The way we were - Ansett, TAA, Qantas

[Ngineer]

I remember sitting in the back of cattle class smoking a pack of Winfield blue from Sydney to LA, then getting off the flight to a cold Bud. I don't know how the poor staff tolerated the smoke. I don't know how I did either.

[airsupport]

AHHH, The Smoke.

That brings back memories too of ''the way we were'', smoking on aircraft, something that was later stopped.

Whatever you think of smoking I actually missed it after it was banned, NOT from having to inhale it when flying, but as an Engineer.

Why? :confused:

On more than one occasion back then it helped us troubleshoot problems, when looking for pressurisation leaks. ;)

[Nkosi]

In the days of smoking allowed on aircraft one of the least favorable jobs was to clean or trouble shoot an outflow valve problem. The sticky, nicotine created, goo was horrible, and I used to smoke then too! Gave it away in 1990 though.

[airsupport]

In the days of smoking allowed on aircraft one of the least favorable jobs was to clean or trouble shoot an outflow valve problem. The sticky, nicotine created, goo was horrible

Okay, I had forgotten about that, maybe I wanted to. :uhoh:

It was though as I was saying very helpful sometimes with pressurisation problems, made it so much easier to find leaks, all the loose rivets or even small cracks in the skin of the aircraft. :ok:

[Paragraph377]

China Airlines Flight 611 crash back in 2002. The aircraft broke apart mid air due to an incorrect repair that was done a few decades earlier after a tail strike. Investigators found nicotine stains outside of the doubler plate repair patch, eventually this helped to identify a faulty repair as the root cause of the accident.
Who would have thought that cigarette smoke could help in an accident investigation?

[airsupport]

Of course cigarette smoke was not the only human added thing that caused problems back in the olde days, hopefully not now.

Way back in the 1960s when I was an Ansett Apprentice and in heavy maintenance at the time we were the first Airline in the World to have to do a complete overhaul on our 727s, and we had all sorts of people out here from Boeing to assist etc.

I was on the engine crew at the time, so once we had the engines and APU out, we assisted with the airframe, mainly on section 48, couldn't believe all the tools we found at the bottom of it, riveting tools mainly that had obviously been dropped when building the aircraft and left there.

Myself and another Apprentice were given the very long and boring job of checking the bolts securing section 48 to section 46, a ring of bolts right around the circumference of the fuselage, until we found EVERY bolt we checked below floor level was VERY badly corroded and our boring job suddenly became VERY important, the Boeing people were concerned that IF our aircraft were typical of the 727 fleet in general, there was a strong possibility 727s MAY actually LOSE their whole section 48 in flight, that is the whole tail including all 3 engines. :eek:

Boeing determined that the problem was not foreseen earlier, and was caused by ''urine'' leaking from the rear toilets and reacting with the dissimilar metals of the bolts and the structure.

[oicur12.again]

Does anybody know where a set of Ansett wings can be obtained? Ex employee with a spare set or a memorabilia outfit maybe?

Regards.

[nitpicker330]

Flarose - Ansett Australia Merchandise (http://www.flarose.com.au)

[601]

Ansett wings
727, DC9 or to fit other aircraft type?

[nitpicker330]

601---- you forgot the sarcastic smily face...:E

[oicur12.again]

601, A320 mate. Got a fuselage and motors sitting here ready to start service but somethings missing.

Sorry, shirt wings.

Nitpicker, thanks, just contacted them and it turns out they have them in stock.

Which is kind of weird really.......

[Mister Warning]

Who else keeps their old wings in their sock drawer?

[Captain Dart]

I don't. My AN wings are in full view, among others, stuck on a plaque (you can get blank plaques in trophy shops). Pre- 'that year' ones of course. Most 'memorabilia' on sale these days seems to be post-'war' stuff.

And now, one of Australia's airlines is named after a person who hasn't had sex, another is rated 'One Star', and QANTAS is looking dodgy. Who'd 'a thunk it?

[training wheels]

And what happened to IPEC? I remember vaguely they had a couple DC9s and Argosy freighters. Did they just fizzle out after '89?

[RobShan]

I think IPEC were swallowed up by TOLL who still fly around at night.

[airsupport]

And what happened to IPEC? I remember vaguely they had a couple DC9s and Argosy freighters. Did they just fizzle out after '89?

As mentioned earlier on this thread, I worked for them for many years after that year, actually for me it was after the collapse of Compass 2, the Argosy Freighters were long gone then, we operated two DC9 Freighters for many years after that, all around Australia and on hundreds of charters all over the Pacific, mainly Honiara.

That DC9 operation ended sadly when the DC9s were sold literally from under us to the USA. :(

I always thought that was the end of IPEC (Air Freight), however someone is suggesting it is part of Toll now? :confused:

[RobShan]

I always thought that was the end of IPEC (Air Freight), however someone is suggesting it is part of Toll now?


Sorry, I just remembered TOLL took over IPEC, although after minimal research it appears that this is only road freight.

Toll IPEC | Toll Group - Providing Global Logistics (http://www.tollgroup.com/tollipec)

[airsupport]

Just been searching to try to find out?

IPEC was purchased from Mayne Nickless in 1998 by Toll Holdings and renamed Toll IPEC.

And this was when the new *&^%$#@! owners suddenly sold the DC9s and I, and many others were out of work again. :(

Really stupid (sad) thing was they were very good aircraft, IPC and IPF, yet they apparently never flew in the USA, just sat in one of the graveyards. :(

[airsupport]

Sorry, I just remembered TOLL took over IPEC, although after minimal research it appears that this is only road freight.

NO worries. :ok:

I thought the name died with the DC9s, but yes it seems the name lives on in road freight, but sadly no longer adorns any aircraft. :(

[Aye Ess]

My painting of VH-IPA Ipec Argosy....

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a401/alan_spears/VH-IPAjpeg_zps3ebc7476.jpg (http://s1032.photobucket.com/user/alan_spears/media/VH-IPAjpeg_zps3ebc7476.jpg.html)

[Fantome]

Despite the best efforts of the Moorabbin museum and others, both
were broken up.

[john_tullamarine]

Despite the best efforts of the Moorabbin museum and others, both
were broken up.

As I recall they only picked up a few grand scrap ... ?

I can recall quite vividly watching the chomper from the hangar at EN ... like a hot knife through butter ...

[airsupport]

Something like this........... :(

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/argosy1_zps41d615ea.jpg

[john_tullamarine]

Exactly my recollection ... tragic end for the "Queen of the Skies"

[Fris B. Fairing]

Tragic isn't the word for it. The Argosies were despatched with what seemed to me like indecent haste at a time when the proposed National Air & Space Museum of Australia (NASMA) had an IPEC staff member on their board.

[Wunwing]

From memory, the 2 x DC9s were finally operated by Australasian Jet (??), who also operated a B727 200F based in Perth.

The DC9s were puchased by Evergreen International which purchased them from the leasor/owner. Again from memory Australian Jet wanted to keep them.

It was a while ago and I no longer have the records but that is the way I remember it.

Wunwing

[airsupport]

the 2 x DC9s were finally operated by Australasian Jet

I wish, then maybe I would still be working. :(

Unless you mean, which I do not think you do?, they were the final operator as that is true, because technically all the years I looked after them here in Queensland, and flew everywhere with them, it was Australasian Jet that operated them and I worked for, just had IPEC colours on them.

Nobody operated them after they were sold to Evergreen, they went to the USA and never flew again as far as I know, certainly NOT in Australia.

[airsupport]

it was Australasian Jet that operated them and I worked for

OOOOPS.... I really am getting old, sorry, they were actually operated by, and I worked for, IAF Independent Air Freight, a part of Australasian Jet, very complicated. :ok:

Both IPC and IPF left Australia (forever) to the USA in 1999, and have been stored unused since 2006. :(

[Old Fella]

JT, surely you jest?? I know I am somewhat biased toward the venerable C130 John, but to call the Argosy a "Queen of the Skies" does not really compute with my recollections of the aeroplane.

[airsupport]

Never had anything to do with the Argosy, however I have heard them being called different things to that, like ''what a c@@t of a way to get 4 Darts into the air" ;)

[airsupport]

Speaking of Darts, and certainly ''the way we were - Ansett, TAA'' what about the Viscount, or am I the only one here old enough to remember them.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/vis2_zps3dafb324.jpg

[Marauder]

I was around 5 years old, and went to Sydney from Adelaide and back, on a holiday with my old maid Aunt.

Unfortunately ? It was with Ansett, so I never qualified for the 'Captains' wings as a TAA junior flier

[airsupport]

I was around 5 years old

Okay, now you are just trying to make me feel older than I already do. ;)

Have some very pleasant memories of the Viscounts, and some not so pleasant memories too.

My first flight ever was on a Viscount back in 1963 when I was 16.

[Capt Claret]

I have many fond memories of going to Essendon to deliver or collect dad, who did a lot of travelling in Viscounts, Electras, F27s and later 72s & DC9s. :}

[airsupport]

The time I worked in MEL was all at Essendon left there before the move to Tullamarine, lots of great memories.

I only had a Fokker F27 and Viscount Licence at the time so was heavily involved with them.

Still very sad when I remember the day we heard about VH-RMI near Winton, and later the 700 near Port Hedland. :(

The first aircraft I ever signed out myself, after all those years of studying and training was a Viscount 800 at Essendon.

Made sure everything was perfect, dispatched it, watched it taxi out, scream down the runway, then it aborted. :uhoh:

I had to meet it when it returned to the gate, wondering what on earth was wrong, did I do something wrong, when I received it the Captain would not tell me at first what was wrong. :ooh:

Turned out a pax had gone crazy during the takeoff, run up and down, through the rear toilet and into the cargo hold, nothing to do with me thankfully. :ok:

[Nkosi]

Ah yes, some of my time with TAA, in BNE, involved the RR Dart as installed on the F27. I was licenced on the F27 airframe/engine as well as the PW JT8D installed on the Dc9 and B727, amongst other airframes which were not operated by TAA at the time.
One of my particular duties was as the Dart Type Specialist and this required for certain individuals to be allocated tasks involving engine control intercheck adjustments as and when required. This meant that the less amount of adjustment on 'Rod 13' for example by anyone not authorised lessened the chance of misadjustment. Also had the responsibility of main engine runs which, in turn, meant a bi annual check out in the Dart Simulator at Essendon.
A lot of work was required to ensure that those engines operated as per spec, but it was an achievement that we, as a team, turned out a good product that got passengers and crew safely to destinations.
As an aside my son flies for QLink as a F/O of which I am inadortinately proud.
Cheers
Nkosi.

[Updaburn]

Adelaide Airport mid 60's. I'm about 14rs old.
"Hey Mr can I go and have a look on the plane"
"Yeh OK" said someone over the other side of the waist high fence.


I left my push bike against the fence, pushed the gate open, and off I trekked by myself towards this amazing machine call a TJet.


My senses were racing. I didn't know what to expect as I had never been on or near a plane.
So for quite awhile a managed to stay out there wondering through the TAA 727 cabin and cockpit and then walking around the aircraft a dozen times.
Climbing down the back stairs was an amazing feeling.
The kero fumes, the noise of the APU all stuck in my head.


A line of people were strolling out to the aircraft so it was time for me to get on my bike.


This event must have influenced me to get into the aviation industry a few years later.

[Tarkeeth]

During the early 60s I was the QF rep in Tas. TAA were our GSA and I used to travel
weekly to MEB. On one trip I was in the jump seat when our flight was diverted to
Burnie as HBA and Launceston had closed down due WX and the crew had to feather 2
Darts due fire warnings and ATC wouldn't let us cross the pond on 2.
Great experience seeing Pros at work.Will always remember that flight and the skippers name .The Darts were a mess and covered in foam when opened. It was a electrical fault
Athol Townley was Minster for Aviation and if he was on board I was down the back.
I was a cockpit junkie and had over the years the privilege of being up front for Takeoffs and Landings with my own company,also TAA and Ansett and they will always remain a treasured memory of the the time when Aust airlines were Airlines .
In those days we all flew FOC on each others flights as needed. Great times.

[airsupport]

People say that when you get older you look back and think things were better back in the olde days, and I think they were too, definitely in the Airline Industry, as the last 2 posts have again pointed out. :(

As I mentioned early on this thread one of the worst changes is the lack of cockpit visits now, for Kids even like our Kids all did, but even for people in the Industry, I hate to even think what my time in the Industry would have been like if I could not have visited the cockpit particularly on those two Overseas contracts I did. :(

And someone mentioned security, I remember back in the 1960s when I was working at Essendon, not so much at the pax terminal, but often on the freight line, especially at weekends, the number of times I was working on an aircraft and people, Kids and Adults, would just come out onto the aircraft, NOT doing any harm, just curious about what was going on, some of these Kids probably went on to join the Industry, never going to happen today. :(

[RodH]

Airsupport.
No mate , you are not the only one to remember the Viscounts.
I flew the horrible things as an F/O in 1964.
What an absolute heap of crap they were. Everything that could go wrong with them seemed to do so.
In the short 7 months I was on them I had :
2 Engine failures
Several air conditioning heating problems resulting in lifting the carpet in the cabin and manually operating the system.
Two diversion due to low fuel in bad WX ( they had bugger all endurance )
Tyre shredded on take off
Starboard undercarriage jammed up ( Townsville Airport ) and only managed to extend it after 5 tries and about 3 minutes before a belly landing was to be carried out.
I must say that the poor old Viscounts were being used in an environment they were not really designed for.
It was designed for short to medium hops in Europe's cold / cooler weather but not the longer sectors and hot/ very hot trips we had them do.
When we used to do a tech stop in Mt Isa in summer we had to put a blanket over the controls as most of the cockpit was roasted in the overhead sun at noon. I reckon the temp in the cockpit was about 50C as there was no A/C and the ground blowers were about as effective as a fairies fart.
The day I left to go on to the B727 in 1965 was a huge relief !!

[john_tullamarine]

to call the Argosy a "Queen of the Skies" does not really compute with my recollections of the aeroplane.

ah .. guess I left off the smilie ?

However, the old girls made me a few dollars over the years so my bias is understandable. Indeed, I can recall quite fondly running some low level ops around DPO (with young Bazza driving and having a ball) to validate an escape to DCA's satisfaction ....

I flew the horrible things as an F/O in 1964.

Yet another stirling example of the finest of British Engineering Practice !

[Dora-9]

The Argosy was known in the RAF as 'the flying crisp carrier", i.e. you filled the tanks and could then only carry a packet of crisps.

From frequent experience, it was easily overtaken in a Friendship with only half the number of Darts!

[airsupport]

RodH,

I did say on a later post............

Have some very pleasant memories of the Viscounts, and some not so pleasant memories too.

I was only Licenced on the engines on the Viscount 800 never the airframe, but I worked on the airframes back then, yes they had some truly horrible faults, and as you alluded to, we had an English Engineer who worked with us back then and he said they were never meant to be in Australian conditions when they were designed, he reckoned they were great in Europe and hardly ever needed a lot of maintenance and just a weekly check. :rolleyes:

It is all relative too in a way, one day back then when I was working at Essendon an RAAF VIP Viscount was there and the Commander (or whatever he was called) was worried about a prop leak, I was sent over to check it. I could not see any problem but the Commander wanted assurance it was safe to fly back to Canberra. I took the spinner off and all I could see was a very small amount of grease, no oil leaks, and he said that was what he was worried about. I took him over to see one of our Viscounts in the hangar undergoing maintenance, he was then confident he would make it back to Canberra. ;)

Also john_tullamarine, back then they used to say the BEST aircraft you can have was an American airframe with British engines. :ok:

[Captain Dart]

The Argosy, or the 'Whistling Tit', was also known as the 'crisp carrier' because it was calculated that the densest load it could carry to completely fill its cargo volume ('cubing out'), with full tanks, was...potater chips ('crisps' to the Poms!).

[Dora-9]

Apparently with the RAF version, the Argosy CC.1's "beaver tail" (doors capable of being opened in flight) generated a lot of drag, further reducing its performance. IPEC's Argosy didn't have this feature.

[Eastwest Loco]

When East West took over DPO & WNY from TN I went with the handling agent as Airport Manager NW Tas.

This flash title included duties such as load control, staff training, checkin, loading and unloading during turnaround, delivering freight and deicing!

TN and AN were catered by Coastal Catering who delivered unappetising powdered scrambled egg and bacon that smashed on contact so I chucked them (as AN did a few months later) and got Andrew and Peter Smith on the job.

They would take the crews orders of anything from steak and egg to eggs benedict the previous day (we would call them in) and the next morning Andrew would arrive in his Moke (shots, short sleeved shirt and thongs year round) and load the catering cans with the individual crew requests clearly marked.

The same applied if we groundies were flying. You were lucky to fight your way through the magnificent brekky before the F27 was on descent.

It was my wife's idea to get the Smiths onto it and led to them being multi millionaires with catering ops all over Australia and the world.

Just another thing that has not survived.

Quel domage:{:(:sad:

Best all

EWL

Modified for spelling faux pas

[pppdrive]

For those of you not in Australia but who are interested in this entire thread, I have just found the TAA Museum web site TAA MUSEUM (http://www.taamuseum.org.au/)

Quite interesting and I for one will certainly pay it a visit if I ever get back down to Melbourne.

[Fantome]

You were lucky to fight your way through the magnificent brekky before the F27 was on decent.
loco old lad .. . . .. where I flew it was not always the case that we were half decent on descent. (Joke over) . Your priceless tales, including that one of the sometimes thought to be savant of a specific kind (not that I can agree there) , one MTR, racing the Ansett F27 Wynyard to Devonport, are vaguely relevant.

Access to the cockpit? On the round Australia charters out of Sydney the front door was never shut. Folk were welcome to pop up for a gander and a chat anytime, two at a time. One such was Mr Tom Philp (making the trip with his delightful wife Darcy) . Tom flew Spits with 452 SQN based Darwin . As we passed Port Keats en route Kununurra Tom regaled us with a story of being caught up in a melee at Port Keats during the war. . He had landed there to deliver a parcel to the mission at the same time that the natives were restless. He saw one of the brothers breaking a spear over his knee. (Curiously enough, I was able to tell him first hand a similar story. Only that was at Hooker Creek (Lajamanu) in 1974. Perhaps the biggest difference in our experiences was that he did not have to gently try to get off his plane a couple of distressed old ladies, sitting on the floor keening, rocking back and forth. (This was achieved with the help of the Dutch book-keeper, the only whitey at the settlement that afternoon. The root cause - booze, or access thereto.)

On one of those two week trips, so hard to get a gig on, our landing back at Mascot was memorable. It happened to be a perfect greaser.
Spontaneous applause erupted. That is one of those few times you can pick up the PA and say without a blush -

"Don't clap.. . . . . . throw money."


Pardon wandering off topic. as ever.
Call it tales of the unexpected.

[airsupport]

Just been trying, without luck so far, to find some more photos from the olde days, came across these hidden away, what better than combining two of the best things Aussie Airlines of days gone by and ..................

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/IMG_0001_zps4ff439a5.jpg

Cricket of course......... :ok:

They are the cards of the Aussies, and these are some of the also played. :E

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/IMG_0002_zps3648847e.jpg

[airsupport]

Sorry Mods if they are a little larger than normal I spent hours trying to get them ready to post, even then I got two round the wrong way. :(

Think I will go and have a lie down. :(

Any New Zealanders or South Africans read this, only joking. ;)

[Fantome]

not confined to them A.S. - if you go to Mount Tom Price you need to be sure he's facing the right way . (well aged joke)

[airsupport]

Cannot see the relevance? :confused::confused::confused:

[Fantome]

a joke's a joke . .. . a smoke's a smoke. . . a poke's a poke . . . . but . . ."

a sherbet down Breakfast Creek sometime? an very old watering hole .. y'know

[airsupport]

I got that it was some kind of weird joke, but as I said I cannot see the relevance to this thread, Airlines or even cricket. :confused::confused::confused:

[Centaurus]

one day back then when I was working at Essendon an RAAF VIP Viscount was there and the Commander (or whatever he was called) was worried about a prop leak, I was sent over to check it. I could not see any problem but the Commander wanted assurance it was safe to fly back to Canberra

Hey that could have been Centaurus!:ok: He always was a bit twitchy about oil leaks from props. Methinks he read too many scary flight safety magazines:D

The RAAF VIP Squadron had two Viscount 832's. The furnishings were beautiful - sheer luxury. Many times after dropping off the VIP we would return empty to Canberra and I would let the co-pilot fly from the left seat all by himself up front, while I relaxed in the Prime Minister's chair and read the newspapers down the back in luxury interrupted only by the pretty RAAF stewardess bringing me the coffee, cake and sticky buns left over from the VIP meal. In those days, rank had its privileges with I a Flight Lieutenant and the co-pilot a mere Pilot Officer.. Hence I had first choice of the cakes.

RAAF pilots underwent the Ansett ground engineering course at Essendon. The Dart engine lecturer (I forget his name) was a superb lecturer with such a keen sense of humour. On the other hand, three days on the autopilot was too much for me. Back at Canberra, Squadron Leader John Radford did my endorsement on the RAAF Viscount. Lots of circuits and landings including touch and go's. During one of the circuits John wanted to show me how much drag was caused by the props at idle.

We turned base for 35 and he told me to close all four throttles when I was sure of getting in - just like we did on Tiger Moths. I waited on level base leg until I reckon I could make it then closed the throttles. Had to dive to maintain the required threshold speed and it was soon obvious I had badly underestimated the effect of drag with throttles closed. Good lesson learned.

After the Winton crash where a fire in blower system burned through the wing as Ken May (?) the captain tried to reach Winton, I was determined the safest thing was to get into an emergency descent asap if we ever struck a similar problem. It might mean a forced landing or even a ditching if over water but the danger of a fire burning through a wing was scary. That glide approach into Canberra was a good example how quickly you could descend.

The Viscount Ansett performance course at Essendon run by Roger Gabriel the Ansett senior performance engineer in 1965, was top class and it was from listening to his lectures on take off performance that generated my career long interest in aircraft performance. Later in 1969 I attended the TAA F27 performance course at Essendon run by Peter Turner - another fine performance engineer. On one of his lectures he demonstrated the low gradient of climb of the DC9 on one engine after lift off with engine failure at V1. He did this by using a roll of toilet paper with the net flight path superimposed on it with the Brisbane Storey Bridge at one end and Eagle Farm airport on the other. Now a roll of toilet paper goes a long way and so did the DC9 flight path.

[airsupport]

Hey that could have been Centaurus! He always was a bit twitchy about oil leaks from props. Methinks he read too many scary flight safety magazines

Well at least now I know you made it safely back to Canberra. :ok:

The ONLY time I ever worked at Canberra Airport was way back then, went up there from Essendon one night to change a generator on a Viscount, I did not know before I went that Ansett had no hangar there, at the time anyway, one of the coldest nights of my Life. :eek:

[RodH]

Captain of the ill fated Viscount Was Capt. Ken Cooper.
The F/O was John Gillam.
I joined Ansett -ANA in Jan 64 and John was on the same DC3 course but was employed by Ansett-MAL ( New Guinea ) , he did not have enough experience to join Ansett-ANA. He worked in New Guniea for a while to get enough experience and was then able to join Ansett_ANA . He was delighted to be on the Viscount and he used to say how nice the V832 was . What a tragedy it ended for him the way it did. He worked so hard to come back to OZ.
Life can deal some cruel cards at times.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

[airsupport]

As I said earlier on this thread, one of the saddest days in my Life when we heard about VH-RMI. :(

I was working in the Ansett Aircraft Overhaul Hangar at Essendon at the time, we were doing a complete overhaul on one of its sister Viscounts, after the loss of RMI so many people (experts) from all over came to investigate the Viscount we had in pieces.

I had doubts then as did many others working there that it was the cabin blower that caused the loss of RMI, just they could not find anything else. Very poor design really, there was no fire protection in that area at all. :(

Nothing really changed after that either, just to make sure the drain plug on the blowers was in the correct place.

[Dora-9]

Nothing really changed after that either,Well it did - sort of. Ansett Friendships and Viscounts acquired a Rootes blower overheat warning light to be precise. I recall on the F.27 if you got a warning the method of determining if it was for real or not was to check the spill valve outlet for sparks; difficult on a bright sunny day and impossible on the ANSW -500's where the outlet was on the outboard side of the engine nacelle...

[airsupport]

Well it did - sort of

When I said nothing really changed I meant that would have prevented the loss of RMI. :(

Okay you got a pretty light but there was still NO way of putting out a fire in that area. :(

[Dora-9]

I can't agree with you that NOTHING changed after the RMI accident - subsequently there was a very real awareness amongst Ansett crews (at the very least) that if the cabin blower overheat light came on you only had a very limited amount of time to get on the ground.

When I said nothing really changed I meant that would have prevented the loss of RMI. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif
Again, I can't quite agree. From my admittedly highly fallible memory of the report into the Winton accident (I'd be happy to be corrected here), the crew initiated an emergency descent on the basis of a visible fire and that then they were unable to feather the engine (control runs had burnt through). If they ever had an engine fire warning it came much later (the fire started behind the area of the fire detecting loops), and because they didn't have what you damningly call the "pretty light" by the time they were aware they had a problem they were (very sadly) probably already doomed.

[airsupport]

Well sorry, but I was there for the whole investigation, not at the crash site, but with the teams that went over our identical Viscount in Overhaul for weeks and weeks.

Even if you believe that a leak from a plug being installed in the wrong place on the blower started the fire, the main problem, and it was a design problem THAT WAS NEVER FIXED was that there was NO way of putting out a fire in that area. :(

I would prefer NOT to argue over such a sad and tragic loss of life, thank you. :(

[Fantome]

Not exactly arguing . . . more like an informed discussion between two with
specialist knowledge of the time and the circumstances. A difference of opinion might be resolved by referring to the accident report and other relevant files. That is exactly what Mac Job has made his long suit for years. Across a broad canvas. To the great benefit of those who want to know as factually and accurately as possible what went wrong.

"I would prefer NOT to argue over such a sad and tragic loss of life, thank you."

Nobody is arguing over that. The personal tragedies attending the loss of life is not the issue at all.


Just harking back a little A.S. , when you say that you had
"doubts then as did many others working there that it was the cabin blower that caused the loss of RMI, just they could not find anything else. Very poor design really, there was no fire protection in that area at all", then of course if the fire did not originate in the Rootes blower, you would have to go on to conclude that the absence of fire warning or a fire bottle to activate in that section would be immaterial, in terms of a thorough investigation. That much should be patently obvious. The matter of design inadequacies is another subject, even if co-related.

[Dora-9]

arsupport:

Despite your tendency to take over this thread and turn it into a "look at me" thread (I've really enjoyed the photos though), please don't start condescendingly lecturing me on what can/can't be discussed here.

Wherever did I start showing disrespect towards the victims of this awful accident? Having seen, on the ground, the remains of RMQ a few days after that accident - I wish I never had, the sights and smells remain with me today - I don't appreciate being told I'm being insensitive or disrespectful or unaware of the horrible realities that lie behind these accidents.

You maintain that you know more than the investigators on the basis that "...I was there for the whole investigation" - as a 20 year-old I can well imagine you were at the forefront of this - and blindly follow the line that absolutely nothing changed. I concede that crews were never given the means of extinguishing a cabin blower fire (other than shutting down the engine), but the awareness factor, both in training and with the "pretty light" indication, assuredly did change things.

There is absolutely no intended criticism of the crew of RMI here, and it's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight, but had they have had the "pretty light" indication plus the awareness of the implications of this, then they could well have acted sooner and possibly never got into the uncontrollable fire scenario - every pilot's nightmare.

[Old Fella]

I do not wish to add to any perceived criticism of any other poster, however I noted reference to a "plug being in the wrong place" on the Rootes Blower as being the cause of the fire. My reading of the event lead me to believe that the problem was identified as being deficient maintenance during overhaul of the blower. It was found, I understood, that a loss of oil caused by the loosening of retaining nuts due to them not being lock wired precipitated the problem.

Neither fire or overheat detection, as well as fire suppression, was available in the area. The report I read indicated that by the time the crew became aware of the fire it was of such magnitude that the top spar cap had already been weakened so much that the bottom spar cap would fail under overload, as it did.

Sadly, design is not always foolproof. This loss was similar to that of the Neptune which suffered a similar fate near Richmond in 1959 when an un-contained failure of a Power Recovery Turbine occurred.

[Fantome]

The failure of the right wing of RMQ was found to be due to the use of incorrect and excessive force.

from wiki -


The investigation determined that some years before the accident, the bush at Station 143 had been pushed upwards so the chamfer and 0.055 inch (1.40 mm) of the parallel-sided portion protruded beyond the upper surface of the boom. The exposed end of the bush was then struck with a conical tool applied to the bore. This action slightly flared the exposed end and left the external diameter 0.0038 inch (0.097 mm) oversize.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacRobertson_Miller_Airlines_Flight_1750#cite_note-p13-16) The bush was then pushed upwards out of the hole and re-inserted from the lower surface. As the bush was being re-inserted its flared end broached (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broaching_%28metalworking%29) the anodised material and a small amount of aluminium from the wall of the hole. This broaching action scored the wall of the hole and left its diameter slightly oversize so the bush was not an interference fit anywhere except at its flared end. Scoring of the wall of the hole and the absence of an interference fit left the inner lower boom vulnerable to developing fatigue cracks at Station 143.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacRobertson_Miller_Airlines_Flight_1750#cite_note-17)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacRobertson_Miller_Airlines_Flight_1750#cite_note-18)
Despite exhaustive investigation it was not possible to determine when, why, or by whom, the bush at Station 143 had been flared with a conical tool, removed and then re-inserted in the bolt hole. Investigators could not imagine circumstances in which a responsible tradesman would take these actions.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacRobertson_Miller_Airlines_Flight_1750#cite_note-MJ196-8)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacRobertson_Miller_Airlines_Flight_1750#cite_note-19)

[Old Fella]

Fantome, if your post alluded to my previous we are looking at two different accidents. Below the "Copy and Paste" from the notes of Frank Yeend, one of the Accident Investigators into the loss of VH-RMI.


"In the latter stages of the flight, the fire and smoke on the port side of the aircraft became visible from the cabin, but by this time the softening of the wing spar would have progressed to the point where a catastrophic failure was imminent.

The attachment of the No. 2 blower oil metering unit was effected by 5 threaded studs in the body of the unit upon which five castellated nuts held secure a cover plate. In turn, these castellated nuts are secured by a copper locking, wire passing through each to prevent unwanted rotation of the nuts or the studs. In the wreckage examination only one stud remained and none of the nuts, but obviously there was a strong presumption that, although there was a severe vibration set up by the blower lobe failure, the loss of the studs and nuts probably occurred because the required locking wire had not been put in place during the last overhaul of the blower".

[airsupport]

Ah yes RMQ, another sad day for Viscounts. :(

I was on duty at Essendon the following day, it was a public holiday, new years day I think 1969.

I had one of the others, cannot remember if it was RMO or RMP, all ready to dispatch full of pax and DCA turned up and confiscated all the logs and paper work, they never flew again. :(

RMO was used for fire fighting practice, RMP was overhauled by Ansett for sale to an airline in Indonesia, all painted up in blue and white colours, then DCA refused to even let it be ferried, it ended up scrapped at Essendon too. :(

[Fantome]

dear OF . . .. . not mixing the two up really. Just thought that the RMQ trace was apposite, as both failures, while in no way common, except for the suspicion, in the case of RMI, of also a maintenance related cause, was worth a look back. In hindsight. (now I can be accused of tautology, as well as thread drift.

The Yeend screed mentions copper lockwire. That went out with the ark.
LAME s today pale when they see any still in service.

[airsupport]

The main reason that the 700s were grounded forever the day after RMQ was lost, but not the 800s, was that the 700s only had a single main spar. :(

[Eastwest Loco]

That's exactly what my father (TN LAME) told me as a little kid airsupport.

The 700 Series would never fly again. the single spar wing had brought their demise but the 800 would carry on as they were twin spar.

All of these accidents were taken personally by Dad as his job was to keep aeroplanes and people safe.

I was only 4 but clearly remember him coming home on a mid winter night absolutely devastated that TFB had been lost on approach to Mackay. I was also reduced to tears when I found out that the cut open for display Dart on display in the TAA Franklin St terminal was actually one from the ill fated aeroplane. Not a good way to start your days work in Res. Too many echoes.

Even today as a museum or historical society you would not be able to place a Viscount 700 on the Australian Register as an operational aeroplane. They have been black banned for years and years.

Fantome - I accept the "idiot" to go with the savant, but believe I have been totally accurate in everything I have recounted. The WNY DPO incident included a gentleman in the F/O position who among other things including some financial was adept from what I heard in falsifying log books and was finally pinged for that in Malaysia. When he stepped off the aeroplane he was white as a ghost and said "He yelled yoiks tally ho and opened the throttles and dived". Only time I have seen that person rattled.

I believe he had lost his Captiancy for some reason at that time.


For those that might remember Laurie McGuire who was a TN 25 year Club member passed away at 2330 Friday night. Did a good job at mid 80s. Some of the older crew may remember him from TN997 services into Devonport. I am pretty sure he didn't do the TN990 very often.

Enough rabbiting on.

Best all

EWL

[airsupport]

I was only 4 but clearly remember him coming home on a mid winter night absolutely devastated that TFB had been lost on approach to Mackay

They are all very sad, even now still, that one in particular for if I remember correctly it was full of young school children. :(

[Eastwest Loco]

Correct airsupport

Nine from Rockhampton Grammar

The internal chatter (probably via the Townsville refuellers Grandpa) was runway lights reflecting of the very low overcast creating a ghost runway on the still water or the low approach they used to get under the fog tripping them up on turn onto final with the port wingtip finding water.

This event sparked the placement of black boxes on anything from F27 size upwards.

Best all

EWL

[Townsville Refueller]

The internal chatter (probably via the Townsville refuellers Grandpa) was runway lights reflecting of the very low overcast creating a ghost runway on the still water or the low approach they used to get under the fog tripping them up on turn onto final with the port wingtip finding water.

Yes that is true, sadly............ :(

[greg47]

As A pilot I understood the Roots blower on the viscount was the same as the F27 . It was magnesium alloy. On the f27-200 the shaft was a light quill shaft designed to shear if the bearing picked up and yes we had the red light, but it would have been burning then. Im not aware of any f27 having a problem.

[airsupport]

As A pilot I understood the Roots blower on the viscount was the same as the F27 . It was magnesium alloy. On the f27-200 the shaft was a light quill shaft designed to shear if the bearing picked up and yes we had the red light, but it would have been burning then. Im not aware of any f27 having a problem.

Yes they are basically the same component, also on both aircraft types installed in an area with no fire protection, and yes as you say about the light that is what I was saying earlier the light was added after RMI as they had to do something but it was not going to be much help really, and I am not aware of any serious problems with them after RMI.

The main difference of course between the F27 and the V800 is that on the F27 the blower is mounted in a vertical position where on the Viscount 800 it was mounted horizontally.

It was found at the time of the investigations that this was one of the main factors in the accident because the drain plug on the blower was installed in the wrong place thus not allowing the oil to drain away as the blower failed, something that would not have been so critical on an F27 because the blower is mounted vertically and the plugs are at the top.

[pppdrive]

http://s932.photobucket.com/user/pppdrive/library/

Recently had all my files wiped from hard drive and whilst searching my photos so I could scan them back into my PC, I came across this sad picture from the early 70s.
I had joined TAA in 1969 and eventually managed to obtain a TAA poster for my wardrobe. You may even notice another "well known" airline poster in the picture.

Sorry, picture didn't come throuh so will have to try again.

[pppdrive]

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad169/pppdrive/scan0001_zps4ae9f447.jpg

[Fantome]

yep . .. . . . . .. .. . .that fly united mock-logo did the rounds, alright. Borrowed and adapted by more than one hairline pilot to be made into a nav bag tag.

thinks .. . . what has that young chasp lusting after those lovely legs got round his neck?
Not the medallion of a liveryman of GAPAN?

Ahhh . .. . .. The Friendly Way . . . .. somewhere there's a recording of the Dulux Show with

Jack Davey where "Mrs Jones" wins a flight. Spliced in for the show is the voice of John Chance (it sounds like) giving an old fashioned boarding call, giving the usual plug for the Vickers Viscount , making it sound oh so very imperial .

Only the greybeards round here will have first hand memories of Jack Davey, his perpetual brightness, and the patter of the born showman.

"That's not quite the right answer Mrs Jones. But don't go home empty handed.
"Take this Namco Pressure Cooker. Cuts cooking time in half.

"Here. Take two. You won't have to cook at all."

of course the best archive of all things TAA is in the TAA Museum just over the tram line from Essendon Airport, run by James Meahan, ex TAA and a real trooper

BTW . . his g g g g grandfather , also James Meahan, was a ticket of leave surveyor attached to Charles Grimes, the second surveyor general of NSW, just before John Oxley.
Which surveyor general happened to the g g g g grandfather of yours truly.
Jim and I adjourned to Young and Jacksons for a nostalgic Fosters or 3.

we did not follow up with a slash from the Grimes Bridge (just down flinders Street) being in a couther part of Melbourne.

which all has little to do with rootes blowers, flying united, and the price of fish.

If anyone wants to meet a bloke who flew for Ansett ANA for many years, he lives a hop and a step from Heck Field, and has a fund of ripper yarns.
Flew with Keith Virtue. Flew with Jason Hazzard.

Has some great stories about Harry Moore, seconded to BCPA.

Was F/O on a Sepal survey Cat out of Mascot. Has a few good ones about those days too. Like landing at Rose Bay and springing multiple leaks.
Laugh? bloody near died.

[pppdrive]

I have no idea what's around my neck. I did wonder myself as I just can't remember having anything that bling.

Although I only did just over a year with TAA, I had always been a fan of them from before I arrived in Australia. As it happens, I ended my aviaition career with Sunstate/Qantas in Hervey Bay, so the 'old' connection was still there.

Will definitely visit the TAA Museum if I ever get back down to Melbourne.

[airsupport]

Just been talking to some of the Family about this ''the way we were'' business, our Daughters fondly remembering the cockpit visits every time they flew, which YES was mentioned before.

Another thing though I was reminded of from way back then that would NEVER EVER happen today sadly, when I was an Apprentice back in the 1960s at Essendon, working Monday to Friday, there would often be test flights scheduled for over the Weekend, usually but not always a DC3 that had been in for a check and needed a test flight.

Any of us that wanted to could put our name down to go on these test flights as pax, and not only that, but we could (and did) nominate and then bring someone else too, a Mate or a Girlfriend with absolutely NO connection at all to Ansett.

Cannot imagine that happening now............

Those really were the good olde days. :ok:

[LeeJoyce]

We'll imagine it

787 had staff friends and family on it for some proving flights
When the A330 was introduced to JQ same deal, mates got a free scenic flight out of it, no ones asked me though :(

[73to91]

The 'mock ups' for QF cabin crew training were pretty good in years gone by.

Lunches were the go but you could also be lucky to get a night time traiing so dinner was very good and BYO.

And they were P class meals.

I wonder if they still do them?

[airsupport]

We'll imagine it

787 had staff friends and family on it for some proving flights
When the A330 was introduced to JQ same deal, mates got a free scenic flight out of it

Yes but (hopefully) they were serviceable aircraft certified for revenue flight.

These were aircraft that had been in maintenance and had to have a test (proving) flight before they were cleared for revenue service.

Fairly sure no Company would allow that now, if for no other reason it would be because of insurance liability.

[500N]

pppdrive

I have a sticker with the "fly united" ducks on it.

I never used it because I thought it was so good !

[pppdrive]

500N

Wish I'd kept the poster as well, but it's long gone.
That said, as well as being able to take the p**s out of ourselves, in those days we actually had pride in our job, pride in the airline we worked for and happy to be part of a team. I do remember having "discussions" with Management over certain issues, but generally I would say there was a lot of mutual respect between the staff and Management as together, we all made the team work well. Those days airlines were run by airline people who may have had accountants to 'help' them run the business, now it seems that accountants run the business and 'reluctantly' have to have airline staff to help them. Such a shame that it has all come down to this. Experience counts for nowt now and I'm really glad to be retired now. At least I still have my memories of how things used to be.

[500N]

I did a lot of flying on BA and QAntas between 78 and 82 as SLF,
always good times !

Experience counts for nowt now and I'm really glad to be retired now.

As slf, I see experience counting - Scully, QF32, QF oxygen cylinder ?
Versus the crashes in Indo as examples.

My HO only !

[pppdrive]

500N

I meant that from the current management point of view, experience counts for nowt now. Their only concern is the bottom line on accounts sheets.

[Ida down]

I read this and silently weep. Weep for all the great pilots I have known and lost, the aircraft I have known and lost. My beloved DC9, my time with TAA in PNG, surely now a young pilots dream job, "mornins for flyin, afternoons for drinkin, night times for sha$$in! I think of all those young Captains in the late fifties and early sixties, all so badly damaged by war, mostly crewing the Lancaster Bombers, and somehow survived, but to go thru life never the same, just too much for a twenty year old to see and experience, and yet it was those same men, who took the airlines forward. I think of Butler, East West, Airlines of NSW, I think of Captain's Dicky Holt ( the father of bidding) Buck Brooksbank, Frank Ball, John Hickey, I think of the great Engineers, (when TAA was partly seconded to Dept of Mineral Recourses, they sent us, two young pilots and one engineer off on a adventure of a lifetime with a DC3 called MIfu%$in N, with a amazing Engineer called Russell Mc,fuc%^n Nee,) three young men, who lived a dream. Imagine now sending three people with one aircraft, to search for minerals, along with a small team of geologists, out into the GAFA (Great Australian FA) for six months, living in tents, and leaving small mountains of empty beer cans dotted on the landscape, as our proud monuments! We shed the uniforms, flying in shorts, socks, army boots, and a cap, that is until the TAA manager Capt. Frank Ball caught up with us in Boulia, and horrified that his pilots looked like two deadbeats, demanded we went back into uniform. Sadly we had lost so much weight from the heat, our uniforms almost fell off us, and so TAA sent us some natty shorts, a proper uniform shirt, totally impractical shoes, and insisted on the same uniform hat. They are all still in my wardrobe, for as soon as they left...........................? Going back to line flying was like going back to boring, you cannot have fun with a aircraft full of PAX, and we had fun with that DC3, but we all have to grow up at some stage. Now its flying by hubcaps, as my kids who now fly, call it, and envy my adventures, I would not swap one day of it.

[donderwolkje]

That sounds like VH-DAS with Bob N....M at the helm

[Dora-9]

Or F**** O"G**** blowing the hapless cyclist over at Rottnest Island?

[freighterone]

C'mon Rod they were not that bad. Yes, very short range which did cause some problems. Hot as hell in the summer in Queensland and were not designed for Australian operations especially BNE-MSA-DWN.
I still remember the 8 leg days BNE-ROK-MKY-TSV-CNS returns.
We were lucky to go on the B727 at that time.
Hope your enjoying your retirement? Like to catch up sometime.

[finestkind]

I have hesitated for some time to post as I did not wish to interrupt or derail these wonderful reminisces, stories and banter. I agree totally that the “way we were” is significantly different to the way we are. My limited exposure, via being a pax, has seen a different culture emerge. Undoubtedly part of the change has been bought about by the tightening of the purse strings by the bean counters which has a significant flow on effect to all parts of the industry, from the baggage handlers to the drivers. It is such a pity that the moral of the workers is not considered by management not only in respect to their “happiness” but also how this impacts on your profit, which is your passengers. The last thing I wish to be confronted by is a surly (probably justifiably so) check in member :O(take this any way you wish too) to an unenthusiastic attendant with a less than welcoming demeanour. Admittedly flying is no longer the privilege of the well-off nor a once or twice in lifetime experience with this becoming more and more just a transport industry and arguably reflective of just being a “bus” but also the type of clientele that have to be dealt with. There is no doubt in my mind that a smile begets a smile which goes onto manners, attitude etc. Now for someone to put up with a less than desirable passenger is more of a “ how much of a percentage is this load made up of undesirables” as opposed to do we have one or two of those on this trip.

Which leads into my next bit. The cultural change is not only due from internal (miss) management but from society itself. It appears to be wholly acceptable to be rude, ignorant and totally unpleasantly demanding in today’s society. Unfortunately this like the “way it was’ will not change due to “if you don’t know what it was like how do you know the way it should be”. How do the new employees have any idea of how the attitude was to help when you could, even if it was the opposition, to the pax not knowing what the standard of travel was when all they have been exposed to is the current standard.

It would appear to me to be a one way street and we can only, those of us that know, whimsically wish for the way it was.

[pppdrive]

finestkind;

I totally agree with your post. Times have changed for Management, worker and also the general public. Perhaps my experience may give a little insight into why I think this has happened.

After many years in aviation, I took a Coach Driving position for almost 10 years. When I started, the vast majority of passengers were regular travellers and the elderley. Mainly, I did the direct route to/from London and the fare was around the 12-15 UK pound mark. I would welcome every passenger on board whilst checking their ticket. If they had baggage, the passenger would place it in the hold themselves (obviously I would do so for those that were unable). All passengers would at least acknowledge you but the vast majority would have some conversational interaction with you.

I ended up having to leave the job due to having to do much more within the job and also having to put up with a rapid decrease in the attitude of the passengers. Why did this happen? Firstly the increased workload. When I started, it was the passengers responsibility to load their luggage. That then changed to still be the passengers responsibility but the driver may assisted if required. Then it was driver would assit and finaly it was the drivers responsibility to load all baggage. This increased the time taken to have all baggage and passengers loaded for the scheduled departure time. The Internet became available so that passengers could get their ticket from home instead of having to physically go to an Agent/Office to buy one. Then the bean counters decided to make ticket costs less by reducing a number of seats a lot cheaper (some down to UK pound 1). Then they decided that they would advertise the trip as a "shuttle" service of 'turn up and ride.' Now we started getting many passengers who turned up without a ticket. Each driver had an 'emergency' ticket book which previously might have been used maybe twice a year at the most. Now, we are faced with up to an average of 15 passengers who we had to write out tickets for and collect the money. Most of these passengers would be expecting to pay the UK pound 1 for their trip even though this was advertsised as only available on the Internet and in advance. Consequently us drivers were having to do much more just prior to departure whilst still trying to get an on-time departure. Our passengers were now having to wait longer for their baggage to be loaded, tickets issued and then being boarded. It doesn't take long now for the 'cultural' change to head in the wrong direction. The drivers are getting more stressed, the passengers are more stressed and the downward spiral continues. It ended up so bad that several drivers were physically assaulted for not giving people the UK pound 1 fares. Few passengers would even acknowledge the driver, let alone converse with him. The regular passengers started going by train and we were left with passengers who wanted the world for nothing and drivers who became totally dis-interested in their job. Yes, I had already had well over 40 years of Customer Service, so should have been able to 'ride the storm,' but I couldn't and shouldn't have had to anyway. I'm retired now and yes, the good old days were much better, pride in your job, respect for your Management and most of all, respect for your customers.

[Aye Ess]

Time to breath some life back into this excellent thread.....here is a painting I did recently. Qantas operated B707 aircraft from 1959 to 1979. As a kid of the 60s and 70s in Sydney I remember the teacher having to stop talking while one of these would scream overhead, shaking the school and leaving a carpet of black smoke behind.

(*For art geeks ....it's acrylic on stretched canvas 30cm x 60cm)

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a401/alan_spears/qantas707jpeg_zpse80478b4.jpg (http://s1032.photobucket.com/user/alan_spears/media/qantas707jpeg_zpse80478b4.jpg.html)

[Pinky the pilot]

Very nice Aye Ess!:ok:

If you ever have same size prints made of it, please put me down for one.

Or F**** O"G**** blowing the hapless cyclist over at Rottnest Island?

Come on Dora-9; Let's have the story!:D

[airsupport]

As a kid of the 60s and 70s in Sydney I remember the teacher having to stop talking while one of these would scream overhead, shaking the school and leaving a carpet of black smoke behind.

I grew up and went to school in Sydney, but did not live or go to school anywhere near the airport.

When I moved to Melbourne to start work as an Apprentice in 1963 I lived at first in a boarding house in Niddrie, to be near the Engine Shop in Keilor Road, my only memory of that place was the building shaking and not being able to hear the TV or anyone talking whenever a DC6 went over on approach to or after taking off from Essendon Airport.

[500N]

"whenever a DC6 went over on approach to or after taking off from Essendon Airport."

By pure chance I happened to end up under the DC?3? that was landing at Essendon on I think last Sunday. Very nice seeing it slowly fly around.

[Dora-9]

For those PPruners who don't follow the Fragrant Harbour forum, I must sadly report that Mike Hayes passed away in the US recently. He flew for MMA in 1967-1968, then Ansett 1968-1988 (Brisbane-based), before going initially to Transcorp in HK and then to Cathay.

Always good company and possessing a devastatingly dry wit, he will be greatly missed...

[greybeard]

I joined the same MMA intake.

He was a BIG lad to say the least, a special seat and seat back had to be made to fit him in the DC-3 seat and have room to get under the control column.

Blooddy old age is upon us all.

:ok:

[Dora-9]

Yes, Phil - but he was younger than both of us!

[Granpa]

Speaking of those comments concerning...'call me captain', while flying for a rather successful Asian airline many years ago, one of our captains was discussing something in the office with a European secretary. She kept addressing him as "Des", (not his real name). After the Chinese staff had departed from the office, he said to her,"Freda, I think that whilst in the company of the Chinese staff, you should address me as 'Captain'", then he departed. Some time later, by the poolside of one of the many clubs in town - with Chinese waiters milling around - the captain came across Freda and her Scottish magistrate husband, George...She introduced Des to her husband. "Hello, Des"..."Hello George", replies Des. She moves a little closer to him and quietly says, "Des...In the presence of the Chinese staff, I think you should address him as 'Your Worship'"....Fortunately, we didnt have too many pilots like this one...

[Al E. Vator]

Historical advertorial of Melbourne Airport - YouTube

Looks way better then than now! A far cry from today when switching to MEL Ground to be told "hold position, your parking bay is occupied"...20 minutes later....waiting, waiting....

[pppdrive]

I have recently found the following site;
Aussie Airline Uniforms and Collectibles. (http://ausairuniforms.com/)

As the title says, it's about Aussie Airlines uniforms but also contains much more information. If you're on this forum you'll probably find something of interest on the site and may even be able to help with questions re uniforms, badges etc. Darren who runs the site, is very approachable and easy to get on with and he's constantly updating the site as new info comes in.
Paul

[tea & bikkies]

Ah the way we were. Anyone remember these? Imagine this happening today!!!!

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww269/greg2217/20140713_194620_RichtoneHDR_zps625e9561.jpg (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/greg2217/media/20140713_194620_RichtoneHDR_zps625e9561.jpg.html)

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww269/greg2217/20140713_194608_RichtoneHDR_zps329bd647.jpg (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/greg2217/media/20140713_194608_RichtoneHDR_zps329bd647.jpg.html)

[Wonderworld]

I remember the port. I was in BNE res in those days. Opened it and a few of us sipped it out of our coffee mugs. Such good days back then. :D

[1746]

:D:D:D.....Yes....... I remember when we were treated like human beings and heaven forbid, really valued and appreciated!!!

[Brian Abraham]

Ida down, VH-MIN, Des (I think first name) Milne engineer? Very late 50s, early 60s, survey around Whyalla.

[dac25]

On the subject of days gone by in Aussie Aviation, I have a website dedicated to many of the Airlines referenced in the thread. I have Airline uniforms and nostalgia from the last 4 decades. Check it out at Aussie Airline Uniforms and Collectibles. (http://ausairuniforms.com/)

[B772]

1746

Sadly everything went bottom up in 1987 after the share market crash.

[1A_Please]

Anyone remember these? Imagine this happening today!!!!

I worked for AN in the late '80s and every Xmas we would receive a pudding or Christmas cake in a special tin with a message from Sir Peter Abeles. In 1989, there was a bit of a scandal when about 200 AN Christmas cakes turned up for sale at the Caribbean Market in Scoresby. ....seems someone in despatch had purloined some of the shipment!!!

[Fantome]

I have a website dedicated to many of the Airlines referenced in the thread.

Had a squizz at it dac 25. Good work. The EWA F27 pictured at Norfolk Island looks like it could be VH-EWN. When you start the audio you get six minutes of the Darts winding up to 10,000 RPM. But at least no hearing loss or the ingestion of great wafts of kerosene.

still , very nostalgic

and oh . . those NLK overnights!

p.s. the kids leaning on the fence in that photo . . . .. we were leaning on that self same very high security barricade one day to watch a SAFEAIR Argosy from NZ landing on RWY22 coming in fast to touch down between us and the terminal. That Whistling Wheelbarrow had very hot brakes after she was stopped , turned around and taxied back up to the terminal.

http://ausairuniforms.com/images/EastWestF27.jpg

[Thumbs up]

AHHH yes the Ansett Christmas pudding.

As a young sprog with AN in the late eighties I recall a jump seat ride on a "whispering T Jet" early January and the conversation went something like this.

F/O: Hey Bob did you eat that pudding we got for Christmas

Capt: Yeah we had on Christmas day....bloody beautiful.

F/O: Really?..... mine tasted like s..t, had one mouthful and tossed it!

Capt: No we devoured ours, how long did you cook it ?.

F/O: COOK IT ?.

One of priceless memories

[reefrat]

The way we were, the milk run around the stations on the DC3,from the Isa stopping at each place with a strip,,trying to get home for Xmas from Julia creek,, lots of kids flying,, plane full, Fo arranged for 2 little uns to sit together and gave me their seat on the F27.
Working in Saudi,, very very premmy baby arrived in England,, at Xmas time, planes completely packed,, on wait list in Bahrein, plane was loading,, I spoke to the cabin boss and he said get on and put me in the otherwise empty top deck of the 747 for the trip to LHR,, had an ATC card and would backtrack a 1000 miles to get on a QF flight, rather than BA or some of the other grubby airlines.
All that was over 40 years ago
The rot started when rice biscuits were introduced, and cabin staff refused to give one a cognac and insisted on disgusting Tolley, while Singapore, QF's major competitor, would give you double shots and champagne if you were polite, and tuck you up in a blanket. Quiet nice as anyone who has worked in Saudi will know. Frequent flyer priveleges were slowly reduced and then charged for. One got to know the crews so much so, that on a flight LHR /Barhrein I gave up my seat to a cabin steward who was pissed out of his mind and hid him under my jacket, while I drank at the back, much to the chagrin on the flight services director dressed in his Beijing tram drivers uniform who was looking for him.
Today I really do backtrack 1000 miles to avoid the regimented grim cabin of QF and enjoy Emirates who sometimes give me an unasked-for upgrade and are unfailingly polite and helpful rather like the boys and girls on the 707, and ealry 747 flights:p
I know that nostalgia is not what it used to be, but they were golden years before the effing bean counters took over all our individualistic endeavours.

[mikedreamer787]

Who could forget the back lounge of the Electra and the DC4?

Flying was fun in Oz in those days and enjoyable and one got dressed up for it. If one's TAA 727 went tits up one was put on the next AN without auctions or arguments. If the flight was cancelled you'd be booked into a livable pub at no cost. Only a small handful of unkempt bogans on any given flight in cattle class. Minimum of PAs by the hostesses (not 'flight attendants'....hosties had panache) and the PAs weren't loud.

The only real dangerous blight on the then high standard airline system were those Viscount 700s. After Winton dad banned us from flying on them.

And I met Susan Jones on one AN flight! :) :E

[Fantome]

. .. .. . and? ? . .. . . ..

say you knew anyone prominent from that era . .. Susan who?

like Malcolm who?

like Spike who or Marty who? roll eyes.. say time you looked back for the greats mate



http://www.popsike.com/pix/20061128/260058579968.jpg
http://www.popsike.com/i/spacer.gif

[Fantome]

TAA wanted glamour too in its promotions -

who was their model hostie (she gets a mention in Ian Sabey's book. Sabey was TAA public relations. He recruited Norah?? for the promo)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/bb/a4/aa/bba4aab35c45e7f79a0157571d6d8c8e.jpg (https://www.pinterest.com/adelaidebeatric/australia-ye-olde-in-full-colour/)

[AEROMEDIC]

Getting dressed up for a flight ? Those were the days.

You wore a suit particularly for international flights. My first international flight was on Qantas going to Vancouver in January 1969. I dressed in a grey wool suit and arrived to freezing weather and snow. Had cold weather clothes in my stowed luggage, but not on board.
Inflight service was great, even in economy, and no plastic cutlery there. Food was good and booze was great. Smokers were catered for (I was a smoker then).
No aerobridges then, so you disembarked via airstairs, but if it was raining, an umbrella was provided.

You felt special then.

[mikedreamer787]

Yes dad would dress up in a tieless suit if we were down the back and I recall I'd be in my best shirt and shorts with long socks and shoes. People took pride in appearance when flying as airline passengers back in those days. Not like now.

Kids probably went on to join the Industry, never going to happen today.

It was a visit inside the cockpit of the first airliner I flew in, a DC3, that made me want to become a pilot more than ever. The young Captain (who much later line-trained me on the DC9) let me stay for the landing! :)

[wayoutwest]

pppdrive.you sound like another ex national bus driver.:ok:

[pppdrive]

wayoutwest...

Very nearly correct, 1968-1996 with various Airlines around the world and after that I was a coach driver on National Express services in the UK.

[Fantome]

He was a BIG lad to say the least, a special seat and seat back had to be made to fit him in the DC-3 seat and have room to get under the control column.

greybeard . . .. another large character who were he still with us would laugh scornfully at the BMI was Jason Hazzard, would he not?

Jase skipped the Diesel as he couldn't fit. 3 holer proved a roomy fit for him

He was also described by his intimates as "a tired man"


He'd dead-head home to Lismore at least once a month and go straight to bed . . for three days!

[mates rates]

Fantome
The East-West Fokker at Norfolk would have been EWQ.They only had 2 aircraft for the SYD-NLK route with long range tanks.EWP and EWQ.

[blueys]

there were 3 EWA f27 500 with long range fuel used for NI EWP EWQ EWN EWN was an x malasian airlines a/c which was an earlier 500 series.

[Eastwest Loco]

EWN was also considerably heavier and seldom did NLK after Papa and Quebec entered the equation.

The latter 2 had the rear pair of passenger windows closer together on at least one side.

I think Papa is still poodling around with CSIRO.

Best all

EWL

[mates rates]

Your right Blueys
I forgot about EWN and it did have a higher basic weight effecting payload to NLK.

[Fantome]

EWN and EWO were both ex-Sterling (Denmark)

here is the EWO history - thanks RN Smith - Aussieairliners.com

Entered onto Dutch Aircraft Register as PH-FPI - April 9, 1970
Registered to Fokker NV
First flown as PH-FPI - April 13, 1970
Delivered new to Sterling Airways - June 10, 1970
Entered onto Danish Aircraft Register as OY-STN - June 10, 1970
Cancelled from Dutch Aircraft Register - June 10, 1970
Leased to the United Nations as OY-STN - January 18 to May 31, 1973
Sold to East West Airlines - September 12, 1973
Arrived Tamworth at conclusion of delivery flight in full Sterling livery - November 14, 1973
Overhauled and repainted at Tamworth
Entered onto Australian Aircraft Register as VH-EWN - December 19, 1973
Registered to East West Airlines Ltd
Aircraft named 'The Sunshine Coast'
Operated first East West revenue service - Sydney-Port Macquarie - December 21, 1973
Registered to East West Airlines (Operations) Ltd - March 9, 1977
Withdrawn from service and stored Tamworth - October 11, 1983.
Sold to Fokker
Departed Tamworth on delivery flight to Holland - October 17, 1983
Cancelled from Australian Aircraft Register - October 28, 1983
Placed in storage at Ypenburg
Entered onto Dutch Aircraft Register as PH-EXF - May 10, 1984
Cancelled from Dutch Aircraft Register - June 7, 1984
Sold to Aircraft Finance & Trading for lease to MVA - June 9, 1984
Entered onto U.S. Aircraft Register as N271FA - June 9, 1984
Departed Amsterdam on delivery flight to U.S.A. - June 9, 1984
Leased to Air Wisconsin following merger with M.V.A. - May 17, 1985
Returned to Aircraft Finance & Trading - November 1985
Leased to Mesaba Airlines as N271FA - March 1986 to July 1993
Leased to Mahalo Air - August 6, 1993
Aircraft was reregistered as N981MA
Departed California on delivery flight to Honolulu - September 22, 1993
Sold to Mahalo Air - February 4, 1994
Reregistered N981MA - February 24, 1994
Aircraft was named ' The Honu'
Withdrawn from service and stored Honolulu Airport - May 1, 1994
Mahalo Air was declared bankrupt - May 31, 1994
Sold to Air 1st Aviation Co. Inc - October 29, 1996
Registered to Air 1st Aviation Co. Inc - December 5, 1996
Ferried to Mena, Arizona for storage - December 1996
Converted to freighter configuration by Reeb Air - January 1998
Cancelled from U.S. Aircraft Register - March 27, 1998
Entered onto German Aircraft Register as D-ACCS
Sold to Sky Team GmbH - trading as ECCS Air Cargo Service - April 8, 1998
Entered service with SkyTeam on Frankfurt-Coventry route - April 20, 1998
Withdrawn from service and stored when SkyTeam ceased operations - June 2002
Stored at Karlsruhe-Baden Baden, Germany
Scrapping commenced - December 2004

[Fantome]

when one of the two arrived overhead Tamworth with a Dutch or Danish ferry pilot at the helm, he was still unusually high. When asked why by one of the EWA drivers who had heard the very late final descent clearance, the ferry joe said 'Oh .. . . I looked at the atlas to see what is your highest mountain and decided I would play it safe and not go below ten thousand feet till I had your runways in sight."

[V-Jet]

Apologies if this has already been posted. I haven't read the whole thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5t5aE0iW4o

[V-Jet]

I get the potential upset it might cause, I didn't post for that reason AT ALL. It is from the Australian National Film Archives and whatever you think about the people, it is a fascinating insight into cost of living, what it was like seeing Australia from a US perspective and also (even if partly scripted) what people thought of operating RPT in Australia nearly 30 years ago. I well know and understand the hurt that was caused, but much like WWII, can't we just see it as a dark chapter in history and enjoy a snapshot of commercial aviation 30 years ago?

And let's not overlook the great fashion tips! Some of which are still to be witnessed in full taffeta technicolour in airline bars around the world...

[Fantome]

sorry too much masta..lik lik savvy in some areas

BUT...still waters do run deep and ever will

[V-Jet]

sorry too much masta..lik lik savvy in some areas

BUT...still waters do run deep and ever will

And my family hid Jews in Europe in the war (the real one) from the Nazi's. When their neighbours were randomly taken from the street and hung on lamp posts as a deterrent for hiding same. On top of being hung those same hangees did also lose their jobs. I am sure they deeply regretted losing their jobs. I'm suggesting to all, the 'war' is over. It was over 30 years ago. How many of you drive Japanese cars or BMW's - you know - the stylised prop logo that was responsible for the destruction of thousands of Boeings over Europe?

I have more empathy than any will know for 'the war' but let's put things into perspective. It was 30 years ago and it happened. No one can undo it and I recently read Chickenhawk for about the 5th time.

Can people please get back to digging up YouTube videos of lesbian Cabin Crew Training Managers and moustached gravelly voiced senior Captains who regaled us all with stories of the Wild West when there was nothing on the clocks but the makers name....

[RodH]

Back in the old days we did have to dress nicely if we wanted to be upgraded to First Class whilst travelling on a Staff Concession ticket. It was always nice to see nicely dressed people on board although there was one Check in guy in Adelaide who did take it a bit too far.
He always insisted on male Staff wearing a tie , if no tie no upgrade and he used to make a really big issue of it !!
This guy was a real pain in the ass and it used to give me so much pleasure to walk up to the desk when travelling on a " must ride " but in Civvies wearing a tie.
He used to smirk when he saw us approaching as he thought he had gotten his way but as soon as I handed my Must Ride ticket to him I removed my tie and it completely deflated this pedantic person. The look on his face was of absolute horror but there was nothing he could do.
This may all seem a bit petty but so was his attitude!!!!
It was just one of the little things that made flying wonderful and going to work a great pleasure.
We truly had the Halcyon days then.
Oh !! how things have changed and not for the better either!!!


:D:)

[Fantome]

The standard of passenger dress of many who fly airlines today is no standard at all. Then you see the twits on certain popular TV shows where airheads come on and say that the only thing that matters is dressing entirely how you like with no tolerance of anyone who dares suggest otherwise, so there's no expectation that presentability will ever count for anything again. There are many retired airline pilots, engineers and cabin crew who would rather drive between cities than catch the squirter.

Seems the Italians in general have not lost their flair for style.

[Ida down]

I can only thank Aviation for giving me the life I had. Joined TAA aged 19 years. Thought DC3 was huge. Learnt my trade from the returned bomber pilots, young men who were old men, and had seen to much. Went to PNG and flew the best years of my life, with some of the best pilots ever, returned to MEL, and sent with a former bomber command pilot Peter Kausman and VH MIN, to Boulia to work for the Govt via Mineral And Mining, to criss cross the country, for three years with Scientists and equipment aboard looking for minerals. Why oh why did I not invest what little I had! Sent back line flying, bought house in MEL, they assured me I was now staying there, then promptly moved me back to PNG, as a C and T Capt. Sold house in MEL, so they promptly moved me back. (you older blokes would know the story) do the right thing by us and we will stick the bat up, every single time. As far as I know nothing has changed. 89, saw me pack up the family for Europe, and a 747 endorsement, and finally back home to become one of QF's oldest S/O ever! Now watch the kids fly, and hear their stories, familiar stories, different A/C, different people, but the same complaints! Just be grateful you are part of it, you, me are the lucky ones.

[drharis2]

What a great videoclip.:)

[Ida down]

What a sad little person. Arrogant, rude, ignorant. This site brings back memories for many of us, it's hardly the site, for you to take out your frustrations. You are obviously not an a achiever. Shame. Any info about the age of pilots in those days, can be found at the TAA museum in Melbourne, in fact any info you require. Nineteen year old pilots were common, and let me state, showed maturity, even then. You would have failed miserably.

[ACMS]

Flyboatnorth:---I think your boat has sunk pal. Move along you ignoramus.

[Pinky the pilot]

Flyboat North; I have been a pprune member for quite some time now, but I can honestly state that I have never ever read a post with such venom, bitterness, hatred and twisted content such as yours.:sad:

I enjoy reading posts from ppruners such as Ida down and Teresa green (where is he these days?)

If you do not, feel free to skip over them, but do not denigrate such people.:=

[Iron Bar]

Nasty little prick isn't he.

[Paragraph377]

C'mon lads, this thread has been running for some time. I started it originally not for fighting purposes nor to make individual arguments. I'm just an old timer reminiscing about the old days and the absolute joy the flying brought us. We flew for a living, earned good money and absolutely loved handling the yoke every day possible. I'm getting old now, ill, and living on borrowed time. Can't we just enjoy some great memories while sharing them with some of the younger bucks? Please no arguing, snipes, or anything personal.

Para

[PW1830]

Gets the (smallest) Tool of the Year Award. In the absence of a life of any sort.

[Eastwest Loco]

BUT! He will never get haemorrhoids.

He's a perfect arsehole.

EWL

[Captain Gidday]

Speaking of which:
On my first trip out as a trainee S/O, early 70's on a 707, the F/E introduced himself "G.day, I'm Jim. I'm the stage coach driver". Not wanting to appear ignorant, or anything, I kept my puzzlement to myself. Perhaps he had an unusual hobby?
<You old blokes know this, but I'll continue>
Days later up the track, in the bar at The Gulf in Bahrain, I broached the subject with him about his unusual hobby.
"Nah" he said, "when I go to work, I have to sit all day between two arseholes."

God bless the Purple Empire. They always knew the location of the darkest bars and the cheapest beers.

[Propstop]

FBN
I have been in this industry all my life having lived on an airport while growing up and having been an Aircraft Engineerfor 50 years. I count myself as old school and, having most likely worked with some of the posters here, I have the utmost respect for the views and sentiments expressed here, but I do not necessarily agree with all.
I find it sad that you have used this forum to denigrate all the professionals here whether they be engineers or pilots and continue all your vitriolic attacks on us.
Your experience in this industry????? I do believe is none. I do think EWL has summed you up in a very eloquent manner. Please remember respect is earned and is a two way street.

[Sand dune Sam]

Why do you "Nimrods" keep replying to FBN?... He's a troll... Ignore him FFS.:ugh:

[Ida down]

Fellas thanks for your support. Normally our profession, does not indulge in that sort of behaviour. On a happier note, may I bring to you attention a book many of you would enjoy, in fact could well find yourselves in it. It's called " Taking To The Skies" by Jim Eames. Available on line or in most bookshops, it's a great read, and brings back memories for many, in fact for those who flew from the sixties on, it's a must read. Around twenty dollars on line it's worth every cent.

[Pinky the pilot]

Thanks for that Ida. It is on my `to get` list.:ok:

[Ida down]

Talking about the EW fokkers, I was one the gang of eight who delivered them to Exeter in the UK. We flew out of Tamworth To Darwin, up thru the Far East, Italy (or was it Crete) onto the UK. It was an incredible trip, but most of us had been burnt by 89, hated them leaving Oz, especially the ginger beers who were with us, and used the opportunity to find overseas jobs. There were three aircraft, three LAMES' and eight Captains, all of whom were more then ready to piss on Abeles grave. The job had been given to Aircruise Australia, who were a charter company not involved in the dispute, but it was a crew of very mixed feelings who delivered them. A few of us obtained positions thru Parc Aviation, and stayed OS for some time. Including the Engineers.

[angry ant]

I went looking for flyboats rant, but couldn't find it.

Has it been deleted?

angry ant

[down3gr33ns]

FBN, he's got no testicular fortitude and done a runner. A case of can't tolerate the heat and has probably pulled his posts because he can't stand by them. Can't say I'm the least bit surprised ......................... unless it's the mods who did the right thing to rid this thread of inane ranting. Either way a good outcome.
Now, back to the topic.

[aviatrixie]

Firstly I must say some of the posts in here are golden! :)

I'm on a recent sign up to this site but I have (like many of us!) been reading the postings on the forum for many years :ok:

I spent 9 years with Ansett Australia, and will always remember my time there very fondly. They gave me my start in my career (engineer) an I've never regretted taking my apprenticeship with them. I met some amazing people, some 'interesting' characters and some morons through my time with them, shame what happened but that's business for you...

I look forwards to more stories in here...

[holdingagain]

What about the Quanville Estate behind Nadi Airport, that must have some Aus history

[emeritus]

That's not another name for the old Skylodge Hotel is it?

That place could tell some stories !

Emeritus:E

[holdingagain]

No the Skylodge is near the front airport entrance I think, Qanville or is it Quanville is over the back past the hangar and is supposed to be where the pilots used to live

[mustafagander]

If it's the place I'm thinking of, the ground engineers used to live there. Let your imagination run riot with thoughts of the antics that a bunch of young guys away from home would get up to. And that's not the half of it!! Ah the good old days when we were young and silly!! :ok:

[AEROMEDIC]

That's not another name for the old Skylodge Hotel is it?

That place could tell some stories !

Now where does one begin?

Fond memories though, particularly poolside.

[Pinky the pilot]

Now where does one begin?

Fond memories though, particularly poolside.

Very good, AEROMEDIC; You have aroused one`s curiousity as it were.:ooh:

Care to start spinning the yarns? Suitably censored/redacted/whatever of course!:D:hmm::E

[AEROMEDIC]

Well, on one visit, and for a number of reasons, I had "slept in" on my departure day and waaaay past checkout time. The reception desk hadn't checked before giving my room to a newly arrived guest who opened the door only to find that there were a couple still inside lacking attire and in a compromising position.
A firm but polite phone call had us poolside with our friends and a story with a few laughs.
Well and truly cleaned up, but one of several memorable stories of stays at the Sky Lodge.

[holdingagain]

Nadi Transit Hotel is its current name

[mikedreamer787]

Horny as all hell, closely followed by the 727-200. :}

It was horny alright, but nothing beats a 727 takeoff (especially off 05 at ADL full load to DRW). Went something like this...

gwel7Ulmrvs

Set your speakers up full volume.

[topdrop]

You gotta love the Whispering T Jet. :D:D:D

[Ken Borough]

Don't 'flame' me but it's easy to understand why airport curfews were introduced. That said, it's past time that the issue of curfews and noise abatement were revisited.

[mikedreamer787]

You gotta love the Whispering T Jet. :D:D:DYep, this particular T Jet is near 'n dear to me heart....

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/bf/8e/ed/bf8eed1b76f7c1ff277bd9a42987394e.jpg


And not forgetting the first kero burner I fell in love with earlier.... http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/love/love0004.gif

http://www.aussieairliners.org/dc-9/vh-tjj/1135.186l.jpg

Them's were the days - jets with good-sounding grunt and a graceful signature of burnt kero behind! :ok:

[Ida down]

Or the sound of the Nine. The sexiest little aircraft ever. I loved her uncondtionally.

[Ida down]

It grated, but thank you anyway.

[TrailBoss]

The Good Old Days of TAA, I remember them well...

It is not often that an airline gives you the use of an aircraft for a couple of weeks to wander around Australia on a sight seeing tour, but back in May of 67 that is virtually what happened.

I was a F.27 F/O at the time and received a telephone call from a senior TAA captain – now deceased - to inquire as to whether or not I would be interested in doing such a flight. Needless to say, my reply was a resounding, “Yes.”

It started with a lunch at the prestigious Athenaeum Club in Melbourne ostensibly to meet a guy called Bill, the then Chairman of The Manufacturer’s Group of Victoria (TMG) to discuss the planned flight, but in reality I think it was more about being able to pass muster. Choice of the two Flight Attendants to make up the crew was left up to the captain. I have to add that he made a very good choice.

We departed Melbourne for Williamstown on the morning of the 24th flying VH-TFL a Mark 2 F.27 on what was to become the first leg of an unforgettable trip.

On arrival we were bussed to Newcastle for a tour of the foundry and steel works followed by lunch with the city’s dignities. Early in the trip it was made quite clear that the crew were to be included in all tours and hospitality afforded. Later in the afternoon we carried on to Brisbane for a night stop.

Day two took us to Townsville and Mount Isa for a tour of what at the time was the largest copper mining and smelting operation in the country.

By this time we were only using two of the four hotel rooms booked for crew accommodation, and the captain and I were most certainly not sharing…

Darwin was next on the list and with multiple tours and events to attend we stayed for two nights.

We departed Darwin early on day six, stopping first at Kununarra for a look at the Ord Dam and river system, before flying on to Derby for a tour of the Windjana Gorge National Park.

Day seven was a busy day, flying first to Port Hedland, named after the Master of the sailing vessel Mystery which arrived off the coast in 1863. After viewing the ore loading facilities it was off to the mine at Mount Tom Price itself.

Now you have to remember that this was back in 1967 and whilst the mine and the rail to the coast were established and operational, it was still early days. The airstrip at Tom Price was made of compacted red ore tailings and the surrounding country desert like.

Now the F.27 didn’t have an APU and the OAT was already in the 30s, and in spite of urging them otherwise our two hosties decided that they had enough of looking at mines and were going to stay aboard the aircraft, and use the time to wash each others hair.

Leaving them to their chosen endeavours we boarded the tour bus and headed off to view the mine. About thirty minutes later we arrived at the workers accommodation area and to our surprised found that we parked alongside a ladies hair salon.

Later on returning to the aircraft, which by now was baking in the p.m. sun we didn’t have the heart to tell the girls that they could have spent the time having their hair done and relaxing in air-conditioned comfort.

That evening we left Tom Price for Carnarvon.

Day eight was probably the most interesting day for me as after a short flight to Exmouth we were going to visit, what at that time, was the very secretive U.S. Navy’s VLF Communications Base, and used for communicating with their nuclear submarines in the Indian Ocean.

On the surface the station consisted of a block house and thirteen antenna towers, the tallest called Tower Zero is 387 m (1,270 ft) tall. Six towers, each 304 metres tall, are placed in a hexagon around Tower Zero. The other six towers, which are each 364 metres tall, are placed in a larger hexagon around Tower Zero.

On entering the block house, which is just a guard room and the entrance to a lift system, we descended some distance below ground level before arriving at our destination - the main control room – which was like a scene from a James Bond movie.

I was particularly interested in the Helix Room, in effect a massive loading coil enabling the transmission of a massive 1 megawatt 19.8 kHz signal from that surface antenna array.

After spending another night in Carnarvon it was off to Perth where everyone enjoyed a couple of free days.

Over the remaining four days we flew to Kalgoorlie, Forrest, Whyalla and Broken Hill visiting mining and ship building enterprises and throughout the trip enjoyed fine foods and the best of wine.

Arriving Melbourne on the evening of day fourteen having logged a total of twenty hours of flight time we bid our passengers fair well, and kissed our girls for the final time.

Yes, those were the days... :ok:

[ACMS]

Just kissed?

Come on spill.....:}:ok:

[RodH]

Are you insinuating that we did " naughty " things with the Hosties in those days ?? NEVER , well hardly ever , well sometimes . One must remember , it was the swinging sixties and things were quite liberal when it came to enjoying the opposite sexes company.
What wonderful days they were !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just a distant memory now but a very pleasant one.
:E:E:E:E

[Ida down]

When I was an F/O, I always thought it was the Skipper who got lucky. When I got the forth stripe, nothing improved, so I finally realised it was the Flighty putting in the hard yards, as he popped down the back ( for technical reasons) as we two dumbos sat up the front working, he was setting himself up for the night. No wonder they got rid of them.

[Fris B. Fairing]

This aeroplane is with the Queensland Air Museum at Caloundra. Unfortunately it is missing its original Fokker data plate. It was probably removed circa 2007 when it was decided that the aeroplane (by then VH-WAN) would be parted out. In such a case one might hope to find the data plate with the aircraft records but it was not amongst the recently discovered Australian log books. Therefore it is likely that it was "souvenired" while the aircraft was parked at Tamworth 2001-2008. If anyone knows where it is QAM would be very pleased to get it back. No names, no pack drill.

As an aside, it is believed that this aeroplane is the longest serving aircraft of any type in Ansett ownership. It was delivered in 1966 and was owned by Ansett until close of business in 2001. Although leased out from 1989, it was owned by Ansett for its entire career.

[emeritus]

Would have thought that the DC3 ABR would have laid claim to being the oldest a/c in the fleet.

Entered service with ANA in Oct 38 and became an Ansett a/c in 57/58 when they took over ANA and was still owned by AN when the company collapsed.

Emeritus

[Fris B. Fairing]

Emeritus

Yes I too thought that ABR would hold the record but the numbers don't support it.

Technically ABR did not come into Ansett ownership until 21 October 1957 when Ansett took-over ANA. ABR operated its last commercial service on 27 December 1972 although the aircraft remained in Ansett ownership right up until close of business in 2001. That's 15 years in service. If you add its ANA service that brings it up to 34 years.

F.27 VH-FNQ was in service from 1966 to 2001 which is 35 years, all in Ansett ownership. The only other contender that I can think of is Sandringham VH-BRC but that was in service for a mere 22 years.

It surprised me too.

Rgds

[hiltonbaby]

The smell of the breakfast. The thud thud thud as you taxied out after overnighting in a winter Hobart. I was a junior burger in those days but it seems like only yesterday.

[Ida down]

Captain Peter Korsman passed away at 1000 this morning, 8 Sept. Known to so many of you, and in command of the above aircraft, many times, Peter was a Lancaster bomber pilot who made it home, despite being injured on more then one occasion. He then went on to become one of TAA's finest. A keen fisherman, Peter was known for turning up at Flt Ops with a bag full of fish, and some hapless crew would have to fly around with their fish all day, counting on the goodwill of the flight attendants to keep them cold. Funeral on the 17 Sept, probably in BNE. Will post details when they come to hand. RIP Peter, it was a pleasure to fly with you.

[JetRangerJunkie]

Hi Centaurus,
would you remember the 34 Sqn VIP Viscount radio callsigns?
I have A6-435 as VM-NSL but I don't have A6-436.
Cheers.
Greg

[Captain Sherm]

Those photos above......wow.

There's never been an aeroplane like my beloved 777....just wonderful.....do anything, anywhere.

BUT despite that......there's just NOTHING like those two, the 727 and the DC9. Such an absolute privilege to have much time in both front seats on each of the aircraft pictured. And of course being in my 30's when I got my command on the "9" then the 727, I knew it all. Sigh......

[Centaurus]

I have A6-435 as VM-NSL but I don't have A6-436.

Sorry, Greg. Although I flew both Viscounts I haven't a clue about their call-signs. Too long ago. I do remember A6-435 had a weather radar set that could be slid up and down at the rear of the radio consol and was for a flight engineer to use. The cockpit was set up to carry an FE in USA. A second screen was for pilot use.

[FullOppositeRudder]

..... nothing beats a 727 takeoff (especially off 05 at ADL full load to DRW).I remember it well from the other side of the fence, indeed the other side of Tapleys Hill Road - Marineland Caravan Village, in an onsite van with the kids on summer holidays. At about 06:55 the procession would make their way down along F6 - the whistle of 12 or more JT8s in loose synchronisation - music to the waking ears.

Then as they turned one by one onto 05 and the big levers were moved, the roar was satisfying beyond clinical explanation as the caravan walls vibrated in sympathy and occasionally the crockery would rattle.

So fortunate to have lived in that era; you just can't explain that to kids these days..... :)

When the 727s and DC-9s went, plane spotting lost a lot of its magic. The ANx and TBx series were all well known and loved by us, especially TBK with its Central Australian colour scheme at one point.

Happily it escaped the furnace - these days it's outside an office building in Stilling, Denmark.

VH-TBK Boeing 727-276A (http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-727/vh-tbk/vhtbk.html)

[RodH]

I was searching through youtube last night and came across this great video of Ansett-Ana in the 60's. For those of you who were around then it's a 20 minute story about a flight plan for a L188 flight. The Crew were: Capt. Kev McFadden , F/O Peter Smith and F/E Bill Fedricks. I had the pleasure of flying on the B7272 with these guys and they were great to be with. Kev McFadden was a very senior Capt , at one stage he was # 1 on the seniority list for quite a few years.
I did my B727 school in 1965 and flew with the most senior and " old timers " of aviation and heard some incredible stories about flying in the 30's from some of them. Wonderful aviators with truly great Airmanship.
Peter became a senior B727 Capt. and Bill was a very long time serving F/E.
It's a great video shot at Eagle Farm and shows the old DCA Flight Planning Buildings , the Ansett-Ana Igloo Terminal and of course the L188.
It sure brought back some very pleasant memories and I hope it does for some who were around then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soGo4VwZ3Z8
:ok::ok::ok:

[megle2]

Excellent, twenty minutes well spent for me

[Old Fella]

RodH, thanks for putting the YouTube link up. Never operated the L188 but had 10 years on the C130 (A-E & H models) and the L1011. Lockheed sure knew how to provide a good working invironment. The B707 and B747's were like dog kennels in comparison regarding room for tech crew.

[TrailBoss]

Lockheed sure knew how to provide a good working invironment.

And the Electra had the most efficient aircon system ever built into an aircraft...

[ansettman]

Let me say from the outset, I am not nor have been a pilot but, as a 35 year veteran of Ansett, prior to the collapse I remember those ads. Thanks for the memories. It's a pleasure to be able to visit this site and read the posts.

[Eastwest Loco]

My "uncle" Ken "Boomer" Collins, a TN legend as some of the older gents in this location may recall loved the Leccy. Lockheed also asked him through TN top test how it would handle if props were placed into reverse in level cruise. TN agreed and Ken did too. Apparently it was interesting but not dangerous according to Ken, but this is a comment from a bloke who used to dive his Mustang to intercept V1 rocket bombs, get the wingtip under their stub wing and bank away thereby turning the bomb over and dumping it into the Channel.

It was a pilot's and FE's dream as he said.

My second ever flight as a spotty little Airline brat was SYD MEL on Tango Lima Charlie after a day in Sydney with my Dad who was a TN LAME.

Sat in the 1st class lounge at the rear.

Damned fine aeroplane is all I can think and after the pure grunt of Tango Juliet Alpha on my 1st ever flight that morning, I could still appreciate the refined class of the Electra. It made a nice sound all its own.

Best all

EWL

[Ascend Charlie]

Electra seemed to fly on the pure grunt of the engines, because there was very little apparent wing area.:confused:

[56P]

Ah, now you're talking about the lady we all loved, Spent 10 lovely years on her in both left and right seats.

[emeritus]

Ah yes. Spent 6 years on the Electra.

I'm sure you will not find a pilot who has a bad word to say about them.:ok: :D

[Pinky the pilot]

who used to dive his Mustang to intercept V1 rocket bombs, get the wingtip under their stub wing and bank away thereby turning the bomb over and dumping it into the Channel.


He would have had to be good at judging when to commence his dive to be able to intercept the V1 as only the Tempest V was supposedly able to catch it in level flight, and then only from a short way astern!

And the poor old Mustang would probably have been at 'War Emergency Power*' as well!:eek:

* 66" MAP and (I think) 3,000rpm.:ooh:

As a student at a boarding school in Adelaide in the late 60's I'd occasionally hang around Adelaide Airport of a Sunday afternoon hoping to be shown through some of those aircraft. Will never forget being shown through an Electra (there were about four of us College Students if I remember correctly) by one of the "Hosties' and being given the rundown in the cockpit by one of the Pilots!:ok:

In the (possibly) regrettably unlikely event that the two people concerned are still with us, and perchance reading these pages; Thank you Sir and Ma'am!:ok::ok:

[ad-astra]

Not a WW2 historian but the Mustang v V1 Bomb story caused me to have a deeper look on the internet.

I think you will find a lot of Mustangs intercepted the V1


"One hero of the V1 campaign was a Polish Warrant Officer pilot named Tadeusz Szymanski, who was on constant Diver duty during July 44 in his Mustang belonging to 316 Squadron at West Malling. One incident involved a frantic chase across Kent on the evening of July 12th, when he was out of ammunition and flew alongside to take a closer look.
"The thing was jerking along and the elevator was flapping with each vibration of the crude jet motor" he said. "I noticed that on the front of the bomb was a silly little propeller. It looked ridiculous. I decided to tip it off balance." Wing under wing, he tried to flip it over but it proved stubborn and just carried on. Szymanski was more stubborn and he made 11 more attempts but they both continued to fly on side by side. "I tried a different manoeuvre, this time hitting very hard with my wingtip as I went into a loop. When I recovered, I found to my dismay that it was still flying, but I had turned it upside-down!" Suddenly, the bomb went into a steep spin and plunged to the ground. Szymanski, more than pleased, sped off home to West Malling.
Szymanski went on to intercept many more V1's and his heroics earned him the admiration of the Polish leader General Sikorski. Later in life Tadek, as he was known, settled in Norwich with his family and became a printer. He died in February 1992.
What a courageous man!"

And from Wiki

"In daylight, V-1 chases were chaotic and often unsuccessful until a special defence zone was declared between London and the coast, in which only the fastest fighters were permitted. The first interception of a V-1 was by F/L J. G. Musgrave with a No. 605 Squadron RAF Mosquito night fighter on the night of 14/15 June 1944. Between June and 5 September 1944, a handful of 150 Wing Tempests shot down 638 flying bombs,[28] with No. 3 Squadron RAF alone claiming 305. One Tempest pilot, Squadron Leader Joseph Berry (501 Squadron), shot down 59 V-1s, the Belgian ace Squadron Leader Remy Van Lierde (164 Squadron) destroyed 44 (with a further nine shared) and W/C Roland Beamont (see above) destroyed 31.

The next most successful interceptors were the Mosquito (623 victories),[29] Spitfire XIV (303),[30] and Mustang (232). All other types combined added 158. Even though it was not fully operational, the jet-powered Gloster Meteor was rushed into service with No. 616 Squadron RAF to fight the V-1s. It had ample speed but its cannon were prone to jamming, and it shot down only 13 V-1s.[31]

In late 1944 a radar-equipped Vickers Wellington bomber was modified for use by the RAF's Fighter Interception Unit as an Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft.[32] Flying at an altitude of 4,000 feet (1,200 m) over the North Sea, it directed Mosquito fighters charged with intercepting He 111s from Dutch airbases that sought to launch V-1s from the air."

[Flava Saver]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67985312@N08/35248162212/

Former TAA 727-76 VH-TJD is still alive and well up in Europe, at a ripe 51 years old. Fantastic.

[Centaurus]

Them's were the days - jets with good-sounding grunt and a graceful signature of burnt kero behind!

The Air Nauru 727 taking off from Nauru. What an awe-inspiring sight and sound. Island houses among the palm trees lined either side of the 5200 ft runway copped the lot but no complaints The traffic cop on his motor bike stopping the traffic at each runway end. The noise of the JT8D's was incredible but the population didn't mind because it was the pilots and flight engineers of Air Nauru who were the life blood of that tiny island bringing in from overseas, food, medical supplies, mail, bank notes, car parts and new comers on contracts. The whole length of the runway was needed for take off and landing and there was no shortage of the ghouls holding their breath wondering if a disaster would occur.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Former TAA 727-76 VH-TJD is still alive and well up in Europe, at a ripe 51 years old. Fantastic. Incredible! She was the 727 I flew on (as pax of course). Thank you for the info. :ok:

Here some pics to remind us how she looked in those days.

http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-727/vh-tjd/vhtjd.htmlhttp://

FOR

[AerialPerspective]

Some great memories there Paragraph337.

A sad irony is the second clip titled "Absolutely" which used Vanessa Amorosi's "Shine". When she wrote the song originally the lyrics were "everyone you see, everyone you know is gonna die".:{
... and before that, Ansett had that vacuous and cerebrally challenged ad with the guy messing up his hair in the mirror in a toilet at the Sydney Domestic Terminal and the soundtrack was "My Generation" with the line "... I hope I die before I get old..."

[AerialPerspective]

Centaurus,
There is a major flaw in the theme of your post re the good ole days.
If it was a Qantas B737 that your mate went to the flight deck on as opposed to an Australian B737, then given that this puts the date as early as 1994 and as late as September 2001 (when cockpit visits were banned), all Qantas B737s were flown by captains who hade never been through the process. All captains were either ex TAA/Australian pilots who had returned after the 1989 dispute or other pilots who had been recruited far and wide in the aftermath of the dispute. The major expansion in Qantas domestic flying was post 1993 with the B767 and the major expansion in Qantas B737 flying was post 2001 ( the demise of Ansett). It wasn't until post Ansett that the pilots who had been through the process became B737 captains.
Good smear attempt but not up to scrutiny.:=:=
I was just thinking the same thing... I wish people would stop referring to domestic in that era as 'Qantas'... if it was 'Qantas' it was probably wearing a blue kangaroo on the tail and not 'Qantas' in the real sense at all.

[AerialPerspective]

or were they saluting the aeroplane and its passengers?
I remember seeing it only rarely... as a gesture by staff on the Ramp - for example, when the last Air NZ DC-8 pushed back from MEL and started to taxi, the QF Ramp and Engineering staff lined up on the equipment line and saluted... my guess is they were saluting an old aluminium friend and not the crew.

[AerialPerspective]

Can anyone remember the TAA 727 that had an outline of a guy with the background of, now, Uluru on the fin? I was a LAME with Tatars at the time and remember a bit of a kufufal when some joker adorned the image of the bloke with a toggle and two! What a hoot!
"Central Australian"... was it the brown coloured livery... the other one was called the "Coastal Australian" or something similar and was mainly blue???

[Checklist Charlie]

TBK was the "Centralian" and I don't immediately recall which Diesel was the "Coral Islander".

Operations Control staff were critisized when as a matter of simple operational management TBK operated SYD/ASP as TN56 with Lindy Chamberlain onboard.

Think about it.

CC.

[34R]

I think the Coral Islander was TJL???

[Flava Saver]

Yep, TJL Coral Islander. TBK Central Australian.

[kikatinalong]

Around the early 00s, Flying along, my Capt and I were reminiscing about the F27. Me as a kid riding my bike out to the airport to watch the morning flight come in and depart on my way to school and he as an FO, and later a Capt with TAA on it. Here's a couple of the tales he told me.

The first, was a departure out of ISA on a hot day going back to TSV via all the ports. The Dispatcher hands them the loadsheet and says "The Fokkers chocker ocker".

The other that springs to mind was a run down the coast from CNS. 2 blokes get on with a couple of mud crabs each in a box and asks one of the hosties if she could keep them cool in the galley. "No problems" she says and stores the box in the galley and off they go. Later in the flight she can't remember who's crabs they were, so she makes a PA announcement: "Would the gentlemen who gave me the crabs in Cairns please make yourself known by pressing the call bell above your head"

kika

[john_tullamarine]

Guess what ? ... exactly the same tales in AN except that the fokker's chokka was most places and the crabs were noted to be flying coastal in Tasmania.

[kikatinalong]

I pretty much guessed it was one of those insert airline here stories. Fun nonetheless.

Kika

[Centaurus]

Just read this enjoyable thread from the start.
About ground staff saluting... at TN Lae for each DC6B departure the traffic/cargo staff handling the aircraft used to line up abeam of the cockpit. The Traffic Officer, with hat on, handling the docs used to salute the aircraft when it started to taxi.

Similar scene on Nauru in the 1980's when the President of Nauru Hammer De Roburt was about to depart (or arrive) Nauru for one of his many flights on Air Nauru. The Heads of the various Public Service appointments would be all lined up on the hot tarmac wearing their ties waiting for the President to arrive in his Bentley limousine. He was rarely on time so they had to sweat it out. As the aircraft taxied for takeoff everyone would wave and stand in line until the aircraft departed. Ties would then be removed and it would be back to work.

[boaccomet4]

To set the record straight VH-TBK B727 was painted in Ayrs Rock on it (The Central Australian) and VH-TJL DC9-30 series was painted with a Barrier Reef theme (Coral Ilsander)
I too saw the DC9 parked in Sydney with genitals painted on the couple that were painted on the tail fin holding hands. Was a great source of amusement for all until head office found out.
What was somewhat politically incorrect was when TBK turned up with a Dingo painted on the top of Ayrs Rock on the side of the fuselarge during the Lindy Chamberlain proceedings.
Just as well TBK was parked at an aerobridge but still again it was somewhat amusing to most.

[Turnleft080]

http://www.taamuseum.org.au/Images/Pictures/LV_727ayersrock.jpghttp://www.taamuseum.org.au/Images/Pictures/LV_DC9Coral.JPGhttp://www.taamuseum.org.au/Images/Pictures/LV_GoldcoastTail.jpghttp://www.taamuseum.org.au/Images/Pictures/LV_GoldCoaster.jpg
Their was meant to be a 3rd and 4th colour scheme. The 3rd scheme was going to be called the Goldcoaster. pictured.
For the past 5 years or so, I wish Qantas would put the rumour to fruition of painting the 4 schemes on the B717s.
Since QF love retro schemes why not paint up a 717 into the original TAA delivery colours (blue T) then another in
(blue cheatline white T) and a orange/blue Trans Australia. Plus a 737 deserves a Australian Airlines scheme.
Not asking for much. Aviation needs a splash of colour.
After all QF own the rights to all that material.

[3 Holer]

Speaking of the "Way WE Were" there was a little deja vu when I went to book tickets to Melbourne to Perth last week. Cheapest QF was $1400 (plus,plus) Return and the "low cost carrier"
Jetstar was $1299 Return (return was on the red-eye!). Yep, the way we were alright when there was the duopoly of the Two Airline policy!

Don't EVER underestimate the power of competition!!!!

[aussieflyboy]

Speaking of the "Way WE Were" there was a little deja vu when I went to book tickets to Melbourne to Perth last week. Cheapest QF was $1400 (plus,plus) Return and the "low cost carrier"
Jetstar was $1299 Return (return was on the red-eye!). Yep, the way we were alright when there was the duopoly of the Two Airline policy!

Don't EVER underestimate the power of competition!!!!

Blame the WA Premier for that. You can’t expect the airlines to be able to get flights into their schedule at a drop of a hat. Crew need to be trained, baggage handlers/catering/front of house staff need to be stood back up and the aircraft may need to come out of storage to complete these flights before they can be added to the schedule. Remember all airlines prices go up as availability goes down. They had no warning to the border opening.

Don’t believe everything you hear in the media.

[boaccomet4]

For me the golden era was the 1960's and 1970's Even though the two airline policy existed both TAA, EWA, Ansett and Air New South Wales worked together to provide the best customer service. Ansett, TAA and Qantas had their own catering sections, ground staff, engineers etc. TAA and Ansett had a spare parts pool(having pretty much identical aircraft due to the Two Airline policy. Where the domestic staff seemed to work together and also socialised together outside work hours, to me, there appeared to be a different culture in QF as it was purely longhaul. There certainly were some characters in the domestic carriers and compared to today we were often politically incorrect but it was all in good fun.
Even thought the Viscount presented challenges to both pilots and the engineering staff. As a passenger it was delight to fly in even though I was young. But as Rudy Camillo once told me 'its was a terrible way to put perfect four rolls royce darts into the air.'
If a TAA aircraft went u/s then Ansett staff would try and accomodate passengers on the next available flight and vice versa. Same with mishandled baggage.
Learnt so much from the crew operating prior the the 1989 pilots dispute. Such a waste of talent and hand flying skills that had been passed on from the old timers who had gone onto RPT ops after WW11 and leant from their experiences.
For me it was a time when all staff took pride in their expertise.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

For me it was a time when all staff took pride in their expertise.

Importantly, and in stark contrast to today, so did the company.

[Paragraph377]

http://www.taamuseum.org.au/Images/Pictures/LV_727ayersrock.jpghttp://www.taamuseum.org.au/Images/Pictures/LV_DC9Coral.JPGhttp://www.taamuseum.org.au/Images/Pictures/LV_GoldcoastTail.jpghttp://www.taamuseum.org.au/Images/Pictures/LV_GoldCoaster.jpg
Their was meant to be a 3rd and 4th colour scheme. The 3rd scheme was going to be called the Goldcoaster. pictured.
For the past 5 years or so, I wish Qantas would put the rumour to fruition of painting the 4 schemes on the B717s.
Since QF love retro schemes why not paint up a 717 into the original TAA delivery colours (blue T) then another in
(blue cheatline white T) and a orange/blue Trans Australia. Plus a 737 deserves a Australian Airlines scheme.
Not asking for much. Aviation needs a splash of colour.
After all QF own the rights to all that material.
Now you’re talking! If anything, Aussies are nostalgic (even though I am a Kiwi and now honorary Aussie). It would be great to see some of that draft livery or even some old used livery replicated on some of QF’s fleet. The 717 would be perfect. It’s a concept that probably somebody like Strong James would have considered had he been QF CEO today, but unfortunately the wee Irishman would have a meltdown at the mere thought of those extra thousands of dollars.

My memories of DC 9’s, 727’s and DC 10’s will always be joyful.

[Saintly]

I miss Skywest (a big hello to all former Skywest emoyees) and flying on the F50 aircraft to CVQ. Getting served nice hot food and Dome coffee....great times. Flight time was around 1hr and 50mins to 2hrs. The CVQ ground crew were good (and still are).

I even remember flying with Ansett WA on the BAe 146 and F28 to CVQ as well. CVQ hasn't had jet operations since the early 1990s.

But yeah I still miss Ansett, still the best airline I've flown with.

Cheers.

[neville_nobody]

It would be great to see some of that draft livery or even some old used livery replicated on some of QF’s fleet. The 717 would be perfect. It’s a concept that probably somebody like Strong James would have considered had he been QF CEO today, but unfortunately the wee Irishman would have a meltdown at the mere thought of those extra thousands of dollars.

Just stick a rainbow in the background and Alan will give you a blank cheque

[deja vu]

Airfares aside, what I miss was the fantastic experience flying domestically was, a real pleasure. Today flying is to be avoided at all costs if possible, the horror starts in the car park and just gets worse from there.

[PoppaJo]

Airfares aside, what I miss was the fantastic experience flying domestically was, a real pleasure. Today flying is to be avoided at all costs if possible, the horror starts in the car park and just gets worse from there.
I remember my old folks went out and purchased an outfit just for the flight. It was a formal occasion.

Some rock up these days practically naked. The stuff that I have seen of late walking through the the forward door...there are no words.

[Retired Mobi LAME]

Now you’re talking! If anything, Aussies are nostalgic (even though I am a Kiwi and now honorary Aussie). It would be great to see some of that draft livery or even some old used livery replicated on some of QF’s fleet. The 717 would be perfect. It’s a concept that probably somebody like Strong James would have considered had he been QF CEO today, but unfortunately the wee Irishman would have a meltdown at the mere thought of those extra thousands of dollars.

My memories of DC 9’s, 727’s and DC 10’s will always be joyful.
I'm not sure which aircraft it was but one of the vortex generators on one side of the vertical stab was situated on an interesting position in the male's anatomy.
As for interesting liveries don't forget the Impulse cocky.

[Centaurus]

Back in the early 1950's Ansett and TAA had DC3's. At Townsville the main runway was 02 /20 which in those days ran close to the RAAF control tower and the hangars of the Lincoln squadron. Later, that runway became a taxi way and a new runway to the west of the old runway came into being.

TAA had a crazy SOP of three point landings (the chief pilot was ex wartime RAAF). Ansett did tail high wheelers. Whenever TAA were coming in the RAAF tower controller would alert the airmen working on the tarmac who would down tools to watch the TAA DC3 try for a three pointer. Invariably the landing would result in a series of tyre screeching swerves because the DC3 was not the sort of aircraft you three point unless you were quick on your feet. The troops on the tarmac would cheer at each swerve.

. The Ansett pilots would grease the tail high wheeler time and again with no drama while the troops hardly bothered looking. Eventually there must have been a new chief pilot because TAA changed to tail high wheelers to emulate Ansett and no one bothered watching anymore. This is not an old wives tale. I was there and watched the daily drama. I knew from experience the folly of trying to do three point landings in RAAF Dakotas unless you had ballast in the tail compartment.

[HillpigSmytheIII]

WHEN MEN WERE MEN AND 707's ROAMED THE EARTH



In the Age of the 'water wagon' 707's...

That jet’s smoke was from the 1,700 pounds of water injection the J-57s and freighter JT-3's used for takeoff. (Go to the overrun and suck the gear up). Those were the good ole days! Pilots back then were men that didn't want to be women or girly men.



Pilots all knew who Jimmy Doolittle was. Pilots drank coffee, whiskey, smoked cigars, and didn't wear digital watches. They carried their own suitcases and brain bags, like the real men they were. Pilots didn't bend over into the crash position multiple times each day in front of the passengers at security so that some no-class government agent could probe for tweezers or fingernail clippers, or too much toothpaste.



Pilots did not go through the terminal impersonating a caddy pulling a bunch of golf clubs, computers, guitars, and feed bags full of tofu and granola on a sissy-trailer. Wearing no hat and having granny glasses hanging on a pink string around their pencil necks, while talking to their personal trainer on the cell phone!!!



Being a Captain was as good as being the King in any movie. In my youth, all the Stewardesses were young, attractive, single women that were proud to be combatants in the sexual revolution. They didn't have to turn sideways, grease up, and suck it in to get through the cockpit door. They would blush, and say thank you, when told that they looked good, instead of filing a sexual harassment claim.



The Junior Stewardesses usually shared a room and talked about men .... with no thoughts of substitution. Passengers wore nice clothes and were polite; they could speak, read, AND understand English. They didn't speak gibberish or listen to loud gangsta rap on their IPods. They bathed, and didn't smell like a rotting pile of garbage - in a jogging suit and flip-flops.



Children did not travel alone, commuting between trailer parks. There were no 'Biggest Losers' asking for a seatbelt extension or a Scotch and grapefruit juice cocktail with a twist.



If the Captain decided to throw some offensive, ranting jerk off the airplane, it was done without any worries of a lawsuit or getting fired. Axial flow engines crackled with the sound of freedom and left an impressive black smoke trail like a locomotive burning soft coal. Jet fuel was cheap and once the throttles were pushed forward, they were often left there. After all, it was the jet age and the idea was to go fast (run like a lizard on a hardwood floor).



Except while flying over the deep oceans, "economy cruise" was something in the performance book, but no one knew why or where it was. When the over-speed clacker went off, no one got all tight and scared, because Boeing built their machines out of iron. Nothing was going to fall off and that barber pole sound had the same effect on real pilots then, as Viagra does now for today's new age guys.



There was very little plastic and no composites on the airplanes. Airplanes and women had eye-pleasing symmetrical curves, not a bunch of ugly vortex generators, ventral fins, winglets, flow diverters, tattoos, rings in their nose, tongues, and eyebrows.



Airlines were run by men like C.R. Smith, Juan Trippe, Capt. Eddie, Ted Baker, and Bob Six, who had built their companies virtually from scratch, knew most of their employees by name, and were lifetime airline employees themselves. not pseudo financiers and bean counters who flit from one occupation to another for a few bucks, a better parachute, or a fancier title, while fervently believing that they are a class of beings unto themselves.



And so it was back in the 60's when I was a young airline pilot... and like my youth, it never will be again! – Too Bad!

[SOPS]

Where is the like button when you need it?

[Stationair8]

Another one for the like button.
👍

[greybeard]

Another Like Button.
55 years ago, you know, yesterday it feels like, my Company's Managing Director and founder (retired) would meet most aircraft at the airport, call me by my Christian name and it was polite to pass him an unused Newspaper from the Aircraft.
He could have remembered my name, but as I was very new???, but he had found out and used it.

I can vouch for the above comments, the golden age pre accountants, HR, Poo%$#s, and Hostesses who knew who and what they were and made great use of the differences.

The best has long gone.

[Flava Saver]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1282/718f94a9_945c_4b1e_9c2a_f4bc000bef86_df7989e210a7c8514ca8b93 e9187265d502bedb7.jpeg
A nice warm Cairns day, and people still dressed up with hats.

[ACMS]

Plus 2 for the like button......

:D

[By George]

While I agree with the above sentiments you cannot pushback against change. My dear old dad (long gone) was a wartime pilot and tells me how the older pilots laughed at them flying aeroplanes with enclosed cockpits. 'Real pilots need the wind on their face' they would say. Today's crew have skills that match today's needs. In my final year of flying the heavy iron (2019), I admired the young co-pilots dexterity with the FMC, joining an arc from an off-set track and building these magenta circuits etc. I was only interested in a five mile final and totally incapable of anything complex. My initial command was the 727 and it required great care close to the ground and never called you a 'retard' either. Horses for courses I guess. The next generation, belting about in scram-jet thingies doing Mach 3 will look down on the current generation as a bunch of wimps as well. Nothing stays the same, but the one thing that does disappoint me is the drop in personal standards. I can't understand or comprehend this tattoo craze. To see a pretty girl covered in ink just breaks my heart. The good news is, she would not have the slightest interest in me and vice versa. So no harm done. If I may have a final 'boomer moment', boy did we have fun flying the best aeroplanes ever built!

[Centaurus]

I remember arriving at Townsville in 1953 to be a copilot on the old four engine Lincoln Bomber. The Commanding Officer shook my hand and said nice to have you in the Squadron. He then told me that In the air the captain was addressed as "Skipper" notwithstanding he was a Group Captain or a Sergeant Pilot. Also none of this first officer crap. He was the copilot or second dickie or sometimes the Number Two.

The copilot wasn't given a "leg". He was offered the takeoff or the landing. If given a landing it was considered good manners after landing to say "Thanks for the landing" to the skipper. Never saw that in the airlines. More's the pity because it was a nice touch and an acknowledgment that the captain still carried the can if the copilot thumped it on.
Old fashioned good manners made for a good cockpit atmosphere. There were a few pricks as in any organisation. There was none of this nit-picking and point scoring and calling each other "Mate" that occures occasionally in airline cockpits nowadays.

Exits stage left pronto..

[Dora-9]

boy did we have fun flying the best aeroplanes ever built!

Didn't we ever George? The whole airline (Ansett) was just a fun atmosphere, I thought looking forward to going to work every time was quite normal until I ended up with another airline much further north...

[SIUYA]

What George said:

...boy did we have fun flying the best aeroplanes ever built

:ok:

[mince]

all the Stewardesses were young, attractive, single women that were proud to be combatants in the sexual revolution. They didn't have to turn sideways, grease up, and suck it in to get through the cockpit door. They would blush, and say thank you, when told that they looked good, instead of filing a sexual harassment claim.

Ever thought of running for parliament?

With comments like that you’d fit in very well these days!

[Lookleft]

To indicate just how much times have changed; if you have an airline now with the name "Trans Australia" the "stewardesses" would look pretty but not be going off on mat leave.

[Global Aviator]

To indicate just how much times have changed; if you have an airline now with the name "Trans Australia" the "stewardesses" would look pretty but not be going off on mat leave.

Absolute gold!

I do have great memories of one Ansett 727 flights and great 767 flight.

Now flying is akin to jumping on the train or bus however sometimes cheaper!

[Lookleft]

Going to work was always something to look forward to. No invasive security, no issues with the cabin because experienced flight attendants took care of things and flying with pilots who knew the job. No STARs and ridiculous profiles just 300 kts to 3000' and direct tracking. I don't recall that we had issues that are more prevalent now like misset QNH and cockups on visual approaches. Good luck to the next generation coming through and I am not being sarcastic.

[HillpigSmytheIII]

FS: in a magnificient flying machine!

[HillpigSmytheIII]

`just 300kts to 3,00''?

350kts plus to 1500' was the correect procedure rolling out of the turn in the landing configuration at 300-400' ensuring 40%N1 is set!

[georgetw]

Another Like Button.
55 years ago, you know, yesterday it feels like, my Company's Managing Director and founder (retired) would meet most aircraft at the airport, call me by my Christian name and it was polite to pass him an unused Newspaper from the Aircraft.
He could have remembered my name, but as I was very new???, but he had found out and used it.

I can vouch for the above comments, the golden age pre accountants, HR, Poo%$#s, and Hostesses who knew who and what they were and made great use of the differences.

The best has long gone.
That was landing at Broome and the gentleman was waiting for the paper. In 1966 I was based at Derby and he arrived at the base for lunch. A great man.

[Flava Saver]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1199x733/7c47c3dd_87d8_4b43_a99a_1f9e2c863f1c_b9184485ecf047cdc52921a a4759bfc1d4d8a074.jpeg
Would still love to know why some 737’s and 727’s had the black ring on the nose, and some didn’t.

[Capt Fathom]

Nice shot at Hamilton Island... when it had just one parking bay.

[Capt Fathom]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1859x1324/33dd0d21_1ef3_4606_b16a_b017f4ab8574_64531f4f242f4a9fc669ffb 58f143cd5ab8eb647.jpeg
First service or first 767 into Hamilton Island. Large welcoming committee in front of the terminal and Joh’s 125 centre stage!

[601]

If I may have a final 'boomer moment', boy did we have fun flying the best aeroplanes ever built!
Yes from using a matchbox as a distance measure on a WAC to using satellites thousands of miles away that gives the accuracy of the length of a matchbox.

First service
Well not the first aeroplane. I am afraid that probably went the Islander when the strip was a gravel strip between the channel and Crab Bay.

Joh’s 125

I am not sure that is the Joh Jet. I am sure that all the Qld State Gov aircraft had a Queensland State Flag on the fin.

[kikatinalong]

RE the black ring on the noses of some 72s, 73s and I've also seen it on a few 75s. Years ago I was told that it had something to do with aircraft equipped with VLF Omega. Apparently the antenna was mounted near the radar and it was used to avoid attenuation.

Kika

[By George]

The VLF Omega would drop out in heavy rain. The Department of Changing Names were most concerned and insisted on dual Omega for any Pacific flights. A couple of the aeroplanes were subsequently fitted out with two units. Off we went into the blue and when in heavy rain they both failed.

I was told by a man in a white coat it was something to do with the 'H' type field antenna. All you can do is smile in agreement and pretend you understand.

[Dora-9]

"E" field (named after Ed Field?) and "H" field antennae. All the B737-200's were wired for dual Omegas but normally only carried one, unless you were doing Air Vauatu or Polynesian flights. Supposedly you had one of each antennae with dual Omegas. I thought it was icing, rather than rain, that buggered the signal, George.

[By George]

You could be right Dora-9, but for some reason I thought it was heavy rain. I remember being with PK on the way to VLI and we lost the Omega. I was swearing like a trooper trying to get the bloody things to work again, being in the middle of nowhere. It was not until weeks later I learnt PK was very religious. I felt very bad about that, but to his credit he didn't hold it against me.
At the time the local aviation press hailed the 737-200AV as 'the first computerised aircraft in Australia'. Laughable now when you think of that mickey mouse PDCS and the limitations of the Omega.

[Dora-9]

Laughable now when you think of that mickey mouse PDCS and the limitations of the Omega.

But how about that wonderful FD110 ADI that was so big that you could sit inside it?

Not that I'd ever swear (ahem), but I also discovered that just plain shouting/begging/bursting into tears at the Omegas didn't work either! Nandi - Hilo (all 7:30 of it), with the Omegas in DR mode for 4 hours...

[601]

Not that I'd ever swear (ahem), but I also discovered that just plain shouting/begging/bursting into tears at the Omegas didn't work either! Nandi - Hilo (all 7:30 of it), with the Omegas in DR mode for 4 hours...

You obviously got there?

[Capt Fathom]

Lots of radio stations on the Hawaiian Islands! ADF’s do come in handy on occasions!

[Dora-9]

Lots of radio stations on the Hawaiian Islands! ADF’s do come in handy on occasions!

Of course, once within range the Omegas woke up again.

[Retired Mobi LAME]

"E" field (named after Ed Field?) and "H" field antennae. All the B737-200's were wired for dual Omegas but normally only carried one, unless you were doing Air Vauatu or Polynesian flights. Supposedly you had one of each antennae with dual Omegas. I thought it was icing, rather than rain, that buggered the signal, George.
We're going back in time now. The 737-200 may have used the ADF Sense Antenna which was moulded into the aft wing to fuselage fairing as the VLF/Omega antenna. On the 727-200 it definitely used the ADF Sense Antenna which was a fairing aft of the MLG bay. Oil, dirt and crap from that bay caused no end of problems on the B727.

[Pinky the pilot]

ADF’s do come in handy on occasions!

Indeed! Once spent about two hours in the middle of the night listening to some great 50's and 60's Rock 'n Roll whilst ferrying a Chieftain over part of the GAFA.:ok:

[Dora-9]

The 737-200 may have used the ADF Sense Antenna

Thank you. I've been desperately trying to remember just where the antennae were located - you comment rang a bell.

[boaccomet4]

Reading this thread brings back so many fond memories.
Can still remember my first ride in an airliner in 1958. Ansett-Ana Viscount from Sydney to the Gold Coast. A very formal affair where we all got dressed up to travel. The smell of kerosene as you boarded. The air hostesses in their smart navy blue airforce type uniforms.walking down the aisle with a basket of barley sugar. The scream of the 4 Rolls Royce Darts as you taxied out and tookoff. Then the hot roast meal served in the sky blue melamine dishes. Visiting the flight deck and exploring the aircraft.Then arriving at Coolangatta and being taken by the Ansett-Pioneer bus to the new Chevron Paradise Hotel at Surfers Paradise. From then on we used to travel there for most of our school holidays with both Ansett and TAA. These experiences are what got me hooked on becoming a pilot at a very early age.
Then the next experience was travelling First Class on a BOAC Comet 4 from Sydney to Auckland in 1964. The roar and howl of the 4 Rolls Royce Avons and the acceration and climb out was quite dramatic compared to the Viscount. Then being served several courses by a steward and hostess, fine china, table cloths, smoked salmon, oysters, roast lamb calved in front of you followed by desert and cheese platter. Was presented with a BOAC Junior Jetclub Logbook and wings. Visited the flight deck and it was quite noisy but upon venturing down the back of the aircraft the roar of the Avons was quite deafening.
We returned First Class in a Qantas Electra MK11 VH-ECC commanded by Captain Ashley Gay who was very hospitable when I visited the flight deck.. Breakfast menu in English and French.. The Electra was relatively quiet at the rear, where we were seated, but very noisy up near the props. Encountered some turbulence while i was waiting for a chocolate milk shake to be prepared the the poor young hostie in aqua blue uniform and hat got covered in chocolate quick powder much to the amusementnt of the male stewards. But those were the glory days when travel was expensive but you did it in style either First or Economy.
Would love to know if Captain Ashley Gay flew the QF Flying Boats before he went on to the Electra MK11.