they will start hiring again.

So I'll go back to my rock, you just go back to posting about Rex and how unhappy you are.

[KRUSTY 34]

Ouch!

We'll see. :ok:

[mattyj]

In defence of KRUSTY, it is common knowledge that a) Wider Virgin Aus has just announced a loss of something like a quarter of a billion.
and b) twice in the last year they've gone cap in hand to investors to fix cash flow problems

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks mattyj.

I thought I was just stating the "bleeding obvious"!

[Berealgetreal]

Know plenty of ex employees from Rex and not one has a good thing to say about the place. Having said that if you want to ask questions about their balance sheet none of them will argue that they are nothing but a money making machine. Not sure if the two are related. Any other regionals posting profits like theirs? Maybe Alliance.

Alliance seems to have to balance rout of them all. Employees seem to like the place and they make money.