How low can you go?

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Well, that last long haul must have been extra boring, as it got me to venture into the 'Lifestyle' section of the SCMP.

On the way to the strips and sudoku, I stumbled onto this little gem, sitting high in an otherwise pedestrian level blab about the vagaries of life in Saikung I suppose, I didn't read it much past that.

"Hong Kong city dwellers tend to have a bucolic notion of Sai Kung as being populated by unsophisticated folk: farmers, fishermen, Cathay Pacific pilots, and the like."

Cosmopolitan Sai Kung has acquired a taste for an exotic range of food | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/food-wine/article/1401562/cosmopolitan-sai-kung-has-acquired-taste-exotic-range-food)

Now, I'm puzzled. What are you guys doing up there to merit yourselves such a reputation among the localites that even gweilo writers of garden variety frivolous fluff are peering at you from high in a golden tower?

I won't dare imagine where that leaves the DB uniform wearing crowd...?

Or is that somebody's ex?

[Yeager]

OMFG,

Who reads the corrupted SCMP and takes it serious for anything. I'm not gonna defend Cathay Pathetic pilot's - but who God dams cares what a bunch of goons, tugs and oxygen thieves thinks. Hong Kong is a society full of self important banker wankers and humans looking forward to pension. Nobody with the love of life would live in this place if it was not because they had no other choice or because money is more important than life.

In general (and even among CX) pilots have more fun, than the average Joe, going to work in some **** office, thinking he/she/it is doing an important job, kidding himself.

Dude's enjoy life - and hasta la vista amigos.. :ok:

[Yeager]

If you are referring to me, then, NO. What's the point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK4VRS07ees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6BVvYyc82c

spot the difference!

[Yeager]

What's a riddle? my English's only level 6 and I'm not in the mood for Googly, Googly. Don't be such a Cathay sophisticated bloke mate, speak up and out :ok: Don't hide behind the curtain's :p

[CodyBlade]

And on the "unsophisticated" league table what pos are Gweilo journos?

and btw why don't you get a serious job?

[Threethirty]

Hong Kong is a haven for banker wankers. Anywhere else in the world the pilot profession is respected. However, in a city where wealth, materialism and status are championed; the worst people in society are put on a pedestal.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Well... What's the definition of sophisticated?

How many pilots do you know who :

- read novels , not a Biker magazine or combat history book

- watch real movies, IFE and latest Pixar DVD with the family don't count

-listen ( Radio 4 anyone? )

-talk ( e.g. a real political discussion that does not end after 2 min on how useless all politicians ( hardcore right wing hawks excluded) ,minorities, banker and airline manager are

- have interests outside of the world of aviation, bbq's and sports.
Arts , theatre, opera or music anyone? ( Lion King musical with the missus excluded)

Not saying they don't exist AND not saying it is necessary or superior to have these other interests, but I frankly havent met too many in my 15 years in this profession who I would describe at exactly sophisticated..

[Captain Dart]

Maybe that's why the new 'Director People' was appointed Director Flight Operations for a few years; as a zoologist by training, he was accustomed to working with pond scum.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Thanks to Yeager for aptly illustrating what the journalist was talking about.

How many pilots do you know who :

Right. As opposed to the fancy HK 'elite' who pretend to be interested in all of that because they artificially want to project an elaborate and tasteful image of themselves while playing candy crush at every occasion on their phone?

but I frankly havent met too many in my 15 years in this profession who I would describe at exactly sophisticated..

Thank God, neither have I. And come to think of it, I haven't met anyone in HK like that who wasn't just pretending out of social pressure.
If there is one place in the world, apart from California, where money doesn't mean class and sophistication, the fragrant harbour is it.

Though I have met plenty of nice, fun and very bright people I am happy to relate to as coworker. Regardless what movies they watch.

[ByAirMail]

CX pilots have only themselves to blame for their reputation in Hong Kong. In the 80's and early 90's they thought they were the rock stars of Hong Kong. Outbidding everybody on a property deal with their huge allowances at the time, most yachts in the marinas owned by the CX pilots, at boat shows they got V.I.P. invites. Expensive cars was a must. Their small town wives became prima dona's demanding first class only.

CX pilots attracted a lot of attention to themselves, and under scrutiny they were not any better then their equals working anywhere else in the world for much less and with more dignity.

[nitpicker330]

What a load of rubbish, spoken by someone with a huge chip on each shoulder!!

( no I'm not an A scaler either )

[Captain Dart]

Hmm... so you are one of those responsible for driving down our A Scale 'rock star' conditions of service then!

[gleneagles]

CX pilots have only themselves to blame for their reputation in Hong Kong. In the 80's and early 90's they thought they were the rock stars of Hong Kong. Outbidding everybody on a property deal with their huge allowances at the time, most yachts in the marinas owned by the CX pilots, at boat shows they got V.I.P. invites. Expensive cars was a must. Their small town wives became prima dona's demanding first class only.

CX pilots attracted a lot of attention to themselves, and under scrutiny they were not any better then their equals working anywhere else in the world for much less and with more dignity.

Very, very true. Those blokes as well as many now...hoisted well above their station. Baboons masquerading as genteels.;)

[ByAirMail]

Nitpicker 330, a chip on each shoulder? That should make me balanced then.


Capt Dart. I never had a problem, why would I, with the salaries of any group at any time, good for them and the industry. It was the arrogance and behavior of some in Hong Kong during this golden age that led to the general public forming a negative opinion of CX pilots. Just like the bankers is doing in the 2000's.

That air of arrogance is still prevalent in the street at CX City, and here on the Fragrant Harbour Forum.

[Arfur Dent]

Were you in CX in the '80's then?
If not, you are simply repeating hearsay and nonsense. We weren't arrogant, we were just well paid, respected and good at getting in and out of one of the most difficult airports in the world. We pioneered ULH and had one of the highest aircraft utilisations of the 747 on the planet. Sickness was pretty much zero.
One offshoot of being well paid is that you live in nice houses, drive fast cars and share yachts. What's wrong with that?
We had spirit and would turn up for work to help out at the drop of a hat. Directors of the Company were our friends, the DFO invited us to his house, we could go and chat to the MD/Chairman before heading off on leave. We were a hell of a lot more than 'tolerated' as we are now.
Nothing to do with Bankers and the fraud they perpetrated - nothing at all.
Anyway, if you weren't there, perhaps you should hold your council and not further degrade your profession by spouting rubbish.

[ByAirMail]

Very valid argument Arfur Dent. So where does this public opinion of CX pilots come from? I don't have the book with me at the moment, but, according to "The 49ers" did CX senior management not themselves refer to the pilots as Moron-airs , or some similar name? What was this statement from management based on?
I have neighbors, some exec's in Telecom and broadcasting, giving me many an example why they did not respect the " you need us because you can't do it" attitude. Yes, they had entitlements, but it's about attitudes and behavior that form public opinion.

[chest rockwel]

Some very eye opening posts here, I'm here in the fragrant harbour a short year now and have had enough. Excessive greed and terrible air quality in a suffocating environment :ok:

People go on about how good the lifestyle is, compared to what exactly? the mainland? Even a superstar salary/pension in waiting wouldn't keep me in 'the harbour'.

[Beta Light]

Arthur Dent, seems you'r living in bit of an aviation bubble i you think flying into Kai Tak and "inventing long haul" is unique and worthy of special treatments.
While you were flying I.L.S's, some was doing non precision approaches with the same equipment, on a daily base. While calculating your long haul hours, some of us was going into uncontrolled airfields at night, landing on very limited fields.

If going into Kai Tak and long haul is the pinnacle of aviation in the 70's and 80's to you, you have truly been in the bubble.

It's not a hit at the salaries, but thinking you are a rock star flying into Hong Kong, only fooled the public for a short while.

[Arfur Dent]

Wise words again from someone who, I suspect, wasn't there either. We all did our NDB's and uncontrolled airfields before we came to CX and joined a proper airline flying the big jets and doing it well. If you suggest that the IGS was 'flying ILS's' -especially just after a typhoon, then you too are simply showing your ignorance.
Nothing about being a rock star - just doing a job well and getting a top salary and a bit of old fashioned respect from our Employer.
How times have changed.................:sad:

[AnAmusedReader]

Well said Arfur. Some of us was (sic) doing as you say.

[PanZa-Lead]

I agree with Artfur. Just because Airmail's neighbour didn't like pilots in the 80's means nothing and as for Beta I wouldn't even bother responding to him if i was you Arfur as he was clearly not in Cathay or even in HK in those days. Cathay and her pilots in the 80's and early 90's were well respected in the world of aviation and every experienced pilot world wide wanted to come here. Cathay could pick and choose the best and they did..it was hard to get in and those that did were proud..not arrogant…proud and just because we walked around with our heads up didn't mean we were bad people. If you speak to the Bankers and Lawyers they have fond regard for the older CX pilots and total disregard for the loud mouthed, low time (I have flown and NDB) pilots that sit in LKF and Soho telling everyone they are CX pilots in their loudest voices. These are the people undermining our professional status in HK….

Fire away…..

[Captain Dart]

So how many carrier landings have you got, Beta (day and night)?

[nitpicker330]

Beta-----yes I can see how landing a 737 at 130kts straight in to a 6000' runway at night would be harder than landing a 747 at 280 odd tonnes with a VRef of 160kts at night in a Typhoon doing a 47 deg right turn onto final during gusty bumpy conditions just above the roof tops. :D

Don't knock it till you try it......oh that's right you can't anymore!!

Believe me, nothing got your Heart rate higher than those ****ty IGS approaches and I've done quite a few IGS's and NDB's at night in F50's 737's 777's and 744's. Some of those NDB's were done in Asia at night with Ts around in 737-200's with no GPS/Area Nav system fitted.

[Steve the Pirate]

Flying inverted at 100'/500 knots over Nevadan Ridge Lines whilst a few Vipers were up my ar&$@ gave me a certain kick too.

And I'll bet you were saying to those Vipers, "Catch me if you can" :E

Also Frank, it's very apt that your post is here, on the "How low can you go" thread.

STP

[nitpicker330]

If we all had the training, dollars and fancy equipment you guys did in the Military we too would be hot ****......however some of us paid to fly ourselves.

I bow to your Top Gun holiness :p

[raven11]

Frank…

You and Arfur are on the same side in this discussion. The bad guys are the wieners at the SCMP and the office types who hold deep feelings of resentment towards pilots, and feel the need to put pilots down in order to lift themselves up. We all know the type….we’ve met them at social functions. They tell you that they wanted to be a pilot at some stage in their lives but didn’t make it for some reason or another. So now....some of them act out aggressively towards those that stir those deep-seated feelings of resentment.

I have done my share of yanking and banking in the military, and I flew many IGS approaches into Kai Tak. I hold both experiences in fond regard.

I remember when I did my probation check with Keith Thompson and during the IGS, in basically normal conditions, I delayed the turn onto final a bit longer than I should have. The turn required about 40 degrees of bank to complete, and I probably pulled all of about 1.5G to line up with the runway. It worked out beautifully, and I have to say, it felt great! Every bit as good as when I used to throw the airplane around in my previous air force life. Keith Thompson was not an easy guy to please, a man from a previous era, but he patted me on the back and said “well done”. I felt ten feet tall!

Your clip above on the landing into Kai Tak brought back that feeling…..thanks.

Let’s direct our fire at those wieners I mentioned at the beginning of my post and not at each other.

[Arfur Dent]

Brilliant, Raven and thank you Sir. Most of the early CX boys had done their fair share of pulling 'G' and special ops. That was our past and CX is our future, no more-no less. I was once congratulated on a difficult IGS too - equal to a DH on the range any day!!
By the way - you guys are still good and should be respected for it - that's all we ask really.
Do your job as well as you can using the Company's rules - no more - no less.
ie Comply with your contract. :ok::ok:
By the way Frank
AWESOME!

[nitpicker330]

Nice video of the IGS but the weather in the video wasn't too bad.
It got a LOT worse than that light rain.

Anyway back to thread....

[Booger]

I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!!

[cxorcist]

WE'RE YELLING BECAUSE WE'RE ANGRY.

WE'RE ANGRY BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A LIFE.

That's why we're all on PPrune arguing about the good old days...

[Killaroo]

I never did an IGS into Kai Tak. But was it any more difficult than a Canarsie in JFK? The Canarsie is non precision. You don't have precision guidance down to the turn. You can screw up a Canarsie very easily - although you won't hit a mountain if you do it wrong, that's all.

[Toe Knee Tiler]

Dear Chaps,

While all of this unnecessary squabbling is going on, about who is the best and who can do the most challenging feats, has anyone discovered whether Robin Lynam, of the SCMP , who wrote the article can be taken at the highest level for defamation of the character of Cathay Pacific Pilots.

TKT

[Steve the Pirate]

Not so sure about defamation, especially when there's more than a grain of truth in the observation. The following sums it up on so many levels :)

The Life of Brian - Big Nose - YouTube

STP

[Shutterbug]

Skipping the imbecility, I think Arfur raises a valid point. But I just see it as an economy of scale issue. Back in the day Cathay was a small, quality outfit. Whether a result of deliberate strategic vision, evolutionary necessity, or pure stupidity, Swire decided to transform Cathay from a high quality premium brand into a mass market sausage factory, with all the ensuing consequences. My personal guess it was a Darwinian inevitability exacerbating strategic imbecility... but I'm a cynic.