Atlas Identifies Causes of 747’s Landing at Wrong Airport

[1stspotter]

Aviation International News reports on Atlas Air findings on the recent Dreamlifter landing at the wrong airport.

The topic on Pprune about this incident has been closed by the moderator.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/528264-boeing-747-dreamlifter-lands-wrong-airport.html


Atlas Identifies Causes of 747?s Landing at Wrong Airport | Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ainsafety/2014-01-06/atlas-identifies-causes-747s-landing-wrong-airport#.Ussr5JOufZM.twitter)

A part of the article is listed below:

In a crew-training video obtained by AIN, Atlas Air flight operations vice president Jeff Carlson said that a number of intermittent issues with the first officer’s primary flight display earlier in the night-time flight created some skepticism on the part of the pilots about the reliability of the aircraft’s automation system.
&
Carlson said the primary reason for the incident was the flying pilot’s late decision to abandon the instrument approach for a visual approach that required him to hand-fly the aircraft, as well as inadequate monitoring by the other pilot. Also mentioned in the video, which Atlas has not released for public viewing, was ATC’s failure to notice the aircraft descending toward the wrong airport.

Atlas Air now requires pilots to remain on an instrument approach procedure–even in visual conditions–until passing the final approach fix

[SeenItAll]

Evidently Atlas Air (the operator of the Dreamlifter) has created a training video describing how the holes in the swiss cheese aligned to cause the pilots to land it at the wrong airport -- combination of some avionics issues and CRM.

Report: Video describes wrong-airport 747 landing (http://news.yahoo.com/report-video-describes-wrong-airport-747-landing-194105869.html)

[1stspotter]

Curious for the reason why there are nill replies to this news, seeing the many replies just accent the incident happened.
Better move it to another forum

[aviatorhi]

Atlas Air now requires pilots to remain on an instrument approach procedure–even in visual conditions–until passing the final approach fix

Oh good, another airline I once considered respectable can be added to the list of places I'll certainly never work at.

[Fr8Dog]

aviatorhi

Oh good, another airline I once considered respectable can be added to the list of places I'll certainly never work at.

I am sure we will manage without you! :ugh:

[Desert185]

Fr8Dog

So no visuals?

[aviatorhi]

Fr8dog,

I'm sure you will, my point is the fact that companies like yours are forcing the actual flying out of aviation... At this rate a bus driver will need a wider skill set than a jet pilot as you will truly be reduced to a glorified button pusher.

I will also snicker to myself in the cockpit of my aircraft every time I hear a "Giant" crew say they'll need to stay on the approach when the weather is CAVU, you guys are in Asiana territory now.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Intruder]

There is NOTHING preventing a crew from doing a visual approach using instrument procedures. You -- or ATC -- need not have ANY knowledge of the procedures being used in the cockpit. Following the ILS profile is well within the parameters for a visual approach, as would be following the last vector to the final approach course or going direct to the FAF. Either of those options is within the realm of "using instrument procedures"...

[aviatorhi]

How's that kool-aid taste Intruder?

[Desert185]

Intruder

OK, you're at HITOP int on the ZIGGY FOUR into KONT, and the controller asks you if you want the visual to 26L. What do you do?

[Intruder]

If I have the airport in sight or am familiar enough with the area, accept the visual, continue on through Ziggy & Petis using LNAV & VNAV, pick up the ILS if available, and land. If not yet visual, tell him so and continue on the STAR.

Is this a trick question? I haven't flown into ONT in 15 years...

[3pointlanding]

That is the biggest bunch of B.S. I have ever read, but given it is Atlas I am not surprised. Irregardless of GPS or any other nav aid or lack of a tower warning, looking out should give you a clue. Having flown at McConnell for several years the runway is a lot larger and a lot wider, not to mention that it has centerline and touchdown lighting. The other runway, nada on tocuhdown zone lighting and the ramp being closed. He actually though he was Beechcraft! The Boeing facility is quite visible even at night and the Air Force ramp is always lit and very visible from several miles out. This was a complete F.U by the Captain, nothing more, nothing less and would not have happened if he would have just looked outside.

[Fr8Dog]

I will also snicker to myself in the cockpit of my aircraft every time I hear a "Giant" crew

Snicker all you want! I still fly the 400 & -8 the same as I did the 200/300.
And while you fly your little "light twin" for 3 or 4 landings a day, I will be laughing my ass off eating Chinese food in Hong Kong on the company dime.

[Fr8Dog]

aviatorhi

After yesterday's event, I guess you won't be accepting that job offer from Southwest either! :ugh::D

[aviatorhi]

Not sure yet, they haven't come out and done anything stupid like effectively banning visual approaches.

[Fr8Dog]

Not sure yet, they haven't come out and done anything stupid like effectively banning visual approaches.

Neither has Atlas, just to keep them backed up until the FAF. I don't think that is such a bad idea do you? :p

[Desert185]

Just wondering whether you accept a real visual or continue with the arrival-approach, if any. If the visual to Rwy 25R at ANC was in use, there would be no arrival, approach or FAF. The company decision just seems like an illogical restriction for a professional flight crew, but then it is 2014.

Landing on the wrong runway might have been more easily accomplished in the 70's, but with today's technology it becomes a bit more baffling when it occurs. I always marvel at the "fix" decided upon by those in government and management to resolve an issue which was never a majority issue.

[aviatorhi]

Atlas Air now requires pilots to remain on an instrument approach procedure–even in visual conditions–until passing the final approach fix

and this

Neither has Atlas, just to keep them backed up until the FAF. I don't think that is such a bad idea do you?

Are not the same thing. Remaining on an instrument approach procedure would require you to actually remain on the procedure, not having it tuned or identified as a backup.

Also, isn't the prevailing industry standard (partially required by regulation) to always have the LOC/ILS tuned in as a backup?

Or failing that some sort of other useful information displayed to help you get to the runway?

Shouldn't you have been doing what you say all along?

Isn't this new requirement posted in the thread starter something that goes "above and beyond" and into the realm of nonsense?

Four yes answers will suffice.

:ok:

[Fr8Dog]

As I said in my previous post, I do and will continue to fly these aircraft the same way I did on the classic. If I am in the position to fly a visual approach, I will do so. And yes I have always backed myself up with the LOC or ILS just to make sure I don't make the same mistake that these poor guys did. But then you are perfect and I am sure you have never made a mistake in your aviation career. Next time your in the Jet Lag Club in Narita I will buy you a beer for being the ace of the base. Oh that's right, your little airplane doesn't fly that far does it?

[aviatorhi]

I will be laughing my ass off eating Chinese food in Hong Kong on the company dime

your little airplane doesn't fly that far does it?

The true nature of the beast is revealed, a small man with a Napoleon complex. :rolleyes:

It flies far enough, and I sleep in my own bed each night, thank you very much. :p

[CAO]

Must be nice to know everything about everything...you sure have the world figured out. :ugh::mad:

[FirstStep]

aviatorhi..

You seem to have a bone to pick, or rather made quite an effort to "put down" other pilots, or their view points.
I don't believe anyone else in this forum believes that landing at the wrong airport is not a f#$^up. I think most of us, having been involved in this industry for as long as we have, know that whatever "fubar" of the day is, it can happen to us. To put yourself above such a mistake, is the kind of attitude that CRM was designed to prevent.
Yes, some good points were brought up. Runway lights, width, ramp, ect. That said, it happened. You can spend your free time "snickering", or you can maybe spend some time ( briefing an approach for example ), and include something that was said or learned here, to maybe keep a fellow pilot from making the same mistake.

[Intruder]

Atlas Air now requires pilots to remain on an instrument approach procedure–even in visual conditions–until passing the final approach fix

Just wondering whether you accept a real visual or continue with the arrival-approach, if any. If the visual to Rwy 25R at ANC was in use, there would be no arrival, approach or FAF. The company decision just seems like an illogical restriction for a professional flight crew, but then it is 2014.
So now it appears that aviatorhi takes a quote from a news article that incorrectly paraphrases a bootleg video, and assumes it means Atlas pilots can ONLY do FULL instrument approaches. While desert185 may have made the same assumption, at least he made a reasoned inquiry...

The FACT is that NO such restriction is in place, and Atlas pilots still can do visual approaches and make approaches and landings to runways without charted instrument procedures. As I explained twice and Fr8dog correctly summarized, it is only the internal cockpit procedures that are "restricted". LNAV/VNAV and/or ILS backups are routine for most of us, and will continue.

[3pointlanding]

Ah Fr8
After 24000 hours and 40 years I am sure my experience is a bit more than yours. I aged out as you will one fine day. But never mind. You seem to have all the answers.

[3pointlanding]

Do you still stay at the Royal? A real dump. We still stay at the Peninsula. Our Chinese food was better than yours. At least in my younger days

[3pointlanding]

No but my big 747 and 777 did
It looks like SW joined the wrong airport club. Bet they demote that guy

[aviatorhi]

So now it appears that aviatorhi takes a quote from a news article that incorrectly paraphrases a bootleg video, and assumes it means Atlas pilots can ONLY do FULL instrument approaches. While desert185 may have made the same assumption, at least he made a reasoned inquiry...

The FACT is that NO such restriction is in place, and Atlas pilots still can do visual approaches and make approaches and landings to runways without charted instrument procedures. As I explained twice and Fr8dog correctly summarized, it is only the internal cockpit procedures that are "restricted". LNAV/VNAV and/or ILS backups are routine for most of us, and will continue.

Careful now, I didn't jump to put down other pilots, just what I perceived as a moronic restriction placed upon them and the overall detrimental effect that has on the skill set and command authority of those up front (not of their own fault).

If there's no restrictions that makes me very happy. Sounds more like it was a flight ops "reminder" and I won't get to do much snickering. :ok:

The squabble with Fr8, as far as I can tell, is completely related to him having what I will call whale jet syndrome.

[Fr8Dog]

3pointlanding

After 24000 hours and 40 years I am sure my experience is a bit more than yours. I aged out as you will one fine day. But never mind. You seem to have all the answers.

Got just a little more than you, and 44 years. I still a few left. Not my fault you didn't make the 65 rule change!

[Fr8Dog]

3pointlanding

Do you still stay at the Royal? A real dump. We still stay at the Peninsula. Our Chinese food was better than yours. At least in my younger days

Never stayed at the Royal in the 15 years I have been here. We are now at the Langham Place, a brand new hotel in Mong Kok and overflow at the Intercon Grand Stanford in TST. Oh yea some dumps these places are. As far as the food, not even going to go there.

[3pointlanding]

What, you mean you don't like congee?

[3pointlanding]

Oh yeah, I made the 65 rule change, when I was 64 and a half!

[Fr8Dog]

3pointlanding

What, you mean you don't like congee?


No I hate congee, it's like gruel. I am more of a noodle and dumpling, Peking duck kind of guy!

[3pointlanding]

Has anyone heard anything about Midex? I have some friends stuck in that $hithole

[8driver]

Aviatorhi:

I don't understand where you're coming from. Even if its clear blue and a million why wouldn't you use all the data available to you? Especially in a heavy jet? The ILS will AUTOTUNE in a -400 for heaven's sake. But especially at night, and at an airport that might have been unfamiliar, why not use everything you have? It doesn't stop you from accepting a visual approach but it helps you maintain a stable approach to the runway. The CORRECT runway. If there isn't an ILS load the RNAV approach, or the LOC, or the VOR and let VNAV generate an electronic path. UPS at Birmingham anyone? Yeah, I did "black hole" approaches into Navy Sigonella in a DC-8. Challenging? Yes. Did I find it especially fun? Nope. How many accidents can be attributed to an unstable approach in heavy jets? I don't understand what you are arguing against. The technology has evolved to a point where we can greatly reduce the chances of landing at the wrong airport (which might not be suitable) or the chances of having a landing incident as a result of an unstable approach. So use the technology, its a no brainer.

3pointlanding

This was a complete F.U by the Captain, nothing more, nothing less and would not have happened if he would have just looked outside.

The exact opposite is true. ALL he was doing was looking outside. If he'd looked at the PROG page of the FMS or at his ND he would've seen he wasn't in the right place. He should've just looked INSIDE once or twice.