Becoming a pilot & Aviation Industry in 2014 - a disgrace?

[truckflyer]

Now I know there will be lot of you here ready to slaughter me and my character regarding what I have to say about the aviation industry and it's state today.

Many here get complete frenzy if something negative is said about the industry, and that I should shut up or put up. Which is in many ways the one of the main reasons aviation is like it is today, to many people just put up with the current degrading of T & C's and working conditions in this industry.

To many people delude themselves believing the industry somehow will improve, get some more and there will be companies lined up to give you a better job, with betters TC's. However by the time your reach that experience level, these companies due to competition from the lower end of airlines, have put pressure so they also have now worsen their work TC's.

After new EASA flight time regulations which is about to be approved, the companies are gaining a momentum to take more control over peoples lives, and making people a slave of their machine. As an individual you are not considered to deserve to have a life outside the air-plane according to many airlines.

Due to your "love" for aviation, they brainwash people to become complete loyalist to their doctrines, as the choice is of course yours, but how can you accept to stand up against this BS after spending 100.000 Euros or more on your training.

Let's start with the first thing, the "dream" - and these are questions you should ask yourself, is this your dream? Really?

To know this you need to know the facts, realize what these facts does mean, and think if this is what you are willing to do to make a pay slightly more than somebody who works at McDonalds!

The job is good if you like sitting doing nothing for around 80% of your time, so it is great job if your brain activity does not mind being in a very inactive environment.
(Now this doesn't mean that you are not smart, and good at your job, of course if disaster happens you have to be alert and well trained to cope with this situation - however with the reliability of these modern aircraft today, you will most likely only get to do this twice a year, when you doing your sim training / checks.)

So it's a great job to have, if you like doing nothing for hours and hours, except stare out of the windows and admire the view, however after a while that also gets pretty familiar.

You will have little or no real job protection - you will be used as the airline pleases, with no consideration given to your own private life. (I mean how do you expect we ("the airline) can have time and manpower to consider individuals personal needs - that will cost the company money, which they are not willing to spend.

If they feel they do not need you, they will easily fire you or put you on Unpaid leave.

Little or No sickpay, so actively encouraging people to push themselves to work even if you should be grounded. (Yes I have seen that - I even had a Captain fully knowing he was sick, did not tell me, started the flight, only to tell me midway that he might need to report of duty sick on arrival, because he was not feeling well)

Another issue with this, reporting sick, is almost a taboo for many pilots, as they have this attitude to that they must serve the company regardless of their health condition or if they are fatigue. I have seen and experienced so many times crews being tired, and in my opinion should have reported unfit for duty, but this rarely ever happens.
It is a mentality which is very unhealthy. I also heard of crews being out all night in clubs etc., reporting for duty in morning or later in the day. (not accusing anybody of drinking, but lacking sever rest and still reporting for duty as normal)
Now for me this is very unprofessional and it is playing with peoples lives.

But these things will happen, when people are treated with very little or no respect.

No Pensions, of course if you are 21 - 22, you might not care about this, but you should, but no social contribution by the company, many companies today look for ways to avoid social responsibility, like removing sick pay and pensions - and if they do pay some of this, it will be the basic, where you would probably get more working in a supermarket Tescos.

Now I am in an exceptional situation, as in 1 month at home in November / December I made close to £40K with my own business. And it makes me question my own sanity over this, do I need some inexperienced planner telling me that for the next 3 - 4 weeks I will not be able to see my family because the company owns me?

So most jobs are now on contracts as falsely self-employed, for the company to avoid social responsibility and to avoid to pay proper taxes and other expenses involved with having people working for you.
Thousands of pilots are evading taxes, either of their own lack of knowledge and a combination of the airlines using every trick in the book to keep their expenses down.
However these tricks will soon be turned out to be illegal, in time, and let's hope it will not be the pilots who have to pay for this tax evasion - where they have also been mislead by agencies and airlines.

Now there is a general acceptance in the industry by to many pilots, that these conditions are no more then what they deserve, and they might moan and complain, but they have so much fear of loosing their "dream job" that they shut up.

The problem also lies in the recruitment strategies, there are THOUSANDS of people willing to spend a fortune to work for PEANUTS!
The Airlines use this actively, to make sure everybody sits in their place nicely and shuts up and does not act to try to improve.

Now this is a disease in the industry, spreading like cancer, maybe it has always been like this, but I doubt so.
The lifestyle and life-quality being a pilot has seriously decreased, most of us have a love for flying, and that is the trap used.
Fact is that even today with experience, the chances of moving up the ladder are fairly few and far in-between.

Being a pilot used to be a prestigious and well respected profession, however it is unfortunately today changing into a job that you are more and more ashamed to talk about with regards to life-quality and conditions.

Now changes needs to be made, and EASA approving TT of 1000 hours per year is a major step backwards. In most professions it should be going the other way, with less hours to increase quality of life.

But of course now with this big EU family, where 3.rd world countries are now members too, competing for the same jobs, the companies are getting more and more happy by increasing their profits and paying less, giving less.

Things need to change, before the rot will start bringing the whole industry into the mud. Changes are needed, and they must come in form of improved company legislation.
The first step would be to make it illegal for pilots to report as self-employed, because what they simply do today, is just avoid paying taxes, which benefits nobody - well except the company that employs them.

The company saves a fortune, and people except it because does not seem to bad pay if not paying any taxes or social contributions of it.

Accept scientific research for Flight Time Regulations, and accept that this legislation that is now about to be approved is not acceptable. This is not in the interest of the passengers or the crews, but it does increase the airlines profit margins, more for less philosophy.

Put a stop to P2F and Cadet programs - require minimum 1500 hours or more to fly for an airline. Why? some may ask. This is one of the main factors with the industry, as Ryanair started this, making pilots pay for their own training etc. It created a base of available pilots that is ENDLESS!

Airlines are with this in Paradise - in 3 - 4 months they can train a monkey and pay him peanuts! And there is an endless source of pilots available.
Now you might ask what about all the newbies, don't they also deserve a chance?

Of course they do, but unless they are on a program similar to BA etc., they should build up their experience over time, when reaching the hours they will have gained invaluable experience and be ready for airlines - this will be their recruitment procedure, and there will be jobs created on every level - as it would mean all the guys today with thousands of hours on MEP and SEP instructing etc., would have priority when employed, ahead of the hoards of people who exist with Low hours.

It will after a while settle in to a natural stream - and it would enhance safety with the airlines, as these would be pilots with actual experience of hands on flying over a period of time.
Also there would be a natural selection process that would get rid of the wannabes who are merely time-wasters, who should not be looking at this career, but doing it for the wrong reasons and the chance to get into a big shiny yet with 250 hours on SEP.

This is not a perfect system either, but it would for sure help the pilots TC's to become more stable and stronger over time.
However the business interest in airlines would not be happy for such legislation, as it would mean that they no longer would have an infinite amount of pilots at their disposal - it would only be those who had a certain amount of hours Total time.

If it means spending a couple of more years flying around in a SEP /MEP or some smaller turbo-prop etc., the long term benefits for the whole profession would improve, and everybody entering into it would face a much better and brighter future.

But the problem is todays Fast - Food generation, they want everything instantly and they do not want to work their way up, and that is the reason the treatment like monkeys befall them.

If organizations like ECA could manage to organize the unions around in EASA to take action, based on safety - these kind of improvements could maybe be achieved. But a part of the problem, are the pilots themselves, they lack unity and many lack self-respect, which is not entirely their own fault, it is the airlines who have indoctrinated this fear culture, which is epidemic, don't talk, don't think, just go with the flow, be lucky we let you fly this aircraft of ours!

Do you feel lucky today?

(remember your enemies that want you to not have good conditions are the airlines, the FTO's, TRTO's - as this will not serve their best interest, however a change of regulations is needed, if not this profession is becoming a joke - lack of respect for your work - stop it now! - or if you don't mind just let it Carry On! :D )

I guess the general final conclusion of this message is:
Lower your expectations to the industry!

[paco]

You're not going to solve it by regulation.

[Bealzebub]

The job is good if you like sitting doing nothing for around 80% of your time, so it is great job if your brain activity does not mind being in a very inactive environment.
If this is what you are doing, then you are not doing the job.
So it's a great job to have, if you like doing nothing for hours and hours, except stare out of the windows and admire the view, however after a while that also gets pretty familiar.
If this is what you are doing, then you are not doing the job.
Put a stop to P2F and Cadet programs - require minimum 1500 hours or more to fly for an airline. Why? some may ask. This is one of the main factors with the industry, as Ryanair started this, making pilots pay for their own training etc. It created a base of available pilots that is ENDLESS!
Airlines are with this in Paradise - in 3 - 4 months they can train a monkey and pay him peanuts! And there is an endless source of pilots available.
Now you might ask what about all the newbies, don't they also deserve a chance?

Of course they do, but unless they are on a program similar to BA etc., they should build up their experience over time, when reaching the hours they will have gained invaluable experience and be ready for airlines - this will be their recruitment procedure, and there will be jobs created on every level - as it would mean all the guys today with thousands of hours on MEP and SEP instructing etc., would have priority when employed, ahead of the hoards of people who exist with Low hours.

Why is BA's cadet programme any different from those of other airlines that use the same or similar resources? Those quality airlines with cadet programmes usually utilize the same training resources. Selection is made at an early stage thereby avoiding what you describe as "training monkeys."


It will after a while settle in to a natural stream - and it would enhance safety with the airlines, as these would be pilots with actual experience of hands on flying over a period of time. The safety statistics in both absolute and relative terms have never been as good as they are these days. The airlines do have pilots with experience, they are sat in the left seat. Those in the right seat are often building up that experience.....just like you?

There are good jobs and good employers. The competition for those jobs is, has been, and likely always will be, fierce. The less desirable employers are often utilized as stepping stones to better things. That has always been the case as well.

There are those that listen, and those that don't. Plenty of people have been describing the hard and soft realities of the evolution of the marketplace for many years. I am sure that plenty of people absorb that advice and use it or discard it as a small part of their own planning strategy. A few will simply rail against everything that doesn't fit in with their own mental model of the training regime and the industrial and employment realities. Once they discover those models are made of ice cream, they blame all and sundry for the puddle of cream they then find themselves sitting in.

Survival is usually about the ability to adapt to the environment you find yourself in, rather than demanding that the environment should adapt itself to you. Legend has it that King Canute discovered this fundamental point almost a thousand years ago.

[Killaroo]

Survival is usually about the ability to adapt to the environment you find yourself in, rather than demanding that the environment should adapt itself to you.
The most efficient form of adaptation might be diversification. That means - find something else to do, if you can. It also means forewarning the naiive and the dreamers, which the OPs post helps to do. I also make that my crusade.
Flying is a game for idiots and losers with no other options. Only those who are already too old to adapt have any excuse for staying.

[Bealzebub]

Yes, if you find something else better it might well be the smartest thing to do. Forewarning "the naive and dreamers" is little different from offering sound advice to those who are neither. As for the OP's post, you might want to research their history and revisit that comment.
Flying is a game for idiots and losers with no other options
No it isn't. For some it is a well planned and researched career with good rewards. I say that because I fly (and have done for nearly two decades) with so many of them. Not one of them is either an idiot or a loser. In fact quite the opposite.
Only those who are already too old to adapt have any excuse for staying. That rather assumes that they need an excuse? If I align myself to that demographic I still adapt all of the time. The time to retire is when that becomes too difficult, or when you reach the regulatory number.

[drivez]

Whilst I agree with some of your points the main problem facing young pilots today is the traditional pipeline has disappeared. You also need to make a distinction between cadet programs where pilots are chosen before any training is undertaken and the company makes a substantial contribution, and "cadets" who pay for a TR.

Reality is in the UK, when you leave flight school you have a bare minimum of experience. But there are no magical entry level jobs sitting there. Instruction, at my local club with the exception of one all instructors are airline pilots who do it as a hobby (I agree with this as they have more experience to give). Cargo or charter? Jobs are very few and very far between.

The majority of people leaving flight schools at the moment and getting jobs aren't always the people who are the best pilots, they are just the people who can afford to pay £25,000 for a TR. That's the hard truth and the reality of what's been created. To say pilots need 1500 hours in the UK would destroy this "pipeline" completely but it wouldn't solve any problems.

[lifeafteraviation]

truckflyer...
The job is good if you like sitting doing nothing for around 80% of your time, so it is great job if your brain activity does not mind being in a very inactive environment.
Bealzebub...
If this is what you are doing, then you are not doing the job.

Maybe if you're a helicopter pilot. On the other hand, maybe you're using your brain to study a magazine or newspaper during cruise. Seriously? I think truckflyer's post was pretty well descriptive of the current state of the career. Especially this part.

[Killaroo]

Ah, this ground has been raked over so many times, it almost seems pointless to do it again. We'll have the same old arguments - Pros and Cons. Nothing in life is perfect, but I've been in this business for 35 years and actually had a good career (started as a cadet in a national carrier in europe) and I can say with 100% certainty that it isn't the job it was 30 years ago, and it is turning to :mad: faster year by year.
Beelezebub, you seem to be happy. Good for you. Some are lucky and find a certain niche that suits them. You should realise you are one of the few. The vast majority of the pilots I meet are unhappy - either with their pay and conditions, or with the fact that they've lived their lives moving around like gypsies, with a home-life being a vague aspiration they never manage to attain. Most of these folk carry on because they don't know what else to do.
As to my 'losers and idiots' characterisation - I stand over it 100%. It's a boring and repetitive job. It requires NO imagination or invention. No entrepreneurial skill. Little social interaction. The perfect pilot nowadays is a cookie cutter pilot. One who can absolutely and consistently do the very same thing again and again in exactly the same manner. The less variation or divergence from the rote the better. The perfect pilot moves his hands in the same pattern every day. He says the same words - with minor (mandated) variations, every day. He switches the same switches in the same order, he punches in the same data, in the same rote way.
Microscopic obsessiveness with inane detail is a virtue. Rigidity is a badge of honour. The perfect pilot will happily spend his own days off researching the manuals and doing company exams on the company 'training' portal - and getting paid nothing for it.
The perfect pilot doesn't mind if its 3AM on Christmas morning and he's ferrying a pallet of rubber :mad: out of Hong Kong (in the immortal words) - no, this is his dream job, and he can be just as damned good at it at 3AM on Xmas Day as any other day of the year.
Is that you?
Is that not IDIOTIC???
Is that something to aspire to??

[Bealzebub]

Whilst I agree with some of your points the main problem facing young pilots today is the traditional pipeline has disappeared. That is because the traditional licencing structure also disappeared. Pre-J.A.R (in the UK) the basic unstructured CPL was a 700 hour licence. Civilian pilots traditionally travelled this part of the pipeline via general aviation opportunities. Remunerated flight instruction could be carried out at the circa 150 hour level with nothing more than PPL and a basic instructional rating. J.A.R modified the licencing regime to bring the UK (and other countries) into line with most other ICAO signatory states, whereby the CPL was the vehicle for basic instruction and other GA level job opportunities. In recognition of that reality the experience levels were reduced to the 250 hour level, again in line with most other ICAO states. There had been a previous "approved course" distinction for a few specified full time courses of regulated training whereby the CPL hour requirement was circa 200 hours. Only a few FTO's were approved to conduct these courses. Post J.A.R these "approved courses" evolved in to the integrated courses offered by the same schools or their successors, as well as a few newcomers to the market.

The evolution broadly resulted in a co-incidence of the licencing changes together with the rapid expansion of new lo-cost airline entrants to the general market. Unfortunately many ordinary CPL aspirants believed that the licence changes meant "we are all ripe candidates for airline jobs now" when in fact that wasn't really the case at all. That confusion was exacerbated by one or two Lo-Co CEO's who publicly promoted the idea of single pilot flight decks. Unable to run with that idea, they then promoted the idea of taking the lowest licence requirements and offering the opportunity to anybody who wanted to pay a £50 fee and take their chances. The success of the lo-co's not only resulted in a rapid expansion of that sector, but forced established and legacy carriers to adopt many of the low cost strategies in one form or another in order to survive. Many of them didn't survive.

Many of these legacy and established airlines, and indeed some of the new market entrant lo-co's, went to the other side of the "pipeline" and looked again at the "approved schools." These were now the principle integrated fATPL course providers. They could offer ab-initio airline trained cadets directly into the airlines "cadet programmes." The airlines liked the product and the economics and this sector started to rapidly expand.

Then came the recession and global "credit crunch." This suppressed and masked the expansion, but it didn't suppress the infrastructure and investment for future growth that these providers were intending to provide.
The result being that first tier airlines emerging from recession now sourced an increasing percentage of their F/O requirement through these tied and integrated programmes. This suppressed a good deal of the historic movement from the "stepping stone" jobs, and from the ex-military career changers.

At about the same time all of this was happening, general statutory changes were also occurring in many developed countries, that resulted in increased retirement ages, sometimes by as much as 10 years as it applied to this specific industry. This took the pressure off the left seat demand and allowed many airlines a significant breathing space in their right seat recruitment plans, (where indeed there was any expansion taking place at all.) From inside it wasn't difficult to see the evolution taking place. If anybody could be bothered to look behind the "pardon our dust" hoardings of the big three FTO's, it wasn't difficult to see where the opportunities were likely to stem from either. A few people (including myself) have been banging on about this for many years now for anybody that might be interested. Some were, and some weren't, and some simply stuck their fingers in their ears and refused to believe anything other what they wanted or needed to believe. I am more than happy for anybody to go back through my own posting history to verify the point.

Reality is in the UK, when you leave flight school you have a bare minimum of experience. But there are no magical entry level jobs sitting there. Instruction, at my local club with the exception of one all instructors are airline pilots who do it as a hobby (I agree with this as they have more experience to give). Cargo or charter? Jobs are very few and very far between. Yes. But there is "flight school" and there is "flight school" and the selection and methodology (for all the reasons mentioned above) will often dictate where those "magical entry level" jobs are. Usually they are the right seat of an A320 or 737 type variant. Outside of these programmes it is a very cold world with very few vacancies. As the OP's post highlights yet again, the T&C's on offer make these few vacancies "stepping stones" in themselves, often in locations very far from home. Indeed even as "stepping stones" the further harsh reality is that the aspired to companies with the better T&C's are often satisfying their own right seat requirements through their own established cadet programmes. Far too many people delude themselves that these "stepping stone" pumpkins, will transform themselves into Cinderella's carriage, once they have jumped on board. They don't!

[Killaroo]

Do you own or operate a flight school?

[Bealzebub]

No I don't. Do you?

I have been doing this as long as you have from the days of the 707. For the better part of the last two decades as a captain flying with many cadets who themselves have gone on into senior positions within the same (and other) companies.

[Killaroo]

I don't obsess over other posters - but your posting history is heavily (shall I say) 'training oriented' - and your comments there about cadets further reinforce my feeling that you have something to gain by pushing a Happy Clappy agenda.

Do I own a flight school? Does it sound like I do - I'd be cutting my own throat by speaking the truth, wouldn't I!

If I ever teach anyone to fly, it'll be in a Tiger Moth. For fun.
Not ever for employment.

Sport Flying is fun.

Career Aviation is for numbskulls.

[Bealzebub]

It is a subject I believe I have significant knowledge of. As such, the comment is intended to be useful to those seeking an accurate picture or one that provides some balance. Obviously on forums such as these that is anything but a prerequisite or necessity, but that is my choice. There are good career routes out there, but they are few compared to the many thousands of hopeful aspirants (whatever their sub-group) who would seek them out. Again, that is not only the case now, but always has been and likely always will be.

"Sport flying" and the comments you make, are all well and good for you, but of course the people coming to these forums (this thread was originally posted in the Wanabees forum,) are usually interested in career flying.

I don't believe it is for numbskulls, nor do I believe that description applies to myself or those I work with. If you think it applies to you, then who am I to argue the point.

[ulugbek-pilot]

Numbskull or not they do have families to take care of

[Denti]

If you're bored with the job simply get a degree on the side. There is more than enough time to do that on your days off, on standby days etc. And the salary easily covers the best university tuition anyway and leaves more than enough to enjoy life. At least with good airlines, which can afford to be very picky with their applicants.

[Killaroo]

So to summarise Beelzebub - there are a very limited number of good jobs, and thousands of hopefuls destined to have their illusions shattered.
So we agree!
But you haven't addressed the boring repetitive thing. If you indeed flew 707's you'll remember a time when pilots knew things like - how to fly the aeroplane! Themselves! Without the aid or interference of a computer!
And even a time when the Ops Manual was a compact document - rather than a biblical tome.

Numbskull or not they do have families to take care of
Are you saying only people with families to take care of would become pilots?
Interesting angle!
I suggest this - if you are intelligent, choose a career where you can support your family AND enjoy your occupation. One with mental challenges and diverse activities. One where you aren't locked in a box at 3AM on Xmas morning.
But - if you are a numbskull incapable of doing anything else - flying may be for you!

[Greenlights]

Well said trukflyer.
I would say though it's not a flashnew neither...

There are many points.
First, we can udnerstand it's a "dream" career. Kids always wanted to be a fireman, policeman, or pilot, astronaut etc.
Pilot is one of the job, where between the imagination and reality, there is a big big step actually, ESPECIALLY nowadays.
It's a job where you have no clue how is it until you get there. That's the problem too.
Even from a FTO/TRTO to an airline, there is a big stone step.

I have been flying on jet and quit the industry. No regrets.
As I said in another thread, it depends MAINLY on the LIFESTYLE you want.
As truckflyer said, if you want to live like gipsies or bohemians with no futur plan, then it's a nice career.

The LCC understood well how to manage the business:

in 2014, they prefer hiring youngs indebted pilots so they can not complain.
At this age and with a low experience they have no weight for fighting.

They use them as a kleenex and once used, they will upgrade some of them as docile captains and throw the surplus F/o who became older and more mature (so they could complain now).
Then they replace the F/O rejected by others youngs docile fresh meat.
It's very simple with self-emplyed pilot.

[ulugbek-pilot]

Let's say there where I work the pilots salary is much more than anyone else's and still much lesser than in some places.
Your post bout numbskulls is still wrong.
Pilots career for a real possessed people I'd rather say

[Bealzebub]

So to summarise Beelzebub - there are a very limited number of good jobs, and thousands of hopefuls destined to have their illusions shattered.
So we agree!

Oh yes. However the advice and comment is the same irrespective.
But you haven't addressed the boring repetitive thing. If you indeed flew 707's you'll remember a time when pilots knew things like - how to fly the aeroplane! Themselves! Without the aid or interference of a computer!
And even a time when the Ops Manual was a compact document - rather than a biblical tome.

I hadn't addressed it because it seemed rhetorical, but if you want an answer. Twenty odd thousand hours of doing anything is always going to have a "boring and repetitive" element to it. However it is a "state of mind" that has the potential to come back and bite you. I often walk from the car park to work and remind myself that every major accident started on a day just like this one, with a crew that didn't for one second believe that day was going to be anything other than "routine," or if you prefer "boring and repetitive." That level of complacency is a natural by-product of experience, and in itself requires self awareness and managing. An inexperienced F/O who professes to feel this way on a regular basis is either something unusually special or simply not staying ahead of the game. The OP was making these claims on his initial training flights.

In my experience cadets fly the airplane very well. Obviously, (as with anybody) it is a learning curve, and initially a very steep one. As for the "aid or interference of a computer" I am afraid that is part of the modern toolkit. Automation is an ingrained part of their training doctrine because it is now such an ingrained part of the operating architecture. The transition from older first and second generation jet transports to "glass cockpit," was probably more traumatic than that faced by new entrant cadets today who are trained into these philosophies from onset. I remember in the seventies and eighties the term "automation complacency" was a regular feature in so many aircraft accidents and incidents, and in those days it often related to something as relatively basic as autopilot or auto throttle. The vox pop term "children of the magenta line" so often attributed to new pilots, is enshrined in an address by a senior American Airlines training captain to an audience also partly comprising senior American Airlines captains. It is something that we all (to a greater or lesser degree) are. Once again, it is a complacency that requires self awareness and needs guarding against.

The Op's manual is a "biblical tome" these days, because the technology is far more developed and intricate. In addition the operating philosophies have matured in not only the hard technical aspects, but as importantly in the non-technical aspects. Again in the sixties, seventies and eighties the frequency with which airliners were flown into hillsides did nothing to advocate the op's manual being a "compact tome." For any pilot, but particularly for a low experienced pilot, there are plenty of things they can be doing to stay well ahead of the game. Those that fail to stay "ahead of the game" are often the ones highlighting their "boredom." It is a vocation, but there is no getting away from the fact that it is also a job, and one that does require a constant maintenance of performance and contingency planning. Routine is a part of that job, but (and particularly) in short haul flying, it raises a red flag when an inexperienced pilot claims they are "sitting around doing nothing 80% of the time."

Long answer, but there you go.

[FANS]

I don't think anyone would argue that airline flying is a very different career to 20+ years ago, and the T&Cs for new entrants reflect that.

The fact remains that people are still queuing up to do it, but I suspect that fewer will do it for a 40 year career whereas at one point, it was only enforced retirement or loss of medical that got them out!

[ulugbek-pilot]

Now that's the aviation today. Airplanes are getting more automated, making our (pilots) life lot easier, but those who spend their 80% of flight time doing nothing not only would get their payment for nothing they'd be a real threat for aviation. Can you imagine the traffic nowadays. You've got to be aware of situation all the time. Just like an anecdote "wife asking-what's it like to be a pilot, what do you do? He's answering" You make a coffee, right?you put the pot on the fire and watch until it boils,now imagine I'm putting 8pots on the fire and keep watching them for the next 8hours:)

[BANANASBANANAS]

I am closer to the end of my aviation career than the beginning of it and have enjoyed the greater part of my career. However, I would do everything in my power to discourage any young person from entering the industry nowadays - unless via a cadetship with a flag carrier - and even then with caution.
It is not the job it once was. Unfortunately, by the time the new joiner realises this they are trapped into expensive bonds, p2f agreements etc and are invariably too old to start again in another career.
I'm not at all bitter and still enjoy my role in today's aviation industry but I would not like to be starting out in it today.

[ulugbek-pilot]

Different generations different opinions about aviation today, and what p2f really is. We don't practice that

[Killaroo]

Yet.

Lets all move to Uzbekistan!
Why not? Sounds just wunnerful.

[ulugbek-pilot]

Keep dreaming

[Kirks gusset]

As with any profession people have to do their research and make informed decisions. Aviation today is at best a gamble, except that and live with the decisions after placing your bets. Yes, the rules of the game in this industry are unique, but we don't make the rules and for sure they won't change, too much hot air and nonsense talked about legislation, Christ it takes 20 yrs to decide where to build a new runway let alone deal with the nitty gritty of employment conditions etcetera.

[BAe 146-100]

I think too much is made of the fact that you have to spend ex amounts of thousands to get qualified and land a job. Flying has never been a poor mans career choice, you have always (apart from the ones who have gone via the military route or have been fully sponsored in the decades gone by) needed access to money to get there.

It is a vocational career which getting a job requires a great deal of dedication and hard work, to constantly think of negatives about the job shows you have made the wrong choice by getting in. If you go on the forum of more or less every profession you will get the same sort of complaints that the job has gone down hill, its not just aviation its in all forms of work. But unfortunately that isn't going to change its really just the way things have gone.

Also bear in mind what some people have to do for a living, working in a warehouse, stocking shelves, cleaning toilets, then maybe you will realise that everyone who can fly for a living is fortunate, yes it is a job at the end of the day but it is a greater job than most have.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I basically agree with the initial post.

A great part of the job is doing either nothing or something you have done a zillion times before.

Most of the guys who deny that do get it mixed up imho, I am not saying it is an easy job, far from it. But we have to face the fact that the most challenging days are those either in the sim or during line checks, and the odd bad weather day. Rest is repetitive routine.

Additionally,most of the " intellectual " challenges we face is de facto learning by heart some idiotic numbers, totally fabricated useless nerd-bs by the usual aerosexuals every company has in their training departments.

All that interupted by the same small-talk, same gossip, same mediocre hotels, same same same..
That is flying today.

[Killaroo]

So now it's an alternative to shelf stacking? Yes, count your blessings!

I think a lot of people cling to the illusion because it defines them.
They'd be nothing if they didn't have that 'Big Job at The Airport' and the Gold Stripes to swagger around with (even while being played for fools by their bosses). Aerosexuals indeed. There's a lot of childish insecurity and self regard in this profession, yet another reason why it is in terminal decline.

In some places shelf stackers are paid more than Bae146 pilots. What's so 'great' about that?

[Say Mach Number]

Ryanair DIDNT start pay to fly.

It was happening before Ryanair I should know I paid half my turbo prop rating for a now defunct Brit airline in the mid 90s......

For those round long enough before Ryanair there has always been an endless supply of wannabee pilots wanting that prized job who would do it for next to nothing.

I was one of them back then. Luckily for me I always got paid to fly an airplane and still am getting paid.

Lets not kid ourselves Ryanair changed anything in that respect.

All Ryanair did was saw an opportunity in the type rating market and took it. Just wish I had thought of it first............

[somethingclever]

The trend is still worsening terms. The only thing that will change this is terms becoming bad enough that even the dreamers realize that it's not worth it. Then a shortage will ensue and terms will have to come back up again until balance between supply and demand is restored. It's already begun, by people who are realists and can do math. Next up will be the nerds who think flying is a lifestyle. After that the rich kids who realize that even with dad paying everything, what's the point when you'll be working 15hr shifts with minimum rest and sleeping in airport hotels. Chronically fatigued and with a friend-count ticking down fast. Just try flying with some 60-year old captain on his ninth company and fourth wife, still flying to pay child support and scrape together some kind of pension. If you ever need a wake-up call, that'll do nicely.

Personally I'm working to get out and I have what most would call a pretty great job. Good pay, a pension, everything paid for and no commuting. But why are these things considered special? Things that are considered normal in other qualified jobs are somehow "perks" in aviation. It took me six years from setting foot at school to putting on my two airline stripes. It took me two more to lose all interest in the job. Upgrading to captain later helped some, but not for long. If you have any intellectual capacity this job will sandpaper your brain into a dull, one-trick pony machine if you let it.

I've met plenty of seriously sharp people who could do far better for themselves in other sectors or in their own business. Before I started flying I used to labor under the illusion that airline captains are exceptional beings. Upholders of impeccable standards. I've since found plenty who are mediocre, self-serving and small-minded. Eager to sell their dignity and stab their colleagues in the back for personal gains. Foul-mouthed, outspoken racists and chauvinists with the most shallow understanding of regulations, systems and operations. Mr VNAV/LNAV reading his golfing magazine and bitching about immigrants stealing all the women or explaining which cabin crew he would like to do what with.

No sir, not impressed. I have one life to live and I'll be damned if I spend it staring out the window of an airplane for a company trying to turn me into a contracting serf without rights.

Plenty would be willing to replace me for half the money. Plenty more would replace them for half again. Like I said, rock bottom has still not been reached, we are still free falling. Wait for the thud before there's any hope of improvement.

[Right Engine]

The job is good if you like sitting doing nothing for around 80% of your time

Sounds like the words of a Long Haul pilot. Yawn. I appreciate your other points.

[ulugbek-pilot]

Some ex pilots that quit or that is going to,whats the need to show your enmity. Show some respect to an aviation. You should only blame some people that's making it look the way it is

[Killaroo]

ulugbek-pilot Some ex pilots that quit or that is going to,whats the need to show your enmity. Show some respect to an aviation. You should only blame some people that's making it look the way it is

Say wha?
Are you really an airline pilot? With that level of English? I think you're pulling our legs!


The trend is still worsening terms. The only thing that will change this is terms becoming bad enough that even the dreamers realize that it's not worth it. Then a shortage will ensue and terms will have to come back up again until balance between supply and demand is restored. It's already begun, by people who are realists and can do math. Next up will be the nerds who think flying is a lifestyle. After that the rich kids who realize that even with dad paying everything, what's the point when you'll be working 15hr shifts with minimum rest and sleeping in airport hotels. Chronically fatigued and with a friend-count ticking down fast. Just try flying with some 60-year old captain on his ninth company and fourth wife, still flying to pay child support and scrape together some kind of pension. If you ever need a wake-up call, that'll do nicely.

Personally I'm working to get out and I have what most would call a pretty great job. Good pay, a pension, everything paid for and no commuting. But why are these things considered special? Things that are considered normal in other qualified jobs are somehow "perks" in aviation. It took me six years from setting foot at school to putting on my two airline stripes. It took me two more to lose all interest in the job. Upgrading to captain later helped some, but not for long. If you have any intellectual capacity this job will sandpaper your brain into a dull, one-trick pony machine if you let it.

I've met plenty of seriously sharp people who could do far better for themselves in other sectors or in their own business. Before I started flying I used to labor under the illusion that airline captains are exceptional beings. Upholders of impeccable standards. I've since found plenty who are mediocre, self-serving and small-minded. Eager to sell their dignity and stab their colleagues in the back for personal gains. Foul-mouthed, outspoken racists and chauvinists with the most shallow understanding of regulations, systems and operations. Mr VNAV/LNAV reading his golfing magazine and bitching about immigrants stealing all the women or explaining which cabin crew he would like to do what with.

No sir, not impressed. I have one life to live and I'll be damned if I spend it staring out the window of an airplane for a company trying to turn me into a contracting serf without rights.

Plenty would be willing to replace me for half the money. Plenty more would replace them for half again. Like I said, rock bottom has still not been reached, we are still free falling. Wait for the thud before there's any hope of improvement.

Well put Sir. Hit the nail square on the head.

[Denti]

Contrary to john i am someone who actually started the whole thing for love of flying. And guess what, the flying part of my job i still love. However, i can keep it that way mainly because i reduced my flying hours to around 300 to 400 a year while still earning a six figure salary as an FO (nearly three times the average income in my country). Yes, there is a lot of routine during our normal job, but that is the way with most jobs. I worked at one of the worldwide top biophysical chemistry institutes before as an IT professional and although it cannot get much interesting and diverse than that there was an equal amount of routine in that job, for quite a lot less income and less free time than i do enjoy now.

Yes, i did the whole thing, starting with model airplanes around six years, glider flying at 14 (minimum legal age over here) and then going on to engined flight and finally professional flying. However it is not a bad advise to get an university degree first and some professional experience before starting into the flying world. And of course not just getting a license either. My advise is always to start some program like lufthansa, swiss, BA future pilot and so on and if that doesn't work out do something else and fly for fun. Which usually keeps a lot more fun in flying.

As for worsening T&Cs, i guess that depends on the pilot group in question. I cannot complain at all, since the pilots in my company stood united we could actually increase our T&Cs considerably. Dunno how long it's gonna last of course, if the unmentionable airline from abu dhabi decides to no longer pump money our way all bets are off, but so far there are no signs of that.

[Killaroo]

Well I'm glad to see we've moved up the food chain a little, from shelf stackers to Doctors and Lawyers.

[Alycidon]

but really I got into the profession because it's a relatively easy way to earn a six figure salary.

what?!!

I earn a lot of money, I have nearly ten weeks of annual leave a year.

Is this some sort of infommercial from CTC??

This is exactly the claptrap that tempts people to ditch a real job and hock themselves up to the eyeballs in order to live the dream! FWIW I've been in aviation nearly 30yrs, have been in the LHS 18yrs and flying B737s in the UK for 14yrs and have never, ever earned a six figure salary or anywhere near.

I'm not alone either, check out Jet2, Flybe, FR, Cityflyer, Loganair etc etc and you'll find plenty of captains with many years experience earning reasonable, but not great money and certainly not a "six figure sum", many struggling to support a family and having to pay for childcare in order to mitigate the shift patterns and allow a second income from the spouse to help pay the mortgage!

Enjoy your good fortune John, but don't labour under the illusion that everybody in aviation is doing as well as you are and don't lead the uninitiated into temptation.

[Alycidon]

Well I agree wholeheartedly with those bits John, but the "easy (pardon the pun) way of earning a lot of money" bit just perpetuates the myth!

I fly with a fair few 20 somethings who have gone from 200hrs to total disillusionment in about 18 months and I feel that they should be made aware before they start, by those in the industry that for many people, it isn't easy, and there ain't much money in it either.

[ulugbek-pilot]

killaroo you're too kind:)

[RAT 5]

If you have any intellectual capacity this job will sandpaper your brain into a dull, one-trick pony machine if you let it.

Which is why I am always amazed at the continued high education requirements quoted on application forms. I say this having started in early 70's. The spiel was well educated, highly motivated, a leader, a team player, preferably university with maths and a science, good communicator etc. etc. I was told the airline did not recruit F/O's only future captains. Airline ambassadors and a manager of the whole cheebang. What clap trap as they treated you like school boys, even when captain, and had no interest in any suggestions about how to improve the operation. You were lacking the 'big picture'. And today the same tosh is still heard. No wonder there is such dissolution.

it is still a way to make a good salary and have a decent lifestyle, as long as you go in with your eyes wide open and accept that the job is just not that interesting or challenging.

That's the thing; it is not a career for the love of flying. You do that upside down every weekend at the local club paid for by a proper job. The airline is a way of life that happens to involve travel and be above the ground. It depends on who you work for and what a/c you fly. Even within the same company the way of life is determined by the a/c. and can be altered by choice if you are lucky. But you could end up in a life style you are not suited to. There is no such thing as being a pilot = what I always wanted to be. It depends on too many variables over which you have no control. Your pilot mate who suggested the job might have a luxury swan of a life compared to what your number the roulette wheel threw up. It's an enormous gamble and an expensive one. If you have a flag carrier seat in your hands you can predict reasonably what your future will be and make a reasoned choice. If you are in the open market, be prepared…….

[SR71]

but I've been in this business for 35 years

&

Career aviation is for numbskulls.

The irony!

Everyone's a wizard in retrospect.

The reason behind the ongoing excess of supply over demand, is inspite of what Hullabaloo suggests, the perception is that the cost:benefit equation is still in favour of making the leap...for a whole host of reasons.

[Killaroo]

If you'd been around 35 years ago, you'd have entered this profession as either an airline Cadet (full training paid by the airline) or as a military pilot (full training paid by the State). There weren't many other options. This was the norm.

Then, you'd have started a career with what is now called a 'legacy carrier' - for there were few others. No LCCs back then. No Michael O'Leary's.

If you were lucky you might have had 20 years flying in that pretty decent environment, before the change set in, around the late 90's.

By that time I had the golden handcuffs on, and with my accumulated seniority I still had a decent lifestyle, even as it all fell apart around me. The junior guys were the ones taking the hammering.

I'm in semi retirement now. This is probably my last year in aviation.
It just amazes me that anyone still wants to get into this job.
I have to put it down to either ignorance or stupidity.

[ulugbek-pilot]

The one should try to understand. How could he/she be so "stupid" like you say, not even having idea about. It's a pity you're finishing your career having such ideas, anyways I wish you to enjoy the rest of your life with your family

[top9un]

You said...

"I'm not too sure which part of

Firstly, I do not enjoy flying. I wouldn't encourage anyone to get into the industry now

and

For anyone considering getting involved in flying: I still wouldn't recommend starting off now. The risk for the potential reward is too high. The chance of ending up with huge debt and no job is too great.

was unclear..."


It's unclear why you'd be bothering to post on here if you really do not enjoy flying however your advice is sound, anyone thinking of paying a large amount of money and spending a considerable period without income for the dubious reward of a job with a Lowcost is quite clearly nuts.

[Alycidon]

Good point topgun, add up the income lost over the 18 months training period assuming £40k pa and you are looking at a loss of £60k pre tax to add to the £90k that you pay the school.

Could be why accountants run the airlines and only mugs fly the aircraft.

[SOPS]

Agree Killaroo, I'm about to say goodbye to this industry after 36 years, why anyone wants to get in to it now is beyond me.

[Bealzebub]

If you'd been around 35 years ago, you'd have entered this profession as either an airline Cadet (full training paid by the airline) or as a military pilot (full training paid by the State). There weren't many other options. This was the norm.
I was, and that isn't accurate. To be fair I don't know where "Sunny Bay" is, but that might well have been the case in that part of the world. In the UK the airline recruitment make up, was satisfied by only a very small proportion of cadets, and even then restricted to less than a handful of airlines. The military leavers filled about a quarter to a third of vacancies, and the rest were all "self improvers" who had worked their way up through the GA/Air taxi/third level airline system. These "self improver" civilian pilots, even 35 years ago, were the bulk of the airline recruitment portfolio.

These days the "cadets" have expanded and squeezed into both of the career change markets, that is military leavers and civil airline career changers. That has made it much harder for either of the two latter groups to find F/O opportunities in any of the prime airlines with their own cadet programmes.

The growth in the last 15 years has been, (and if you peeked behind the hoardings) continues to be, in the cadet programmes. That is why I recommend that todays wanabees look seriously at this market.

Then, you'd have started a career with what is now called a 'legacy carrier' - for there were few others. No LCCs back then. No Michael O'Leary's. The few cadets would, but the majority would have still worked their way up through the system. Government imposed regulation in those days meant that "low cost" was simply a pipedream to the operators, however there were still many companies that operated on a shoestring line between profit and loss.

It just amazes me that anyone still wants to get into this job.
I have to put it down to either ignorance or stupidity

I fly with cadets who have their type ratings paid for by the airline and they start on a salary of circa £41K basic plus around £10k in allowances. That rises within a year to £51K basic plus £10k in allowances. In other words within a year of joining they are on a salary equating to US$100K (HK$770,000!)"Ignorance?" clearly not! "Stupidity?" I doubt they (or certainly I) would think so! Plus, they have pension schemes, private medical, loss of licence, Permanent health insurance, etc. etc.

Is that going to be the experience of the majority? Certainly not. It isn't going to be the experience of all but a small minority, but the opportunities are still out there, and there are a few better than this. Outside of these schemes there are still the "stepping stone" jobs. There were "stepping stone" jobs 35 years ago. These days the main difference is that a lot of those jobs are now on jet equipment. Using the "stepping stones" to advance a career has always been the norm, however these days it is more difficult to find those stones for all the reasons I have already described.

You can tell people this, and I do. Whether it makes any difference I cannot say. However if you want a fasttrack shot at the big league (without any guarantees,) you need to take a serious look at where that league is recruiting from, and then take a big gulp!

[MTOW410]

Unfortunately our profession is about to be dramatically changed in regards to technological advancements. We will be designed out of the cockpits. There will be one of us that has the sole responsibility to sit there in order to assure the flying public that there still is a human that could potentially take over or influence the machine. Once the generational rotation is accomplished, e.g. time has passed, the new generations will be comfortable with automation, there will most probably be no pilot in large passenger transport airplanes.

I have 35 years to go, I fly commercially for eight years now and I work for a very large major airline. My personal analysis is, that my generation is the last generation to fly two (wo)men crew throughout their career. A vague possibility is that I might even fly single at the end of my career. Therefore I cannot recommend to enter the profession without an additional academic education. That is why I attended university while I was flying commercially (as suggested above). I feel privileged having joined a major airline and having realized the dream (with 35 years to go), but looking ahead at our/my future, our future pilot generations, I see the industry, as some posters above, on a further decline in working conditions and remuneration due to automation and industry cost pressure.

To all 15-25 year olds reading this :-) Do not abandon your dreams because of this post but know that this job will further change..

[ulugbek-pilot]

If it was possible they'd remove people from the cockpit tens of years ago,don't worry,you're not going to be alone in the cockpit not in a passenger plane:)

[FANS]

We're getting a little lost on the drones debate.

The point is that technology will continue to reduce the core hand flying bit of the job, and the job is and will become more about managing and overseeing systems. Airline flying is safer and cheaper and done a lot more than 30 years ago, and hence this trend will continue.

They key thing is that people go in with their eyes wide open and that the dream of line flying does not turn into a nightmare after 2 years. I think threads like this can help to some extent.

I struggle with where the industry is going for new entrants, but as long as there's airlines offering BA T&Cs, there's a glimmer of light.

My biggest issue is that people still do not recognise that it is a materially different job/environment/£/status etc to joining an airline 25 years ago.

[Jetdriver]

A reminder of the thread title:

Becoming a pilot & Aviation Industry in 2014 - a disgrace?

[Artie Fufkin]

The OP claims to earn £40k a month from other interests, has to commute away from family and quite blatantly hates the job.

If people like him/her decide to continue to do the job, there really is no hope!

[SEAMASTER]

I don't post very often anymore on topics such as this I'm sick and tired of reading about people's woes blaming it all on the industry because they haven't quite reached the dizzy heights they thought they would have when they entered aviation as a pilot. Just to put a little more perspective on things, I work for a UK outfit based where I live and desire to be, I fly both long and short haul, yes three months in summer can be busy but on my current roster I will do 3 short haul trips and a week long haul trip to India earning a vey decent wage in the process for 5 days flying in a month. I do not sit in traffic 5 days a week in rush hour, I take my kids to school almost every day, the only days I don't are when my wife is not working and she wants to take them or I'm working. There are at least 3/4 days in a 7 day week where myself and my wife have the opportunity to go out for lunch and enjoy quality time together, just like we have done today !! Next winter I will put all my winter leave together, 5 weeks of it and probably go to aus on holiday with the family. I have the security of paid schemes such as loss of licence insurance, private health insurance, death in service insurance and a very good company pension £ 1200/ month going in, possibly £1800/month next year and I will probably hit the life time limit of 1,250,000 quite some time before my retirement. The job allows me to do things I really enjoy doing as well ie playing golf, football, buying and selling cars etc. My wife however does sometimes complain that I work less than she does albeit she is only part time working 2 days a week, for a quarter of my pay after tax. So there are jobs like this available in the UK today, yes it is competitive I know but to moan because this hasn't happened to you and to blame it on the "industry" today doesn't wash very well at times. Since I joined my company 250 new pilots now lie below me on the seniority list, why has one of these jobs not become yours ?? I don't know ask yourself ??? I'm not suggesting that my life as a pilot is perfect and i am not writing this with a "look at me, my life is great " attitude. I am fully aware things could change in the future but if you get into the right company you can lead a highly desirable lifestyle in 2014 working as a pilot in the UK, new pilots are joining my company right now !!

[Greenlights]

yep Jetdriver, let's back to the subject...

Personnally I would not say it's a disgrace, but it depends....
Now, when I talk to people or friends during a BBQ or party. When you say you're pilot, some people were more informed and replied to me
"oh, what about the income ? it's low now ? and you work hard like Ryanair ?"
Before when we talked about the job, people think about flag carriers conditions.
NOw, everything is related to Low cost.
Even some friends who are not pilot at all, bought the book about Ryanair by Fletcher.
I would say it's not a disgrace for being pilot BUT it's a disgrace how the industry has become. And accepting such conditions , yes it's a disgrace.
wannabe and cadets are pilots just for making video on Youtube and persuave themselves that they do the "best" job in the world, which is in reality far from that. IN the video, they do not show how mich they pay for uniforms, medical, hotels, food, OPC, LPC, the public transportation from/to airport etc...just nice pictures to make others envious and saying "oh, great video mate! i want to become pilot too".

Pilot is not a disgrace but for sure just a job like any, and in any case not above of others jobs.
I am passionnate but if I had to chose, I would prefer, now, working in the management of an airline than being a pilot.
In a LCC, pilots are just a piece on a chess game... I would prefer being the player than the piece.
Investing such money for being a piece ? no thanks. I'd rather, today, enjoy flying for myself and not for the others. (if we can call it "flying".....).
I had quit and have plans for this reason.
For any wanabe, it's still nice if you go direct in a flag carriers. Otherwise, it's really another aviation and spirit of it.

[Greenlights]

Seamaster, of course there are still good positions.
But the thing is, companies like yours tend to disappear for sure (the TC's).
Your career you're living will not be like this for the new joiners.
Talking about it in present is nosense. The conditions you have are the last one.
A new pilot aiming for your position, need to climb the ladder for 10 or more years (if he can!!!) ? So in the futur how will be the TCs ? certainly not the same.

[Mikehotel152]

i am not writing this with a "look at me, my life is great " attitude. I am fully aware things could change in the future but if you get into the right company you can lead a highly desirable lifestyle in 2014 working as a pilot in the UK, new pilots are joining my company right now !!

I am amazed at how many people in aviation live in a bubble. Seamaster, you are in an enviable position which most of us have no hope of reaching. Even the cadets joining your own airline probably won't. And yet we all fly the same machines in almost identical ways, to very similar standards. Most of us work far harder for less reward.

For every pilot joining an airline such as the one employing Seamaster, maybe 10 or even 20 join operators who will never offer such generous terms to their employees. Even in my 4 years with my current operator, wages for new captains have dropped by 35%.

[Greenlights]

Mikehotel152,
Even in my 4 years with my current operator, wages for new captains have dropped by 35%.

In mine, it was 30% just in one year (the next contract). Seem that 35 or 30% drop is the norm... :rolleyes:

[SEAMASTER]

I appreciate the above however new joiners get exactly the same T&C's as I do, same salary scales same everything !!

[Bealzebub]

I am amazed at how many people in aviation live in a bubble. You would be even more amazed how many people seeking out those bubbles, settle for pumpkins in the hope that a magic wand will make them turn into Cinderella's chariot!

[hec7or]

Since I joined my company 250 new pilots now lie below me on the seniority list, why has one of these jobs not become yours ??

I'm guessing it's because your company probably doesn't recruit that many new pilots.

meantime, EZY and FR will be hoovering up 600 to 700 new recruits between them this year.

your post reads very much like those internet ads scamming people into big earnings while working from home!

[SEAMASTER]

You always get one or two trying to lower the tone of the topic with smart comments trying to get a cheap giggle off people, however I am only writing facts as they are. With your amazing sense of humour I'm rather glad I don't have to sit next to you for hours in a day, there in itself might lie the answer why you yourself do not hold one of the more appealing positions in the industry !!! But I could be wrong !!

[windytoo]

That will be Monarch then, Seamaster.

[Mikehotel152]

To be fair, Seamaster, you were the first to elude to feeling a little uncomfortable with your prose about how cushy your life has been and it's not surprising that others have reacted with the envy you expected.

There are very few positions such as yours available. If the trickle of new joiners are getting the same deal, you might be even luckier than we initially thought - the only UK airline where terms and conditions are not dropping like a stone. Good luck to you and your colleagues. I hope your airline's business model is robust! :)

[Denti]

Even in my 4 years with my current operator, wages for new captains have dropped by 35%.

In mine they have risen by about 150%. Oh, and newjoiners get similarly higher entry level salaries as well. Funny how different things are, try to get a unified pilot group, it really helps a lot with T&Cs. But then, in many companies pilots are their own worst enemies.

[hec7or]

why you yourself do not hold one of the more appealing positions in the industry

not sure you know whether me or bealzebub have a more appealing position or a less appealing position in the industry.

The point is, smaller companies offering good terms don't recruit too many pilots compared to the Low Costs, so, more pilots will be working for the big names eg; EZY and FR and will find it difficult to move on.

Since I joined my company 250 new pilots now lie below me on the seniority list, why has one of these jobs not become yours ?? I don't know ask yourself ???

perhaps they don't want to work at a charter outfit, who knows?

I think, as in any industry, some are happy, some are not, the posts here show exactly that.

[SEAMASTER]

Look guys or gals for that matter, I didn't want or expect envy I was just trying to offer a different point of view to this debate, a very real point of view. HEC who works for a charter outfit, I don't and never implied I did ? We all want things better in the industry and hopefully things will get better in other organisations, I sincere hope. I will leave now and wish you all the very best for the future and a little late prosperous new year.

[Superpilot]

2 years into my professional airline career, I left what would've been a guaranteed job for life. I left a £120k per year IT career to fly in the first place with the first job coming 3 years after I gained my type rating.

The point came where the joy and satisfaction gained from flying became totally outweighed by the atrocious pay, rising living costs, the deranged and overly duplicative SOP which I felt was melting away my brain and the fact that they managed to pair me up to fly with complete psychos who could not even trust the autopilot let alone the junior guy on the right. Said airline is full of pilots from a certain macho culture. Macho types if you know them become very jittery when they're not in control. Each psycho came complete with a set of opinions that slated that of the previous psycho resulting in each flying hour of mine being devoted to pandering to the opinions and needs of the dictator in the left seat. Talk about learning from your seniors, all I learnt was that each one of them wanted it done differently. This is not what I imagined this career to be!

I haven't had the best start to my aviation career, I've attended 3 airline interviews, passed two. Never failed an exam or flight test, always completed training with the minimum number of hours yet I've managed to land flying jobs with two of the worst airlines on the planet. The first airline I flew for also had it's share of psychos, mostly ex-mil ones. I know my mindset would be very different if I had gotten a job with a home (UK) based airline in the first place and maybe that's what some of you don't see here. There are cultures, countries and airline SOPs that make this job a really :mad: experience for some of us.

I have an offer this year for a summer contract but I have to be honest in describing the reasons why despite having the potential to earn £120k a year I still want to fly. I have no interest in the uniform, the girls in the back, the travel. I enjoy the technical challenge associated with approach and landing and the view on a nice Summer's day but is this really enough? I think the truth is I cannot bear to watch a £100k investment plus £150k worth of lost earnings go down the drain. I know I continue to flog what is increasingly becoming a dead horse but I refuse to acknowledge it.

I am certain many of you are in the same boat.

[RAT 5]

Like has been said, it is not a job it is a way of life. There is no such thing as a standard career as a pilot. It depends on who you work for and which a/c you fly. The glamour days are gone. In UK that was in the days of BA. B.Cal, BY & Monarch. Danair had gone and Air2000 was just an idea. You knew what you were getting and each had their own training programs. Now it is cough up the dosh and take a gamble.
The new Virgin advertisement purports to offer the glamour of yester-year and is so far from the mark as to be very questionable. It's more like a scene from "catch me if you can" ands the Pan Am glory days. Forget it.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Superpilot - you seem like an intelligent guy. I cannot believe the early start to your career path is any surprise to you. You do not need me to tell you that there are countless applicants for a handful of jobs in the UK. Anyone earning the kind of money you were, in my judgement, would have been very ill-advised to commence commercial aviation training. You were clearly in a senior position, and you have had to face the difficulty of going back to being a very junior individual under the control of a difficult boss. Whether you are not easy to work with, or whether it is just the people you fly with, I really do not know. I genuinely wish you well, but you may indeed be advised to go back to your previous career. It will be a very long time indeed, if ever, before you earn that sort of money in today's aviation industry.

[truckflyer]

First one important point with reference to some of the earlier posts in the thread, I would never refer to anybody as a numb-skull or a looser etc. or any other remarks, for being a pilot.

But with reference to what B. comments, "If this is what you are doing, then you are not doing the job"
I have to strongly disagree, I do not consider myself super-human, or to be extraordinary in any sort of way. But during normal operations, there are 3 main periods of work load, the departure, the system overview and preparation for approach, and the approach itself. The time of this would be on average probably around 50 minutes with regards to high level of attention. With flights being around 180 minutes, this equals to at best high workload for 28% of the time.

SOP's are designed to be repetitive, they are so repetitive when done day in and day out, with 4 sectors a day, it has happen a few times that we can't recall if the various check list have been done for the actual flight, was it this flight, previous flight, I have seen these glitches happen also with very experience captains.

So the share familiarity with SOP's, and the imagination that we have done this so many times, that sometimes we do get complacent.

I would also like to get back to the pipeline idea, where I suggested there should be stricter regulations on the amount of hours to start with an airline, my suggestion was 1500 hours.
Of course FTO's and the airlines do not want this, because it would mean no more chance for the FTO's to sell the dream of a shiny jet. Many seem to disregard this method, however it would be a way to start making the aviation industry more healthy.
At same time I did say programs like BA cadets, Cathay cadet programs etc., would be the only good alternatives to the self-improver route, why B.. said would this be any different?

It is a bit complex to explain, however first with such programs as BA etc., there is a serious and very professional selection procedure from the start. I am not always agree with these methods, but such companies like BA I would assume would have great experience with such, and have competent people doing the selections. The criteria with such selections is always pretty high, and they will have the chance to pick the people they want for their company.

Also the Cadet would not be investing his money on empty promises, but there would be an actual job at the end of the road, which is the goal for everybody.
That the FTO's today, can keep selling the dream, and training people in an already over-saturated market borders to professional negligence.

I would still have the self-improver route, however this would now drastically change the peoples view of the career ahead of them, they would know that there would be no chance to get in with an airline out of flight school and fly a big jet. They would have to try to get other jobs, instructing, towing gliders, charter work etc., to build up their experience and flight skills.
Anybody who says such flying is not useful for your flying career is talking absolute BS.

Todays selections procedure with most LCC is shambolic, it does not take a genius much time to know what questions etc. there might be asked and tested, and the sim sessions can easily be trained in advance too. Today with a little research, there is much information available on various LCC selection procedures.
As in most interviews like this, it's rather the face value and personal character that counts, the tests are often used to differentiate on those who are completely hopeless. It's a lottery, I have seen a lot very good guys not getting jobs, even though they probably was much better then the other candidates.

The problem with LCC selection procedure is that it is money driven, they will rather take a cadet with 250 hours, than an experience pilot with 3500 hours on 737 if that's the companies type. How can this logic add up, is beyond me, oh yes of course, they guy with 250 hours has such much greater personality???:ugh:

Then the self proclaimed oracle claims : "The safety statistics in both absolute and relative terms have never been as good as they are these days."
In his support of using cadet pilots, what utter nonsense, the safety statistics proves NOTHING!

The aircraft today are very reliable, and in everyday normal routine operations the experience factor does not have such great impact. It would be in the case of some serious occurrence, that the experience level of the pilots would really come in to play.
So the statistics themselves are not very reliable to use as guide for how safe it is to use low experienced pilots today.

However it is for me clear that by creating this natural stepping stone, with 1500 hours, like they did in the USA, you will avoid people looking for a quick shiny dream, it will be a gradual process, which will benefit the whole industry.
Of course for the airlines, they will not be happy with it, because they will have search for people with a bit more requirements to life, than a bottle of wine and bed under a bridge in a sleeping bag!

"Just a short note to the stats regarding experience:
The finding that flight experience has a protective effect against the risk of crash involvement is consistent with previous studies. In a case-control study conducted among commuter air carrier and air taxi pilots, Li and Baker (25) found that the risk of crash involvement decreases in a nonlinear fashion as total flight time increases. The safety benefit of total flight time is most pronounced in the early, experience-building stage. When total flight time reaches a certain threshold, the marginal benefit diminishes. This nonlinear relation between flight experience and safety performance has been documented in studies involving different pilot groups and using different research designs"

Now my main reason for this suggestion is not just about safety, but rather to get the industry as a whole more healthy, creating less oversupply.

Another point with many LCC, there is a serious lack of experienced people within the ops and administration departments, many LCC looks to save money over the whole specter, ending up with people in various roles in the company that are not fit for the job, have no experience, and borders on incompetence.
There is a lack of strategical thinking, valuing people, and it is natural when they hire people with little or no experience. This creates frustration and annoyance, to be working for people that have very little knowledge of how to do their job, resolve the problems ahead, and totally lack leadership.

As Superpilot says in one post, there is a total lack of leadership skills amongst many inside and outside the flight deck.

This incompetence also borders on the stupid, when somebody tells me, I don't understand why the pilots are so ungrateful, they just leave the company without notice, it is not correct etc., well think a little, maybe there is something the company should do to address this aspect.
But they are so concerned about keeping costs down, that they loose the big picture. Sometimes to make success in business, you need to invest in people, these people are your image to the outside world. If you want their loyality, you need to show them that you value them, and that does not mean using East German STASI tactics to spy and back-stab and lie about your colleagues.

Bealzebub, a few things you should know, I know sometimes you have many good and valid points, sometimes you write a lot about very little, and of course you love to dig in my history, however few things, we humans evolve with experience, and so have I done.
I am in much closer contact to this reality than you are, even though you can come with lot's of explanations about the current state, and that magical castle is not available for everyone.
I don't have a problem with understanding this, most can accept we work ourselves up from the dungeons of darkness. But even in that dungeon of darkness there should be some light, something that justifies that you have the responsibility for + 200 lives in your hand. And that unless you report in half dead sick, you will be loosing your pay and investigated to see if you was really ill or not!
Of course your pay should not bare any relevance to what you have spent on your training, for most close to 100.000 euro or more.

You are working in a company that probably have relative good standards, and good ethos, and you can not comprehend the frustration shared by very many.
As you say, very few will have the pleasure to experience those kind of conditions. My point is that we are not all looking to be in the top bracket, but please give us a chance to survive and live a little.

It has to be repeated again, to many pilots I have seen are just system monitors, pushing certain buttons, going trough the motions of the SOP's demands - like a robot day after day after day after day.

Of course on certain days, with various nasty weather conditions they earn they pay, and get to have maybe more stress then they would appreciate. But end of a day of up to 12 - 13 hours, the biggest fight is how to stay awake!

Artie Fufkin - you do not have a clue, it is all about personal experience, all we can do is do our best, and hope for the best - I don't believe you with your "sunshine background" really have much knowledge about this situation. Than again I do not neither envy you or begrudge you for simply being ignorant, as your situation can not be compared to what many are experiencing in 2013 / 14. Yes it's true, in one month I took holiday, stayed at home and did my own old business, and this was the pretty close to the figure I made.
So when the s... piles up high enough in front of me, and I see nothing more positive left, I guess I will just leave midway during turnaround somewhere in Europe, and catch a fast train home!

For me personally, I would be happy to work full time summer season, and rest of the year I could be part time, shining of my boat on my off days.
I contrary to many others also value my free time, time is money, but many companies want to own all your time, and give you the privilege to have 6 - 7 days off a month. If you want to own my time, pay me for it, that's what I say. But to many people are accepting BS contracts - because we are all led to believe this is the way to the golden goose!

Also the mentality of different regions of the world is very different, and from more similar cultures are better. Imagine sitting on a 2x 5 hour flight, where every 10 minutes you sit wondering if the other pilot is alive or not! And if you try to do your own flight, there are only noise and barks of commands, NO NO NO, just leave the AP / AT and let aircraft follow its own profile, sweet and fun, and of course what joyous day.

So for some who say, I must be a nightmare to have in the LHS, you can't imagine the nightmares some of us FO's get to see in the RHS.

The joy of getting back home to UK and European civilization again, can not be described enough.

This is all again back to the management and how a company wishes to operate and tolerate. There is an intolerable attitude on many levels, and add a fear factor of trust nobody - it's pretty great working conditions and gives of course a great pleasure to live and work under such conditions, so yes, some of you sitting in your golden castle, only know a small part of the reality, and pretend you can come with all the answers.

For many, the only way to have a half ok life, is that they have second jobs etc., if that is the way pilot's want to go in the future, then I say good luck, and good riddance to the industry, as it is heading towards a very dark and dangerous place.

Of course there plenty of us numbskulls who accepts this conditions with pleasure, and would give more than half our body to get these jobs, I even met very experienced guys desperate for these jobs, but wait, until these guys have been more than 18 months in these companies, and go and ask them what they think about their jobs, and the life of being a pilot, and what prospects they might have, even after several thousands of hours on 737 or A32x - not a pretty sight, than again as I said before, lower your expectations, the companies will make sure you get exactly what they feel you deserve - yes dear colleagues of mine, it is a disgrace!

[Superpilot]

The irony is that the senior position gained in my past career is owed to the fact that there was a major downturn in the aviation industry. It wasn't a choice but it's defined what I am today.

Thanks

[Bealzebub]

Truckflyer (and all of the various incarnations of username that you have used before.) This has been a recurring theme since day one. No matter what anybody says to you, if it doesn't fit in with your narrow viewpoint of the world, you simply launch into one of your "poor me" tirades. You did this when you were training, you did this when you were looking for a job, you did this when you found one. You did the same when you started work, and now surprisingly unhappy with your lot, you are back doing it again!

Fine! Tell it as you see it. However you were offered plenty of advice over the years which you decided to ignore. That isn't my fault. It isn't anyone else's fault. Your choices are your decision. If long winded whining sessions on here are therapeutic, then they must serve a useful purpose. It was you, not me, that proclaimed that your chief pilot was already telling you to "wind your neck in" when you had only been in employment for 10 minutes. I wonder why? You shout from the rooftops how "shambolic" training, selection procedures, cadets, regulations, and almost everything else is, ad nauseum. Hardly surprising when you refused to listen to anything other than your own opinion and often tortured logic, year in and year out.

If you don't like it, then find something better. If you can't do that, then consider going to back to training tigers or flogging watches or whatever brings in the big bucks for you. I don't think I have ever read the tortured ministrations of somebody so singularly unhappy with their lot, as you seem to have displayed on these forums, and for such a long time.

I cannot decide whether these ranting replies are a justification for a decision you are about to make, or are having made for you? However I can tell you that for all the realities, for many young pilots (and old ones) there are still good careers to be found. So no, it isn't a disgrace. However for the X-factor generation of Getta licence, wanna Job, reality is often going to be messy. You can't always avoid the pitfalls, but being in pure denial about them cannot be the best travel plan.

You ask a question and now you have answered it yourself. Mere rhetoric, and no different from almost every other post since you started training.

[truckflyer]

This is no poor me tirade, I don't have issue with this, there is no self-pity in my eyes. I am actually one of the few that have been lucky, most will not achieve this.

Besides there are some things in your post, that you are referring to that I have not a clue what is about, whatever that is, think you are mixing me up with someone else.

Still matter of fact is that the industry is in serious decline, and look around yourself, unless you are in one of the few companies left with fair conditions, there is not much left to smile about.

Now I am in the lucky situation that I can make double captain salary working as a FO part time, if I chose to do that, however most are not that fortunate!

A quick question, you seem to have many theories of why everything is like it is, but you don't seem to have much to say about how it could improve, you prefer just to go with the flow, whatever happens will happen, regardless - so pilots might as well just cave in, and accept that the job is continuing it's massive downward spiral for the majority, while there remain a few privileged that can gloat of their 6 figure salaries.

Than again 6 figure salaries are also relative, I mean 6 figure salaries in Brazil, is not exactly the same as a 6 figure salary in the UK or EU land.

However these few, just need to wait until they also have to bite the bullet, look at SAS, Austrian etc.

I would prefer some progressive thoughts, instead of the constant hamster wheel replies from certain posters!
Do you honestly think I am some kind of ****, who have against all odds achieved what I have achieved in relative short time? Seriously, some seem hellbent on killing the topic, instead moving forward, or is it definitive, we accept it is doom and gloom!

[Smudger]

Sorry I lost the will to live halfway through the first post

[Kennytheking]

Smudger......classic:D

[truckflyer]

Well I do agree Kenny is the King!

That must count for something?

[captplaystation]

truckflyer

2 solutions

buy lots of lottery tickets/change career

I am so used to my expectations being unfulfilled in this industry that I did something really radical. . . . . . I opened my eyes, & I looked at the rest of the world outside of the world of aircraft driving.

And, guess what ? the rest of the world (unless you are into politics/financing/property scams . . .well, certainly in Spain usually all 3 simultaneously seems to be best) is being anally penetrated as roughly as us.

I love flying, but am woefully dissapointed in the general level of respect this profession commands. The general "prostituting" of ourselves that P2F etc etc has promoted this last 15 years has certainly done nothing to give cause for respect, but the seeds have been sown many years ago.

How many companies I have worked for where most pilots were pathetic little self serving mice.

Teamwork/leadership/good moral character . . .Yeah, great "keywords" for your BA interview, but, regretably when you try to translate it into a"real world" situation, encompassing sticking together to object to & reject ridiculous management propositions , pilots in general are "chocolate teapots".

Inbetween this, & the invariable influence of a management/Union that are intertwined together in a "trusting partnership" that includes the dubious synergy of enjoying a pint in the "lodge", is it any wonder that we have (as an industry) just sat back & watched ourselves being shafted ever deeper each year.

Thank Christ I do STILL actually enjoy the task of taking a piece of tin from A to B, there is nothing much else in our profession I could commend to any potential entrant.

[C195]

Is there a solution? I don't see one. P2F etc has destroyed the industry. I suspect those same guys will pay for their command upgrades in the not-too-distant future.

[captplaystation]

In Ryanair, anyone opting for Line Training Captain /TRE etc certainly paid own transport to training location, & own hotel. I imagine that the "cost" of upgrade to Capt (thinking particularly Sim ) is probably borne by the Candidate. I joined as a Capt so don't know 1st hand, but would be shocked if the "promotion" bore any cost to the company.

Regretably, I think that the day you dread to speak of has already arrived, & the cream on the cake is that a "new" Capt in FR, will in fact earn no more than he had as an FO on an "old Brookfield Contract", he has merely purchased a more effective "get out of jail card". :D

[C195]

Thanks, I didn't realise things had sunk to that level yet. I still enjoy the job but I hate the industry. Just working on a plan to get out early, while I still have my health, family etc. I really pity those starting out now and hope that people think twice before paying to fly.

[Depone]

shocked if the "promotion" bore any cost to the company

You're safe then. A month of no wages, 10 nights in a hotel at own expense. No guarantee of a job at the end of it. It's costly for someone.

[captplaystation]

Piece of ":mad:", nicer to be your own man on the day though, & better on the CV. . . see it for what it is, & GTFOOT ? ("get the flip out of there" ) :D

[Captain Boycott]

Threads like this are important to provide a reality check to those with designs of a career in this industry.

Those with an interest in a career as a pilot need an accurate view of the situation with securing work within the industry. This is one of the very few sources of information from all sources. And this source has no financial gain to be had from the potential trainee/cadet.

Alternatively you could just listen to the sales patter from someone who has thousands of reasons to tell you one side of the story......

[Artie Fufkin]

truckflyer

2 solutions

buy lots of lottery tickets/change career

Captplaystation, Truckflyer does not need a lottery win. He claims to have an earning potential of nearly half a million a year (12 x £40k) from his personal business. The simple question remains unanswered - why would someone continue in a career they so nakedly hate when they have such a good source of income from elsewhere?

In another thread he referred to today's pilots as small-penised, daddy's boy zombies (did I miss anything TF?) so I suspect the real answer is Troll. And a rather verbose one at that.

[truckflyer]

AF; not a troll, and you need to improve your reading skills!

Not 12 x 40 every month, was the peak month 40k, however what does that help? I have no time to enjoy it, getting holiday that conforms with family and my job, is close to impossible!

But it's true, I don't need the lottery, however I work damn hard and have had to sacrifice a lot, and it's clear the flying career can not sustain family life alone, and that is a questionable worry,I have very little debts due to flying, compared to many others, now a loan of £16K.

Not that other months is any of your business, but they would just be between 10 - 20k, if I was focused on it and not flying away all the time.

Regarding the other comment, you have taken ONE sentence out of its context, which is cheap shot, and nearly sounds like a Daily Mail journalist!

I don't hate the job, I dislike the attitude of the industry towards pilots, maybe you AF is the exception or you simply don't care if you get all rolled over and abused, that's your choice.

From responses to the thread, there just a minority of the stooges, and some might have invested interest to maintain the illusion of this career.

As in all walks of life, it depends on how much we value ourselves, obviously not all have equally high regard of themselves, and thereby you get what you think you deserve!

However as soon as the penis factor, look at me in this big jet syndrome wears off, other things like life quality starts to take more importance, unless of course you are one of those who ends up marrying mrs Airbus or Boeing, and abandon wife and children, or what we call family life.

No troll, stopped with that long time ago, as I discovered that was not very progressive or positive.

Don't hate the job, but pilots, not maybe me, but pilots in general deserve better conditions, however it is actually just getting worse and worse. Don't shoot the messenger, and a few regular posters here try to thread the middle way, which is neither one thing or the other.

This is a fact, that most of us know.

I try to tell it as it really is, like it or not, reality kicks in when you sit constantly thousands of miles away from what really matters in life, and you watch the clock goes tick tock, tick tock!

And you AF, don't have a clue what this is about! You are probably one of those Oxford kids, who had mummy and daddy help you with flight training, and you did it at the right time to get in!

[speedrestriction]

I'm a little puzzled about the use of the word "industry." It is being bandied about here as if the reason manufacturers build planes, airlines sell tickets and passengers fly is to provide pilots with jobs. I think a bit of a rethink is required in order to find the correct perspective. It starts with the passenger. Terms and conditions are NOT in a terminal decline - improvements are incremental and hard won by sober negotiation between employees/unions and management, not by diatribe on anonymous fora. Yes there are airlines where things are less rosy or more rosy but overall it is not a bad JOB, there are good companies out there if you know what you want and are patient and determined enough to get into them. Like most JOBS there are compromises to be made and this is where research comes in before you commit to joining the profession. If you don't like the compromises/benefit balance of the JOB then I am quite sure there will be some other profession which tickles your fancy. In spite of the various compromises the vast majority of my colleagues who I fly with would not do anything else.

[Sean Dillon]

Truckflyer, man up, shut up or go do something else!

5 pages of pathetic, childish whining and like others...lost the will to live through most of your 'War and Peace' posts!

I've been around UK airlines for over 25 years and have had ups and downs like anyone else. I have weeks were I struggle to take it seriously; I meet management and wonder how on earth someone thought you'd be right for that post; i've met gobby, cocky cadets and low-houred pilots, been genuinely shocked at some of the tosh that comes from these kids and have serious concerns about the next generation; would I recommend it to someone? Probably not! And I pity those who have entered this job now or in the last few years...but, I love what I do, I work hard to do it 'right' and to a high standard and I won't be doing anything else...

It is what it is! It's not going to improve over night...live with it, adjust...or simply don't do it if it's making you that un-happy or you can't justify it. Fighting it and moaning is...well, just making you the person you are on here! Because, and I probably speak for a few, folk probably really don't want to work with you anyway!

[C195]

The Unions (pilots) need to toughen up and fight for their T&C's, fight to have pay to fly First Officer positions banned in their company, fight to have a proper scheduling agreement etc. Only then will things start to improve. I wonder how bad things will get first or if that will ever happen. We are all lead to believe that we should just be grateful to have jobs.

[cockney steve]

We are all lead to believe that we should just be grateful to have jobs.

Because that's the sad reality??

Truth is, there are too many pilots, too many aircraft and too many flights which are not making a profit.

Wake up!...look at any airlines' investment, see how poor their return on capital is, then ask yourself...

"Would I risk all those millions, when the money would be safer in some Merchant Bank and make a better return"

It's obviously escaped a lot of peoples' attention that most airlines are LOOSING MONEY....they are paying a subsidy to the shiny jet, the Pax and YOU, the crew....they do this in the hope that things will improve and they'll actually make a decent return...but, the longer they run at a loss, the longer it's going to take to recoup that loss , before a profit emerges

Many don't make it!...short memories here? bankrupt airlines with unloved, unwanted aircraft which rapidly deteriorate and depreciate to scrap value.

Yes, the odd operator does make a good profit (all together, now.... RYR !)

but they have been ruthless exploiters of the market place, to get there, keep there and be in good position to cash in when things get better.

All you whingers who think the Aviation industry owes you a living, .....easy solution....club together and buy an airline out of bankruptcy....you'll get an incredible bargain at someone -else's expense, then you can cash in as owners.

[Greenlights]

I agree with some coments above.

Truckflyer, why don't you quit flying as career ?
That's a real question Im asking you, because personnally I did it. Or maybe you can't for the moment ? sorry if it's the case...
I have a business now too, and am happier. And I fly of course on weekends (more than before).
I entered the industry a few years ago, and fortunately I was aware enough, and I have seen how the bad joke it was and how it will be...

The T&C will always decline for sure. In a few years, say good bye to Europeans carriers and say hello to Emirates, etc... working as slaves. No thanks.
I still keep my licence though and take news from here, we never know, and if Air France will hire again one day I will applicate but I think the company is sinking very slowly like the Titanic...here it's very bad.
To resume it's simple : if you can't do anything or change anything, then leave it. :) Chose the life that you want.
It's easier to stay in a ****ty stuation because we know it than moving on. To move on, it requires courage, cause human being is always worried about the unknown.
Now, if I would recommend this career in 2014 ? no way. It's not a career. It's gipsy lifestyle in a lottery game. You can not climb the ladder with your hardwork only, you need luck and alot.
If people look for a real career where your work is rewarded and if you want to have a minimum control of your career path, then do something else.
Good luck.

[Killaroo]

Quote:
We are all lead to believe that we should just be grateful to have jobs.
Because that's the sad reality??

Truth is, there are too many pilots, too many aircraft and too many flights which are not making a profit.

Wake up!...look at any airlines' investment, see how poor their return on capital is, then ask yourself...

"Would I risk all those millions, when the money would be safer in some Merchant Bank and make a better return"

It's obviously escaped a lot of peoples' attention that most airlines are LOOSING MONEY....they are paying a subsidy to the shiny jet, the Pax and YOU, the crew....they do this in the hope that things will improve and they'll actually make a decent return...but, the longer they run at a loss, the longer it's going to take to recoup that loss , before a profit emerges

Many don't make it!...short memories here? bankrupt airlines with unloved, unwanted aircraft which rapidly deteriorate and depreciate to scrap value.

Yes, the odd operator does make a good profit (all together, now.... RYR !)

but they have been ruthless exploiters of the market place, to get there, keep there and be in good position to cash in when things get better.

All you whingers who think the Aviation industry owes you a living, .....easy solution....club together and buy an airline out of bankruptcy....you'll get an incredible bargain at someone -else's expense, then you can cash in as owners.


Very silly post.
Perhaps pilots should work for nothing - the airlines can't afford the drivers of their multi million dollar money makers!
Fuel is pretty expensive too. Maybe they should get that free also.
And maintenance.

Are you for real?

It's all part of the cost of doing business matey. There's no shortage of poor little rich guys wanting to start airlines. Have you noticed the manufacturers order books are full?
Perhaps they too fall foul of the glamour and 'prestige' of owning an airline. They should think twice before getting into a business they can't make money at.
Just like the foolish drivers should.

[C195]

I'd sooner see some balance and if that meant fewer companies that have reasonable T&Cs then so be it. Rather that than pay to fly schemes and this continuous race to the bottom.

Sure, that would mean more competition for less jobs but at least they would be real jobs worth having, rather than what we have now, at least for new pilots. For example, type ratings provided in exchange for a bond, a fixed base, a salary, a reasonable roster etc. The selection process could then include other things than the person's ability to borrow vast sums of money. I think that would improve safety.

If the legislators could somehow ban pay to fly schemes then at least it would be a level playing field for all the operators and they would then have to find other ways to save or make money. It ain't going to happen though.

I have seen many very good pilots miss out on a start yet some very dubious individuals buy their way into airline flying. Training these guys has clearly shown me that they are not the best people for the job as far as safety and efficiency is concerned.

[truckflyer]

cockney steve :

"most airlines are LOOSING MONEY!"

What a complete nonsense statement, do you really believe that?

What incredible and absolute BS!

On the contrary, the airlines actively try to scam governments, employees, by social dumping. Not paying the applicable taxes for their employees, social benefits etc., they looking for every legal and illegal trick in the book, and the only reason they are getting away with it, is incompetence in to many public offices.
However awareness will eventually change this in the future.

If the airline is not sustainable by paying a decent wage and giving decent T & C's in line with the job that is being done, than I am sorry to say, that airline does NOT deserve to survive.

This is simple business, first balance the books, than see how much profit you can make, than see how much you can slim down on the expenses side to get the most possible profit.

Why is Southwest not having such issues? They were founders of LoCo's?

I subscribe to the view too, that rather have fewer airlines, but that provide decent T & C's, than have loads of companies, not able to survive if they pay all what they legally should do.

The question you must ask yourself, how much does the crew salary represent on an average ticket price?

Say if you as an FO made 5000 Euros a month, before tax, this would per year be 60.000 Euros, which imho is a fair pay for an FO.
Add such extra expenses that this employee will cost the company such as Sims, hotel, extras, let's say with pensions and all, this cost the airline another 20.000 Euros, for social contributions etc, so the FO would be costing the airline 80.000 Euros a year.

If he flies 900 hours a year, and the average sectors are around 2 hours, that makes it 450 sectors in one year. Each sector have an average of 130 passengers - now lets do the maths, what is the cost for the airline for this FO? Simple, 80.000 Euros / 58.500 Pax = 1.36 cents per ticket would it cost the airline to give a pilot a decent pay.
These figures can be studied in places like CAPA, if you care about aviation, instead of just sitting there watching the magenta line!

I revised the maths, you was right, did an error there. Sorry.

However have in mind this also includes the company paying proper social contribution, pensions etc. Of course this is over-simplified, the cost of a flight is a bit more complex. But it shows the flight crew is not the major cost of the flight, and if airlines can't provide a decent pay, because they are no making enough money, maybe it's better they go out of business.

[Jonathan22]

Maths check. 58,500 passengers cost 80,000 Euros. I make that 1.36 Euros per ticket, not 73 cents. But hey, let's just round it up to 5 Euros on the ticket and pay FOs 295,000 Euros. :)

[Alycidon]

Last time I looked, there were two pilots on the flightdeck, you'll need to look at those numbers again.

[truckflyer]

Alycidon; yes of course, it was just a simplified calculation to see the crew cost, if company was to pay properly.

To oversimplify it a bit more, if you not able to work out that cost, say CPT would be double this, you would have 2.72 so a total of 4.08 Euros per flight towards the cost of crew.

The airlines are looking to make it as efficient as possible these days.
The LoCo's however are saving loads because they are cheating society by not paying any social contributions for the people working for them.
These numbers would be for a regular company. The LoCo in Europe would obviously have much lower numbers, to show they are getting more value for their money.

That's the aim of airlines today, to calculate and make sure, the get as much as possible from per employee or contracter.

[cockney steve]

Very silly post.
Perhaps pilots should work for nothing - the airlines can't afford the drivers of their multi million dollar money makers!
I agree, you do make a very silly statement....the aircraft is a liability The operator is obliged to pay for it, pay maintenance,airworthiness requirements,
depreciation, cost of finance etc.....so, even when it's parked up, it's still burning money.

There's no shortage of poor little rich guys wanting to start airlines. Have you noticed the manufacturers order books are full?

nor is there any shortage of the same type wanting to fly for them

so, really, it's an incestuous relationship.....Wannabe pilots prostitute themselves, every bit as much as deluded fools think an airline is the key to the contents of the strongroom.

You actually answer your own statement:- They should think twice before getting into a business they can't make money at.
Just like the foolish drivers should.

@ Truckflyer....Obviously, with a business skillset like yours, you've missed your vocation.....you really should consider the post of CEO of an airline.:}

Apart from your accountancy skills, you've sidestepped the "crew" part of the equasion....so, you pay more to the FO...Captain sees his premium devalued, so he wants a rise....ditto through the cabin crew...suddenly, you're faced with needing an extra 10 bums on seats on EVERY flight,to give the revenue to pay these extra wages. If you really think the true cost of an employee is only 30% on top of their wage, you need to go back to school......been there, done it...try +80% as a minimum and you'll be close average is nearer +100% and the first tome a vindictive ex-employee tries the "industrial tribunal
route, you can start multiplying instead of adding....which is why, belatedly, they've introduced a fee ,to stop vexatious claims.
As I said before...a massive amount of capital and turnover is being punted around for a very small return ...I also said...if it's so damned lucrative, become a boss, then you'll have the penny and the toffee...oh, but wait, that entails risking everything and you don't want to do that, but just want the rewards..... envy!

The LoCo's however are saving loads because they are cheating society by not paying any social contributions for the people working for them. A ludicrous, sweeping generalisation...A minority have tried it and the slugs in government employ are slithering slowly towards closing the loopholes.

"most airlines are LOOSING MONEY!"

What a complete nonsense statement, do you really believe that?

What incredible and absolute BS!

Sorry, I meant LOSINGmoney

They certainly aren't marching up to Boeing, banging a wedge of cash on the desk and asking for "a couple of those" (OK, maybe some of the Oil-rich countries do!:p )
They weigh up the cost of offloading present fleet , against the liability incurred in upgrading, versus the more economical fuel-burn and operating savings....upgrading is also a way of persuading the punter to buy a space on one of your flights, instead of the opposition's.

Apart from an Irish operator, a lot of Western airlines have gone, many are in a precarious position...if you think otherwise, why don't you borrow money, just like they do, and get an airline bought? (sorry , the greener grass is a blinkered illusion)

That's the aim of airlines today, to calculate and make sure, the get as much as possible from per employee or contracter.

Yup, welcome to the world of business...wether you're making new "Dreamliners" or plastic dog-turds, the same principle applies, you work your assets!


In your dream world, there would be fewer airlines, fewer aircraft, the job would carry it's former prestige, the Hosties would all be gorgeous and "goers"
the airline would invest a shedload of money in YOUR development, without any security that you wouldn't jump ship as soon as they finished paying for your T/R etc...massive pay, inflation -linked pension......AHHH.

Unfortunately, only the top 10% of the population would be able to afford to fly and there is a large percentage of those , who already have a personal jet.

Net result.....dramatic shrinking of the industry, loss of economy of scale that mass air travel bought in the 60's onwards....what makes you think it wouldn't be you getting chucked on the redundancy scrapheap.

flying is no longer elitist, it's mainstream, utility transport . Like a lot of other professions (solicitor, doctor, teacher, accountant....0 the Proles are allowed in now and the exclusivity has gone forever. suck it up or move out!

[Nice24]

Anyone thinking of starting an atpl please don't, the industry is an embarrassment.

Paying crazy money for training with no guarantee of a job.
Ever smaller salaries which makes paying any loan off a serious problem.
About as glamorous as being a bus driver.
Never being at home at sensible times.
Working more and more hours for decreasing per diems.
Six monthly testing.
Many unlucky guys will have permanent worries if the airline will even survive or wether they will get paid that month.
And finally I can say after 7 years its seriously boring.

My advice is if you are bright enough to pass your ATPL get yourself into the city earn some decent money, get paid to train, go out for big lunches on the company credit card, and if traveling is your thing you will no doubt get plenty of opportunities to do it.

Think very carefully about joining the airline industry it's a decreasing industry with ever shrinking terms and conditions. :ugh::{:ugh:

[Wirbelsturm]

most airlines are LOOSING MONEY!


Odd, BA are looking on track to make a £1.5Bn operating profit by 2015. Perhaps I should be working for free to 'help them out' as well.


I'm a professional and demand adequate recompense for the job I do, the unsociable hours and public holidays I work and the working conditions (night flights etc.) I have to endure.


Personally I get well paid so I can put up with it, I've put up with the bottom end as well. If you don't like it then leave, I've got an old flying buddy who is now a NHS manager, he loves it.

[truckflyer]

cockney steve;

I would rather say it is around 30 - 50%, not 100%.

These companies today are paying you p.... and expect you yourself to pay tax of the little money you get!

And for many, much to many, the profession is not giving even a decent life or lifestyle.

Yes Steve, I do know a thing or 2 or maybe 3 about running a business, and I did not need to go school to learn how. I used my life experience, and I have been very successful within all the business I have done in the past.

I am sitting everyday thinking of how much I am loosing, just to get paid a can of Beans, and it ain't even Heinz! (and loosing is not just about money, but obviously that is also a considerable amount)

There are companies offering good prices to passengers, and good conditions for their staff.
No permanent success will come from putting people in conditions where they can't thrive and be happy.
Short term the shareholders will make many, long term... they will be history.

[Narrow Runway]

Why is the most common spelling mistake on this website the word "loose", instead of "lose". Or "loosing", instead of "losing"?

[talktomegoose]

The aviation industry isn't a disgrace. Travel outside Europe to a clothes factory where workers get paid 1p a day and work 364 days a year if you want a disgrace.

Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting.

But it's also very hard on your life. If you want the good, you'll need to take the bad as well. This is the only question you should ask yourself if you're considering whether or not to become a commercial pilot.

Ego plays a big part in this (and there's nothing wrong with a bit of ego). Everyone here loves to fly. We dreamt about it when we were kids. But why 'Airline Pilot' specifically?

- So we can impress the chicks/guys at the bar
- So we can impress our old school buddies at the reunion
- So we have something to talk about at parties


Otherwise, why not just become an aerial photographer or such like? Does size really matter to you that much? :E

If you want to be an airline pilot then become an airline pilot, but do it for truthful reasons. It won't make you a fortune - come on, you don't even need a degree or any business or professional experience to become one. We don't even need to be that intelligent - and I mean that in the kindest possible way.

I love this industry and I love the people who work in it. But I have, and still do work in other industries (where I make my money). And comparatively, despite being very capable and hardworking fantastic people, pilots are in general quite thick (I speak from personal experience and again say this in the nicest possible way!)

There is no requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc, so don't expect the same kind of salary that you get from jobs that do require these skills. The requirement you get is to work harder than you ever thought you would, cope with extreme pressure and worry, and try to survive in a turbulent industry where the companies' priorities are brand image and shareholder loyalty. So why should you earn more than a metro driver who carries 2000 passengers on their train on their own without a 'co-driver'? Justify it if you want it.

But overcome your ego and fly for the truthful reasons that you want to fly - then you will love your career!

Finally, my 'pprune disclaimer'. What I say or think doesn't matter. What you say or think doesn't matter. But our jobs and our industry is meaningful. So don't get rude or foul mouthed (and possibly fall into a catergory I mentioned above) if you want to challenge my comments or engage in a debate about this. Be intelligent. Be professional. Don't let us down.

I respect you all.

[Killaroo]

Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting.:yuk:

There is no requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc,

You got that bit right...

so don't expect the same kind of salary that you get from jobs that do require these skills.

Doctoring doesn't require those skills either. But there's the little issue of lives in your hands, plus the multi million dollar value of the equipment you're entrusted with. I could understand people accepting the boredom and monotony if they at least got paid in a manner commensurate with those facts.

[truckflyer]

talktomegoose:

First I don't feel the word disgrace is misplaced, starting to compare with such situations as you do, probably deserves an even stronger word than disgrace to be honest.

"Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting." I am nearly tempted to ask you if you are 10 years old? Or are you living in a bubble made of jelly and ice cream!

I think you been watching a bit to much Top Gun, to impress chicks/guys, old school buddies or have something to talk about at parties?

Well first you will have no time for old school buddies, and to tired to see chicks, and never be available when there is a party!

I can assure you, I did not become an airline pilot for any of those reasons! Sure some do, but seriously!!!

It's true you don't need a degree, but your ATPL is the equivalent of an undergraduate degree, if you decide to study for a Master within aviation, so you are talking some kind of nonsense here.

Few things first, the basic training you have with CPL & MEIR - does not make you a qualified and competent airline pilot.
I recall I was very proud when I passed my CPL and IR, but this was only the licence to be allowed to apply - the step up from that level to the airlines is massive and much hard work. Looking back, I can see how little I knew when I was newly qualified, however trough good training, and some great people I got to know, they helped me get to the level that was required.

People are talking about that the airlines expect to be making the most possible money on us, and returning as little as possible to us.
However if I have made an invest of £100.000 in myself, I do expect to get something back for my investment.
This amount, is fairly close to what most will spend on training from 0 until they are in an airline job.

I am not proclaiming I was any better than other newbies looking for a way in to this business. What I can say today, is that the investment so large, is very questionable, compared to what you will be getting in return.

What people like you Goose, have to understand, your training does not stop after CPL / IR, or after TR, or after line training, or after OPC, or after line check, or after you get 500 hours, to get an ATPL you will need to get to 1500 hours, and quite a few checks on the way, where you need to keep improving your skills and knowledge, if you even remotely one day are going to be considered for Captain upgrade.

So to belittle the profession in the way you do, is insulting for the pilot doing this job, and is a part of the problem, this attitude, to many are lacking respect for their own profession and maybe are in it for the wrong reasons.

That you say you have to work with something else to survive, is a major part of the problem, pilots today can not survive on the conditions they are being offered, and it will take another Colgan in EASA land before somebody might start to wake up, this industry only changes with the price of blood, that is the unfortunate truth.

Increase flight time limitations, there will have to be an accident where they can see the new FTL is dangerous before they do anything.

I have seen experienced Captains make mistakes, so that they are all always safe is not correct, that's the reason we have multi-crew cockpits.

Why should I earn more than the metro driver? Because he has not invested a £100.000 in his business idea and own training - it does not make business sense, seems to be you are one of those you are talking about, lacking "requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc,"

Also the metro driver does not constantly need to be tested several times a year. In 1994 I had a job as HGV long haul truck driver, I made more in a month back in 1994, than today as an airline pilot.

If you do end in a commuting situation, you will discover that most pilots hate that life, I have never met one who said he loved commuting half the world to go to job, you would also discover many saying if they had something else they could do, they would leave aviation.

After reaching TOC, and sitting for the next 4 hours staring at the sun or the moon, with a Captain that hardly says a word, and who makes a comment on every decision you make on the approach, I am sorry, I quickly loose the love of flying.
Of course in between you have some that are great, and the day goes faster, yet doing it for peanuts is not going to cut it for me.
Life is more than a fast jet to be happy! And I know that - it does not help that I have all the money in the world, if I can not have free time to go where I want and relax with my family.

If you have children, you can not take them out of school when you want, this will in the UK in some places cost you £150 a day. School holidays are always peak season in aviation, so you can not take holidays when your children have holidays.
If not commuting, less of a problem, as you would be more home.

They will always be my number one choice, ahead of any airlines requirement of me.

But let's get it clear, not all is even about money, it's having enough time so that you can also have a life outside the cockpit.

[Nirak]

The aviation industry will be a lot better off without the ex-military psychos thinking they are the rulers of the universe !!

[truckflyer]

And by the way, what is wrong about wanting to make money on your profession?

Why don't just all do it for a bag popcorn and a free movie ticket to watch Top Gun III ?

Regarding Ex-Mil guys, I don't agree there, I have flown with a few, and have never had much issues with them.
To be fair, most the people I have flown with have been fairly good, I am sure in every company you will have a few people that are less desirable to fly with.

[Wirbelsturm]

The aviation industry will be a lot better off without the ex-military psychos thinking they are the rulers of the universe !!


Wow, what a broad brush you wield, must be heavy with that chip on your shoulder.


sigh...

[Pablo_Diablo]

Perhaps because driving a train does not require years of expensive training and and the thing itself cannot really be influenced doing much except going faster or slower following the tracks as it moves with more or less unlimited resources?

[Wirbelsturm]

Pablo Diablo,


Plus, if the donk stops on a train or the power goes then the train can coast to a stop and the automated signalling stops other trains ploughing into it.


A luxury we, unfortunately, don't have.


with a Captain that hardly says a word, and who makes a comment on every decision you make on the approach,


Never happened on my flight deck, generally have a chat, usually have a laugh and help EACH OTHER at the critical parts of the flight. We ALL make mistakes, the important thing to learn is that the cockpit is NEVER a place to point score and spout the 'holier than thou' attitude as you are only ever as good as your last controlled crash! ;-)

[Superpilot]

I have experienced this at both of the airlines I've worked for and I too know it has damaged my mindset to the point where I gained very little enjoyment from flying. Bad apples and pilots with their own opinions are to be found in all airlines but the problem is 10 x bigger in the developing world. At my last place, I was deliberately partnered to fly with the same Captains again and again because other FOs refused to fly with them. One crewing guy even admitted it.

The point here is there are two distinct groups of pilots. Those have flown in an environment in which senior and junior colleagues are respected as qualified individuals and therefore trusted to do the right job at the right time (Northern/Central Europe, North America, possibly Aus) and those who have flown within environments where due to cultural deficiencies a senior will distrust a junior no matter what or no matter how capable that junior is (ME, Africa, South Asia, Far East, Latin America). Those who have no concept of this are lucky to be working for airlines with that do not have this problem.

I've flown in Turkey and southern China where the problem is huge. No matter who is sitting on the right, a lot of the time the guy on the left is likely to be a jittery, untrusting, ego maniac. You might remind me to man up and deal with it but it's no easy task adjusting to each dictator and following he's "way" only for the next guy to rubbish it and force you to do it his "way". Such an environment isn't good for your health or your career. The truth is there are a million ways to skin the cat as far as conducting a good approach goes and it's never the LIPs or TRIs/TREs that have the problem but the training captain wannabes (who funnily enough criticise the trainers). Unfortunately it's my belief that in certain airlines, these type of captains make up the majority and often you can tell how comfortable the cockpit environment will be just by looking at the name and nationality of your Captain.

[truckflyer]

Superpilot - What you say is very true. It can create a great displeasure to fly with these kind of RHS.
Unfortunately the nationality does have an impact, as I have experienced myself.

I must have my own little black box, where info is about who to deal with this specific Captain.

However I have tried to use ever flight, even these flights as something valuable for me, how I do not want to be as a captain. By the way, also within Europe these cultural differences to exist within some, and the experience can be like day and night depending on their age.

It can get a bit tedious, having to be flexible enough to adapt around every variation of Captains around in a company.
And after a while, and repeated conversations, it just gets to tiring to keep trying to change their ways.

And when constantly getting above average reports on sim checks and line checks, it just wears you down.

The main thing is to stay awake, to make sure they don't :mad: Up. Which in one year, I have seen 3 of these characters do.

[Artie Fufkin]

My advice is if you are bright enough to pass your ATPL get yourself into the city earn some decent money, get paid to train, go out for big lunches on the company credit card, and if traveling is your thing you will no doubt get plenty of opportunities to do it.

Says someone who has presumably never worked in The City.

It's as naive as saying "become a pilot, travel the world in 5* hotels, shag loads of beautiful hosties, all whilst earning a fortune".

[Mikehotel152]

Hear, hear, Artie.

I have loads of Uni mates who went into the City. They earn double my pittance but I'd wager I work fewer hours and have more fun. Working in the City is not 'fun'. None of my friends ever discuss their jobs out of work. They all want to know about flying. I also live in a far nicer house with half the mortgage of my friends because I don't pay City prices. Oh, and I get far more quality time with my child (temporarily, due to my current basing).

I can only presume talktomegoose has been watching too much Top Gun (great movie :ok: ) or working at professional recruitment fairs! There is a place in the profession for that kind of enthusiasm and, yes, there are the odd occasion where there is a perceived glamour. However, that is on the decline due to the deteriorating terms and conditions under which we serve our time. To suggest we all sign on the dotted line to seek such superficial rewards is nonsense.

By the way, I did as much actual study for the ATPL as I did for my two degrees, each of which were pretty undemanding despite being a a red brick Uni in very well regarded academic subjects. So, don't assume a degree is difficult: any idiot can get one from any number of the plethora of universities. Many people who get degrees would struggle with the ATPL let alone the basic flying, IR or TR. Yet ironically, in my opinion it's the dumbing down of the ATPL (multiple choice questions do not require you to understand the subject matter) that has made it too easy to become a commercial pilot.

Truckflyer and Superpilot

We've all experienced the cultural differences. Paradoxically it's one of the things I love about flying. I've met people from so many different backgrounds and nationalities in my airline. There are stereotypes and some days you have to bite your tongue or resist saying "Your controls" because they might as well fly the plane...but I must add that I have also flown with people from certain countries where issues are said to exist with CRM or attitudes to SOPs who have been inspirational pilots. Ironically, my least favourite pilots are just as often those from my own culture as from abroad. ;)

[truckflyer]

Mikehotel152 - about cultural differences, can't disagree on that, my 2 best instructors was from Poland and Jamaica.

However I have stopped listen to what other peoples experience is with a captain, so many times have I found other people complaining, and when I have a flight or check the guy is great.

It's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you get until you try one.

[Pablo_Diablo]

Exactly, no pulse in any way when the train goes dark... Just a "ohh" and that´s it - late for the meeting...

Actually if we use that scenario of yours a bit further then we could attempt to put an end to all future comparisons between buses, airplanes and trains except they all carry people from A to B.

It´s worth a shot.

If we would be able measuring the pulse of people traveling in different types of transport for example buses, trains and airplanes before and after we would ensure "everything goes completely dark" then without being overly optimistic we would possibly see a increase in the pulse and also increases in the pulse depending on the type of transport the person is in. As a result of that we would be able to conclude there are indeed more differences between buses, trains and airplanes than what initially appears to be the case.

Love trains. Quiet, no seatbelt signs, full carry on electronics without restrictions, no nasty booking experiences, more space, no issues with baggage, more of everything. Arriving 20 minutes before departure of course not problem.

Pleasant, exotic, every once in a while.

[dread pirate roberts]

Truckflyer: How much money/ time off etc do you want out of interest? I mean that genuinely; in your opinion what would be a fair package commensurate with your training, investment and current skill level?

I happen to agree with much of what Goose had to say. Maybe airline pilot isn't always the job for a flying enthusiast. There are lots of flying jobs which don't have hours spent in the cruise monitoring automatics etc. I don't think he was being deluded, just honest about enjoying flying and happy to take the rough with the smooth.

As far as I can tell your point is that you don't like your job much and feel like you, and your profession, are undervalued. This thread has shown that clearly opinions vary. Maybe it's time to cut your losses and start looking for something new that you will enjoy.

As it stands though, I think you've made your point.

Cheers

[fireflybob]

This is funny but awfully close to the truth for many:-

So you want to be an airline pilot?

[Hotelpresident]

Surprised ? This was coming and it was possible to see it coming long time ago. When the guy on your right is treated like an animal , it is just a matter of time before they will treat you like them whenever they will able to. Once they have broken their will , they will move to the next level and next group. Now it is time of Captains.

Tomorrow they will replace F/O with computers and finally they will place computers on any aircrafts.

They don't complain, cost less, don't have human needs and you can bit them whenever they don't cooperate.

Perfect system for O'leary!

[RAT 5]

Considering the rates that some agencies are tossing about it has sunk so low that I'd send anyone to the 'white coat people' if they ever mentioned the 'dream'. You have to pass all the physco-babble exams and interviews these days to see if you are sane enough and of good character to be a pilot. You'd have to be mad to contemplate it in this climate.
A jet captain for €5500pm gross with accommodation thrown in, based in an expensive EU capital. Self-employed contractor status for 6 months. It's an insult AND a disgrace.

[Pablo_Diablo]

Indeed, would be interesting to know how much in general agencies get for each pilot. Maybe it is completely up to them to advertise the salary for a given position. The end result is crap saying the least for pilots, you don´t work for an airline even if you are a pilot and all kinds of people want their cut from the salary of the pilot. In any industry it is always best to buy something directly from the producer to avoid a higher price, in this case it is the same but the opposite. For the airline it is the same except this way they do not need to worry about taking any kind of responsibility for staff since they don´t employ them.

Big business labor nowadays.