USA can seize travellers' laptops at the border

[PAXboy]

It isn't new news but I liked that it got fresh coverage.

BBC News - What happens if authorities seize your laptop? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25458533)
A federal judge in New York has ruled authorities can seize travellers' laptops at the border without citing a legal reason, suspecting the traveller of a crime, or explaining themselves in any way. What happens if they take yours?
The Americans make it so easy for us to love them ...:rolleyes:

I invite any other country to pass similar rulings and see how the Americanos react ...
(They don't like it up 'em, Mr Mainwaring)

[GrahamO]

I have always believed that TSA employees should have 'special' passports so they can be easily identified and treated with the care and deference they deserve when travelling abroad.

Then I realised that almost none of the staff employed to make your journey miserable is allowed out without a responsible adult and are therefore unlikely to be allowed to travel outside the USA. What adult would want to admit a relationship with one of them ;)

[Hotel Tango]

Big Brother is watching!

[One Outsider]

What an outrage that the Americans think they can behave like the British!

[Sunnyjohn]

Although they hate to admit it, the UK government are and have been for a long time hand-in-glove with the US. Sometimes I'm ashamed to be a UK citizen.

[PAXboy]

Indeed Sunnyjohn. It is notable that, whilst the American citizan has more or less woken up to the fact that their govt is spying on them - in this country, the response is mainly amongst those who are active in privacy matters. I wonder how much the Daily Mail screamed about this?

[grounded27]

Is often the cause. Non relevant, I remember Peru giving me a hard time more than a decade ago, their issue was one of electronics importation.

[meadowrun]

Canadian border authorities have the right to inspect any electronic device being brought into the country by a passenger by aircraft, rail, bus, truck or car. You can be obliged to provide any passwords to unlock them. Not sure how the seizing works, certainly will be if any prohibited material is found on them.

[radeng]

Certain UK electronics companies concerned with defence electronics have special laptops for people travelling to the US, with the absolute minimum necessary information for the trip on it and barred access to the company network. E mails back home go to a special account which is carefully monitored before the email is passed on to the addressee - sometimes, I'm told, to the extent of re-typing it and sending on the company internal network to which is connected a different machine. This is because in some cases, it has become obvious that commercially confidential information has been abstracted and passed to US competitors.

I'm told that if a UK defence contract is involved, a laptop can be sent in the Diplomatic Bag.

My approach is not to take a laptop, and any presentation material on a new and unused memory stick.

[onetrack]

Shock! Horror! Australian Customs and and Border Protection officers have the power to thoroughly examine ALL your personal property at entry ... even more so, if you have indicated there is "pornographic material" in your possession. :eek:

A 100% examination of all passenger belongings, includes "data stored on electronic devices" .... :hmm:

Information for Travellers -5 (http://customs.gov.au/faq/InformationforTravellers5.asp)

"Unauthorised use of cameras, mobile phones or other electronic devices", in certain areas under Australian Customs and Border Protection authority, is also a chargeable offence.

I would expect that there's little variation in laws between most Western countries when you are arriving as a foreign national for a visit, either as a tourist, or on business.

Every country checks you out quite thoroughly upon entry, to ensure they're not admitting people travelling under aliases, travelling on false passports, indulging in criminal exploits (or planning to do so whilst in the country), or just being a general scumbag and trying to enter the country, via a pack of lies.

"Border Security" is a pretty popular TV program in Australia - and it's utterly amazing some of the BS, outrageous lies and total crap, the AC&BP people have to put up with.

Border Security - Watch full episodes - PLUS7 - Yahoo!7 (http://au.tv.yahoo.com/plus7/border-security/)

Possibly the major difference between the U.S. Immigration authorities and Australian Immigration authorities is that U.S. Immigration authorities appear heavy-handed and brutal in their approach - whereas the AC&BP people are discreet and polite - although firm - but they become a whole lot less discreet and polite, if you're discovered to have committed a crime, or are lying through your teeth.

[west lakes]

Possibly the major difference between the U.S. Immigration authorities and Australian Immigration authorities is that U.S. Immigration authorities appear heavy-handed and brutal in their approach - whereas the AC&BP people are discreet and polite - although firm - but they become a whole lot less discreet and polite, if you're discovered to have committed a crime, or are lying through your teeth.

I find it quite amusing when US citizens start kicking off when foodstuffs are confiscated or they are fined for not declaring them
In most cases the same foodstuffs travellers are not permitted to take into the USA

[llondel]

I find it quite amusing when US citizens start kicking off when foodstuffs are confiscated or they are fined for not declaring them

I was never aware that one got fined (although I guess there has to be a deterrent), but when going into Dulles last year, I got tagged by the immigration official for a visit to customs extended processing, and other people were in the queue because they'd come in with a banana or other fruit in their bags and discovered that they were in line for a $300 or so fine. I remember many years ago they used to have bins and big warning notices prior to immigration at some airports, they've obviously decided to use forgetful and ignorant passengers as a revenue source instead. The beagles certainly have fun climbing all over the luggage at baggage reclaim.

[Heathrow Harry]

I've had some serious run-ins with Australian Customs and border officials - they're all the same - if they are having a bad day they take it out on the passengers

I'm amazed people are worked up about the US taking lap-tops - it was my understanding that Customs anywhere can confiscate ANYTHING

You can always go to the courts to get it back seems to be the answer if you complain

Remember that in the UK they don't even need a warrant to search your house

[MathFox]

I remember many years ago they used to have bins and big warning notices prior to immigration at some airports, they've obviously decided to use forgetful and ignorant passengers as a revenue source instead. The beagles certainly have fun climbing all over the luggage at baggage reclaim.

For optimal revenue US customs should make secret regulations... but it seems someone leaked the latest version:
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/82/~/travelers-bringing-food-into-the-u.s.-for-personal-use
(Actually, I think it's common sense to check the import regulations of your destination before packing.)

[llondel]

Oh dear, that's done it. I clicked on the CBP link and found a reference to Exotic Newcastle Disease. It sort of went downhill when a quick check on Google shows that this affects birds. I didn't read further, but I assume it causes them to wears skimpy outfits in really cold weather.

On a more serious note, I did once ask a customs official if a sliced apple was OK (holding up bag containing said apple for his inspection) and it turns out that it was. I guess I'd sort of declared it for inspection purposes simply by asking.

[ExXB]

Never take anything across borders that you do not want copied, looked at and/or seized. This includes internal borders in the Schengen area. There are ways to access data/information (somewhat) securely but don't depend on it.

No, I'm not paranoid. They really are out to get me, and you. Why? Because they can.

[belfrybat]

Clean out the notebook before travelling. Encrypt your sensitive files and put on the company or other secure (passworded) server. Download and decrypt at destination.

[ExXB]

Do you really think the NSA, et al, can't decrypt your download?

[NWA SLF]

Any American who did not realize their data transmissions including telephone conversations were being monitored was extremely naïve, but it makes a news story. The same news organizations that are horrified about the NSA have in the past 2 weeks shown records of one of our baseball hero's private phone conversations from many years back involving proof he was doping. How could they have texts, phone conversations, anything from like 5 years ago if somebody wasn't recording. Watch any television drama and they show how the phone data is being used. No surprise. My laptops, encrypted by my company but all the information available to any expert decryption. But - what can they use all my info for? I have learned that if I have a drug deal going down I communicate on a one time disposable cell phone and toss the phone on a cross-country truck when I finish. My computer - everything is an open book. In all my travels, however, the only thing I have been asked to do is to boot the computer to make sure it is a computer. British Airways is the only one to have insisted my laptop go as checked luggage so I avoid them as much as possible. I am a lot more worried about being drowsy and leaving where it can be stolen. That's when my company has come down hard on any of its travelers.

[Hotel Tango]

British Airways is the only one to have insisted my laptop go as checked luggage

:confused: News to me! Anybody else?

[mad_jock]

In theory it should be the other way round if they are going for the no ni-cads in the hold policy.

[llondel]

British Airways is the only one to have insisted my laptop go as checked luggage

If they insist on my laptop going in the hold then I'd insist on a written guarantee in writing for full compensation (regardless of Warsaw or any other convention) for a new one and my time to set it up should it not make it safely into my hands at the far end. The whole point of keeping your laptop with you is to keep it safe, checking it in defeats the object.

[mad_jock]

It will be in your terms and conditions and you will have two choices if they require it in the hold.

1. Take your chances

2. Don't travel.

[ExXB]

… and MC99 (the successor to the Warsaw Convention) cannot be overwritten by agreement between the parties. (That's is there to protect you, not the airlines) The MC99 liability limit (SDR1131 aprox $1742) is likely to be higher than the cost of any laptop, but you won't be compensated for business or opportunity losses or loss of data.

[RevMan2]

2006, transatlantic aircraft plot.
The immediate reaction of UK authorities was to limit carry-on luggage to essential documents, with everything else checked in.
If the poster is referring to this, then it had nothing to do with British Airways.
OTOH, an American carrier tried to force the last 15 or so passengers boarding a flight from Boston to New Orleans to gate-check everything in their possession because the overhead bins were already overflowing.
Being one of the 15, I pointed out that I intended sacrificing my legroom by stowing my bag under the seat in front and that I was ENTITLED by conditions of carriage to 1 piece of carry-on.
End of discussion.

[MG23]

What happens if authorities seize your laptop? (http://apicdn.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fpassengers-slf-self-loading-freight%2F531124-usa-can-seize-travellers-laptops-border.html&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fmagazine-25458533&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fpassengers-slf-self-loading-freight%2F531124-usa-can-seize-travellers-laptops-border-2.html)

Let me guess: it turns up on ebay a few weeks later?

[Capot]

Originally Posted by PAXboy
What happens if authorities seize your laptop?

They can read, steal and misuse all the data on its hard disc, as can anyone into whose hands the laptop falls when the said authorities sell/lose it as they eventually will.

So don't leave data on a laptop's hard disc, or at least on the HDD in the laptop that you travel with. It's so simple. Why do people do that?

[Heathrow Harry]

because there is only 1 chance in about 10 million that they will seize your laptop

[PAXboy]

Whilst I agree in principle, Capot, the chances of me losing my laptop - or of it being stolen - are greater than the chances of a govt taking it away.

However, the next generation will be living 'in the data cloud' far more than us and so the problem will reduce. Fortunately, since we know that the US and USA govts are already reading data in there - we don't have to worry about it. :ok:

[Capot]

I should have been clearer; having no data on a laptop is a perfect defence not only against the TSA, but also against losing or giving away all your secrets by way of theft, forgetfulness, accident, fire, whatever could occur to a laptop while away from home.


There's nothing new about remote storage except that it's now called the "Cloud". I carry all the data I need on a trip on a 16Gb stick, as it happens. It means I do not need internet access to work. If I were to go to the USA I would take an empty stick with my empty laptop, and download all the data I want after saying hello to the TSA.


I know, they can get it anyway from the storage, but it's more difficult for them. I actually have no fears about the TSA taking my stuff; it's all the other reasons for not having confidential/sensitive data on a travelling laptop that are important.

[RatherBeFlying]

If I had any data that I did not want disclosed to others, it would not be taken across any border. If a laptop was taken for inspection, I'd put it up for sale as there's no telling what hardware and/or software has been surreptitiously installed. Alternatively one could load it with the nastiest viruses imaginable inside a TrueCrypt partition with password: BillofRightsHahaha and act worried at the next border crossing:E

[mixture]

I want evidence of this BA hold stuff. Sounds like a bit of a tall tale given (a) they don't like batteries in the hold and (b) The millions of business (and leisure) travellers who fly BA every year with their laptops.

I suspect we might not be being given the full story here... e.g. perhaps the laptop might have been encased in a wheely bag.... which the poster attempted to bring onto a busy flight and so was told he would have to check the bag.

f they insist on my laptop going in the hold then I'd insist on a written guarantee in writing for full compensation (regardless of Warsaw or any other convention) for a new one and my time to set it up should it not make it safely into my hands at the far end.

There's this little thing called insurance. You might have heard of it. :cool:

inside a TrueCrypt partition with password

To all those people who naively think encryption is the solution to their woes...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png

[MG23]

To all those people who naively think encryption is the solution to their woes...

If the TSA start beating tourists to get their encryption keys, you'll have a lot more to worry about than what you might have on your laptop.

And, frankly, there won't be many TSA jobs, because no-one will fly to America any more.

[mixture]

If the TSA start beating tourists to get their encryption keys, you'll have a lot more to worry about than what you might have on your laptop.

Aaah... but in the home of waterboarding, guantanamo bay and extraordinary renditions, only Western country to still carry out capital punishments (and actively considering re-introducing death by firing squad I gather because nobody will sell the injection chemicals anymore) the TSA won't be the ones doing the beating.... it'll probably be some chap called Ahmed conveniently located off US soil in the middle east. :E

On a marginally more serious note, I think you very well know I meant they'll just stick you in a cell until you reconsider.

because no-one will fly to America any more.

Well, they're already discouraging visitors with all their kneejerk reactions of fingerprinting, photo taking, body scanning....

'Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.' .... as one of their very own presidents said.

[Aisle Dweller]

On all my travels abroad including the US nobody has ever bothered to check my lap top, I-Pad or I-Phone with the exemption of those friendly guys in U.A.E, Oman and other charming Middle East Nations ruled by the law of the peace loving religion.