Low Cost Carriers…who is the best ?

[manflexsrsrwy]

Hi Guys, was curious as to what is going on in other EUROPEAN BASED carriers…
who is paying the best salary, rosters , time to upgrade etc?

any one care to contribute, it will be much appreciated :ok:

[Count of Monte Bisto]

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King. On that basis, given the awfulness of all the rest, it has to be easyJet.

[TRY2FLY]

Think easyjet is best for crews at the moment

[737 Jockey]

Depends on the individual situation I guess, but my opinion is EasyJet for cadets and Norwegian for experienced pilots.

[4redsyourdead]

As a pilot for the competition I would say definitely easyjet or Norwegian at the moment.

[CaptainProp]

....and from what I hear that's not a happy ship either....

[Aluminium shuffler]

All three have big issues - for a start, none of them will commit to allocating a base until you finish training, which is appalling; they know where the slots are available and so could recruit for bases, but their attitude is that we should be so pathetically grateful to earn them so much money that we should be willing to take the lottery on being based on the wrong end of the continent away fro family. If that isn't a big enough indicator of their contempt for individuals, then the fact that all three will take you as a contractor rather than employee, thus compelling you to fly when ill and never challenge any order because you have no employee rights or protection should ring alarm bells. AT least NAS and EZY have union systems, which is why their conditions are better, and the Norwegian union seems pretty tough too, unlike the scared BALPA pussycat.

In a nutshell, keep away from Locos if you can, though admittedly they are better than unemployment.

[sellect]

AS

That is not correct, I knew my base long before joining NAS.
Personally I think, NAS offers the best overall package, if you can stand living in scandi-land, if not then Easy..

[Lord Spandex Masher]

...if you like working hard.

[LNIDA]

NAS still pay you when your sick, i know a few who have had several weeks off during their first year, never a problem with money.

Basing is an issue for some, but part of the problem is that from DOJ to released on line is normally over 3 months and with Norwegian's growth a lot changes, they do make commuting fairly painless.

[ROSCO328]

LHS, Home base, early 30's, 125k a year. EJ takes some beating for me!:ok:

[OPEN DES]

What is your definition of the best? Money is not everything obviously.
The others don't even come close to easyJet in terms of salary and conditions.
EZY 150-180k euro/yr in Europe for LHS plus pensions etc..
NAS offers 8888 euro/mth to LHS contractors if I am not mistaken, quite a difference.
RYR guys get paid by scheduled block hour, or permanent contract for the 'old' guys.
Vueling basic salaries are much lower than EZY however have a large variable flightpay.
Wizzair I won't even mention.

[Callsign Kilo]

If you joined in the last 3 years or so, time to command in Ryanair is probably the shortest. DECs and cadets get hit with the usual Brookfield/Storm dross. CUs are being moved to permanent contracts. Similar cash to Jet2.

I'm pretty convinced Easy has the best contracts, but like everyone else, I'm sure t&cs have went downwards, not upwards. Cadet contracts are a shambles.

NAS is the new bubble, with hordes of RYR guys heading there. The verdict is still out in my opinion.

Jet2 seems a pleasant enough bunch to work for. Not a world beater in terms of money, but a UK base and 9/10, a permanent deal. I don't think these guys work anywhere near as hard as Ryanair, Easyjet or NAS crew?

[ManUtd1999]

From an outsiders point of view, surely Jet2 is up there? Granted the money's probably not as good, but there is none of this flexicrew nonsense, permanent contracts (for the majority), UK bases, profitable, expanding company=good job security, reputation for being a pleasant place to work etc

[truckflyer]

With NAS you are not a contractor like with other LoCo's.

You are employed by the agency, they will pay all your taxes etc., and that's also why you get sick pay.

The new deal the union agreed on, was that you should be offered a core contract within 2 years.

It's quite tidy, but what would you expect from Europeas wealthiest country?

[Monde]

Not true Rosco . No way are you early 30's....:):)

[captplaystation]

truckflyer,
a bit of an over -optimistic / over -simplification there I am afraid. What has been agreed is that a permanent contract will be offered with a "wholly owned" company affiliated to NAS within 2 years , extendable, subject to certain caveats , to 3 (already 3 for the HEL guys in March) As for being "employed" by the agency , yeah, that sounded nice for NAS in the Norwegian press, but the reality is a little more "cloudy", with the agencies varying from "a few" to "overcast".

OPEN DES, Current contractor payment is not 8888€, it is 8884 ;) + 17€/block hr before tax (count on 750hr/year) uniforms /medicals/crewfood etc provided.

No-one has seen one of these contracts, nor identified who/what the "wholly owned affiliate" will be. . . we will find out in March if/when the HEL based guys receive the proposition. . . but, it is assuredly not a "CORE CONTRACT" as dick byrne suggested.

I know quite a few folk who have been d1cked around by Jet2 in terms of what contract they were offered in year 1, & then subsequently the year after, I have heard only bad about the HR Dept, who seem to wield a disproportienatly large stick in this company where crew are concerned .

Ryanair, I couldn't possibly comment :mad: except to say that if they wish to crew their future purchases, & the RPG can achieve something, it will (should) get better.

Vueling is, like Wizzair, a joke in terms of payment offered to be a Jet Transport crew member.

Never worked for them, but I am guessing Easy are leading (or are rather, last :ok: ) in "the race to the bottom".

[mach85]

Take it easy Dick Byrne.

Don't think CAPT PS was having a dig at you, just confirming the facts for all that are reading, thats all.

This was an informative(ish) thread. Lets keep it that way. :ok:

[truckflyer]

Wasn't it agreed that all bases abroad also would be offered core contracts? Spain and UK? Or have I missed something?

From what I understand Arpi is making it very tidy, the pilots are NOT self-employed.

From what I understand they are employed by Arpi, and all their paper work is done properly, compared to many other LoCo's

My experience as a passenger with Norwegian is a few levels above the LoCo trash out there

[go around flaps15]

Core contracts apply for Sweden, Noway, and Denmark only. It was agreed that permanent contracts would be offered in the UK and Spain in wholly owned affiliates such as Norwegian UK,Norwegian Spain or something to that effect.

The litmus test will be in HEL base when the first of these permanent contracts will be offered in March/April time.

[skyways1452]

Anything to be said for Monarch? Recruitment drives are typically well subscribed and hear that most there are pretty happy given the current state of the industry in the UK. Unless they aren't considered low cost...

[Contact Approach]

Monarch are by far the best in terms of management, but EZY take some beating as an all rounder; particularly for cadets like me :)

[BBK]

A friend of mine worked for EJ as a contractor and had settled into his UK base when he was moved abroad. A few months later he got a move back to the UK....at the other end of the country!

Anyway, he escaped to Monarch and hasn't looked back. Permanent contract etc and he's now treated as an employee rather than as a resource to be sent away at a moments notice.

In terms of lifestyle he would have stayed at EJ had he been offered a permanent contract as he liked the base he was at. There will be, I'm sure, be another cadet along to fill his place.

[Callsign Kilo]

Whilst MON may be competing with the lo-co crowd, their t&cs plus management/employee relationship demonstrates the opposite to the lo-co race to the bottom. MON would be one of the best employers in the UK IMHO. Time to command may be lengthy, however I doubt anyone would be joining MON with the objective of achieving a quick command

[Stone Cold II]

EZY for me, LHS at my home base, currently done 690 hours during the rolling 12 months and never worry about the threat of redundancy hanging over my head. Would be a brave move for me to leave that.

[Field In Sight]

Time to command in Monarch is down at 4yrs, for some of this years upgrades.
With the planned expansion, it will be this or lower for at least the next 5 to 10 yrs.

I had to wait 8yrs, so who knows.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

BBK - Monarch are a quality outfit in terms of t's and c's. Whether they can stand the long term heat in the kitchen alongside easyJet and Ryanair is open to debate. There is no doubt a bunch of easyJet guys were treated badly and left to go to Monarch. If they enjoy it then that is great - we all want people to have good and fulfilling careers. The problems they experienced, however, are to a large extent a thing of the past. The easyJet New Entrant Contract is there for everyone to see now - a year on probation effectively on 'pay per flying hour' and a temporary contract. Then it is £38k and nothing else for year two but on a permanent contract. After that it is £44k + sector pay for two years then finally £55k + sector pay. If that is not what you want then do not come to easyJet - no one can say they were not warned. Also, Monarch is a tiny airline in comparison with easyJet and therefore the hassle factor will always be there. We have around 17 bases across Europe and that means sometimes you have to work there - some see that as a selling point, but again if that is not what you want then do not come here! Most people (other than Trainers working in the sim away from home) do not do more than a couple of nightstops a month (I probably do 5 nightstops a year). Time to command is really hard to predict in any airline. If it is 4 years at Monarch then that is great. It is probably around that at easyJet now, but I can only see than increasing. We all know that getting a command is being in the right place at the right time - that is almost invariably impossible to predict when you join an airline. EasyJet has been fantastic for me, but I recognise that different people have had different experiences. I like the variety of destinations (100+ destinations from Gatwick), flying new aircraft, a predictable roster pattern, good maintenance and a great safety culture. The downside is that you will work seriously hard and over many years that definitely takes its toll. Overall, there is nowhere else I would rather be right now, but that is only one view.

[Reverb_SR71]

This may not be the best forum to ask this but i have noticed as i went through the Low cost carrier list and their fleets most of them operate a single fleet (understandable ) and Airbus A320-200s . My question is - is there an economic advantage of using the Airbus over the 737 ? recently especially in southeast asia its raining a320 orders . Does the A320 offer some advantages to low cost carriers ?

[A4]

SR,

Yes, the Airbus is a MUCH better aircraft.........:E:

[Greenlights]

is there an economic advantage of using the Airbus over the 737 ? recently especially in southeast asia its raining a320 orders . Does the A320 offer some advantages to low cost carriers ?

Boeing is cheaper about maintenance but not in consumption.
Airbus is generally a bit more expensive in maintenance but cheaper about consumption.
But let's face it. Boeing (such as 737) are archaic a/c.
Airbus is now and the futur. It's a VERY easy plane to fly. (and more confortable).
If one day pilotless a/c will be in service, then, I bet Airbus will do it in first.

[Greenlights]

SR,

Yes, the Airbus is a MUCH better aircraft.........



I flew both, personnally i prefer airbus. Not for flying, but for the CONFORT.
Nowadays, it's LCC in majority, so you fly more so you need confort.

[Reverb_SR71]

Boeing is cheaper about maintenance but not in consumption.

So A320 after sale maintenance is expensive but its more fuel efficient . . .

The A320 also happens to be comparatively expensive to buy.

As far as technology goes i understand that the fly-by-wireyness is all the rage these days but as a pilot i have to say it makes little difference.

Take off , set the Autopilot , both have great Fmcs and will maintain ANP of less than 1NM , get to the destination and do a manual landing ( or an autoland if you're lazy :E).

Also I think there are some sale/leaseback advantages to the a320s ,do the buses get a better deal while leasing back ? I know some LCCs make a chunk of their profits through sale / leasebacks .

[captplaystation]

Last time I checked the world biggest loco, and Europes biggest loco didn't use Airbus.

Way I have always heard from the engineering bods is that the Bus doesn't age very gracefully, and when it goes tech it goes seriously tech. . . but that is recounted with a bit of "Boeing Bias" on my part.


truckflyer, the current contract offered by ARPI is considerably better than offered by say Brookfield to pimp yourself to Ryanair, but it falls short of a "core contract " (IE the permanent employed by Norwegian contract ) in many respects.

dick byrne, don't know what I said to ruffle your feathers, I described it as it is, in that it will be "some sort" of permanent contract which will be offered after 2 years (if not extended as in the case of HEL base to 3 years ) how good or not it turns out to be ? well we will see come March. I was merely pointing out that what you claimed (below) in post # 15 was not entirely accurate.

And let's be fair a core contract in Norwegian( which is what's on offer if you want it after 2 years) is pretty good!


As I have a "core contract" I should be well aware of what is /may be missing with the forthcoming offers.

[box]

GermanWings!!!

[captplaystation]

And ? some numbers €/Off Days etc to help the audience decide.

I am guessing fluent German is a must, which will put off many of us "islanders" who frequent here . ;)

[Craggenmore]

Having survived 3 different CEO's in my time there, I would still say that EZY are the best. Super training that will hold you in great stead throughout your future flying career, by and large new planes to fly and nice people working there make for an enjoyable and professional day out. Even better for the BAYE and SAYE subscribers.

But best of all, you'll get your hours the quickest so you can leave the quickest if something far more relaxing is what you're really after. I didn't get into aviation for high speed 25-30 minute turnarounds and low speed .72 in the airways.

If EZY offer you the chance then take it. Long term, you might actually like it but God knows what that sort of schedule will do to you by retirement age.

[OPEN DES]

Schedule hard in EZY?
In 8 years never done more than 650h/yr. No more than 12 days flying a month normally.
Having said that: you have to choose your base carefully! Avoid the big bases and you'll be fine!

Correct me if I am wrong but Germanwings has very few 'core' pilots left. Most are flying under the KTV (i.e. Lufthansa pilots) under a slightly modified collective labour agreement whilst maintaining LH mainline seniority.

[PIOSEE]

If you are commuting from the UK to Ireland, Would you get home just as much with Jet2 as you would with FR/EZY for example?

[4Screwaircrew]

PIOSEE

Jet2 run a random roster so planning commutes is difficult, late finish prior to days off or leave, and the earliest possible start after days off is the norm.

[Derestrictor]

I was wondering when a comedian was going to mention Jet2.

[16024]

No need to worry. You wouldn't fit in.
Or maybe you didn't.....

[Bokkenrijder]

I completely agree with Craggenmore's assessment (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/531787-low-cost-carriers-who-best-2.html#post8265093) of EZY.

EZY is probably the best one out of the bunch, but I doubt that you want to do that for the rest of your life. Just get the hours and get out...if you can, because nowadays the only jobs seem to be in the low cost airlines.

People in their early '30's that now brag about earning 125k/year will probably be BEGGING the company for part time in say 10 years time. It's a total illusion that you can keep that up until you're 65! For the same reason that you do flex thrust take offs, and just like TOGA has a 5/10 minute limit on it, you can't work on 'TOGA' your entire life! These kids have no idea yet how aviation will wear you out by the time you hit >40 and it would be interesting to see what a person looks like who has worked his entire career, full time (!), for a low cost airline.

However, if you play it smart, live modestly and invest those 125k wisely by paying off debt and/or for example buying property which generates rent income, then perhaps the low cost route can work out for some individuals. Having another source of income will allow you to 'throttle back' by the time you hit 40. Nevertheless, when I was in EZY, I only saw dumb spoiled kids (not only from rich parents but also with blue collar background) who squandered it all on fast cars, gadgets with a fruit logo on it and expensive girlfriends with a craving for handbags and shoes with a certain logo on it.
Another stumbling block is that most companies generally are very reluctant to give you part time. They rather have you worn out which is something that motivates you to leave, which then makes room for a cheaper person to take your place. It's a win-win scenario for the airlines, and since >40 it will be hard for you to leave, you'll find yourself stuck/trapped in a golden cage: cumulatively worn out, yet working full time earning 125k with nowhere to run. Great... :uhoh:

IMHO it's not the block hours that will wear you out, but it's the relentless pressure of those quick turn arounds, the short flights (never really being able to have a breather and for instance eat your meal in peace and quiet), the constant noise day in day out, and constantly going from earlies to lates. It's all cumulative, something you will realize quickly once you've left the low cost business behind and start working for a company where maybe...just very maybe, you'll survive both mentally and physically long enough till the day you retire. ;)

[Alexander de Meerkat]

In some ways the question in the title is largely spurious. It does not really matter who is the best - it only really matters who you can get a job with. Very few people have a genuine choice between easyJet, Ryanair, Germany Wings, Jet2 or Monarch. The best someone often has is a choice between leaving one and joining the other. In most cases people are just desperate for jobs and are only in the running for one company or the other, and whatever job they get offered they grab gratefully with both hands.

Regarding the long-term picture, I think I agree with our easyJet 'Alumnae' in the form of Craggenmore and Bokkenrijder. They have both flown for what is arguably the most reasonable of the low cost carriers, and the one for whom I still work - easyJet. I think that the cumulative effect is fundamentally negative, even though I always enjoy my job. There is so much that is good about working for easyJet, but if I was flying the line (particularly at a big base like Gatwick), the hassle factor is enormous over a long period of time. Every now and again is fine but five earlies is killing for most people over any length of time. As has been suggested, to do a whole career without going part-time would be difficult. EasyJet works for me, but I live half-way between the sim and the airport and get home every night. I am not counting the days until I retire but if I see a couple of standbys on my roster I am far from disappointed! Due to ageing relatives and kids married here in the UK, the sandpit is not a practical option for me at the moment. I am therefore of the view that I am a lucky man to be working for easyJet and cannot fault it. I do, however, think that a career in aviation is hard work for anyone - regardless of who you work for. The low cost carriers are even tougher places to be, but are the only option for many people. In terms of job security, remuneration, safety standards, training quality and so on easyJet would be very hard to beat. To fly full-time for 20 years, however, would be a big ask. I have unwittingly followed Bokkenrijder's advice and been financially cautious in order that I am not beholden to anyone in my later years - that would strike me as wise. You will always have your numpties who live beyond their means, but most people are sufficiently sensible to prepare for the future. Whether it is a million times better in Emirates or whatever I really do not know. I suspect there are frustrations working there too - there is no Air Utopia out there that I can see.