Multi Crew in Single Pilot Helicopters...

[C20 Overture]

People may have different opinions as to the benefits and disadvantages of such a set-up, but the fact of the matter is that every now and then, around the world, there are customers who ask for 2 pilots to man a single engine, single pilot machine flying VFR (206L, AS350 etc.).

And while many IFR crews have gone through some kind of MCC, CRM etc. course, most VFR guys in the above mentioned situation are just thrown into it - with the typical scenario being one experienced pilot paired with one less so.

Considering the 2 pilot, SE VFR scenario, if anyone is willing, can they please post ideas, basic rules of thumb, tips, advice etc. (maybe from experience in a multi-crew environment) to help make the above situation safer, run more smoothly and, overall, actually be successful.

Any contributions much appreciated.


Thank you.

[Agaricus bisporus]

In the rather bizarre situation described I'd firstly try to talk the customer out of it, but if he insisted, for the reasons you gave yourself, I'd designate one the pilot and make sure the other understood that he was just a passenger in uniform out for a jolly. (pax handler and gopher perhaps). The hazard is two "single" pilots feeling they need to act as a crew. Don't let it happen. Stick to one pilot and a pax in uniform only. DO NOT try to operate the aircraft as a "crew"as it is outside the pilot's experience.

Its a very uncomfortable situation for the pilots and imo has the potential to be quite hazardous.

Best answer, educate your customers.

[Gordy]

Agaricus bisporus

In the rather bizarre situation described I'd firstly try to talk the customer out of it,

Why..... we have clients who want to do this all the time. They feel more comfortable having two people looking for traffic etc. We are flying them low level through the Los Angeles Basin. We have two fully qualified pilots, both certificated in the aircraft. One does the flying, the other does the radios and call outs etc. On multi-leg flights we switch up who is primary each leg. All VFR.

It is not a problem as long as we do a briefing prior to going.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Why? Because in all the years I flew light VFR single pilot this only happened to me once, so it is bizarre to me. (insurance driven I was told) It also made the operation far harder, more stressful and less safe due to excess weight.

Why does a customer feel he knows better than the operator or regulator? That is bizarre.

But you seem to agree with my point that a clear distinction is made as to who does what which was my point. It matters not a jot whether the other is rated on type of course.

[ShyTorque]

It matters not a jot whether the other is rated on type of course.

Unfortunately, it does, at least on the east side of the big pond.

[Agaricus bisporus]

E side of the pond = Europe? How does a passenger (for that's what the other pilot is legally) need a type rating?

[GoodGrief]

I am with Gordy. Same here. Customer demands two engines and two pilots.
Any flight ops manual/SOP, especially in Europe, does or at least should have that situation covered and it will usually say: "In case two rated pilots are in the cockpit the chief pilot will designate a PIC in WRITING".
So there are no two opinios about it.
And the second man is not just in for a jolly ride, as stated, he has to earn his per diem by acting as a PNF, pilot not flying, navigating, radios, checking instruments and airpace. Keeping track of timing, fuel, etc. you get the idea.
He can of course take over in case the PIC becomes incapacitated, that's the idea behind it.

Now, of course, he can't log any pilot time, neither PIC nor SIC, but that's another story.:E

[Gordy]

Why does a customer feel he knows better than the operator or regulator?

They don't, but they are the customer and are willing to pay extra. It is not uncommon for them to be charged an additional $500 a day plus expenses for their request.

BTW---this is in a single pilot VFR S-76, and the "customers" have more money than they know what to do with.

And yes, for the OP...it can be done safely, it just takes a solid understanding of CRM, good brief, and pilots willing to check their ego at the door.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

Having two crew is a great luxury in a single pilot machine ! It means you have someone else to fold maps find plates do the radios etc which halfs the workload, on the odd occasion I have done it I found it very helpful. If the pax want to get in or out rotors running having a second pilot to act as a handler is very helpful and if the client is paying then great.

Any pilot that comes though via the instructor route should have no problems with two crew operations as two way communication with a student is not that far removed from having two pilots working together, plus it gives you someone to chat too on boring legs.

[Gordy]

GoodGrief

Now, of course, he can't log any pilot time, neither PIC nor SIC, but that's another story.

Yes indeedy, and I have had people apply for jobs with me saying the had X amount of time in certain aircraft......on one occasion, a pilot had logged about 500 hours, (some of which was long line with no bubble window).....I educated him.

Having said that, we have one client who does not require the "other" pilot to be current in the aircraft. We have our company instructor go as the "main" pilot and use other company pilots in the second seat. We have them fly the aircraft on the "dead" legs as training and hours building on type. In this instance, they can log the time as PIC dual received.

[ShyTorque]

E side of the pond = Europe? How does a passenger (for that's what the other pilot is legally) need a type rating?

The point is, if the second pilot has a type rating, he may use the radios or touch controls, as long as the Ops manual caters for this for a public transport flight. If not, he cannot do either because yes, he is classed as a passenger.

Which is why I said the type rating matters.

[Nubian]

E side of the pond = Europe? How does a passenger (for that's what the other pilot is legally) need a type rating?

Because, on a commercial flight the dual controls must be removed unless the seat is occupied by an appropriately rated pilot. Alternatively, being left empty.

[GoodGrief]

Other countries, different rules.
Used to work in LaLa-Land where the authorities *cough* say that the duals go physically out of the aircraft, signed for by an engineer, when a passenger or a NON-rated pilot sits in the left seat.

Nubian was faster;)

[ShyTorque]

Because, on a commercial flight the dual controls must be removed unless the seat is occupied by an appropriately rated pilot. Alternatively, being left empty.

Might that be a company requirement, rather than a legal requirement?

However, CAA FODCOM 21/2010 gives more guidance on the interpretation of the rules.

Note that the rules apply to public transport flights.

www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD201021.pdf

[Tandemrotor]

As some here will know. I dislike 'grey areas'. My experience leads me to believe that such areas are often inhabited by people who seem to 'know better' than the rules allow.

Not normally a situation which enhances safety.

Some of the a/c being discussed, are reasonably likely to be fully equipped and regulated for two pilot ops, though at times flown single pilot. That's fair enough.
The point is, if the second pilot has a type rating, he may use the radios or touch controls, as long as the Ops manual caters for this for a public transport flight. If not, he cannot do either because yes, he is classed as a passenger.
One assumes that each pilot also requires a specific qualification, and sim check to sit in either seat? So for example a captain would need a specific LHS qualification to be a 'co-pilot' on a PT flight? Also some form of MCC qualification might be required from BOTH pilots for PT? Otherwise one presumes they are no more than a bag carrier/map folder, and regarded as completely unqualified to play any part in the operation? Which is precisely why they can't enter such time in their logbook.

Other than on an instructional flight, of course on a helicopter laid out for just a single pilot, any one in the LHS cannot possibly be anything other than a passenger, and certainly not on a PT flight. Period!

A millionaire paying £500 for a 'second pilot' could be paying £500 just to carry one extra passenger! Rather naive?

Edited to add:
Shy, good link!

[chopjock]

So if you have a non type rated safety pilot along for the ride and he is not allowed to touch anything and the rated captain becomes incapacitated what then? All of a sudden it will be ok to take control I suppose.

[Gordy]

chopjock

No type rating required in the US until 12,500 lbs or more. Hence I stated "current" on aircraft type. I suspect most professional helicopter pilots could land a helicopter whether they were current on type or not.

[terminus mos]

If its an S-76 as you mention, if a pilot is S-76 rated and occupies the LHS, why wouldn't he be able to log P2 time? S-76s have been flown 2 crew under VFR for 30 years.

[ShyTorque]

A millionaire paying £500 for a 'second pilot' could be paying £500 just to carry one extra passenger! Rather naive?

I think that's a bit over the going rate but if you could be so kind as to let me know where this naive millionaire is, I'm certainly up for it as a mercenary bag carrier and these days I wouldn't be at all bothered about not logging "passenger" flights.

[skidbiter2]

Now back to the question at hand........

[Gordy]

If its an S-76 as you mention, if a pilot is S-76 rated and occupies the LHS, why wouldn't he be able to log P2 time? S-76s have been flown 2 crew under VFR for 30 years.

Because the Type Certificate Data Sheet (See Here (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/e511946f5ec2b5f886257c460070a48d/$FILE/ATT4BVG8.pdf/H1NE_Rev_40.pdf) ) only requires one pilot, therefore only one can log the time, unless instruction is being given. (Which cannot occur on a Part 135 flight). Comes down to people "bending" the rules again....

Shytorque

I think that's a bit over the going rate

Not really, when you take into account employee pay, workers comp, insurance etc...... plus a bit of profit---we do not do this for charity.

let me know where this naive millionaire is

There are all over.... I get calls from clients who will not fly in an aircraft over 5 years old, and actually had a client a few weeks back who tried to charter 2 helicopters....one for him and one for his bags so that he did not have to wait for them to be unloaded from his airplane. I too was shocked, as I am more used to the utility market....

[terminus mos]

Wow Gordy

That's a whole heap of S-76 Co-Pilot hours flown on the North Sea by some people invalid then. I think that the regulations are obviously different in the USA where you don't need a type rating.

So, how does a co pilot flying an S-76 or a Bell 412 in the GOM, not under instruction log their flight hours and duty time. If you can't log the flight hours, then there must be no duty time? Sounds like I may have found a way to reduce my contract costs, require 2 pilots, only pay for the one that counts.

[hueyracer]

It all comes down to HOW the helicopter is listed.

A helicopter-independent of it´s type or weight-can be listed as a "multi pilot helicopter" or "single pilot helicopter"-for all, or only for a few operations (e.g. "VFR: 1 pilot, IFR: 2 pilots).

This needs to be written either in the OM or the FM, and needs to be approved by the authorities.

Once this is done, there is no way an additional pilot can log P2 (in an approved SPH-unless under instruction, but then NOT in commercial air transport), or that a helicopter can be flown with one pilot (if approved as MPH).

[Aucky]

I'm surprised at the opposition to the potential safety benefits of operating 2 crew in helicopters onshore, especially if both pilots are current and type rated. It needs to be performed correctly - a clear division of roles for PF and PNF, but in my view it enhances safety and increases pilots available capacity. PNF looks after radios, navigation, plates, frequencies, most 'eyes in' functions, emergency checklists and provide an extra set of eyes and ears, leaving PF to maintain a good lookout and fly aircraft with max spare capacity. Surely a good thing, especially when in more challenging conditions like deteriorating weather, inadvertent IMC, busy airspace, low level or areas of high traffic density.

Additionally, for the career development of pilots (of which there is limited 2nd pilot work onshore) it is a valuable way for pilots to become familiar with new aircraft types & operating procedures under the supervision of a more experienced captain whilst still being able to help with tasks that they are very comfortable and familiar with. Of course they cannot log the time unless Multi-crew requirements have been met but if roles are specified, briefed and legal, I believe 2nd pilots can be very valuable especially when workloads increase.

[terminus mos]

I agree Aucky, in the offshore environment where I work, we would never accept Single Pilot, or Single Engine or old generation helicopters. There is nothing wrong with Co-Pilot time.

[Tandemrotor]

Flying single pilot requires a very specific skill set. Some might say over time it also can develop a certain style or attitude!:rolleyes:

Flying true twin pilot requires additional skills, some of which can be difficult to acquire and not necessarily intuitive for some. That is why there is a requirement for a Multi Crew Course for those who's futures lie in that direction.

Shy's link nicely covers the concept of a 'Pilot's Assistant' who whilst somehow 'qualified' is most definitely NOT a second pilot in the sense in which some may like to interpret it. I believe they can't log P1 or P2 hours?

Which brings me to chopjock:
a non type rated safety pilot along for the ride
WTF is a "non type rated" "safety pilot" and what's safe about it?
Does some such thing exist within the legislation? Or is this simply a way for a PPL (director of the supplier) to justify his 'ride along' presence to a cameraman customer who knows no better?

It all comes down to precise definitions, but a PPL might not even qualify to be a 'Pilot's Assistant' on a 'Hire and Reward' flight? I don't know.

This is where lines get blurred.

[GoodGrief]

So, how does a co pilot flying an S-76 or a Bell 412 in the GOM, not under instruction log their flight hours and duty time

Because your ops manual mandates you have to have two pilots.
That is different issue.

[FH1100 Pilot]

It's generally better to have a second set of eyes in the cockpit to look for traffic during VFR flight. But a two-pilot crew in a single-pilot helicopter is not *always* safer, nor is it *always* less workload for the PIC.

As long as both pilots are equally rated and there is a clear definition of who is PIC then yeah, go for it if you want. But there are other cases when it's not beneficial.

My boss used to charter (or "borrow") single-pilot fixed-wing aircraft for which I was not rated. He would insist that I go along on these flights "...as copilot" because while he was happy to fly in his single-engine helicopter with just me, he would not fly in a fixed-wing without two (turbine) engines and two pilots. So I'd go along and pretend to be a copilot. I've flown as "copilot" in Piper Cheyennes and multiple Beechcraft 200's (and even a 350), and various Cessna Citations. All of the PIC's were people I'd never flown with before.

Lots of times the PIC would ask me if I wanted to do something...handle the radios or whatever. I usually said, "Nope! I'm just going to sit here and look for traffic." When you take a guy who's been flying primarily as a single-pilot and then give him an unfamiliar copilot, you are *not* enhancing safety. Because now the PIC has to monitor everything that the "SIC" does to make sure he did it right. It actually increases his workload - which does not increase safety. It actually has the opposite effect.

I've flown as PIC with other similarly-rated pilots in small aircraft. They usually always want to participate in flying the aircraft - take away some of *my* duties as PIC. I usually deny the request. I say, "When you're flying, *YOU* do it all. When I'm flying, *I'LL* do it all." And then I'll let them do as much of the flying as they want. It's not that I'm a tw@t. Nobody needs a copilot in a small, single-pilot aircraft. Hey, you want to sit there and look for traffic, fine. But don't expect me to sit here with you "handling the radios" while you miss a call from ATC because you're gabbing away trying to impress me with how much flight time you have.

Yes, that's happened more than once. I say, "Uhhh, I think that was for us." They didn't catch the call because they're usually not familiar enough with the N-number to hear it over their own voice. So much for reducing my workload by letting someone else handle the radios, eh?

Throwing a "lone-wolf" single-pilot into a two-crew situation can be a recipe for disaster. I would advise pilots to be very, very cautious about who they let become a "copilot."

[Gordy]

I think that the regulations are obviously different in the USA where you don't need a type rating.

Yep, you can only log SIC time under the rules of FAR 51.51(f) (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/0367625A797466AA8625793B0068F34D?OpenDocument)

(f) Logging second-in-command time. A person may log second-in-command flight time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of Sec. 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.



So nope, if you are flying an S-76 under VFR, the type certificate only requires one pilot, therefore only one can log the time, unless there is another regulatory requirement for another pilot. That may be in your "Ops Specs". And like before, I clarify this is in FAA land.

When you take a guy who's been flying primarily as a single-pilot and then give him an unfamiliar copilot, you are *not* enhancing safety.

I never said my guys were "unfamiliar"....the "other" pilots always go through basic aircraft familiarization and some flight training before flying the "other" seat.

[ShyTorque]

Gordy, I just re-read your post. I originally saw a £ sign where in fact you wrote $.

I take back what I said about that being over the odds. Bearing in mind company overheads taken out, it's very possible for the individual to earn that here too, or in fact a bit more.

[Harry the Hun]

Once this is done, there is no way an additional pilot can log P2 (in an approved SPH-unless under instruction, but then NOT in commercial air transport), or that a helicopter can be flown with one pilot (if approved as MPH).[/QUOTE]


This is not totaly correct. Every operator can define minimum crew requirements for his AOC. Lot's of single pilot helicopters are operated multi-crew offshore. Downside is, the crew needs to be rated MPO.

[hueyracer]

Read my post again.

[Harry the Hun]

Yes, sorry, if you refer to the Flight Operations Manual as OM you are correct.
There are different OMs published by the OEMs in regard to operations with optional equipment like hoist etc. and I thought you were refering to that.

Anyway, both pilots need to be rated MPO for multipilot operations and with PartFCL it is not that easy (cheap) to either convert from SPO to MPO, or to optain an additional MPO rating. Not impossible though and it depends largely on who your competent authority is.