British Airways Incident at Johannesburg [Archive]

Mariner

23rd Dec 2013, 00:53

There was a considerable fuel leak. Fire dep was there quickly to hose it down.

Major damage indeed, hull loss would be my guess on such an old airframe. Quite lucky there was no fire.

Passengers were deplaned with stairs and bussed back to the terminal.

They came from the apron, and missed the turn onto B apparently. Found it hard to believe they went onto such a narrow taxiway, with that building being so close.

We departed just after it had happened, and couldn't believe the damage we saw.:rolleyes:

But then again, it was dark and the lighting there isn't very good.
Do BA's 744's have taxilights, or just turn-off lights? I remember some classics having only turn-off lights. In Africa I use the landing lights often when taxiing.

I can see 'Follow the green' being one of the recommendations from the upcoming investigation...

And an incident of this magnitude belongs in Rumours & News indeed.

DIBO

23rd Dec 2013, 01:17

I can see 'Follow the green' being one of the recommendations from the upcoming investigation...So no greens on taxilane M, then? If so, pretty embarrassing incident, straying away from the greens at night... Would recommend also some 'MAX SPAN ..." markings on M

Mariner

23rd Dec 2013, 01:46

I didn't mean it like that Dibo.

JNB doesn't have that system (unless I've missed it completely).
While it could have saved the day here...

B-HKD

23rd Dec 2013, 01:49

But then again, it was dark and the lighting there isn't very good.
Do BA's 744's have taxilights, or just turn-off lights? I remember some classics having only turn-off lights. In Africa I use the landing lights often when taxiing.

BA only have turn-off lights on the -400. However, they use the outboard landing lights during taxi to compensate for the lack of taxi lights.

Worked on the classic which never had a taxi light customer option, so I assume they decided to go without them on the -400. Just like Cathay, Lufthansa etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the wheels on the wing gear ended up in the mud.

JammedStab

23rd Dec 2013, 02:35

Doesn't look like much of a centerline on that taxiway. Does BA have an Airport Moving Map installation?

TimV

23rd Dec 2013, 03:24

Got to feel for this crew. Even if they'd missed that outhouse they'd have been in for a tight 3 point turn.
http://i56.servimg.com/u/f56/14/32/14/65/joburg10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1503&u=14321465)

JammedStab

23rd Dec 2013, 04:31

Got to feel for this crew. Even if they'd missed that outhouse they'd have been in for a tight 3 point turn.

I would think shut down and tow out as more appropriate.

M609

23rd Dec 2013, 05:39

There is a caution on the taxi chart in the AIP:

1. ACFT to exercise caution when taxiing on
TWY B southbound to THR RWY 03L due to
Apron taxilane M extending from TWY B in a
Southerly direction.

Taxiways chart AIP (http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/Charts/AERONAUTICAL%20CHARTS/J/FAJS_OR%20TAMBO%20INTERNATIONAL/AD_02/FAOR__AERODROME%20GROUND%20MOVEMENT%20CHART_AD-02%20%2012%20DEC%202013.pdf)

There is however to wingspan warning, and the "taxiway" they ended up on is defined as a apron taxilane.

procede

23rd Dec 2013, 05:45

And then this was just a 747, not even an A380. Maybe we should require that aircraft have proximity sensors in the wing tips...

aintboeingaintgoing

23rd Dec 2013, 06:09

Got to love the press ..... Taker from News 24

BA plane clips building at OR Tambo

A British Airways flight bound for London has veered off the runway, crashing into a building at OR Tambo International.

I've often wondered why those buildings were so close to the movement areas...

Feel sorry for the crew!

kungfu panda

23rd Dec 2013, 06:10

Was it Night? If so, did taxiway mike have green centerline Lighting?

Capetonian

23rd Dec 2013, 06:13

A British Airways flight bound for London has veered off the runway, crashing into a building Wot? No schools, shopping centres thronged with pre-Christmas crowds, blazing fuel tanks, thousands of panic stricken passengers on board?

procede

23rd Dec 2013, 06:48

If you would have hit the building with a car it would have been called a crash...

Mac72

23rd Dec 2013, 07:08

Just noticed while watching some news
: British Airways Plane 'Crash' In Johannesburg British Airways Plane 'Crash' In Johannesburg (http://news.sky.com/story/1186278)

WorkInProgress

23rd Dec 2013, 07:18

One thing is for sure. Whatever the accident investigation findings are, somebody is going to get a real a**e kicking!! The BBC are now showing passengers stills of the wing. Really surprised the BA skipper attempted that!

akerosid

23rd Dec 2013, 07:35

Per G-INFO:

Total Hours:106615 at 31/12/2012

Add another 4,000 to that (since we're pretty much at the end of 2013) and the likely short future life with BA and I think insurers will be taking a long hard look at this.

Does BA have a reserve 744 that it can press into service; bad time of the year for this to happen ...

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 07:41

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q72/s720x720/1512696_10151796422006246_700735020_n.jpg

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 07:41

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/q71/s720x720/1524784_10151796422066246_446133026_n.jpg

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 07:42

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/q71/s720x720/1528662_10151796422111246_667142234_n.jpg

tdracer

23rd Dec 2013, 07:53

Does BA have a reserve 744 that it can press into service; bad time of the year for this to happen ...

BA shows four 747-400s parked in the desert - I don't know how much it would take to put one of those back into service, but probably a lot less than it would to fix this one :ugh:

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 07:54

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/q82/s720x720/945180_788784234481573_830604680_n.jpg

Dannyboy39

23rd Dec 2013, 07:56

Sir George Cayley

23rd Dec 2013, 08:10

RLT's photo on post 40 looks uncannily like the A380 incident at the last Paris Air Show.:ooh:

L8RMT

23rd Dec 2013, 08:16

BA are withdrawing 14 jumbos in the next year or so with BNLR due to be the next, maybe it will hang on for a bit longer now, they are being sent to victorville for scrapping along with the 734s

B-HKD

23rd Dec 2013, 08:17

110,000 hours on the clock. That must be up there with one of the oldest passenger airframes in Europe? I gather it would've been retired in the not too distant future?

What are BA doing with their retired airframes? Sending it to Victorville or somewhere similar? Or are they sending them to a salvage company?

Lufthansa retired the first couple of -400s with 118-120k hours. LH really maintains a gold standard of fleet utilization and dispatch reliability.

IIRC -BNLL had a heavy check just recently and definitely wasn't scheduled for retirement in 2014 and 2015. That may now change of course. Depending on the insurer.

It may cost less to put another frame scheduled for retirement through a D-check or heavy C-check (whatever BA does nowadays on the B744), than to repair this frame.

In any case, this proved once again that Boeing's 747 is a tank. Same goes for the 777 as shown at KSFO.

TopBunk

23rd Dec 2013, 08:27

Jethro's shows no planned date for NLL to be withdrawn from use. There are, however, quite a few scheduled for withdrawal in 2014. It might be that BA has some juggling around to do, as most of those being withdrawn will likely be due a major imminently.

I note that NLL has been at CWL twice in the last 6 months for maintenance, 3/6 - 13/6 and 12/8 - 25/9. The latter 6 week stint would suggest that a major check has been recently performed.

I further note that it was due to get a first class refit from one of the aircraft due to be withdrawn in the next few months, suggesting that NLL was scheduled to be operated for 2 - 3 years yet.

For BA, it may be a question of the cost of repairs to NLL vs the cost of a major check on another aircraft due to be withdrawn.

MPN11

23rd Dec 2013, 08:27

From a parallel universe ... I was on this flight and sat by a window seat on the wing ...

FlyerTalk Forums - View Single Post - Incident at JNB [BA 744 G-BNLL collides with building] (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/22012805-post32.html)

Capt Pit Bull

23rd Dec 2013, 08:28

BA shows four 747-400s parked in the desert - I don't know how much it would take to put one of those back into service, but probably a lot less than it would to fix this one

Bit of speed tape and she'll be good to go ;)

Mushroom_2

23rd Dec 2013, 08:32

It would seem that threat was overlooked in the "interactive" pre-flight briefing.:*

RoyHudd

23rd Dec 2013, 08:40

Strong old wings on the 747.

No-one was in the offices struck by the 74, for some reason. (Conspiracy theory?)

And as for Ms.H. Tolputt why was she travelling for Oxfam in Premium Economy? The extra few hundred pounds wasted on cushioning her ample posterior would have been better used helping supply clean water to an African village or shanty town. So much for corporate charities. Wasting well-meaning donations on Premium travel for employees....:=

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 08:57

There were people in the buildings !

Four injured as BA aircraft hits OR Tambo building | National | BDlive (http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/12/23/four-injured-as-ba-aircraft-hits-or-tambo-building)

FOUR airport staff were injured when a British Airways (BA) Boeing 747-400 hit a building at OR Tambo International Airport, in Kempton Park, shortly before taking off for London, Airports Company South Africa (Acsa) said on Monday.

None of the 180 passengers on board the aircraft, headed for Heathrow Airport, were injured, said Acsa spokeswoman Unathi Batyashe-Fillis.

The four ground-handling staff were in the building when it was hit by the aircraft on Sunday night, she said. Their injuries were minor.

The passengers affected were accommodated overnight at an airport hotel.

Ms Batyashe-Fillis said the building and one of the aircraft’s wings were damaged in the crash.

"The aircraft has since been moved to a remote location and operations have not been disrupted," she said, adding that the accident was being investigated by the South African Civil Aviation Authority.

LiveryMan

23rd Dec 2013, 08:59

BA shows four 747-400s parked in the desert - I don't know how much it would take to put one of those back into service, but probably a lot less than it would to fix this one :ugh:

I think it takes about 3 months to bring a plane back on line from the desert. At least, that's roughly how long it's taken BA to reactive several stored 744s in the last year. But, as far as I am aware, that time also included an installation of a refurbished interior.

I'd imagine it can be shortened to a top up of fluids, check flight and a quick clean in a pinch.

fireflybob

23rd Dec 2013, 09:01

I feel for the crew - as has already been said "there but for the grace of God".

One can imagine certain factors such as poor signage, lighting and/or charts.

Maybe "someone" head down reprogramming FMC for change in SID/departure?

Am enjoying my retirement doing some light aircraft these days after an airline career - I find myself constantly nagging people to slow down on the taxi speed!

I know airlines have max speeds which are monitored on OFDM etc but the key point is slower taxying speeds give you more thinking time and if any doubt then STOP.

Am sure the report on this one will be very interesting - holes in the swiss cheese methinks.

Tech_Log

23rd Dec 2013, 09:16

Standing up one of the Victorville aircraft isn't an easy task. Interiors are stripped and many components are removed / robbed to add to the material stock @ LHR or keep the in service fleet flying. Also the ones in storage are all (as far as I remember) due heavy checks soon.

For the poster who asked whether BA do a C or a D check, the answer is both, just depends what stage of maintenance check is next due.

Would certainly be a big repair. One of the older guys at work told me they rebuilt a 707 wing in the BOAC days out in HKG !

Safe flying
Tech_Log

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 09:18

This image of the damaged building is taken by a colleague whilst at the the CAT11 holding point, showing the perspective of the correct taxiway vs where the B747 ended up

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q77/s720x720/1528749_10152156623352244_721283981_n.jpg

Xulu

23rd Dec 2013, 09:18

The picture of the wing embedded is halfway through the building. How fast were they going down the wrong taxiway at night to chop through it like butter?

clipstone1

23rd Dec 2013, 09:27

at coming up 24 years old, this airframe is worth the value of its 4 RB211 engines, so in the order of $15m, alas LL is unlikely to leave JNB under her own power, more likely on the back of a number of trucks....

Insurers generally work on a repair value of 60-70% constituting a total loss, this repair will easily exceed that, BUT it may be cheaper for BA to pay the difference themselves. Unless one of the very recently withdrawn units can be returned to service depending upon how stripped out they are.

hifly787

23rd Dec 2013, 09:27

Xulu

You have finally asked the question, but everybody is busy grieving , wondering about spare aircraft, there but for the grace of God etc

ian16th

23rd Dec 2013, 09:29

BA have announced the introduction the A-380 on the Johannesburg route, early in the New Year

Will it be feasible to bring this forward rather than find a spare B-747?

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 09:34

http://s21.postimg.org/hgqxk2lev/image.jpg

fireflybob

23rd Dec 2013, 09:35

One thing that I have observed with OFDM is that max taxi speeds have unwittingly become targets rather than limits.

Before OFDM we would taxi at a speed which was (hopefully) appropriate for the situation. In certain instances this would be very slowly!

deefer dog

23rd Dec 2013, 09:46

Had this incident happened to Korean, Asiana, Vietnam or any number of third world carriers would so many of you be repeating the mantras "I feel for the crew" or "there for the grace of God" etc etc?

I most certainly DO feel for the crew here, but then I feel for ALL crews who are involved in mishaps, irrespective of for whom they work, their nationalities or whatever cultural differences the may have when compared to the western world.

The collective outpouring of feelings here, and the absence of similar condolences in respect of other incidents being discussed on this forum seem, at least to me, to demonstrate massive bias!

SimonS

23rd Dec 2013, 09:57

And as for Ms.H. Tolputt why was she travelling for Oxfam in Premium Economy? The extra few hundred pounds wasted on cushioning her ample posterior would have been better used helping supply clean water to an African village or shanty town. So much for corporate charities. Wasting well-meaning donations on Premium travel for employees...

Yawn.

Oxfam has already tweeted that she was travelling privately and they have an economy travel policy.

Why do events like this bring out all the halfwits.

Albert Driver

23rd Dec 2013, 10:01

Distraction from the primary task of taxying safely.

These days airline crews are given far, far too many tasks to do while taxying out to the runway.

It's become a macho thing: "Yes we can handle any task you give us while navigating to the end of the runway".

But be honest. Who hasn't looked up while taxying - and got a bit of a shock? Yes?

Crabman

23rd Dec 2013, 10:03

On the bright side, I'm sure that the crew was using impeccable ICAO standard RT phraseology.

fireflybob

23rd Dec 2013, 10:08

hec7or

23rd Dec 2013, 10:16

The workload on the Flightdeck is inversely proportional to the speed of the aircraft!

BikerMark

23rd Dec 2013, 10:18

"How fast were they going down the wrong taxiway at night to chop through it like butter?"

Probably no more than normal taxiing speed. It looks like a brick building. You can take those apart with nothing more than a 2" brick bolster and club hammer. Once you've breached a mortar course, bricks come down very easily.

A 747 is strong and would take some stopping...

Capetonian

23rd Dec 2013, 10:20

The first 388 service is BA057/25JAN.

It will then operate BA055 on WED FRI SUN from 12FEB - 07MAR.
From 09MAR daily except TUE.

Subject of course to change.

Georgeablelovehowindia

23rd Dec 2013, 10:23

I saw the impressive on-site repair that Boeing did on the Condor 767 which was flown through the mast array on top of the mountain at Margarita Island. After a test flight, the aircraft went back into service. That was eighteen or so years ago, but I presume the capability still exists.

MPN11

23rd Dec 2013, 10:28

Eyewitness report, FWIW ... I'll say it again we were travelling far too fast when we hit the building, not taxiing speed, if not for my seatbelt I would have been thrown out of my seat. I would have said we had started the procedure for taking off.

FlyerTalk Forums - View Single Post - Incident at JNB [BA 744 G-BNLL collides with building] (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/22014669-post132.html)

EastMids

23rd Dec 2013, 10:33

That is the best news I've heard and I hope this sorry saga accelerates the deployment of BA's next A-380 on this lucrative, yet poorly serviced, route.

I suspect that an A380 wing will also take a chunk out of the building if it is taxied down M :p

Bus Junkie

23rd Dec 2013, 10:35

Sorry, that is ridiculous. If there are too many tasks while taxying you stop them or set the parking brake. All of the crew pays attention to the here and now. Taxying in an unknown area with minimal lighting (if it was well known to the crew or well lit.....) all heads are up. No exceptions.

I'm sorry are you a private pilot?

Airlines usually provide the performance numbers through ACARS or they are computed on laptops/tablets prior to pushback. The only task would be getting a route clearance (if not obtained prior to push) and the checklists.

I'm sorry but Nigel really did bad for the rest of perfection on this one. Pull the FOs head out of .. and have him look out the window.

Distraction from the primary task of taxying safely.

These days airline crews are given far, far too many tasks to do while taxying out to the runway.

It's become a macho thing: "Yes we can handle any task you give us while navigating to the end of the runway".

But be honest. Who hasn't looked up while taxying - and got a bit of a shock? Yes?

sitigeltfel

23rd Dec 2013, 11:16

Someone claiming to have been on the flight has just posted this on the Daily Mail article comments....

This is a total fabrication of the truth. My wife and I were both sat in first and we're actually among the last off of the plane! Due to the damage the plane had sustained and the narrow taxiing area, the plane was disembarked via seat rows from the rear left exit. As such, passengers in economy left the plane first, followed by business and premium economy and finally first class. Nobody received preferential treated in the emergency situation!! I suspect that's Mrs Oxfam hoped to jump the queue for hotel room by complaining on twitter, whilst everyone else waited in line for their turn.Judge for yourself the veracity :hmm:

Heathrow Harry

23rd Dec 2013, 11:20

If it had been KAL or similar the place would be full of people blaming "cultural problems..."

boeingdriverx

23rd Dec 2013, 11:26

exactly,

nigel's are again showing their superior airmanship!

kungfu panda

23rd Dec 2013, 11:28

Would you believe there are cultural problems at BA? Is there a Hierarchal culture which prevents crew members from expressing concern?

Propellerhead

23rd Dec 2013, 11:29

Gosh, flyertalk is even more uninformed and speculative than here. Didn't think that was possible. Whilst I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears is there any chance we could keep the speculation and uninformed comments to a minimum? I'm sure the guys were doing their best last night and I'm sure lessons will be learned.

dclews

23rd Dec 2013, 11:29

Could ATC have warned them?

spider_man

23rd Dec 2013, 11:30

Bus Junkie - I understood BA have role reversal across all fleets. One of the FO's may have been taxiing the aircraft. Where was the third crew member at time of impact?

Albert Driver

23rd Dec 2013, 11:35

If there are too many tasks while taxying you stop them or set the parking brake. All of the crew pays attention to the here and now. Taxying in an unknown area with minimal lighting (if it was well known to the crew or well lit.....) all heads are up. No exceptions.

I'm sorry are you a private pilot?

See? There's denial about this issue.

And no, I'm not a private pilot. I logged many thousands of hours on this type of aircraft without hitting anything. But I am now old and wise enough to admit that unnecessary distractions lead to more close calls than there should have been.

kungfu panda

23rd Dec 2013, 11:47

boeingdriverx- I think most British Pilots would like to be a Nigel at one time or another- I never made it past the HR department. I think though the airmanship at BA probably reflects that of all British Pilots. The safety record of British pilots has been pretty good since the 80's.

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 12:06

@dclews
Could ATC have warned them?

Nope, the distance from the tower at night to this point is too great, and the B747 only deviated from the taxiway by a few metres before it hit the support equipment building, probably in the order of 5 to 10 secs from deviation from the taxiway to impact.

Willit Run

23rd Dec 2013, 12:16

Last I checked, 744 have windows which enables one to see outside.

When in doubt, just keep taxiing................:ugh:

Schnowzer

23rd Dec 2013, 12:40

The surprise to me is not the ground Nav error but the width of the taxi-way they went into. It only looks about 20m wide. As for the Asiana apologists, a bit different, clipping a building in the dark to missing an airport completely on a clear day!

hunterboy

23rd Dec 2013, 12:50

Best training in the world? You must be joking! (And I work for BA!)

ZOOKER

23rd Dec 2013, 13:06

I wonder how many other crews have, (or almost have), carried straight on at that junction? Apart from the warning on the chart, a switchable red stop bar wouldn't go amiss, especially if it's an area difficult to observe from the VCR.

Yellow Pen

23rd Dec 2013, 13:54

Given the fuel spill I'm assuming this could have been a lot worse with multiple casualties and hull loss or is that too simple?

Yes. Much too simple. One might even say grossly exaggerated.

roving

23rd Dec 2013, 14:47

BA has an impeccable history for safety.

I think the only incident in its entire history giving rise to finding of pilot error, was on 10 September 1976, when a Trident was in a mid air collision with a DC9 over Yugoslavia.

An Inquiry when attributing blame criticised both air crews for not keeping a look-out. Given that the air crew did not survive the accident, that conclusion however, was like the initial finding in respect of the Chinook over Scotland (which was subsequently reversed) an inference drawn from the occurrence of the accident.

Tu.114

23rd Dec 2013, 14:52

One thing that strikes me as odd is the relatively little yaw the aircraft was subjected to after the collision. It struck the building with its outermost wingtip at taxi speed and sliced into it substantially, but during all this it apparently stayed pretty much aligned with the taxiway instead of being swung around by the long lever arm and taking a right turn onto the grass.

This is most likely a testament towards the buildings relative structural weakness; it does seem to point to a low (-ish) taxi speed though.

Craneck

23rd Dec 2013, 15:17

Post #13:

“CAUTION / RESTRICTION
1. ACFT to exercise caution when taxiing on TWY B southbound to THR RWY 03L dueto Apron taxilane M extending from TWY B in a Southerly direction.”

Will it be asked why it was considered sufficientprecaution to avoid the risk of a plane straying from TWY-B to TWY-M, with a meretwo line caution, leaving just the pilot responsible to avoid the hazard?

Knowing the risk, of a plane straying, didn’t prevent themputting a building (and those in the building) in harms way (a deficient, orabsent, risk assessment for its construction?).

It does seem to have failed to stir themto install a warning system; a red light at the TWY-B/TWY-M diversion?

wannabe024

23rd Dec 2013, 16:11

Best training in the world? You must be joking! (And I work for BA!)

What's the basis for your comparison?

BA vs RAF? BA vs US Carriers? vs Asian Carriers? vs European Carriers? How widespread is your comparison sample?

Sygyzy

23rd Dec 2013, 16:27

Not withstanding the fact that there's never an excuse for a taxiing accident - going too fast, gone the wrong way, some one else parked in the wrong position, should've stopped if unsure and got a wingwalker etc etc etc -you have to remember that you really can't see the wing tips from the flight deck on the 747/744.

OK you can just see the tip if you reach and crane your neck but there's such parallax that it's no real use. Best option is to open the sun roof (escape hatch) and have a proper butchers from there. Even then the view isn't great. Or go along and find a cabin window that gives a view....At night those views would be pointless

Not that any of the above would've helped if these guys thought they were on the centre-line of an approved taxy-way. PIC carries the can though.

Many years ago a BA (or BOAC) 707 with a forward protruding HF aerial on the stbd wing collected a light pole (lamp post) taxiing via the wrong entrance into the BA terminal at JFK. The light array at the top fell onto the wing and punctured the fuel tank. A/c was ferried to LHR two days later. The crew wasted a day being interviewed by a selection of flight managers (10am sharp, uniforms will be worn), were 'retrained ' on the finer points of taxiing but nobody was fired.

i think similar will happen here. Gahd is perfect - the rest of us......:O

xray one

23rd Dec 2013, 16:32

BAs procedure is to get the Take Off figures, via ACARs, as they taxy. I have waited for short periods of time behind them whilst they receive and enter the numbers into box. I'm not saying this is a factor in this particular incident, but the pilots cannot be concentrating fully whilst either waiting or loading the numbers and taxying?

It's a big black hole down that end of the taxiway, and 3 pairs of eyes is always a must.

Sir George Cayley

23rd Dec 2013, 16:36

Always wondered what that was for.:confused:

Thanks for the "pointer".

wannabe024

23rd Dec 2013, 16:42

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 16:43

this is the view (B737) when on Taxiway - B , just before the slight left hand turn to proceed towards the Cat11 holding point, which the BA747 failed to do, the building is clearly vizible just above the right wing of the B737 ahead, the time taken to taxi this short distamnce to the impact point is probably only 5 to 10 secs, and so a moments distraction, right at the point of the slight left turn, and one can see how quickly things can go wrong

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/s720x720/534534_10150773747942959_2106637989_n.jpg

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 16:46

also

I am not sure of Taxiway - M has any lighting (should have), but the biggest give-away clue would be the drastic narrowing that occurs

Tankertrashnav

23rd Dec 2013, 16:49

Having been flamed before on this part of PPRuNe before I nervously offer this.

Many years ago I attended the court martial of an Argosy captain who had struck another aircraft while taxying at Khormaksar. In his defence it was stated and proved that the line on the taxiway had recently been repainted in the wrong position, several feet in the direction of the aircraft he struck. The stationary aircraft he struck was also incorrectly parked off its mark, several feet in the direction of the aircraft which struck it. In addition his nav (!) gave him a "clear starboard". I've done that myself hundreds of times when keeping lookout for my captain on Victors which had lousy visibility, and I have to confess to crossing my fingers on occasions!

In spite of this, the guy was found guilty of causing the accident and IIRC lost a year's seniority. I dont know if historical rules in the RAF have any relevance in the current world of civil aviation, but it seems to me that as well as perks, the position of captain indisputably carries responsibilities, and as Szygyzy has stated, ultimately he (or she) is the one who is going to carry the can.

xray one

23rd Dec 2013, 16:52

Wannabe024

A BA pilot a few years ago! I stand corrected. But they defo wait for some sort of figures because i've been delayed behind them whilst they've waited before Take Off. Their words not mine to ATC?

BOAC

23rd Dec 2013, 16:55

Nope. Not true. Where did you get your information from? what?

It isn't a big black hole OR

They definitely did NOT receive a change to the provisional loadsheet?

galaxy flyer

23rd Dec 2013, 16:58

Just curious, but what's a BA 737 doing in JNB? Lost?

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

23rd Dec 2013, 16:58

BA frequently used to do that at Heathrow "Just getting the numbers" as we told them to line up! Maybe they don't now (hopefully).

wannabe024

23rd Dec 2013, 17:00

what?

It isn't a big black hole OR

They definitely did NOT receive a change to the provisional loadsheet?

One button to press. Other than that it's no different to a change to performance calculations due to changing MET conditions. IMO something any crew would accomplish at the appropriate time; probably with the parking brake set?

BOAC

23rd Dec 2013, 17:01

galaxy - SA Partner airline Comair

JW411

23rd Dec 2013, 17:08

"You can't see the wingtips from the cockpit".

You can't see the wingtips from the cockpit of a DC-10 either but I was lucky enough not to scrape one far less destroying a building.

The point surely has to be that something distracted this crew, either internally or externally, otherwise this would not have happened.

In any case, how can you explain how a BA 744 captain managed to severely modify my PA-28 on a CAVOK day with both wingtips clearly in sight and no ACARS fitted?

I am fairly confident that a distraction was involved.

wannabe024

23rd Dec 2013, 17:24

I'm pretty sure that the common factor between the two scenarios isn't that it was a BA744 Captain? I'd hazard a guess that the common link between the two is that wingtips were struck.

You write that you were LUCKY enough not to scrape the wingtips of your DC-10, but do you consider this luck or skill on your part? I think that, in situations such as these, I'd always struggle to criticize from the position of a perfect flying record. Would you be prepared to share your biggest aviation faux pas which, on any other day, could have contributed to a hull loss, but on that day you were LUCKY?

If, by some minimal chance, you have none to share then I'd struggle to conclude more than you are a liar or you were unaware of the event unfolding. Any other conclusion would make you super-human.

In no way is this intended to be a personal criticism, it's just a question of perspective.

Akrapovic

23rd Dec 2013, 17:27

Just curious, but what's a BA 737 doing in JNB? Lost?

Comair....

Romeo E.T.

23rd Dec 2013, 17:40

ever since the 60's Jan Smuts Airport as it was known then, had that kink to the left after leaving the main apron, to get to the holding point for RNY03, so this crew would have operated into O R Tambo many times before, and travelled this path before many times before this..this can only be ascribed to a momentary loss of concentration and situational awareness on this day.

It is only human to err

on this old photo of Jan Smuts the taxiway -M as it is today is approx behind and slightly beyond the vertical fin of the SAA B747-244

http://s27.postimg.org/t42qi7wz7/G_BSST_CONC001.jpg

a330pilotcanada

23rd Dec 2013, 17:51

Romeo ET

How true been there as well!

Capetonian

23rd Dec 2013, 18:05

Just curious, but what's a BA 737 doing in JNB? Lost?
If you look closely you'll see it's a ZS registered a/c. Comair operate the BA franchise with domestic and regional services, about 10 rotations a day JNB-CPT, 5 DUR, HRE, VFA, WDH, PLZ and probably a few others I can't think of. They also operate Kulula services sometimes, which is a BA subsidiary too.

B-HKD

23rd Dec 2013, 18:19

NLR is due for withdrawal in Jan-14 and NLE in Feb-14

A d-check for either of these could very well be more cost effective than repairing NLL.

3 guys in the cockpit and nobody looking ahead?

Callsign Kilo

23rd Dec 2013, 19:09

Taxiing a large commercial aircraft around a major international airport at night can be a more challenging task than navigating the same aircraft between two airports stretched thousands of miles apart. It demands complete attention, careful prior briefing, tip top SA and teamwork. Taxiing is littered with threats. I feel sorry for the two Nigel's. Not pleasant.

Wisden Wonder

23rd Dec 2013, 19:13

What a team of total incompetents, the Control Tower told them to take one taxi-way, so they took another, a wrong one, a narrow one, and then didn't bother to look out of the windows, and maybe note a 'fairly large building on our Starboard Captain', lets just plod on, don't bother to get a wing tip man, a Follow Me wagon, you could not make this up, a total almighty c**k-up, and we still have people who are 'sorry for the crew'. They should be hung/drawn and quartered, they are not fit to occupy the Flight Deck of a 4 jet airliner, the most complicated position for all of those individuals is a sit-on motor mower. And do not continue with this BA safety bit, only months ago did an Airbus take-off with the engine cowlings open, no walk round, or couldn't see, the rest of us have managed to fly the Airbus without similar problems, but we do do walk rounds and don't mind getting our trousers slightly soiled by kneeling down.

Super VC-10

23rd Dec 2013, 19:29

OK, Wisden, we heard you the first time.

Serious as this incident is, may I remind everyone that the world's worst ever aviation accident was contributed to by a missed taxiway. At least nobody died. Aircraft are replaceable, people aren't.

SA242

23rd Dec 2013, 19:34

Wisden Wonder - congratulations on the most ignorant and arrogant post in the history of pprune.

beamender99

23rd Dec 2013, 19:35

Just curious, but what's a BA 737 doing in JNB? Lost?

If you look closely you'll see it's a ZS registered a/c. Comair operate the BA franchise with domestic and regional services, about 10 rotations a day.

The only place I have seen a 727 in BA colours.

TopBunk

23rd Dec 2013, 19:38

WW

Your response defies belief, oh perfect one:=

Everything for you is obviously so cut and dried, so black and white.

Q. Have you ever operated a large commercial jet aircraft on a night departure from darkest Afica which is not your home base? I suspect not.

Well I have, and from JNB as Captain on a B747-400. It is a trap waiting for the unwary/momentarily distracted, and I have always been highly aware of that taxiway intersection, and getting it wrong.

Now I am not absolving the FC of responsibility, but suggest that there will be some mitigating circumatances that any crew could have fallen foul of on the wrong day. To castigate them for that is premature. One thing is for sure, they, more than anyone will be replaying events in their minds and wondering what if/what did we do/why. They certainly didn't intend to do it and could do with some sympathy and consideration right now until the full circumstances are understood.

A just society will try to learn from the mistakes of the crew to try and put in place mechanisms that stop other crews making the same mistakes in future. I suspect that some of that will fall onto the airport operator with better signage.

One of the things that aviators hang their hat on is the adage that you must learn from other's mistakes as you don't have time to make them al your self.

galaxy flyer

23rd Dec 2013, 19:40

congratulations on the most ignorant and arrogant post in the history of PPRuNe

And after about 13 years hereabouts, that's saying something! :cool: We're talking OBE material here.

Got it, Comair. Haven't been to ZA in a few years.

Love_joy

23rd Dec 2013, 19:42

They should be hung/drawn and quartered, they are not fit to occupy the Flight Deck of a 4 jet airliner

Bit harsh Wisden, especially when you wind it in a bit and remember that the crew did not leave the house this morning and set out to bury the wing tip in a building that evening.

You can bet there is a big human factors element to this, be it distraction, fatigue, poor lighting, poor signage, workload management and so on...

As has been alluded to in this thread already, as flight crew we are expected to do more and more with a little less support. In my own op, single engine taxi is new to us and results in the FO being heads down for approx 2 mins during the taxi. The Captain is on his own during this time.

Is this safe? Yes, if managed correctly. Is it commercially important, yes, the bean counters love it.

This crew were also operating a night flight home, it's possible they only rested for 12-15 odd hours before this having operated a night flight.

The eventual report will no doubt open our eyes again to a fresh set of threats, and promptly be filed in the archives of history.

Still feel sorry for the crew through, bit rubbish to bend one.

G-F0RC3

23rd Dec 2013, 19:48

Tu.114

23rd Dec 2013, 20:00

Wisdom Wonder,

he who sits in seat 0a of an airliner and has never missed a taxiway has my true admiration. Most of us however were lucky enough not to have anything untoward stand in the way during this experience.

So no need for You to cast fire and brimstone on those who had no such luck.

Alexander de Meerkat

23rd Dec 2013, 20:05

Although it seems very likely that the crew will be blamed for this, and possibly correctly so, I am definitely in the 'there but for the grace of God go I' category here. There are very few professional pilots who have not made taxiing errors at one time or other, and I am no exception. Whenever I read anything like this I am sent back to the drawing board to think how could I avoid this happening to me. There are others out there who are baying for blood, but that is sadly the nature of the 'Monday morning quarterback' mentality that pervades large parts of our profession.

In any analysis of this incident, dreadful as it is, it would be worth noting that the Captain and FO (and I have no idea who they are) have probably an exemplary record in both line ops and training. They will have on numerous occasions narrowly avoided incidents, but on this occasion they simply got it wrong. No doubt there will be a wealth of people looking at this to work out why, as there should be, but I personally do have sympathy for the crew and would wish to learn from their errors rather than crow about how good I am compared to them.

Calmcavok

23rd Dec 2013, 20:07

Oh, Wisden Wonder, let he who casts the first stone....

I assume you haven't operated widebody aircraft out of deepest darkest at night, or day for that matter? As has been mentioned above, ground ops are the most challenging, threat laden part of the operation (except for Lagos ATC).

Cut these lads a little slack, amateurs they are not, and the results of their efforts splashed across the papers was certainly not their intention when they reported for duty. Next time, draw breath and review, before clicking 'Post Reply'. We may think more of you...

SimonS

23rd Dec 2013, 20:16

RetiredBA/BY

23rd Dec 2013, 20:37

I don't normally comment on this type of thread BUT I cannot believe some of the pure drivel perpetrated by some such as WW, breathtakingly stupid.

I have never taxi-ed anything bigger (in command) than a 767 but I do feel desperately sorry for that 747 crew. Why ? Because I maintain that so long as human beings are involved in flight operations there will be a scattering of incidents, some more serious than others, despite the best possible training and the highest standards of diligence. These guys were human.

I got away with it for almost 40 years and I thank my lucky stars that the finger of fate was never pointed at me.

So perhaps its time to stop speculating on the cause, and criticising the crew on a basis of ignorance, and just wait until those, AAIB, whose professional task it is to objectively determine the cause of this incident and have all the facts, make their report and we hear their recommendations as to how a repeat can be prevented.

Out Of Trim

23rd Dec 2013, 20:40

Wisden..

Not really Cricket, old chap! :ok:

Perhaps you will learn a little wisdom as, and if you grow up. :=

Shore Guy

23rd Dec 2013, 20:43

Calmcavok, you are certainly correct. I have long viewed surface operations, particularly at night in weather, as the most challenging and dangerous aspect of flight operations.

It is still staggering to me that with all the technological developments in aviation over the decades, most surface navigation is still done by a piece of paper (taxi chart), a compass, and some very rudimentary signage.

Maps showing own ship position are certainly a big help, but are limited in Part 25 aircraft to either a design into the avionics suite or a Class III EFB.
There are runway/taxiway advisement tools from Honeywell's RAAS system. And in the future (I have seen it/taxied with it in a 777 sim) taxi clearance delivered by CPDLC and shown on the moving map display. "Follow the magenta line".

And certainly ATC tools (particularly with ASDE-X) could be programmed to alert ATC personnel to not just possible conflicts or incursions, but inappropriate taxiway and/or runway use by aircraft type/class (Think Comair Lexington Ky.).

Unfortunately, it will take money and mandates to make this happen sooner than later.

BBK

23rd Dec 2013, 20:55

Shore Guy

From memory Joburg doesn't have centreline green taxy way lights - only blue edge lights. I'm very much in the "there but for the grace of God" camp. In fact I believe aircraft have previously taken the wrong route. It's worth considering it is poorly lit down there and the taxyway veers left ie by keeping straight you will end up in the maintenance area by default. The photo at post 109 makes it look easy but it isn't, IMHO, at night.

Aphrican

23rd Dec 2013, 21:07

Wisden, I am just a lowly PPL/IR in progress guy. I make a mistake every time I fly. Luckily, my mistakes so far have been relatively trivial (overshooting a frequency when tuning a radio, giving out a wrong call sign by transposing numbers, reading something back incorrectly in a clearance, taxiing a bit off the "centrelines", being a bit off the centreline when I land etc). I try to accumulate knowledge about mistakes and not make them again but there is unfortunately some repetition.

I fully expect to make a big mistake at least once in the pursuit of my hobby. I really hope that it doesn't kill me. If it does, it won't be because I am cavalier in my approach to flying.

Professional pilots are also human and they will also make mistakes. Their mistakes will be less frequent and less consequential than mine as they are professionals and I am only an amateur but they will still make them.

Finally, I think that BA, KAL, AF and SWA pilots (as well as everyone else) will make mistakes in roughly similar proportions per 100,000 hours flown no matter what equipment they fly. There is an amount of randomness to the consequences of those mistakes. The incident in Joburg might be a bit of "catch up" in the randomness of consequences.

fmgc

23rd Dec 2013, 21:32

For those of you who want to hang the pilots (WW I am thinking of you) I suggest that you try to understand what a just culture is:

https://www.justculture.org/what-is-just-culture/#.Uri5rXkte7w

Shaman

23rd Dec 2013, 21:44

I make a mistake every time I fly
Out of all the postings I have read on PPnuNe over the years, this is the most erudite comment I have read.

DaveReidUK

23rd Dec 2013, 21:50

They certainly didn't intend to do it

the results of their efforts splashed across the papers was certainly not their intention when they reported for duty

Thank you both for clarifying that burying the outer wing in a building was not an intentional act on the part of the crew.

Offchocks

23rd Dec 2013, 21:53

I don't fly for BA but have flown the same type out of JNB and will do so again in a week or so.
For the trolls and those who are quick to criticize, get a life as I'm guessing you have never flown or have never made a mistake.
For myself, without criticizing I can't understand how the crew ended up where they did, but I can wait for the investigations to be publicized and perhaps we will all learn a thing or two.
My sympathy to the crew involved.

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK

23rd Dec 2013, 21:54

WW,

You must be some kind of flying genius and certainly don't belong on a flight deck but in charge of worldwide aviation safety. I've taken wrong taxi-ways about 6 times in 15 years of commercial flying thankfully without incident. I would hazard a guess they were distracted and will hold their hands up and say they screwed up. On most wide-bodied aircraft it is difficult to see the wing tip and even if you can, it is harder to gauge if it will impact on something. It doesn't make them incompetent, it makes them human like the rest of us. The Skipper I would imagine has a great deal more experience than you and doesn't hold his position through luck or good fortune.

I suggest you engage your brain in future before writing such condemning passage.

Private jet

23rd Dec 2013, 21:56

The world we live in is far from perfect, errors of judgement will be made and its important to modify the way things are done as a result, thats called continuous improvement or progress. BUT, its important not to forget that ultimately the buck stops with the PIC, it is ultimately the captains responsibility, end of. There seems to be an undercurrent of "blame the circumstances not the crew", i'm sorry it doesnt work like that. Aviation safety is so high because of the fear of what will happen to the individual if he/she does something wrong. Its a superb motivator to maintain standards. Yes, there are circumstances and events beyond the crews control but has already been stated on here, there is NO excuse for a taxiing prang.

Lord Spandex Masher

23rd Dec 2013, 22:01

Hmmmm, taking the wrong road is one thing but whacking a building is another.

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK

23rd Dec 2013, 22:02

That of course Private Jet is perfectly true but airline safety is a constant evolution based on incidents and I have no doubt that steps will be taken at Joburg to ensure that this excursion is not repeated.

Basil

23rd Dec 2013, 22:29

I haven't been there for over 20 years but isn't there even a sign at the junction saying: << 03L ?

or a sign on M saying 'Geen Nigels' ;)

There but for the grace etc and, yes, I do appreciate that BA is not one of the more popular targets on Prune and would agree that, had it been one of those, they'd be getting even more stick.
Last flew that one in '91.

ExSp33db1rd

23rd Dec 2013, 22:36

Irrespective of how the fare was paid, did Mrs. Oxfam expect that she, a 'Premium' Economy pax.should disembark before 'ordinary' Economy pax? If so why is she complaining that F/C pax.were disembarked before her ? She would probably have had her head down on her 'phone anyway, holding people up. There was no immediate emergency, apparently, so what was her rush ?

I was once co-pilot on a 707 at JFK ( New York ) when the skipper took the wrong taxiway, no problem, he said, keep your feet on the floor and DON'T touch the brakes, and he promptly put two engines into reverse and did a three point turn ! Neat.

fireflybob

23rd Dec 2013, 22:48

Yes the Captain is responsible - well we all know that, don't we?

But if a football team loses 30 goals to nil, you wouldn't blame it all on the goalkeeper would you?

My question to ww, Private Jet and the like - are you perfect? No, I didn't think so. So who are you to judge imperfection?

Bearcat

23rd Dec 2013, 22:54

"Cut these lads a little slack, amateurs they are not, and the results of their efforts splashed across the papers was certainly not their intention when they reported for duty. Next time, draw breath and review, before clicking 'Post Reply'. We may think more of you..."

Grimacing tosh......building hit, 744 written off.....careers in flitters.....next please

gasbag1

23rd Dec 2013, 22:56

A wise old check Captain told me on my Left seat qualification, boy if you hit something, whether your on the taxi line or not, you still hit something and it's your fault. Sage words.

In the past a B747 in Cardiff being marshalled into parking position that carved thru the terminal but stopping short of an I-beam. First incident/accident in a 40 year career for that Captain and he stopped because the S/O opened that roof hatch, saw the wingtip in the Terminal and yelled STOP! Marshaller hadn't heard or considered wingtip gain.

I am sure the pilots are embarrassed, however we can all sympathize with how close we all have come to contacting something whilst moving metal on the ground and didn't know it, as we had missed.

ExSp33db1rd

23rd Dec 2013, 23:13

Wisden Wonder,

Stick to cricket.

Hands up ANYONE who hasn't, in their professional life, made some mistake at some time ? Of couse, some are more significant than others.

gasbag1 - we must have flown with the same Captain ! He also told me that regardless of how I flew the aircraft, as a Captain I must always be aware that any action I ever took could be fully justified At The Subsequent Court Of Inquiry ! Never a truer statement.

Long story that I have told and won't repeat now, concerning New York JFK. Briefly, we sank into a soft spot in the tarmac whilst moving up, and holding, in sequence for take-off. The eventual JFK report said that there was no hole in their Real Estate, and quote - " the pilot must have left the paved surface" ! We were on the centre line of a wide runway being used as a taxiway that night, and fortunately our ground crew could confirm that, JFK had also rushed out and filled in the hole !

neila83

23rd Dec 2013, 23:52

Ok, I'm actually getting a bit angry now with all this 'sincerest condolences to the crew' posts. From a safety point of view, I'm concerned that every time BA have an incident, everyone comes rushing to say 'mistakes happen', 'sympathies for the crew'. That worries me. This is a mistake that could kill someone, and could well have killed more than Asiana. Asiana won't fly again, are you saying this guy should just because he was lucky? Yes people make mistakes,but what if a mistake is a reflection of a personality trait that could cause a bigger problem later? That's why sometimes people should be fired for mistakes. Just as any normal person is if they do something that shows they might do something that kills people in the course of their job. This person would have killed people if the top floor had had people. Killedd. Stop being sociopaths and see that's actually pretty serious. If your family were there and this guy killed them, would you be so generous?

Some people have actually been injured, maybe that's where your condolences should lie. People probably a lot poorer and with less people to stand up for them than the cockpit crew - if their injuries were to stop them working for instance it could mean serious hardship. I doubt the pilots have to worry about that. As I said, if anyone had been on that top floor they'd be DEAD. I've seen people say this has been sensationalised, on another forum someone got upset because a paper described it as a 'crash' into a building. You know what, if a bus hits a bridge, it's a crash, if a train slowly bumps another, it's described as a crash. And if a bus driver comes off the road and hits a building, without another vehicle interfering, he gets sacked. I'm tired of pilots making excuses. Pilots get paid much more than bus or train drivers (BA ones at least) because they have RESPONSIBILITY. Yes BA pilots, you are well paid, and with that expected not to demolish buildings, if you don't like being held responsible for nearly killing people, and expect to be able to do it and keep your job, get another job. Yes, we need a positive safety culture, but that doesn't mean a pilot can get away with anything.

I wouldn't judge this case, but were it for the cowling incident, when all the old boys told us how hard it is to check the latches, how time pressure meant they couldn't fit in a proper walk around, and apparently it's beyond a BA pilot to bend down. I've been on several A320s since and seen the captain bend down and check the latches, and it took all of 1 second. Maybe they have stronger trousers.

Sorry, but after seeing the difference in the reaction after the Asiana crash, I find it upsetting, as a Brit born and bred, to see the obvious racism/looking after our own in the reactions.

porch monkey

23rd Dec 2013, 23:59

Ah, ye olde outrage bus has left the stop........:rolleyes:

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK

24th Dec 2013, 00:04

I very much doubt he will get away with it whether he is demoted/sacked or anything else and yes 4 people were injured and thankfully no-one was killed. That said, the merciless slating on here by some who are holding themselves up as faultless paragons of virtue, when even they don't know the facts here yet is galling.

Even the plates make no reference to wing tip clearance restrictions on that taxiway. If the Skipper thought he was on the correct taxiway he would be unlikely to think he was about to clout a building in any case.

The Ancient Geek

24th Dec 2013, 00:16

Maybe we should stop worrying about the pilot issues in this incident and take a closer look at the layout of FAJS and this taxiway in particular.

This junction has been an accident waiting to happen for many years, the hazard is known but nothing has been done to improve it. It is unsafe by design.

The correct route bends to the left, the wrong route is straight on. A simple reallignment could eliminate the straight on part and create a clear left/right choice.

c130jbloke

24th Dec 2013, 00:18

Neila83 grow up :ok:

BA are ace. They made a ( pretty big ! ) mistake, now go and sit on Wisden's keyboard and wait for the professionals to discover why they ( and probably others ) made those mistakes.

Oh and happy holidays !

neila83

24th Dec 2013, 00:22

So if I've got this right, pilots need more automation? Because that's what you seem to be asking for. Apparently they have too many tasks and might need to look down, so they need more lights and computers to guide them. Phew, good job the industry is going the right way, I had the impression you guys HATE automation dependency. Of course you don't! After the Asiana discussion I assumed all pilots outside Asia could do absolutely everything without a processor in sight. You see how ridiculous the automation discussion looks now when suddenly you're all begging for more help to taxi? It is you guys who need to grow up thank you. Ad yes, I have made my decision, as I'm sure many have after reading the attitude on here, I'm as likely to fly BA as I am Air France, sad as I am to say it. And that, is the real result of the attitude you guys show, and after this year, it's probably thousands thinking the same, so I would take it seriously.

But a crew that made a mistake landing are hung, drawn and quatered. And yes, it is racism, because everyone was very quick to make excuses for the fire crew, who's job it is to save people, and who should be trained to deal with complex emergencies.

Yes be human. But in some jobs you need to be more careful than others, deal with it. Some humans are more arrogant/complacent/carefree than others. If they reveal that as a pilot, do you think they should still be a pilot?

despegue

24th Dec 2013, 00:24

I can only imagine the comments if this were an Air France aircraft...

freespeed2

24th Dec 2013, 00:37

For those of you who want to hang the pilots (WW I am thinking of you) I suggest that you try to understand what a just culture is:

https://www.justculture.org/what-is-.../#.Uri5rXkte7w

However, it must be remembered that Just Culture is not a 'no blame' culture. In a truly just culture all employees must understand what is, and is not an acceptable standard in the conduct of their duties. Entering the wrong taxiway may be an 'honest' error, but failing to notice the narrowing taxiway or hitting the building...that has yet to be determined as being an error or negligent.
That determination wont be made on this forum or by the AAIB...Unfortunately it will be decided by the corporate suits in the company. What happens to the crew at that point will be a measure of the safety culture of BA.

Yes I can sympathise with the crew for taking the wrong route...I've done it myself more than once. But I will be interested to see in the Report how long it took from straying off route before they hit the building and what was going on in the cockpit during that time.

Alexander de Meerkat

24th Dec 2013, 00:57

This is where a balance is required. Poor old WW - widely drubbed by all and sundry, as maybe he should be. There is no doubt that the Captain will ultimately take responsibility here, as indeed he should, but we can and should all learn lessons. I will certainly be redoubling my efforts on night time taxi routes. I have personally become a big fan of the night lighting system used at Gatwick, and indeed at some other airports, whereby the specific taxi route is lit up for each aircraft. It is not foolproof and is only as good as the 'taxi-mation' supervisor operating the lights, but it does provide another layer of protection. Arguably the biggest single protection is an alert crew but, as has just been ably demonstrated, even the most experienced and capable crews are capable of errors on occasions. Layers of protection are the way to go and the individual night time taxi patterns are one more layer.

As an aside, have a look at this clip. It shows what can go wrong when an experienced crew mess up taxi patterns at Providence (USA) some years ago in Low Visibility Operations (around 150m RVR). Bear in mind this was an experienced United Airlines crew who have no doubt done so much better on countless occasions - sadly this was not their best moment, or indeed that of the Controller, and you can see how easily and quickly it all goes wrong.

FAA Animation Runway Incursion Providence, Rhode Island - YouTube

AlphaZuluRomeo

24th Dec 2013, 01:24

despegue, imagination not needed per se. Look after the thread about the 380 in NY last year (it tried to teach a commuter how to dance).

Anyway, anyone able to confirm Basil's memory? (if it's one, and not a guess?)
I haven't been there for over 20 years but isn't there even a sign at the junction saying: << 03L ?

porch monkey

24th Dec 2013, 02:45

Neil, your problem is exactly that you do "assume", ie, you don't "know". I trust you know what assuming means. Get off your high horse, dude. You're making yourself look stupid. Just like many others, you think that what a couple of posters here say, reflects the views of all professional pilots. :rolleyes:

White Knight

24th Dec 2013, 03:14

Something that didn't come up here on PPRUNE - and I'm surprised it didn't unless I missed it - was SQ taxiing a 380 onto a service road at JFK about three months ago. Supposed to be turning left I think into 'A' off 'G' out of Terminal 4. We had a long wait for our 380 to be towed to stand so we could get going; the delay was obviously due to the frenetic activity as a tug was found and said 380 pushed back into the taxiway, surrounded by JFK's finest flashing blue and red lights.

Later when I was taxiing out on the same route we were all trying to work out what the heck they (SQ crew) were thinking as the taxiway was well lit and the service road had absolutely no lighting! However - Bad day, distractions, confusion can all cause the 'Momentary Lapse of Reason' and I put my hand up to taxiing a 330 once onto the wrong taxiway, luckily with no harm!!! I've also had a ground controller in Nice try to send me down a restricted taxiway in a 340...

Be alert on the ground...

Oakape

24th Dec 2013, 03:17

Sorry, but after seeing the difference in the reaction after the Asiana crash, I find it upsetting, as a Brit born and bred, to see the obvious racism/looking after our own in the reactions.

Sorry, but if you don't know the difference between the Asiana accident & this incident, you aren't qualified to comment!

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK

24th Dec 2013, 03:25

White Knight

24th Dec 2013, 03:44

So if I've got this right, pilots need more automation?

Nope. Better lighting is what we want on taxiways! Have you ever worked as a pro pilot in Africa? I've flown all over the continent and am always on my guard for the unusual and unexpected there more than elsewhere.

But a crew that made a mistake landing are hung, drawn and quatered. And yes, it is racism

No it's not racism; but as much as you and your tree-hugging ilk will deny it, there ARE differences in attitude between races AND cultures so try and understand that... One 'eastern' feature is seniority and gradient (rank, age etc). And let's face it, they did crash a perfectly good aeroplane into the ground!

kungfu panda

24th Dec 2013, 03:45

This is a public Thread, everybody is qualified to politely comment here. I am sure their is a private BA thread where only professionally qualified people will comment.

I have flown with korean guys in China and I understand the cultural problems that people talk about. I don't believe they exist at BA. There maybe insufficient accountability though in BA??

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK

24th Dec 2013, 04:04

Hi Kungfu Panda,

Fine, it is a public forum and any Tom, Dick or Harry can get involved if he/she wishes to. PPRUNE actually stands for Professional Pilots Rumour Network and as such when I joined, I thought it would attract like-minded people not journalists and armchair keyboard warriors who know very little about what they are talking about. But the floodgates are open and anyone can have their say on here.

I have several friends flying in China in the left hand seat who have to do every take off and landing because the First Officer is not allowed to. God help the passengers if my mate keels over in flight and a hull is lost, not due to the First Officers skills, but because of the culture in the Far East.

This is not thread creep but comparing Korean/Asiana etc etc crashes with what has happened here is disingenuous and irrelevant as much as Neila would like to link the two.

If he doesn't like flying or the safety culture in aviation amongst UK pilots which I believe is amongst the best in the world, then let him go on a slow boat to wherever.

Perhaps Neila would like to focus his attention on the medical profession who earn far more, are not so rigorously tested and who seemingly cause far more deaths by malpractice.

Uncle Fred

24th Dec 2013, 04:52

This is a public Thread, everybody is qualified to politely comment here.

Not to be pedantic, but everyone might be entitled to comment as it is a public thread. That does not mean that everyone is qualified to comment.

The difference, whilst perhaps narrow, is still deep.

FerrypilotDK

24th Dec 2013, 05:02

WOW Alexander!!!! I never saw that clip before! Hats off to USAir........we will hold short until you get it figured out!!!!!

"He is not anywhere near the runway, cleared for take-off............."

I was like thinking......no no no........not that!

Better than a film.

garpal gumnut

24th Dec 2013, 06:42

Perhaps the mistake may have been due to a British culture in the cockpit.

I note an Asian culture was mooted in the Asiana thread at San Francisco. Sometimes we need to look laterally.

fmgc

24th Dec 2013, 07:09

However, it must be remembered that Just Culture is not a 'no blame' culture. In a truly just culture all employees must understand what is, and is not an acceptable standard in the conduct of their duties. Entering the wrong taxiway may be an 'honest' error, but failing to notice the narrowing taxiway or hitting the building...that has yet to be determined as being an error or negligent.
That determination wont be made on this forum or by the AAIB...Unfortunately it will be decided by the corporate suits in the company. What happens to the crew at that point will be a measure of the safety culture of BA.

You are correct, but what needs to be remembered is that there is a difference between capability and culpability. Was there reckless intention? What value to safety would punishment have? It SHOULD make a big difference in how the pilots are treated.

FAIR - Flowchart Analysis and Investigation Results - Baines Simmons market leading management tool for error determination and assessment (http://www.bainessimmons.com/fair.php)

Basil

24th Dec 2013, 08:08

Anyway, anyone able to confirm Basil's memory? (if it's one, and not a guess?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
I haven't been there for over 20 years but isn't there even a sign at the junction saying: << 03L ?
AZR, Perhaps I didn't construct that question very well.

It was neither a guess or memory. I have no idea or recollection of such a sign existing. I asked more recent visitors if there was one.

neila83

24th Dec 2013, 09:52

Wow, the BA guys are a lot better at dishing it out than taking it...

I compared the incidents not for their nature, but to point out the hypocrisy in the reactions. Unfortunately the very people I was hoping would take time to reflect, repeated exactly the point I was making - Asiana pilots definitely at fault, BA pilots- no way! Obviously nothing will persuade them they could ever be at faultg, which is what I think isn't a healthy attitude for cockpit crew.

If this crew had killed people, and it's remarkable they didn't, would you all be saying how sorry you feel for them? I don't remember many feeling sorry for the Asiana crew or accepting mitigating factors. Oh, and there are plenty of ways out of the UK that don't involve a slow boat or BA. You should try them, flying is actually a pleasant experience with them as well.

DOVES

24th Dec 2013, 09:54

Doesn't look like much of a centerline on that taxiway. Does BA have an Airport Moving Map installation?

Maybe a wider discussion on taxi way markings and how information is presented to pilots on aerodrome plates (and notams) will follow.

One can imagine certain factors such as poor signage, lighting and/or charts.
Maybe "someone" head down reprogramming FMC for change in SID/departure?

Distraction from the primary task of taxying safely.
These days airline crews are given far, far too many tasks to do while taxying out to the runway.
But be honest. Who hasn't looked up while taxying - and got a bit of a shock? Yes?

Sorry, that is ridiculous. If there are too many tasks while taxying you stop them or set the parking brake. All of the crew pays attention to the here and now. Taxying in an unknown area with minimal lighting (if it was well known to the crew or well lit.....) all heads are up. No exceptions.

And let me add: We all know that taxiing is a very delicate phase of flight, it happened also to me to make a mistake despite the briefing, the control signals, the comparison of the current heading with that of the airport chart.
But: is it possible that these things happen in the age of TOM TOM?
So Who’s at fault?

widebody69

24th Dec 2013, 10:03

Too true Oakape,

A guy who has admitted he didn't fancy a visual approach on a new type in the investigation and did too little too late to save the day vs a guy who has, with his co-pilot inadvertently continued down a taxiway he thought he was safe on.

Priceless.
Sorry but you're way to premature with this conclusion. Their could be a lot of similarities discovered in the investigation, we don't know at this stage. 'Not fancying a visual approach' is the start of the chain of events/errors that could also apply to this incident, primarily CRM and culture. Probably not, but could all the same.

For example were the crew actually looking out the windows of not? Did they think they were taxiing safely or did the miss the turn while looking down. One conclusion implicates airport standards, the other could mean it was not a factor. If they were looking down or distracted, they could have gone anywhere.

I think the point that's trying to be made is that while the BA crew and SFO fire crews are granted much benefit of the doubt, Asiana and AF380 crews were recipients of a lot less. While its natural, its disappointing.

hyatt_1_alpha

24th Dec 2013, 10:09

Hunterboy 23DEC at 09:50

So true my friend, so true!

TYPE CONVERSION ?
Papers available, questions known, just learn the answers. :mad:

SEP ?
Download the program from the BA intranet and learn the questions the night before and if you see a new question on the day of the exam then the trainer/adjudicator will whisper the answer into your ear (eg. "Mmmm, that one looks about right, don't you think.."). :mad:

ATQ ?
Do your best, but if you've been too busy playing away and let it slip all a bit too late, your mates are sure to have done more than you or some of the questions which you haven't yet answered or even have a copy of THE answersheet itself. :mad:

SIM ?
Need I say more...:yuk: ...maybe, just maybe!

The outcome of which is that 'Nigels' simply 'aint as good as they like to think they are, because, as you see from the long-standing cheating culture, they simply don't have to be!

Consequently, in 2013 alone (so far!) we've seen two major incidents that would not have occurred had they been doing their job correctly. Two incidents that reflect badly on a major airline and harm it's reputation with photos of bent or burning British Airways metal all over the media.

So, Nigel, Tarquinn, Quentin, Humphrey, Crispin, Percival or whichever you are, here's a little reminder for you as you once again get distracted by and all up tight over the **** roster you've been given and latest cut in pension and for those in management, most of them stinking dress-wearing Freemasons, who close ranks to protect you and themselves when stuff goes wrong (and are therefore as complicit in your failings) - YOU are at the sharp end, YOU make the dollars, YOU have responsibility. OWN it.

Invest in all of those nicey-nicey programs and look what just happened in J'burg, 'Beyond the Flightdeck'!

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK

24th Dec 2013, 10:12

I don't actually see where anyone has said the pilots were not at fault, despite the fact that you are not yet in possession of the AAIB findings nor anyone else.

Your anti-BA b******t is laughable Neila and trying to compare the Asiana incident with this, shows how little you actually know about aviation.

wilsr

24th Dec 2013, 10:14

Some of the "Perfect - I never make mistakes" posters seem to ignore the fact that in this case there was really only one error. The aircraft (for whatever reason) didn't turn left.

Had the crew been unaware that they were on the wrong taxiway they would certainly have stopped. But they obviously were not so aware. Although they might have spotted say a vehicle which was apparently too close, and stopped, most of us would have probably assumed that a building could not have been built within striking range and continued, given that we thought we were on the correct taxiway. At night.

The only amusing thing that comes out of a sad incident like this is seeing how many people come out of the woodwork to demonstrate how much better they are than the unfortunate crews involved.

No, I'm not making excuses by proxy: I'm just thankful that my many mistakes didn't have similar or worse outcomes.

The investigation will tell us what transpired, not these columns.

TWT

24th Dec 2013, 10:17

The AAIB are investigating an incident which happened in JNB ?

Bealzebub

24th Dec 2013, 10:19

This is an unfortunate taxiing accident. Lessons will be learned. It has absolutely nothing to do with mid-air collisions over Zagreb 38 years ago, nor landing accidents in San Francisco this year. Nobody was killed. Nobody was injured. An aircraft suffered serious damage and so did a building. Insurance will take care of both of those losses. There was no intent to cause this event.

The problem of runway incursions, communication failures, and airport signage, is a global one. It is a problem that is highlighted as a primary cause of accidents, potential accidents, and incidents. There will be very, very few professional pilots with any significant degree of experience who haven't found themselves involved in this type of problem on occasion. Given the global nature of the problem, cultural considerations and authority gradients are unlikely to play any significant role as a causal part of the problem.

The ill informed and the breathlessly excited will no doubt think otherwise, but there will be few professional pilots here who haven't been in similar circumstances that simply had a luckier outcome. Discussion arising as a result of this accident is a good thing at all levels, but the hijacking of a thread by all the usual suspects to promote the popular set of prejudices, ill informed opinion, and vacuous comment, really adds nothing other than post count.

captplaystation

24th Dec 2013, 10:20

Back in the days (late 80's/early 90's) when I was flying for the main domestic competitor (BM) a bit of "Nigel Baiting" was inevitable. Their attitude on Heathrow Ground made it impossible not too. Most of these airs of "false superiority" seem to have evaporated these last 20 years, and whilst one still hears the old "Atlantic Baron", or "Cynthia Crutchstrap"esque jolly-hockeysticks public school accent on the airwaves, I think for the most part the Niges come across as being pretty much like the rest of us. . . .working too hard & being treated with contempt by their middle managers.

Given how outrageously the management (some of it not even pilot management) behaved towards the last crew to be involved in such a public incident (thinking the LHR 777 not the open cowling Bus jobbie) one can only hope that their treatment of the crew is more considered & consistent across the whole enquiry than they managed back then . . .when the FD crew went from being publicy feted heroes to having their abilities questioned in the fluttering of a stewards eyelash. A wrong that fortunately was eventually put right, but not without some personal cost to the individuals affected.

Bit of a screw-up this one . . . . but, as many have stated, "there but for the grace of God". . . . . . Hoping for a fair outcome that involves learning taking precedence over castigation (just like pprune then :hmm: :rolleyes: )

The Ancient Geek

24th Dec 2013, 10:21

Yes, the Nigel screwed up but that is not the real issue.

The intersection concerned is a known hazard which should have been changed at least 20 years ago but nobody bothered.

The layout of the intersection was a trap waiting for another (yes, several others have done it) unwary pilot to get suckered into on a dark night.

It could have been any of us, it had to happen again eventually and this time it caught a widebody with wings long enough to hit the building.

TWT

24th Dec 2013, 10:24

Nobody was injured

According to the press release from the SACAA,4 people were injured by falling debris in that building.

Bealzebub

24th Dec 2013, 10:30

Thank you for the update. Hopefully none of them are serious. The rest of the answer stands.

Offchocks

24th Dec 2013, 10:30

TWT The AAIB are investigating an incident which happened in JNB ?

Not unusual for the country from where the aircraft is registered to also carry out it's own investigation. Sometimes it participates in the investigation with the local aviation administrator.

kungfu panda

24th Dec 2013, 10:33

This incident is not the same as the Asiana in any sense with regard to "airmanship". I'm a little vague here but I read somewhere that an NTSB or Boeing official made a statement that when designing an aircraft we assume that pilots learn to monitor speed during an approach in an early stage of their training. Pilots are not taught during an early stage of their training to take the bend to the left when the taxiway straight and the left bend are both equally lighted.

I am interested to know how fast he was taxiing though, by the distance he travelled through that building before he stopped, it seems to me he must have been taxiing fairly fast i.e. toward the straight line limit of the 747 (30 kts), I would have thought at night with cabin crew preparing for the departure maybe a slower speed would have been more appropriate. Just speculation, I know..

TWT

24th Dec 2013, 10:34

Thanks Offchocks,Bealzebub.

BBK

24th Dec 2013, 10:44

Bealzebub, Ancient Geek, Captplaystation

Well said! This thread is following a familiar track. Those of us who do the job have almost certainly erred and been lucky to get away with it with nothing more than a slap on the wrist from ATC. A lot of us will want to find out WHAT happened before passing judgement.

Those that don't fly jump to conclusions!

I would imagine most BA pilots, like their fellow professionals, in other companies, are loathe to condemn a crew without seeing the final report. We all make mistakes and there is, I believe, a broad consensus that what is most important is to LEARN from these errors. 'Just culture' does not mean absolving crews from mistakes if it can be shown that they were reckless or negligent. If you want an open reporting system where pilots feel supported to admit their errors then you need the just culture. The alternative system did not work and their were plenty of smoking holes in the ground to prove it.

Last time I went to Joburg I was warned specifically by my colleague not to continue into the maintenance area by mistake. However, I could see, or not(!) how it would be easy through a moment's inattention/distraction to do so. Off my soapbox, Merry Christmas everyone.

40&80

24th Dec 2013, 10:46

Gulf Air L1011 crews were in 1976 the second airline in the world ( trained by BA ) in low vis take offs and landings plus ground manoeuvring.All the above procedures utilised the onboard ground run monitor and ground speed indicator.Low vis chart distances were inserted into the ground run monitor and a 3 knot ground speed and ground radar instructions were to be the way to go to and from the runway in low vis.
Sadly it not work that well because the ground radar was not then up to the guidance job in the turns.
When landing in low vis at LHR I was guided in by an Indian gentleman standing in the back of a Mini truck shinning a powerful beam of light on the nose cone...
this system worked and could be immediately introduced at airports where lighting and guidance are inadequate....I recommend my Indian gentleman and his light be considered by this African airports management team who will probably state that safety is their first priority but not really mean it.

BN2A

24th Dec 2013, 10:47

Would suggest that the taxi speed was less than 30 kts, as to be going at that speed he would have gone further through the building before realising, reacting, and bringing the aircraft to a halt...

Also, I would suggest that the PF thought he was in fact on the correct taxiway as he was absolutely on the centreline, so was presumably looking out of the window... Hence a reasonable assumption that the building was in fact not an obstacle worthy of consideration.

Foul up, yes... And no doubt the skip will carry the can. But, we need to take the other factors into consideration. Has learning taken place?? We can only hope so.

ecam dongso

24th Dec 2013, 10:47

Do you BA guys taxi out with one or more engine shut down to save fuel?
Like EZY? just curious?

The Old Fat One

24th Dec 2013, 10:49

Bealzebub nice post as always.

Point of Interest for many who have posted on this thread.

When you see a full on troll post (you all know to which I am referring) why do you respond? I'm not talking here of merely argumentative, banter driven, or just a bit ill-informed posts, but posts that are so obviously valueless LOL vomited bilge.

Trolls post like this to get a reaction. Many are walts; many are sad, lifeless losers.

Do us all a favour - ignore them. Eventually they will get the message and go elsewhere.

28L

24th Dec 2013, 11:07

Why the anger at BA pilots supporting one of their colleagues? Isn't that what colleagues are supposed to do?
I feel huge sympathy for the guys, and only wish them the best - and (for the avoidance of doubt) also feel sympathy for those who were injured.

matzpenetration

24th Dec 2013, 13:11

Ladies and Gents. Wisden Wonder is only trying to be inflammatory and spark a reaction in between trying to break the password for the porn filter that his parents had to activate. Best not to respond or pass judgment on him as it will only have him reaching for the Kleenex Ultra Balm again.

As wiser heads have already said, there for the grace of God etc....... There are those of us who have taxied the wrong way and those that will. Lets wait for the AAIB report before castigating any individual. As for a negative bias towards non European operators, like most pilots I believe there are only a small minority who actively spout this nonsense as it is the culture within an Airline that influences Flight Safety far more than the nationality of its pilots.

comwat

24th Dec 2013, 13:17

If anything, I hope this thread has at least created some awareness of the hazards involved taxiing around this airport to help prevent another incident (with possible worse consequences). There is a hell of a lot of drivel and nonsense written in these ten pages but I'm not sure how we get from a 747 striking a building to accusing each other of being racist.

Fact is, a mistake has been made here. It is somebodies fault, we cant shy away from it and no point being sensitive about it. We learn from mistakes, that's how we develop and improve.

Personally I feel for the crew, same as I felt for the Asiana crew.

Willit Run

24th Dec 2013, 13:34

Bealzebub;

"There was no intent to cause this event."

There was no intent on Asiana's part either.
There were people injured, just not on the plane. Do not the folks in the building count???

Heinz57

24th Dec 2013, 13:50

Hyatt1alpha

The outcome of which is that 'Nigels' simply 'aint as good as they like to think they are, because, as you see from the long-standing cheating culture, they simply don't have to be!

So, Nigel, Tarquinn, Quentin, Humphrey, Crispin, Percival.....

Ouch, someone still a little raw at not getting through the BA selection..? Some posters should be embarrassed by some of the crap they post on here. :ugh:

And no, I don't fly for BA.

His dudeness

24th Dec 2013, 13:55

A question to the 'nigels'... what maps do you use? We use Jeppesen and when it comes to the accuracy, general quality and readability of the 10-9s, then I dislike Jepp charts I have to say.

My little airplane sports a map display and sometimes it shows you off the taxiway your supposed to be on simply because the maps are wrong. Same issue - seldom but still - with the Honeywell RAAS - I regret having it installed. If you can´t trust the stuff...

wiggy

24th Dec 2013, 14:06

Ouch, someone still a little raw at not getting through the BA selection..?

Hi Heinz,
Given the information contained in the post you are referring to, and the apparent anger, I have my suspicions it may have come from someone who actually did pass BA selection, but not as flight crew....he/she is probably best ignored.

That said I do think the events this year should be a wake up call to some at BA (not just management) who seem to think that safety is a given, that the ability to operate the aircraft now comes secondary to being customer focused and that the answer to each and every problem is to produce an app for the iPad.

Lord Spandex Masher

24th Dec 2013, 14:14

Arik

24th Dec 2013, 14:25

It's like a slanging match in a primary school here ... & totally unprofessional!!!

I will refrain from posting a question regarding all this, in case it flares up again

Merry Christmas, (try to see the glass half full some of you please!)

Mr Angry from Purley

24th Dec 2013, 14:47

So, Nigel, Tarquinn, Quentin, Humphrey, Crispin, Percival or whichever you are

You missed Rupert you :mad:

That said I do think the events this year should be a wake up call to some at BA (not just management) who seem to think that safety is a given, that the ability to operate the aircraft now comes secondary to being customer focused and that the answer to each and every problem is to produce an app for the iPad.

Makes a valid point, safety is no given. If BA Management have to buck their idea's up where will they start - Pilots and commuting?

Merry Xmas

TopBunk

24th Dec 2013, 14:52

Wiggy

Maybe it will trigger management to spend some money to provide a GPS position feed from the a/c to the iPad's on the flight deck to link into the aerodrome charts for those fleets (inc B744) that don't have a buillt in EFB?

Nah, thought not!

one of the 78 2009 VR's and ex C744

TopBunk

24th Dec 2013, 14:55

Mr AfP

Can't see that commuting can in any way form a part of the JNB incident, bearing in mind that they will have been in JNB at least 48 hrs if they operated in.

Tech_Log

24th Dec 2013, 16:03

Aviation is an industry that learns from its mistakes.
Some of these are major catastrophes, others much more minor events. They do however have a golden opportunity to prevent such things happening again.
The recurring theme is that at some point, something will go wrong to somebody, and this affects us all however experienced or book smart.

I'm not a big fan of apportioning blame onto the crew for the sake of finding a head to put on a plate, nor do I find it very sporting 'Nigel' bashing, enjoying seeing BA knocked down a peg with an air of moral superiority.

Safety affects us all, doesn't matter what the paint job is on the fuselage.
Better lighting, and forms of assistance aren't an admission of defeat, it's an acceptance that we're human and any help we can get is good. Many of us have made mistakes, not by some element of unconscientious ineptitude, but by the fact we get distracted, confused and occasionally muddled up.

It could have been much worse, could have just missed the building and was just another close call, but that was circumstance.
A pilot getting blamed and sacked is great for those wanting blood, but it doesn't stop a repeat incident and next time could be the time the building is full and people die.
Moral superiority doesn't count for much then.

Halfnut

24th Dec 2013, 16:48

Some mom in her Kia minivan has better ground navigation then us in $50 million plus jets.

The write off with BA at Johannesburg would have put a bunch of TSO'ed ground GPS mapping units in a bunch of jets. A PA / KLM at Tenerife or NWA at DTW only exasperates the blood on the FAA's hands.

Lower then 30 knots with the plane not commanded in the TOGA mode should have the Jepp 10/9 page on both NAV displays.

It's cheaper to program aircraft / airport specific into the data base vs. heads down with 1900 technology paper taxi diagrams or iPads.

BOAC

24th Dec 2013, 17:26

but it doesn't stop a repeat incident - it probably does, in fact. IF this incident was due to a breakdown in preparation, allowing a significant distraction, lack of awareness of the view out of the window, excessive speed - or a few more 'correctable' errors (PLEASE NB the 'IF') then a 'heavy' disciplinary would certainly cause many to review their own performances and thus go a long way to preventing a repeat.

Incidentally, I believe the 'no blame' culture was originally developed to encourage admission of error which might have otherwise been 'missed'. This incident is a little different - difficult to 'miss'.

somerset westy

24th Dec 2013, 17:34

Just curious,
Why was a BA 747 towed out for takeoff at Johannesburg RW03L this evening?

cessnapete

24th Dec 2013, 18:07

Six or seven years ago I flew an HS125 with JeppView with the Collins ProLine 21 cockpit display. This showed GPS derived aircraft position on the PFD superimposed on the Jepp Area, Let Down, and Taxi Charts. The NHP had this displayed on his MFD as appropriate.

I even have this facility on a a 4 seat Cessna with the same information displayed on the Garmin screen.

The B744 has a Honeywell glass cockpit, may not be JeppView compatible. If BA invested in this system it would probably eliminate taxiing errors such as this as your present position is shown in real time.
Such investment would have saved a whole lot of money in this incident.

My IPad also has this facility using SkyDemon at about 150 quid a year!!

TopBunk

24th Dec 2013, 18:08

SW

And your proof is where?

Personally I can't believe it. I have taxied out to 03L many times for BA on the B744, as a pilot, and I know the junction in question, and whilst I can believe that the situation is 'raw', I can't believe that they towed an aircraft to the the threshold.

I could believe that as an interim procedure that they have introduced a 'follow me' car, but no more than that pending any recommendations.

I'm sorry but I don't believe you!

somerset westy

24th Dec 2013, 18:16

Check it out.
I believe my source!

Romeo E.T.

24th Dec 2013, 18:43

view from a B737 cockpit earlier today, turn left, don't go straight, building on the right where the vehicles are congregated.
http://s21.postimg.org/6end69zw7/image_Dan_Per.jpg

kungfu panda

24th Dec 2013, 18:50

That puts the mistake into perspective.

Oakape

24th Dec 2013, 18:53

Interesting photo. Bit short on taxiway signs, aren't they?

JNB was always a bit of a nightmare to taxi around. Lots of traps for the unwary or distracted!

TopBunk

24th Dec 2013, 19:03

SW Check it out.
I believe my source!

Check what out? What source?

I fear you are yet another troll:ugh:

Zulualpha

24th Dec 2013, 19:23

If one looks at the photo posted one will see that there are lights on the taxi line that take you around the corner. It may have been that the lights were off but it's not at all usual for them to be off at night time. I've taxied out there loads of times but I can't recall if taxiway M is light at night time. As far as I know M is only used by aircraft under tow.

I do know though that it is common to be behind the BA aircraft in Joburg while they are apparently waiting for the figures to be sent to the aircraft. This reason is given to the ATC by the BA crew when being asked if they are ready for take-off.

Perhaps BA crew could say if it's standard for the figures to be sent out to the aircraft while the aircraft is on the move or if SOPS/NOPS require this to be done before start? Surely if it is standard for the figures to be sent after start the airline must have some policy as to how the figures must be inserted into the FMS or accepted by the crew? If it is SOPS/NOPS airline management should surely shoulder some responsibility for this.

The Ancient Geek

24th Dec 2013, 19:27

Interesting photo. Bit short on taxiway signs, aren't they?

JNB was always a bit of a nightmare to taxi around. Lots of traps for the unwary or distracted!

Indeed.

Now consider that one on a dark night.
All they need is to dogleg the narrow taxiway 20 yards to the left and all would be well, A few signs would help though.

M.Mouse

24th Dec 2013, 19:34

This thread really is quite unblievable for the amount of unadulterated crap being spouted.

In no particular order we have people expressing sympathy with the crew but at the same time being castigated as if they had a lack of sympathy with the Korean crew of the recent SFO crash! While the cultural issues are well known the effectiveness of the conversion training has to be questioned when the P/UT fundamentally did not understand the autothrust system. The two pilots have to live with the awful knowledge that they killed many people in the crash. I cannot begin to understand the culture but I would not be human if I did not have sympathy with the crew of that one.

In the JNB incident the picture above dramatically illustrates to the pious and the mischievous how easily it can be to miss the turn towards 03L and that is in daylight! Many airfields are like black holes at night and with poor signing and lighting making an error is all too easy to make.

In recent years far more emphasis has been placed on both pilots looking out of the windows with minimal other tasks being dealt with once on the move but is inevitable that at times only one pilot will be looking out if only for a brief period.

The captain will no doubt pay dearly for something for which he carried the ultimate responsibility whether that be in demotion, dismissal or just having to live with the knowledge of being responsible for the accident.

I know from personal experience that the standards are high in BA as well as many other airlines but show me any long established international carrier which hasn't had incidents or accidents which shouldn't have occurred in a perfect world.

kungfu panda

24th Dec 2013, 19:55

Just looking at that picture, if there were centerline lights going in both directions it was obviously a fcuk up just waiting to happen... Wait for the report but for me it appears to be a bad system rather than a bad crew.

Oakape

24th Dec 2013, 20:15

Taxing down 'B' for runway 19 at Brisbane is a very similar situation. However, Brisbane is very well signed. Even so, there has been the occasional incident where a wide body has gone straight ahead instead of making the right turn. Night is much worse & you have to pay attention, even if you know the airport well. It obviously wouldn't take much at JNB to end up in the wrong place, like this crew did.

And, as for those who feel that the crew should have known that the building was too close - you either haven't had to taxy in a very confined area or have never taxied a jet airliner. When taxing in a confined space it always looks close - often too damn close! You just have to make sure you are on the line &, if other aircraft are nearby, make sure they are on their line as well. Then you just have to trust that the airport has done the right thing & painted the lines in the correct place & if you are being marshalled, that they know what they are doing. Even that can go wrong. I came within a metre of collecting a 747 wingtip one night in India when under the marshaller's guidance. It was only my instinct that led me to ignore his instructions & turn early.

You can't just get out & have a look & in this business, you often just have to trust that others have done their job correctly.

Aluminium shuffler

24th Dec 2013, 20:16

The photo of the junction paint a thousand words - this is one of those instances where in the dark, with the lack of sign posting and using just the aircraft lighting, the mistake is going to happen at some point. There are plenty of airports with awful layouts, marking and signs, and they exist in north west European capital airports too - how many major EU airports have no centreline lighting on the apron, so when it rains at night the lines disappear under the sheen of reflected orange sodium lights? Luton has only just got marshallers for god's sake, all parking having been achieved by picking a piece of terminal structure or ground equipment to aim at as the yellow line disappears under the nose and checking for obstructions yourself.

As for the industry being one that learns from its mistakes, I have yet to see any evidence of this oft cited remark after 20 years working in it. Fatigue? Language barriers? Alcohol in airports and on board? The weight of carry on baggage? Assumed weights for load sheets? Security issues? The frank reality is that the industry is run by accountants who only spend money on what will gain more money back. Safety issues can go swing - EASA has shown clearly on the FTL issue that it is more interested in commercial than safety issues, so even the regulators won't push the hard learned lessons to be adopted. Anyone who works in aviation knows that the industry never learns the lessons...

exeng

24th Dec 2013, 20:18

Taxied to 03L many times - in daylight! I can quite understand how this incident could occur - particularly at night.

Don't forget that this may have been a crew who have never visited JNB before (apart from training) and so may be quite unfamiliar with the nuances of this place.

Have I ever made errors in taxing? Yes but I have managed to taxy away with nothing more than a red face, admonishment from ATC and a tittering F/O.

Holes in cheese is what this is about - and the photo above gives an indication as to a large hole which the airport authority chose to ignore. It would be interesting to know if this was the first such occurrence of an aircraft 'continuing' along the taxiway to runway 03L for departure.. I'd bet my next salary it was not the first.

What an awful Christmas for all those involved.

Regards
Exeng

kaikohe76

24th Dec 2013, 21:02

There have been many posts re this particular incident & likely to be many more. Let's all put our hand on our hearts & swear, `we have never been subject to the potential, for just this type of incident`. Certainly it would appear, that more & better signage & lighting (centre line etc), would have helped. We all learn from our own & others mistakes, none of us is God, so let's continue to be carefull out there.
Regards to all.

J.O.

24th Dec 2013, 21:07

Cultures differ in different parts of the world. That is a given and to ignore it is to do a disservice to safety. I have no doubt that if the BA FO had spoke up about the taxi route or the proximity of that building, the captain would have stopped and confirmed their position. Sadly, in some other parts of the world, the FO wouldn't even dare speak up in such a situation.

As for the specifics, put the photo shown above in the context of an environment which is often darker than the inside of a cow and I can see exactly how this incident happened.

I.R.PIRATE

24th Dec 2013, 21:07

Exeng - not the first.

M.Mouse

24th Dec 2013, 21:16

I have no doubt that if the BA FO had spoke up about the taxi route or the proximity of that building, the captain would have stopped and confirmed their position.

You assume it was the captain taxiing.

Ulster

24th Dec 2013, 21:16

I have no doubt that if the BA FO had spoke up about the taxi route or the proximity of that building, the captain would have stopped and confirmed their position

Would it be right to assume (I'm not a commercial pilot) that the FO would be the more likely of the two to spot the conflict, since he is physically on the right side ? Or is lookout generally delegated to one or the other, irrespective of side ?

misd-agin

24th Dec 2013, 21:18

The photo also shows -

Taxi edge lights vs. no edge lights.
Pavement width reduction by 2/3's.
Side markings vs. no markings.
Taxiway centerline lights at the turn.

nitpicker330

24th Dec 2013, 21:19

Yep totally agree, we could all have made a similar error on a dark night. Sometimes :mad: happens, luckily no one died.

The RPLL intl apron area springs to my mind when I think of places where the local signs/apron lines are a error waiting to happen.

It may be the fault of the crew however the FAJS Airport have to accept responsibility as well.

Ulster

24th Dec 2013, 21:32

Taxiway centerline lights at the turn

Just one more question from a non-expert : is it known if those lights were actually switched ON at the time of this incident ? :confused:

PukinDog

24th Dec 2013, 22:00

Obviously a breakdown of SA inside the cockpit while the aircraft was moving.

I will be interested to find out whether the crew's pre-start briefing included the expected taxi route to the runway in use and whether they discussed any changes to what was previously expected and briefed, if any.

Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world, and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the jog to the left, the expectation to look for the red hold-short sign for the runway (as clearly seen in the picture) and the fact that there's a taxiway leading straight ahead you don't want to take. The whole purpose of briefing beforehand it is to figure out the traps before you begin taxiing and arrive there because there are cockpit chore and duty distractions in between. If you expect there to be no traps or have them all magically erased you're in the wrong business.

All the technology and niceties in the world aren't going to make a difference if the fundamentals aren't there, and SA is lost. Moving a/c displays aren't always accurate and all the hotspot notes on a plate aren't going to help if you don't know you're there in the first place.

Moaning about less-than-perfect airport lighting/facilities does nothing to prevent something like this from recurring. A thorough briefing of taxi route (expected and cleared-for), recognizing threats beforehand, and maintaining vigilance will and is the biggest tool in the shed to plug up what could be the first big hole in the cheese.

It's also incumbent upon us to do our professional best to not be guilty of a runway incursion, and without doing all of the above (even at the most nicely laid-out and lighted/signed) airport, you aren't. Both pilots knowing where they are on the ground and how we've been cleared is also the first red flag for us if we subsequently receive a bogus clearance from ATC that may put us or others at risk.

Gigajoules

24th Dec 2013, 22:42

The picture posted by Romeo ET shows the view from the camera's perspective. Humans are blessed with a much wider field of view than a camera. What cues would be available to the pilot to the left of the taxiway? Would the runway threshold not be visible already from just before the turn?

twochai

24th Dec 2013, 22:57

Nothing new in the world! Airbus Industrie managed to bury the wingtip of an A-380 demo aircraft into the corner of FSI's simulator center building at Le Bourget not so long ago, in front of thousands attending Paris Air Show!

RatherBeFlying

24th Dec 2013, 23:08

The daylight picture goes part way to understanding the situation.

Could somebody take a nighttime snap -- please?

M.Mouse

24th Dec 2013, 23:22

Not to make excuses but anybody who has taxied a B747 in the dark on a relatively poorly lit airfield with it not possible to see your wingtips will have an appreciation of what is being discussed that is only possible to gain from actually experiencing it.

I did a similar thing as a first officer in Bogota, the captain had been momentarily distracted and I followed a taxiway not approved for the B747. Fortunately it was only short and although narrow there were no obstructions. Funny enough that was at night too! The only thing to be damaged was my pride but it did teach me a valuable lesson about the hazards of taxiing.

wilsr

24th Dec 2013, 23:38

Pukindog:

>>Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world, and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the jog to the left, the expectation to look for the red hold-short sign for the runway (as clearly seen in the picture) and the fact that there's a taxiway leading straight ahead you don't want to take. The whole purpose of briefing beforehand it is to figure out the traps before you begin taxiing and arrive there because there are cockpit chore and duty distractions in between. If you expect there to be no traps or have them all magically erased you're in the wrong business.<<

Correct - but your post is in response to a previous incident and is idealistic.

Say the aircraft had got airborne as planned and suffered a double engine failure (birdstrikes?) at 100'. You might then post criticising the captain for not briefing for the double engine failure, the low level terrain, the emergency fuel dump procedure, the immediate return for an overweight landing on the reciprocal runway, the evac procedure after the resulting brake fires etc etc.

It's all very well being wise after the event but it's clearly impractical to brief for every eventuality. Hindsight is a wonderful attribute.

PAXboy

24th Dec 2013, 23:47

As an outsider and one who has merely beein paxing into FAJS for 48 years.

The photo shows that there is no big 'turn left' sign and, we are told, fewer signs are illuminated at night at JNB. Really?? But then, this is Africa.

I can see two mgmts involved. the SA airports mgmt who have not plugged this whole (despite seeing ever more a/c from ever more countries bring their precious tourists that SA so desperately needs) .

Then I see a potential mgmt involved in the sending of numbers after the push. Sounds like a good way to save time? Hmmm.

Lastly, it has been stated that the F and WT+ pax did NOT disembark first. Due to the physical layout, the unloaded from the last row, down steps to busses.

This was a cheese and like all cheses, all the parts were known about in advance. And I'll bet that two lots of mgmt (SA and BA) will not have their careers blighted by this. besides, of those that took the decisions, most will already be retired. As always. THAT'S why i feel sympathy for the crew.

nitpicker330

24th Dec 2013, 23:54

Yes as usual there are many holes in the Swiss cheese and unfortunately they lined up on the night.

It's not just the Captain that is at fault.

PukinDog

25th Dec 2013, 00:03

wilsr
Pukindog:

>>Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world, and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the jog to the left, the expectation to look for the red hold-short sign for the runway (as clearly seen in the picture) and the fact that there's a taxiway leading straight ahead you don't want to take. The whole purpose of briefing beforehand it is to figure out the traps before you begin taxiing and arrive there because there are cockpit chore and duty distractions in between. If you expect there to be no traps or have them all magically erased you're in the wrong business.<<

Correct - but your post is in response to a previous incident and is idealistic.

Say the aircraft had got airborne as planned and suffered a double engine failure (birdstrikes?) at 100'. You might then post criticising the captain for not briefing for the double engine failure, the low level terrain, the emergency fuel dump procedure, the immediate return for an overweight landing on the reciprocal runway, the evac procedure after the resulting brake fires etc etc.

It's all very well being wise after the event but it's clearly impractical to brief for every eventuality. Hindsight is a wonderful attribute.

I'm not dealing with hindsight or "every eventuality". The subject is getting lost while taxiing. As i stated, the best tool in the shed for THIS type of incident (as well as preventing runway incursions or accepting a bogus clearance) is a thorough brief as to taxi expectations then adjusted for the actual clearance and reviewing it before you're moving. This is something that should be done TODAY and TOMORROW, not only in hindsight. Apparently, you haven't seen most pilots here stating we have been confused at some point or another during taxi. We taxi aircraft at least twice each flight. However, most responses are moaning about bad lighting, bad signage, etc etc. Yes, that's the real world out there where everything isn't perfect.

What has been lost as far as things that could prevent this has nothing to do with depending on some 3rd world airport authority to rectify problems that will never be rectified. What hasn't been addressed is what we as pilots do to mitigate these threats up until that day (which will never come) where everything is perfectly laid-out for us and we don't even have to think ahead.

And lastly, I didn't criticize this captain. I stated at the very beginning I'm interested in hearing as to whether a proper and thorough brief of taxi expectations and clearance were done. Doing so is SOP. It's routine (or should be). That isn't 'idealism" as you put it, it's professionalism and is only one of the many things we're paid to do.

It sounds to me like you don't bother with briefing the taxi route/clearance. Is it not that important to you or just don't think it's needed? Do you even recognize it's importance?

neila83

25th Dec 2013, 00:21

It gets worse.

Wisr. Seriously? As I understand it, getting to the runway is considered a necessary routine part of any flight and part of pilots training, and something planes are designed for. I believe double engine failures are outside most expectations. Hence sensible to brief the taxi. Your post seems to imply you don't consider a taxi briefing necessary, and as appropriate as briefing for hypothetical 1 in a billion events.

The poster didn't suggest briefing for any eventuality. They suggested briefing for a known necessary part of the flight, which your colleagues have said is the most dangerous part at night, so that seems sensible does it not? Maybe it's time you start doing a taxi briefing....or if you really think you can't fly to JNB without an unacceptable risk of killing people, then don't. It sounds like some here are as scared of taxiing as the Asiana crew were of visual approaches.

Surely the crew had briefed well enough to know there was a turn in that area? If I crash a car into another car, injure or kill people, and say 'the signs weren't good enough', you know what, they don't care, I get jail time. This guy won't, and shouldn't, but, just understand, you're not being picked on. I think some of us just want to know pilots take this king of thing seriously, and most of you do, it's just scary some don't, that's all.

I spent the last 2 years living in the Pacific working on shipping, and if you think your navaids are bad, try steering into a Pacific port in a barely seaworthy boat, in a storm. And if it sinks, the captain, in the unlikely event he lives, certainly doesn't get another go. Deal with your responsibility, you earn more than 5% (probably more) of people in Britain, doing a job I assume you chose to do, rather than one you are forced to do like most people.

llondel

25th Dec 2013, 01:17

I had a look on Google Maps at the area, and also at the photo (equivalent to Street View:)). In daylight I don't think I'd make the mistake, but depending on lights, I could well see making an error in the dark. When I'm in my car I tend to check out new routes in advance, but sometimes I still go wrong if I miss a landmark even if I'm looking for it, or if a signpost doesn't actually say what I expect and so go past it (that was last month). I tend to realise fairly quickly that it's happened, but I don't think the crew had that much time.

Even if you're briefed, it's quite possible to miss something when you're unfamiliar with the route, especially with lots of other stuff going on at the same time. It wouldn't surprise me to find that there was a distraction in the cockpit at the critical moment approaching the turn.

PukinDog

25th Dec 2013, 02:25

When you're identifying threats in a brief, you're prioritizing things to maintain vigilance for once you get going, and "unfamiliarity" is one of these things and a well-known and talked-about threat. So is bad signage, so is weather that could obscure identifiers like the lines and markings (snow packed surfaces, standing water, fog, etc etc) causing you to get lost. The stakes are high, much higher than a super-pranged wing, a runway incursion being the most obvious. In this accident, people in that building could have easily been killed.

You can't really equate briefing yourself on your route in a car to this. Missing your turn-off in a car and having to go back is not the same thing as inadvertently winding up on a runway under a landing or rolling-out aircraft in the dark (or this incident). If those were the stakes when you checked your route in a car, where missing your turn means not simply turning around in embarrassment but being T-boned by a truck killing everyone or driving off a cliff, you would check your route, check your progress a LOT more strictly along the way, and slow down at the first hint of doubt as to where you are.

Part of airmanship is managing distractions and maintaining priorities sometimes by adjusting what can be adjusted (delaying a checklist, telling someone to stby, etc) as necessary. It's what we do.

bertpig

25th Dec 2013, 03:15

Question from an outsider; The raised bank by the fence that is visible in the daylight pic from post #50 seems to be strewn with a lot of debris. It also appears from the other photos that the outboard engine may have been in close proximity to this area. Is it likely that the engine will have ingested and potentially have been damaged by any of that?

Thanks.

llondel

25th Dec 2013, 03:38

Part of airmanship is managing distractions and maintaining priorities sometimes by adjusting what can be adjusted (delaying a checklist, telling someone to stby, etc) as necessary. It's what we do.

Clearly it doesn't always work and like everyone else I'm interested to see the report with probable cause.

When taxiing in the dark, what sort of view does the aircraft lights give of what's off to the side of the taxiway in front? Or does it pretty much just show the area immediately in front of the aircraft (especially high up in a 747). Also, from how far away are the red runway signs visible, especially in the presence of other lighting? It looks very small and low down in that picture.

GBV

25th Dec 2013, 03:54

What taxiway is usually used when taxing to RWY03L, A or B?

Sydy

25th Dec 2013, 04:45

Small correction, it was the Embraer Service Center in Le Bourget. We still have the wing fence to prove it... LOL

ynwa

25th Dec 2013, 06:58

I'm assuming that the building didn't have any obstacle lights?
If this is the case, then the crew might have been alerted of the
wing tip clearance and consequently they were down the wrong
taxiway.
It seems that the crew are partly to blame for this incident (pending the official report) but everyone makes mistakes and good airport infrastructure is needed to safeguard any errors made.

Eddie787

25th Dec 2013, 08:14

"Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the"

Nonsense, O R Tambo is as good as a first world airport.

Tacitus

25th Dec 2013, 08:50

Just curious,
Why was a BA 747 towed out for takeoff at Johannesburg RW03L this evening?

Any updates on this one?

I.R.PIRATE

25th Dec 2013, 08:55

I've heard the towing story is a rumour only.

Other rumour is that BA normally taxi on A, but had been parked in an unusual spot for them on the night in question, necessitating B.

Albert Driver

25th Dec 2013, 09:33

To all the folk on this thread who have never been in command of a jumbo operating in Africa at night but still want to give us all the benefit of their total inexperience .......

Merry Christmas to you!

FantomZorbin

25th Dec 2013, 09:45

Way back in the late '70s, a BA Tristar followed the 'yellows' at Luqa one night!
We only found out when the Met Man rang up to say that the observer was just about to report "sky obscured" when the wing moved on - it was very dark!
A substitute crew took the a/c out!

Iirc this was the first time a Tristar had been to the airport - it was meant to be a proving flight!

Capetonian

25th Dec 2013, 09:54

It's Jan Smuts to me too (and better than many first world airports), but the then country north of the Limpopo is Rhodesia ...... but not the point. This happened at a so-called first world airport!
Passengers waiting to fly out from xxxxxxxxx Airport were today being warned that it could take several days before flights returned to normal, as engineers battled to restore power.

Thousands of furious travellers were left stranded after Monday night's storm caused a power cut at the busy terminal, with the outage also preventing people from being able to check in their luggage, get a warm drink and even use the toilets, which rely on automatic flushes.

The airport said that normal service would resume today, although the majority of flights were due to depart and carrier xxxxxxxxx warned that it could take 'a couple of days' before the schedule was fully back on track.
Meanwhile, many passengers who had given up waiting amid yesterday's chaos today were battling to retrieve their luggage when their flights were cancelled after they had checked-in and their bags were not returned.

Trim Stab

25th Dec 2013, 10:30

BA frequently used to do that at Heathrow "Just getting the numbers" as we told them to line up! Maybe they don't now (hopefully).

They definitely still do this. Speedbird 82 blocked the taxiway to Abuja 22 for a good 5 mins on 21 December apologetically "waiting for the numbers" at the holding point.

Golf_Seirra

25th Dec 2013, 11:18

I certainly will not cast a stone with regard to missing the correct taxiway as I have nearly done the same at that particular intersection. The lighting is poor and we certainly could use some form of red intersection lighting...

My issue with this incident changed when I learnt four of my family members where on-board the flight....some of the pictures taken were from my nephew.

So here is my open question to B.A., which will be addressed in a more formal manner. If someone from P.R. is following this thread, then please consider an answer for us all.

1. If I were a passenger on-board and I ignored the instructions from the cabin crew to remain seated and decided to evacuate via a door slide with my family in tow, what would be B.A.'s position ?

( This in light of fuel leaking from the wing into a partly demolished building and associated exposed 220V wiring ).

Would I receive a life time ban, fine or criminal charge ?

2. Why was there no controlled evacuation order given ? The cabin crews answer to my sister and mother, was that the aircraft would be unbalanced and could "sit on her tail"......
While we all know there certainly would be injuries from a slide evacuation, why does B.A. seem to be more concerned from minor injury litigation than risking much more losses, if there had been a post impact fire. I certainly would not trust someone finding the electrical isolation switch for the building in question, if there is one in the first place.

It was a great job from all concerned, the fire department mainly, who prevented this from being far worse.

That said and with the limited info available here on the thread, if I was the captain, I would not have taken the chance....get your pax to safety !

Standing by for the return fire.....

ByAirMail

25th Dec 2013, 11:31

Capetonian,
You compare a power outage in severe storm conditions to power outage on a normal day. My last JNB trip was during perfect weather conditions . JHB had no fuel available due to prolonged power failures, for no apparent reason but incompetence.

cockney steve

25th Dec 2013, 12:12

Most revealing, that last photofrom the cockpit:eek:
How strange that an english countryside "B"-road, used mainly by sub-50 thousand pound cars and tractors, is a damned -sight better marked and signposted, than a taxiway used mainly by ~50 MILLION pound aircraft :ooh:

It amazes me , how pilots find their way around with such piss-poor signage and vast expanses of concrete with a couple of scabby, worn and low-viz paintlines at best.

OTOH, Myself and the rest of the B-road users, don't set ourselves up as professional drivers commanding £100, 000 plus, to exercise our skills!
I won't bring the odd lorry-driver getting stuck under a bridge, or the double-decker driver who converts it to single under said obstruction;)
into the debate. ( again, poor pay and poor training for what they do and the responsibility they ultimately carry.)

Perhaps internationally, professional Aviators' "unions" should be collectively directing their energies towards persuading these wayward airports to upgrade their facilities to 21st. century standards, or suffer a distinct lack of professional Aviators bringing custom to said "landing strip"

NigelOnDraft

25th Dec 2013, 12:20

Golf Sierra

Not speaking specifically about this incident, but as a skipper, I would tend to avoid an evacuation if at all possible. It can cause life changing injuries.

Avtur is not Avgas / petrol. It is really quite hard work to ignite, does not explode when in liquid form, and if you have a fire service standing by - even if it does light up, will be suppressed ASAP.

Bear in mind the Flt Crew do not tend to say "we will not evacuate" - they say "we will not evacuate now". That decision can be "upgraded" to evacuate instantly, and everybody will be off in 90s. I know of few (Saudi TriStar) non-evacuations which were costly in losing lives, I can think of plenty where in retrospect, an evacuation might have been better avoided/delayed. Bottom Line:if I was the captain, I would not have taken the chance....get your pax to safety !I am not trained that an evacuation is getting my pax to safety - it is putting them in real danger. It is done when it is assessed it is safer (or less hazardous) than not evacuating. That of course is largely a subjective decision ;)

I have no idea what BA would do to pax who initiate an evacuation themselves. In circumstances such as this, it would be more for the investigation team to assess, and make recommendations as required. As Flt Crew we are aware an evacuation may be initiated by "others", normally CC.

As above, I would not bother writing to BA about the (non-)evacuation. Better, if you have a genuine concern, would be to communicate with whoever is investigating - it is after all a significant factor in their job.

Golf_Seirra

25th Dec 2013, 12:28

Thanks for the reply.....I agree about JET A1. Not as volatile as people think. But I still worry about if we were now discussing why an evac was not initiated in a worst case scenario.

Seems to be these situations are always skirting the devil you do, damned if you don't situation.

Reminds me that there is never a clear cut reaction / answer to any given scenario...

Damn Christmas in the Sahara, Merry Christmas to all those away from family.

The Ancient Geek

25th Dec 2013, 12:56

There are reasons why the layout and signage have never been sorted.
When I was there 30mumble years ago Smuts was owned by the railways, managed by political appointees and staffing was reserved employment for idiots.

Now it is run by a state owned airports company, only the names and the colour of the faces has changed.

vctenderness

25th Dec 2013, 14:03

I have followed this thread with great interest. I would like to say something from the perspective of 'the other side of the door'.

I spent just shy of 40 years on commercial jets and the folk at the sharp end brought me home safely to my loved ones every time.

It is easy to be critical when an incident like this occurs and it is true that mistakes can happen to even the most experienced pilot, however no one on that aircraft deserves to be vilified or pilloried. For what ever reason circumstances came together and the accident happened. The crew will be as unhappy as anyone about the outcome their careers will be blighted by this and for the younger ones their prospects will be diminished.

I hope that BA take a constructive approach to any action and that the folks at the front can continue to deliver the norm - safe and secure operations for all.