Dornier : A good replacement for the Aurigny Trislander ?

[LateFinals]

Dear All,

Happy New Year to one and all ! I'm posting as a PPL, looking to learn more about trislanders and dorniers.

I travel backwards and forwards to Alderney, Channel Islands with Aurigny on their trislanders which as many will know are extensively used on the ACI-SOU route and inter-island. They are relatively expensive to maintain, coming to the end of their lifespan and Aurigny are actively looking for a replacement model. I also understand that EASA in their wisdom have mandated from 1st October 2014 no revenue flights can take place on planes without weather radar, which would make for an expensive / impossible retrofit for the trislander fleet which currently don't have this facility.

One suggested replacement model is the Dornier 28 which has recently been trialled with generally favourable feedback.

It has been suggested by some, in the local Alderney Journal, the Dornier may not be an ideal trislander replacement because, with relatively quick sector turn-around's, the time needed for the turbo engines to adequately cool down to protect engine life, before being restarted, may be excessive, compared to the current trislander, which could have a bearing on scheduling etc. Is this true or a myth ? How long do the dornier engines need to cool down before being restarted ? If so this might have an impact on frequent "short hop" flights vital for a island airline. If this is a factor, could the engines be kept running when passengers are embarking / disembarking or any other solutions.

Any other thoughts about other potential trislander replacements for an island with an 880m runway ?

Keen to sample opinions from trislander / dornier drivers and others.

Kind Regards,

LateFinals

[Dufo]

Have you considered L410?
Also EASA certified and still in production. STOL capable and very spacious.

[Lowmick]

callum, that is actually Do28-G92 equipped with Walter M601D-1 engines instead of old pistons.

[BBjay737]

Cant go wrong with a Twin Otter as long as the legs are not very long, excellent STOL capability, -300's are nice, new -400's being produced are better. Great plane all around.

[TCAS FAN]

This is a Do 28 also, much better looking.

Photograph of Aircraft G-ASUR (http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationmodules/ginfo/ginfo_photo.aspx?regmark=G-ASUR&imgname=G-ASUR002&imgtype=jpg)

[Booglebox]

I think one of those Basler DC-3 turboprop conversions would work quite well :}

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/8/8/8/2103888.jpg

[AC-DC]

The DO-28 aircraft family is a very rugged group of aircraft. The Do-28A has O-540 250hp engines and can carry 4 pax at the back. The DO28B has IO540K 290hp engines and can carry 6 pax at the back. The DO-28D has TIO-540 engines (I think 350hp) and can carry 10-11 pax. All of these aircraft are easy to fly and maintain all you need is oil and fuel, the perfect bush aircraft. However, I believe that these days parts are not as easy to obtain, also none of these aircraft has radar. This leaves the DO-228 which is a turboprop. The 228 are also great aircraft to fly and are not to bad with maintance, don't know the current situation with part.

[Descending]

I fly the DO 28 G92, the Walter engines are great, very 'agricultural'. We regularly shut down then restart after a refuel, say 15 mins with no issues. The airframe is a bit old, the 228 would be ideal.

[snips]

EASA Rule changes will mean having to comply with perf A requirements for turbo prop aircraft rather than the BCAR Perf C. Twin Otter Let 410 and Do 228 will all easily do 880 metres Take off Distance but they'll all come close to Accel stop distance required.
Dash 7 would do nicely but none left in Europe and a higher fire cat would be a increased cost aside from aircraft operating cost.
STOL only feasible (legally) when nothing else works.
Reckon on about 15pax in a twin otter with alternate fuel and reserves.

[Sir George Cayley]

What is the reason that Aurigny need to replace the fleet?

One question that's always been on my mind is why no turbine Trislander?

The two on the wing should be a no-brainer so why has no one ever grasped the nettle and done the Damoclean one? (Yes, mixed metaphor)

THey say the best Dak replacement is another Dak so is the same true for Trislanders?

Or what about helicopters?

SGC

[silverknapper]

Snips

Unless I'm mistaken Easa have dropped that ridiculous amendment regarding small turboprops having to comply with perf A

[PAPI-74]

http://www.ruag.com/do228ng_en/_Downloads/Brochure-Dornier-228-NG-Commuter

If you want an island hopper, this is the one.....
It's limited to 10,000' but who needs it for 75nm at 240kts. Yes you get some bit cells over the South coast, but no matter how high you cruise, you have to make an approach at some point.

Not as nice as the DO328, but it will be much cheaper to operate, making ticket prices sweeter for the passengers.

The crosswind limit of 30kts is better that the 328 (21 kts) which frustrated passengers and Blue Islands when it was down there. The reason being it lost rudder authority and was really twitchy with its narrow gear. Landing was fine, but any issue on take off and your arse would take a bite out of the seat.

Aurigny tries out Dornier 19-seater « This Is Guernsey (http://www.thisisguernsey.com/news/news-from-alderney/2013/11/14/aurigny-tries-out-dornier-19-seater/)

As for the safety record, any aircraft badly maintained and operated by muppets is asking for an accident.

[snips]

That horrible Perf A requirement is still there for PART CAT, though there is a get out clause in PART NCC.

I'd love to be wrong, delving through all the EASA PARTS it's easy to miss things!

[flyboyike]

What about a Beech 1900?

[PAPI-74]

Too old (last built in 2002) and a few pax too small I recon...

[flyboyike]

Too old compared to the Trislander? Or too small, for that matter?

[Agaricus bisporus]

What's "too old"?
You aren't going to find many (hardly any) Do228s built after 2000, and any that were, like that rather optimistic new gen version, will be grievously expensive as a follow-on to the Trislander.
Good aeroplane though, but the original 228's Garrets (don't know about the new gen's ones) were tetchy and delicate and needed careful handling. If only they'd put PT6s on it - they'd have a winner.

[what next]

You aren't going to find many (hardly any) Do228s built after 2000...

You can order/buy new ones, either made in Germany (by RUAG) or in Inida.

[PAPI-74]

The Dornier 228 New Generation is currently the most productive, most reliable
and – with more than 350 improvements and innovations – the most up-to-date
19 seat aircraft in the skies. Particular highlights include the high-quality glass
cockpit with its cutting-edge avionics, the five-bladed propeller made of fiber
composite materials, and the optimised twin TPE 331-10 engines with improved
hot and high performance. All these innovations make for unique performance.
No other aircraft in its class can transport as many passengers or as much cargo
over a comparable distance as fast as the Dornier 228 NG.

Do 228NG - directors cut 180'' - YouTube

[flyboyike]

And if you can't afford a real one, you can always build a very attractive model.

Revell Dornier do 228 212 LM Marine Patrol 1 72 Scale Model Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Revell-Dornier-Do-228-212-LM-Marine-Patrol-1-72-Scale-Model-Kit-/201007842826?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item2ecd00460a)

[PAPI-74]

Bush Pilot in Africa goes crazy !! - YouTube

[Yogibaboo]

Here you have got perfect aircraft for this mission:

PZL MIELEC (http://www.pzlmielec.pl/en/offer/products/m28/basic-data/)

Real STOL capabilities

[10Watt]

Well, l had a mate who once positioned in the front hopper of a pawnee

but there are limits you know .......

[rigpiggy]

I can't think of a real replacement as most turbines figure a stage of 1hr/cycle. I would think costs would be atrocious

[Agaricus bisporus]

The practical answer of course is a Cessna Caravan, but sadly the regs don't agree with that.

I too suspect that costs of anything multi turbine following a Trislander are likely to be a problem.

[carlrsymington]

If they have operated Trislanders for so long why would they not consider some Shorts 360.
I know they are ancient in airline terms, I know next to nothing about landing distances etc but they are cheap, easy to maintain (obvious lie there).
What are the likely pro's & cons?
Just asking, obviously not serious...

[PAPI-74]

They are old now and have been out of production a while, therefore, very few about. Old aircraft tend to give operational performance issues by going tech, even if maintained. Rather than picking them up from all corners of the globe, in various conditions, airlines are much better off getting a cracking deal from the manufacturer. Training on the Shorts is a pain too. It has to be done in the aircraft, which is expensive and limiting or over to FlightSafety LaGuardia - correct me if I am wrong.
As for the Do228, there are several in Germany for a fraction of the cost, which being every 6 months, will add up in no time. This training might also be free if well negotiated when buying new airframes, maybe even their own sim.

[toscana24]

Like Latefinals I have had many (over 100) flights on the Aurigny Trislanders to/from ACI (ex SOU) in the last 25 years. On a fine day with light winds landing and getting off the 880m asphalt runway at ACI / EGJA will, I am sure, be easy for a Do 228. However the weather at ACI is often not like that and the place can present interesting landings (fog, strong winds etc) and quite a few of my arrivals (and departures) have been on one of the (often wet and ‘lumpy’) grass runways (the longer one being 733m which is 60m less than the Do 228 NG brochure take off distance). So Question 1 is whether the Do 228 (old or new generation) can cope with frequent grass runway use (I recall that Suckling started at on grass runways at Ipswich, with their Do228s but soon moved to Cambridge) and the challenging weather of ACI.

Aurigny uses the Trislanders in different ways by season. In winter with 2 or 3 flights a day ACI/SOU/ACI (and ACI/GCI/ACI) only a couple of planes are needed (maybe only one with a faster Do 228 and a rejigged timetable). In summer, flights (SOU/ACI) are basically on demand with a theoretical shuttle service every 15 minutes on the peak Alderney week Saturdays. A reduction from 5 or 6 Trislanders to only 2 or 3 Do 228s will surely create a real problem on those peak days (peak days that are vital for the economy of Alderney)? So Question 2 is whether the Do228 can cope with those sort of schedules (and under 10 minute turnarounds).

But in these days of the bean counters, Question 3 is the crucial one – the economics of a Do 228 operation v a Trislander one. Two crew v 1; Turboprop v Piston – fuel/maintenance etc; Higher depreciation (an NG costs not much under £6m) or the leasing costs initially; and so on. Flight costs are already extremely high (£126 for under 100 miles) and any step change in fares could have a big effect on ACI tourism (and as Aurigny is de facto owned by the States there is a link between money spent on the airline and revenue generated in ACI).

I assume, having trialled a leased machine a couple of months back, Aurigny have considered all the above and are confident that they have made the right decision. I hope they will be right but from my standpoint the demise of ‘Joey’ will be a sad dayhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif !

[Geo73]

Aurigny operated the Shorts 360 for many years but you wouldn't get one into Alderney.

[PAPI-74]

The Do228 wouldn't need to cope with quick turn-arounds, if it carries more pax and gets there faster.
Wouldn't you rather be in an aircraft with relaxed crew who managed to stand up occasionally, or ones chasing their arse for 6 sectors?
The hindering factor is the pax with hand luggage and finding their seat. You are looking at 20 mins realistically - depending on fuel, coaches and generating a loadsheet.

As for the economics, modern turbine aircraft are very efficient and reliable, comfortable and fast. They could even do a triangle route from say Southend, Bristol or Cambridge. If they make the right move, this could make them a solid return.
As you say, price is very important, equally is reliability and customer service. Get any of those wrong and it will be the fastest way to bin millions!

[S-Works]

I fly the 28 for a living with the Walther engines. We generally run engine cool down at 20 mins. However if we need a quick turnaround we can spool the gas generators up for longer before we introduce the fuel and that cools them down to the 100c start limit.

The 28 is an incredible STOL aircraft and an incredible work horse. Its a 10 seat 2/8 configuration.

However getting hold of them is pretty difficult these days. We are the biggest operator and tend to buy them when they come up.

[drag king]

We generally run engine cool down at 20 mins. However if we need a quick turnaround we can spool the gas generators up for longer before we introduce the fuel and that cools them down to the 100c start limit.


I have a friend that does the same on the C208 down in Africa and I've done it sometime on the PC6, that's the benefit of a gas-link turbine like the PT6. However doing it 3 times a day would hammer the starter-generators and spoilt the party.

DK :cool:

[PAPI-74]

http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/common/documents/myaerospacecatalog-documents/BA_brochures-documents/TPE331.10.pdf

Plenty of ponies in the new 228....

[AdamFrisch]

Although the coming Tecnam P2012 is only 10 seat, it might prove to be an alternative. There simply isn't any aircraft made in this category that has the economy of the Islander/Trislanders. Turbine is all fine and dandy, but when you have high cycles and quick turnarounds, you can't beat reciprocating engines.

[S-Works]

Not mention most of it is low alt work so not turbine fuel friendly.

[PAPI-74]

But the only reason for high and quick turn-arounds is because the Trislander is small and slow.

Get there faster with more passengers, less cycles required, less overall time in the air, less fuel burnt (2 sectors in a Trislander cannot be less fuel that 1 in a 228) and increased time to the next AOG in the hangar.
The article below refers to 250/250/ lbs/hr (I assume that's per side) so that's about 220kgs/hr about £140.
I guess the trislander would be approx. half that, but avgas is much more expensive and if you are doing double the sectors, it just doesn't make sense. Might be a bit tight if you are at max TOW though.

FLIGHT TEST: Ruag's Dornier 228NG put to the test - 8/31/2012 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-ruag39s-dornier-228ng-put-to-the-test-375883/)

[S-Works]

Where do you get £140 an hour from? Have you seen the current price of Jet A1?

I would have said closer to £300 an hour per side.

[PAPI-74]

LOL - no! I just sign the chit for tonnes and tonnes of it.
I guessed it was about 1000 USD per tonne. Trying to plan a wedding so really rough with the numbers.