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Fareastdriver
11th Jan 2014, 11:54
Ariel Sharon died today after being in a coma for eight years. Whatever you think of his politics being Prime Minister of Israel must be one of the most difficult jobs in the world.

BBC News - Israel's ex-PM Ariel Sharon dies, aged 85 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25696601)

airship
11th Jan 2014, 12:47
Oh what the heck?! I'll probably (but hopefully live to) regret this...

Mr. Sharon held in an artificial coma and "vegetative state" for the past 8 years since 2006. Mr. Arafat dying under mysterious circumstances 2 years before that. These 2 giants who together might have found an enduring solution in Israel / Palestine, given the opportunity. Only they were not...

There are just too many vested interests in maintaining the status-quo. Always have been, always will be. I do dare to say that we're talking about "Biblical" time-tables: "Verily I say unto you, the Dead Sea will rise once again. The creatures of the sea will once again populate its' waters, even allowing simple prophets and their followers to fill their nets and feed 5,000." By which time, Man-kind will have presumably already built moon-bases, Mars-bases and found a way to travel faster than light towards other stars... :uhoh:

crewmeal
11th Jan 2014, 15:08
Another leader with blood on his hands. Whatever anyone says he was the instigator of stealing Palestine Territories.

Capetonian
11th Jan 2014, 15:26
A very difficult job indeed. As a warmonger, he was responsible for much of the misery inflicted on the Arabs and Palestinians in and around Israel. That said, they are not blameless either and it is an impossible situation to which there will never be resolution.

perantau
11th Jan 2014, 15:43
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... fire to fire.

Mr Chips
11th Jan 2014, 17:00
yes, he was a convicted terrorist,but once released

oh,wait, that was the one who got loads of airtime for his death and funeral...

My mistake.

Low Flier
11th Jan 2014, 17:04
Just another war criminal who evaded Justice for the rest of his life.

It's so ironic there's more of those bastards in Israel than in Germany.

Low Flier
11th Jan 2014, 17:57
Hint:

The Germans gave up committing war crimes and other crimes against humanity 68 years ago. The Israeli terrorists were only just getting started then.

Capot
11th Jan 2014, 19:51
We can only rejoice that the ex-terrorist so deservedly known as the Butcher of Shatila has finally met his timely end.

What a pity that he has so many successors in his image.

Matari
11th Jan 2014, 20:01
Was there any doubt about the course this thread would take?

rotornut
11th Jan 2014, 20:58
Here's what Human Rights Watch had to say about him: Israel: Ariel Sharon?s Troubling Legacy | Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/11/israel-ariel-sharon-s-troubling-legacy)

Bronx
11th Jan 2014, 21:53
Was there any doubt about the course this thread would take?

I had no doubt the usual neo-cons and/or pro-Zionists would arrive, but thought it would be later given the time zones.


B.

radeng
11th Jan 2014, 22:20
the pity is that he didn't die 50 years ago.....

Low Flier
11th Jan 2014, 23:22
Make that 61 years ago.

The bastard had form that goes waaay back.

His most notorious massacre in the 1950s was probably the mass murder of five dozen Arab civilians, most of them women and children, in the village of Qibya. Even the Americans thought that one was a bit much.

His evil gang went on to murder four score and more Jordanians and Palestinians at Qalqilya in 1956, among several other comparable atrocities.

In the operation which we simply know as "Suez", he and his murderous gang of thugs massacred hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war and Sudanese civilian gastarbeiters and bulldozed the bodies into mass graves.

A very nasty piece of work, long before Sabra and Chatilla.

Hugely popular with the Zionists of course, but that's the way those people are.

obgraham
12th Jan 2014, 00:10
Well at least his final death gives the Jew haters the opportunity to spew one more time.

Funny how silent the same folks were about the earlier exploits of another recently deceased former terrorist.

parabellum
12th Jan 2014, 00:51
Careful Caco, that's how you get yourself banned! Delete while you still can!


interesting that the Sharon haters, fail to mention the gangs of Palestinian youth who were rounded up after 1948 and sent to Bulgaria and Russia for 'indoctrination' then came back to Israel, not to murder the Israelis but to intimidate and murder fellow Palestinians who did not pack up and go into exile - one mayor was beheaded in front of the village because he said they could live side by side with the Israelis and didn't need to move, plenty of other cases too.


crewmeal - stealing Palestine Territories. Don't forget that many, many legitimate land owners in Palestine, whose land was often rented out or simply squatted, sold out to Israelis and now, being very, very rich, moved out, often not bothering to tell their tenants! Much of what you and others refer to as 'stolen' is, in fact, legally owned by Israelis.

unstable load
12th Jan 2014, 06:13
Don't forget that many, many legitimate land owners in Palestine, whose land was often rented out or simply squatted, sold out to Israelis and now, being very, very rich, moved out, often not bothering to tell their tenants! Much of what you and others refer to as 'stolen' is, in fact, legally owned by Israelis.
A very inconvenient truth, these days.......

Capetonian
12th Jan 2014, 06:37
Anti Zionist - I am
Anti Israeli terrorism - I am
Jew Hater/Anti-Semitic - I am not.

This is something many people need to understand. Condemning a murdering terrorist, Sharon in this case, does not make someone 'anti-Semitic' or a 'Jew hater'. Also worth bearing in mind for those who pull out the 'anti Semite' card so freely is that Arabs are Semitic people, speaking a language closely related to Hebrew and ethnically similar.

Robert Cooper
12th Jan 2014, 07:23
You can say what you like about Sharon, but during his military career, he was considered the greatest field commander in Israel's history, and one of the country's greatest ever military strategists.

During the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Sharon earned the nickname "The Lion of God" among Israelis for surrounding Egypt's Third Army and, defying orders, leading 200 tanks and 5,000 men across the Suez Canal -- roughly 100 miles from Cairo.

Bob C

rh200
12th Jan 2014, 07:25
You are free to put an alternative view

Great man who did great things for his country. Hope he has a state funeral and we send someone important to it as a gesture of respect.

John Hill
12th Jan 2014, 08:01
"Sharon, a man of peace"
...George W Bush.

I think that says it all...:rolleyes:

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
12th Jan 2014, 09:31
Sharon of course presided over the massacres at Sabra and Shatila. He was, to all intents and purposes an elected terrorist.

bcgallacher
12th Jan 2014, 09:38
I am no supporter of Israel but we should never forget that it was fellow Arabs that committed the atrocities at Shattila - not Israelis.As far as atrocities go the saintly Palestinians take some beating - Munich Olympics,Lod - need I go on?

Capetonian
12th Jan 2014, 09:40
He was, to all intents and purposes an elected terrorist.
Like Robert Mugabe, the difference being that the elections in Zimbabwe were rigged, but then I suspect that those in Israel were too, in a different way, in that there would have been a restricted electorate, who would naturally have voted for warmonger Sharon.

rh200
12th Jan 2014, 10:41
Like Robert Mugabe

Like Mandela

Low Flier
12th Jan 2014, 10:53
You can say what you like about Sharon

Thankyou. I will.

He was a monstrous mass murderer. A war criminal of enormous proportions. He was an unrepentant criminal, all the way to his unfortunate demise at the moment of his stroke.

he was considered the greatest field commander in Israel's history

And Goering was a brilliant squadron commander. Many Nazi commanders were. That still doesn't alter, even by one iota, the fact that he was a war criminal.


Sharon earned the nickname "The Lion of God" among Israelis for surrounding Egypt's Third Army and, defying orders, leading 200 tanks and 5,000 men across the Suez Canal

The Zionist goal is to expand Israel's borders to extend from the Nile to the Euphrates. He went that extra mile. No wonder the Zionists lionise him.

The surprising thing is that some otherwise more or less law-abiding Israelis and their American sponsors tolerate(d) a mass murderer and a war criminal in their own midst.

Low Flier
12th Jan 2014, 10:59
This is something many people need to understand. Condemning a murdering terrorist, Sharon in this case, does not make someone 'anti-Semitic' or a 'Jew hater'. Also worth bearing in mind for those who pull out the 'anti Semite' card so freely is that Arabs are Semitic people, speaking a language closely related to Hebrew and ethnically similar.

Well said, that man! http://www10.pic-upload.de/05.03.12/ohv4tsjb2rbc.gif

chuks
12th Jan 2014, 11:56
It's perfectly possible to be an anti-Semite, meaning a "Jew-hater," without being against other peoples named as "Semitic." That's one of the very favorite "get out of jail free" cards often played by anti-Semites, in fact. What should we make of some of the hate tirades uttered by Arabs, then? Not anti-Semitic, are they, given that they are Semites? Oh yes they are, the Arabs, very good at Jew-hating, since it's one way to avoid looking at their own obvious failings!

On the other hand, to get into a bit of a bate about Sharon ... that might not be an unreasonable thing to do; the guy really was a bit of a thug, and never mind what sort of soldier he was. Otherwise, perhaps we should worship Erich Rudel for his military prowess and ignore that he was a really huge Nazi. I think that his move to build-build-build in the territories Israel captured post- Six Days War was not just illegal but quite stupid, and something that shall cause Israel a lot of bother in future.

Matari
12th Jan 2014, 13:24
Yet one side produced a vibrant, free market economy with vocal opposition, gay pride parades, empowered women, free press, freedom of religion, and some of the greatest scientists and musicians in the world.

The other side embraces 7th century pathologies, and produces suicide bombers, one-party rule, and a ranting, bearded George Galloway.

ATNotts
12th Jan 2014, 14:23
Absolutely impossible - the Americans supported him to the hilt, so clearly he couldn't be a terrorist!

Americans only support the good guys - don't they?

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
12th Jan 2014, 14:45
The other side embraces 7th century pathologies, and produces suicide bombers, one-party rule, and a ranting, bearded George Galloway.

Last time I looked Hamas won the election in the Gaza Strip and Fatah won the election in the West Bank observed by UN officials. Hardly one party rule.

scr1
12th Jan 2014, 15:23
I wonder how many of the Israeli haters on here have actually been their???

pigboat
12th Jan 2014, 15:28
On the other hand, to get into a bit of a bate about Sharon ... that might not be an unreasonable thing to do; the guy really was a bit of a thug,
Perfectly understandable, given the neighbourhood.

RatherBeFlying
12th Jan 2014, 17:08
It's a nasty neighborhood and certain Zios are just as happy to dip their hands in blood as the original inhabitants, many of whom have much closer genetic links to the biblical population.

The Zios would have done so much better to set up shop in Arizona. The dosh saved on security measures would fund annual pilgrimages to Israel and the locals would welcome the business and outdo themselves building vacation condos;)

Israel's big problem is in the long term. At some point in time, something's gonna give. Turning off the US money tap could bring the whole thing down.

chuks
12th Jan 2014, 17:31
Yes, and I think that Sharon will be seen much later to have contributed to Israel's difficulties by his policies when in power. What makes one a very successful soldier does not necessarily make one a very successful politician.

One of the biggest future problems Israel faces, aside from ensuring its mere survival, is "how to remain a democracy" while enfranchising all those people from the West Bank, or "Judea and Samaria" as the Israeli far-right have that. It might have been a far wiser thing to do, to just leave them to Jordan to sort out. "Black September," anyone?

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
12th Jan 2014, 18:29
If Sharon had not pressed on ignoring orders, at the end of the 6 day war, taking large swathes of Palestinian territory, the conflict with the Palestinians would not have followed the course it has done.

He has a great deal to answer for. It will be interesting to see how history judges him.

radeng
12th Jan 2014, 20:07
Just a question.....

Do the Zionist/Israeli protagonists support the activities in the late 1940s of the Hagganah and the Irgun? And the bombing of the King David hotel?

parabellum
12th Jan 2014, 20:54
If Sharon had not pressed on ignoring orders, at the end of the 7 day war, taking large swathes of Palestinian territory, the conflict with the Palestinians would not have followed the course it has done.

He has a great deal to answer for. It will be interesting to see how history judges him.


Sorry, doesn't wash. At Camp David, the PLO, led by Yasser Arafat, were offered over 90% of what they wanted as a settlement, not a bad compromise, don't you think, given that both Palestinians and Israelis have a God given right to exist? No, the PLO rejected the deal and opted to carry on their terrorism, peace was the last thing they wanted, why set yourself the task of running a country, building an economy and all else that goes with running a civilised system, much easier to maintain a state of war and accept massive financial hand-outs from both within and without the Arab world, syphon off indecent amounts for personal use and keep blowing up busses and coffee shops, dress your toddlers in military style uniforms and teach them hate almost from the moment they can walk.


Do the Zionist/Israeli protagonists support the activities in the late 1940s of the Hagganah and the Irgun? And the bombing of the King David hotel?


No Radeng, any more than I support the IRA, but overall the Irish aren't a bad bunch!

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
12th Jan 2014, 20:59
I'm afraid it does wash parabellum.

The land was taken at the end of the 6 day war, long before Camp David.

obgraham
12th Jan 2014, 22:55
If Sharon had not pressed on ignoring orders, at the end of the 6 day war, taking large swathes of Palestinian territory, the conflict with the Palestinians would not have followed the course it has done.
No, it would not. The Israelis would be on the floor of the Mediterranean Sea.

Moreover, there was no Palestine in 1967. The war was fought against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. But you prefer the revisionist version.

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
12th Jan 2014, 23:26
The war had already been won.

parabellum
12th Jan 2014, 23:47
You really are out of date Lima, A or J. The return of large areas of captured lands, (captured in a war the Israelis did not start), was a part of the Camp David settlement.

cattletruck
13th Jan 2014, 05:44
Ijuts

http://assets.amuniversal.com/63c08b205a30013163b6001dd8b71c47

crewmeal
13th Jan 2014, 06:43
I've seen it all now Blair is there in the crowd wearing a skull cap at this character's funeral. A clip shown on Sky if anyone is following it.

Andy_S
13th Jan 2014, 07:31
One thing no one has mentioned is that Sharon apparently moderated his politics before his stroke. He left Likud, founded the more centrist Kadima, and by all accounts had little enthusiasm for expanding settlements in the West Bank. Was this for real, or just political calculation? I donít know, but I wonder what might have been.....

Capetonian
13th Jan 2014, 10:30
I wish I hadn't .... but I just caught sight of phoney Tony, kitted out in black suit and skullcap at this old terrorist's funeral. Vomiting out the usual sycophantic guff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/content/images/2005/01/12/puke_logo_203_203x152.jpg

jcjeant
13th Jan 2014, 12:35
Hi,

It is to recall that in the Israeli constitution the word border is never mentioned :rolleyes:
So whether they are Israeli are still home :ok:

rgbrock1
13th Jan 2014, 14:08
I certainly do not make it a point to question the behaviors of someone elses' head of state or former head of state as I usually consider it none of my business. However, after seeing the shot of Mr. Blair with the beanie on his head I really do have to question whether the man has any sense of shame whatsoever.

4mastacker
13th Jan 2014, 15:51
...I really do have to question whether the man has any sense of shame whatsoever.

Of course not! Have you seen his wife??

obgraham
13th Jan 2014, 16:24
Hate on whoever you like, but I guess none of you have attended a Jewish funeral service. Traditionally male attendees wear a yarmulke, and most non-Jewish men also do, to show respect.

Matari
13th Jan 2014, 17:19
Same with weddings.

Sharon, for all his faults, fought to create a land that allowed protests, public demonstrations, and vocal discussion of its imperfections.

Not the same for Saddam, Ghaddafi, Assad, and the rest of the Arab tyrants.

I.R.PIRATE
13th Jan 2014, 17:38
Sadly these days its not history who gets to judge.

Its the vociferous masses, normally those with the least to offer who leave the lasting impression.

AtomKraft
13th Jan 2014, 17:57
A guy like Sharon (or Arafat) is either part of the solution or part of the problem.

I don't think even the most benevolent of historians would claim either was part of the solution. Certainly not Sharon.

piperboy84
13th Jan 2014, 18:03
Sharon, for all his faults, fought to create a land that allowed protests, public demonstrations, and vocal discussion of its imperfections

Yes you right to a certain degree but some citizens can demonstrate both peacefully and violently and get treated with kid gloves, a nod and a wink while others protesting peacefully get shot dead entirely based on ones religious beliefs, not much of a democracy that.

Ten years later, no justice for October 2000 killings | The Electronic Intifada (http://electronicintifada.net/content/ten-years-later-no-justice-october-2000-killings/9065)

El Grifo
13th Jan 2014, 18:49
Wondering why the Blair was sporting a Kippah at today's ceremonies.

Is he of that ilk ??

El G.

parabellum
13th Jan 2014, 22:31
Don't think so Grif, see posts 55 and 56 above.

pigboat
14th Jan 2014, 01:58
"Oh shit, he is even dumber than I thought"

Says the guy wearing a dress. ;)

Low Flier
14th Jan 2014, 07:15
I think it's what they call a facepsalm.

ORAC
14th Jan 2014, 10:11
Sharon of course presided over the massacres at Sabra and Shatila. He was, to all intents and purposes an elected terrorist.

A nasty little lie from the Guardian about Ariel Sharon and Sabra/Shatila massacre (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4602/a_nasty_little_lie_from_the_guardian_about_ariel_sharon_and_ sabra_shatila_massacre)

Blacksheep
14th Jan 2014, 12:51
Ariel Sharon was however, responsible for the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the occupation of the capital. An invasion that was about as legal as our own invasion of Iraq and which had similar objectives of regime change. The Christian Phalangists who committed the massacres were - at least nominally - under Israeli army control. That such an ill-advised, ill-considered alliance had been permitted was the reason why Sharon was held partly responsible and was the reason for his resignation. He should have prohibited the arrangement - and as Defence Minister there is no way he could not have known about it.

pigboat
14th Jan 2014, 16:00
Leaving Gaza was Ariel Sharon's masterstroke. (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/01/13/jonathan-kay-leaving-gaza-was-ariel-sharons-masterstroke/)