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BillHicksRules
17th Dec 2013, 21:45
For those who clearly wish to discuss this and to prevent them derailing the Independence thread.

probes
17th Dec 2013, 21:48
:sad: mis-read: secretarianism... wherever :sad:

Wingswinger
17th Dec 2013, 22:04
Well I certainly remember it when I was a shaver in an East Glasgow primary school:

Whit fitba team dae ye support?

Nixon or Kennedy fur US President?

Woe betide you if you gave the wrong answer.

radeng
17th Dec 2013, 22:17
The only 'sectarianism' I saw was not one to be ashamed of.

Back in about 1984 or so, I was coming back from Scotland, and arrived into Queen Street with a view to leaving on the sleeper from Glasgow Central. It was the day of Celtic and Rangers match....

On the opposite platform was an arrival from Perth and a guy getting off that train collapsed on the platform - full of both Rangers and Celtic fans. Immediately one of each rushed over and started CPR, sent their mates off to call an ambulance and others to get the station First Aid equipment. The fans of both sides took the stretcher to the ambulance, loaded the front of the ambulance with cans of beer, and sent it off with a united cheer from both sets of supporters!

The Police stood around and did f**k all!!

Not much sectarianism there where you would most expect it.....Although arguably typical Scots generosity.

rab-k
17th Dec 2013, 22:23
Thankfully the further you get away from Glasgow, Ayrshire and Lanarkshire, what there is, becomes less apparent, and eventually disappears.


Sadly, Belfast will be a sectarian-free-zone long before Glasgow ever will; a problem perpetuated in that city by certain sections of support belonging to two large football clubs, whose names escape me. (I'd like to think the problem sections of each club's support are in a minority, but I've never been to either Ibrox or Celtic Park therefore will defer to those 'in the know').


As for the mouth breathers who spread their bile from across the North Channel every June and July, a few WWII mines bobbing about in Loch Ryan wouldn't go amiss IMHO.


Before anyone jumps to conclusions, supporting the Scotland national squad is the only time I show interest in that particular sport, and I do not, nor have ever had, a 'religion'. So a plague on both their houses, to use a biblical term.


Bigoted 'scum' is just that, 'scum', irrespective of what it claims to do on a Sunday morning or what foot it claims to kick with.


(Before I'm flamed by anyone from N.Ireland, where I also have relatives I might add, I'm well aware that 'scum' floats in both directions across the North Channel).

Tankertrashnav
18th Dec 2013, 10:31
I moved away from Scotland at the age of 12, having grown up and gone to Catholic schools in first Dumbarton, then Glasgow.

I was totally bemused by the fact that all of a sudden my religion was no longer of any interest to my schoolfriends, as I attended a normal grammar school which took in pupils of all religions or none. We all got to support the same football team (Carlisle United) so, Protestant or Catholic, we all had a common cause to grieve!

sitigeltfel
18th Dec 2013, 12:12
Moshe was making his way home after a night out in Glasgow and was stopped by a bunch of neds who asked what religion he was.

When he said "Jewish" the gang conferred for a moment, then the ringleader said, "Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?"

Metro man
18th Dec 2013, 12:16
Scottish protestants are more bigoted than catholics, it's much easier to say "F*** the Pope." than it is to say "F*** the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland."

G&T ice n slice
18th Dec 2013, 13:24
Sure it's old, but it is beautiful and the colors they are fine
It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen, and the Boyne.
Sure my father wore it when a youth In the bygone days of yore,
And it's on the twelfth I love to wear The sash my father wore.

..............................

And we're all off to Dublin in the green, in the green
Where the helmets glisten in the sun
Where the bayonets flash and the rifles crash
To the rattle of a Thompson gun

Seldomfitforpurpose
18th Dec 2013, 13:32
I remember my dad, a born and bred Glaswegian Celtic supporter hoping that his brother in law was one of the dead in the Ibrox disaster, then fast forward to today and we have


BBC News - Celtic Green Brigade fans face trial over 'IRA song' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25418578)


It will probably take a couple more generations before we see this sort of thing bred out of society.........

AtomKraft
18th Dec 2013, 13:43
Well if you ask me, it's going to take a hell of a lot longer if we continue to separate the Catholics from the rest at the tender age of five.

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious......

Alloa Akbar
18th Dec 2013, 13:45
Two football clubs from Glasgow, one set of fans singing about a Queen who lives in London, the others singing about a religious leader in Rome..

Go figure.. :ugh:

BillHicksRules
18th Dec 2013, 16:01
AK,

I agree.

I disagreed with Tom when he spoke of the seperation of schools as an example of a culturally diverse society.

To me it creates a culturally divisive situation.

Religion should have no place in State Schools. We should most certainly not be paying taxes to fund division and sectarianism.

Football Sectarianism is a problem but it is the end product not the root cause.

StressFree
18th Dec 2013, 16:35
BillHicks,

Well said sir, religion is a personal choice but should not be state funded in any way. All schools must be religion free and if an individual wants to pursue faith in their own time then so be it. Secularism is the only cohesive state policy that leaves no bitterness from any side.......

bcgallacher
18th Dec 2013, 17:05
BillHicks - seperate schooling for one group in our society must make a contribution to sectarianism and it is a blot on Scottish communal life.
My wife is Catholic,I am Atheist,she wanted the children baptised Catholic,I agreed but with the stipulation that the children would attend non denominational schools - they can follow their own path when they decide what, if any, faith they favour. I am not entirely sure that the West Coast sectarianism is entirely religious - the recent fining of Celtic football club for fans displaying politically inspired banners comes to mind.I once flew as flight mech on a 747 carrying Celtic supporters from Glasgow to Paris and noted many Irish tricolours but no Scottish Saltires which makes me think much of the problem is more than religious.

Krystal n chips
18th Dec 2013, 18:24
G n T

I am intrigued !......pragmatism was never a former attribute of The Party but now, here in black and white, we have clear evidence of the change with your chosen lyrics.....:p

On the other hand, these also have a certain association with the topic of this thread.....

Songtext - Lyrix.at - THE DERRY AND CUMBERLAND BOYS Lyrics - HAMISH IMLACH Songtext Lyrics (http://www.lyrix.at/en/text_show/3af87e284cd392256816233da62e9d47-Hamish_Imlach_-_The_Derry_And_Cumberland_Boys)

AtomKraft
18th Dec 2013, 18:34
Bill

Well having gently slagged you off in the independence thread, I'm glad you have again spouted sense on this one.

If we're going to hear that segregated schooling is not part of the problem, I want to hear it from a Catholic.
Because, as a proddy, I always knew I was on the upside of the deal, just as my non-friends knew they weren't.

It IS Scotland's shame. ie, it's not a made up thing,it's a real shame and we should all feel it.

I think the report that said schools had FA to do with it was probably a West of Sotland, ie Labour, ie Catholic take on the situation.

These are the guys who say Thursday's Wednesday if it suits them.

Utter pish.

perthsaint
18th Dec 2013, 19:52
If I'm going to believe separate schooling is the issue then someone needs to explain why other countries with separate schooling don't have sectarianism.

bcgallacher
18th Dec 2013, 20:53
Perthsaint - I think that the difference is that it is only one denomination that is educated separately under a state system,all the others are educated together in non denominational schools.I would have thought that educating children from a young age together, regardless of race or religion, would perhaps reduce the amount of racism and religious bigotry.
The situation has improved considerably from the days of my youth - the young people today are more tolerant - church attendances and those professing some kind of faith are plummeting. As far as I am concerned this can only be a good thing -it will be one less division in our society.

perthsaint
18th Dec 2013, 21:02
And yet other countries are the same but don't have sectarianism. Why not?

bcgallacher
18th Dec 2013, 21:14
How many countries have you spent time in? You must have led a very sheltered existence - there is much worse than anything you have experienced in Scotland. Try being a Coptic christian in Egypt,a Bahai in Iran or even a Shiite Muslim in Pakistan. Closer to home -being a non Catholic in the republic of Ireland until recent times was not much fun either.

perthsaint
18th Dec 2013, 21:24
So why doesn't England have sectarianism?

Lonewolf_50
18th Dec 2013, 21:28
They are out of practice. :p

(Sorry, just being a wise acre, no dog in the fight).

Wingswinger
18th Dec 2013, 21:49
So why doesn't England have sectarianism?

Probably because the average Anglo-Saxon is less fiery and slower to take offence than the average Celt. Also the English Civil War (a major part of the British Wars of Religion of the 17th C) had such a deeply traumatic effect on the general populace which lasts until today. This probably helps to explain why English Jacobites did not rise as expected to join the '45. Memories of the carnage of the 1640s were still raw.

As an aside, those wars were started in St Giles' cathedral in Edinburgh when Charles I tried to ram a catholic prayer book down the throats of the Protestant congregation. This is the root of modern sectarianism on both sides of the Irish Sea.

BillHicksRules
18th Dec 2013, 22:46
PS,

I think you need to spend some time with the history books to read up on religious persecution over the last 600-700 years in England.

For example they are only now getting rid of the bar on a non-Protestant being in the line of succession and the bar on an heir (or anyone else in the line of succession) marrying a Catholic.

bcgallacher
18th Dec 2013, 22:53
PS - England does not have the same kind of segregated schools. Nor is there the same kind of religious bigotry comparable to the two Glasgow football clubs to fan the flames.

TomJoad
18th Dec 2013, 23:15
Perthsaint - I think that the difference is that it is only one denomination that is educated separately under a state system,all the others are educated together in non denominational schools.

An entirely erroneous view that is partly responsible for the perpetuation of the misinformed judgement placed on denominational schooling. I presently teach in an Scottish denominational school (secondary) where over 50% of the pupils are either not RC, either having a different faith tradition Church of Scotland, Muslim, Buddhist or none. Our school role has been growing over the past 3 successive years at a time when the roles of our comparator schools have been falling or remain static. Somewhat telling that parents of no faith or other faith traditions are making positive placement request for their children at a faith school. Our school's academic performance is below our comparator schools at national and local level - those positive placement requests are not therefore made on the basis of expected educational attainment. Rather some other character of our school is attractive to these parents.

In my opinion, having grown up in the shadow of sectarianism in Lanarkshire, the root cause lies not in faith schooling rather Glasgow Rangers and Celtic football clubs together with the marching bands from either sides. I am a practising catholic who rejected the mindless ideology of sectarianism as a youth. I served in HM forces and never once experienced that poison of sectarianism beyond the shores of Scotland and in particular the west coast. I would challenge any practising Christian to justify support of sectarianism - if they do then in my humble opinion they are neither Christian nor practising.

The recent government commission charged with investigating sectarianism in Scotland reported that:

"Sectarianism in Scotland neither stems from nor is the responsibility of denominational schooling.

The reports also concludes "religious bigotry is neither "the biggest nor the most acute social issue Scotland faces" but wants it tackled with the same vigour as racism and homophobia.

Provision of faith schools, in my opinion, is representative of a culturally diverse society, respectful of parental choice. I agree with the Advisory Group in that they are not responsible for sectarianism. I believe I speak from an informed point of view having taught in both denominational and non denominational schools in Scotland and in England.

Incidentally, another key recommendation from the report is for football's governing bodies and clubs to financially support work to tackle sectarianism at the sport's grass roots. Tacit recognition of where this poisonous cancer breeds. Thankfully, as some have noted it is largely confined to the greater Glasgow area on the West Coast. It is also on the downward slope with the marching bands looking more and more a parody of a by gone age.

So no, Faith schools, many of which now operate with shared campuses, should remain as part of a culturally diverse and respectful Scotland and so long as there is parental demand. At the moment that parental demand is very strong comprising those belonging to a recognised faith, Christian or otherwise, and those of none. The bogey man on this one will be found elsewhere, I suggest wearing football colours.:ok:

AtomKraft
19th Dec 2013, 05:21
I've got no problem with faith schools (ok, I'd prefer it if there were none) but I definitely don't think they should be taxpayer funded as they are now.

Those who want them should have them, I grudgingly admit, but should also pay.

The state should pay to teach all subjects apart from religion. Parents ought to advise their children as they see fit.

The state should only teach a basic understanding of religions and not preach or support any particulate version of it

AtomKraft
19th Dec 2013, 05:24
TomJoad

Catholic man supports Catholic school ( where he works!) and says Catholic schools' are not a problem.....:hmm:

Any vested interest you'd like to declare here? ;)

Wingswinger
19th Dec 2013, 05:59
Hasn't he just declared it? Tom's been open and honest and I accept what he says. When my daughter was young we sent her for a few years to a convent school despite our not being Catholics. There was no hint of religious discrimination or favouritism evident.

He put his finger on the issue with the phrase "practicing Christians". If one reads the scriptures it is impossible to be truly Christian and be either a racist or a religious bigot. Sectarian violence is certainly beyond the Christain pale.

perthsaint
19th Dec 2013, 06:25
Tom making perfect sense, Bill making no sense. Who would have guessed? :ok:

BillHicksRules
19th Dec 2013, 08:13
TJ,

"The bogey man on this one will be found elsewhere, I suggest wearing football colours"

I am sorry but as long as this is the focus the situation will not be solved.

There are 40 other teams in Scotland whose supporters wear football colours without any sectarianism.

The Catholic-Protestant divide in Scotlant will be be significantly reduced until we stop dividing Catholics and Protestants from their earliest school days.

Faith has not place in a publicly funded schooling system.

Faith and faith education (for that read indoctrination) should be kept within the walls of the place of worship. I mean this for all religions.

sitigeltfel
19th Dec 2013, 08:24
So why doesn't England have sectarianism?

Tottenham Hotspur?

Alloa Akbar
19th Dec 2013, 10:55
There are 40 other teams in Scotland whose supporters wear football colours without any sectarianism.


Wrong.. Pure and simple.

BillHicksRules
19th Dec 2013, 11:40
Alloa,

You are correct.

Let me rephrase "There are 40 other senior teams in Scotland whose supporters wear football colours without any sectarianism."

Thanks for picking up my mistake.

B Fraser
19th Dec 2013, 17:10
Alloa..

Two football clubs from Glasgow, one set of fans singing about the head of a religion who wears a dress and lives in London, the others singing about the head of a religion who wears a dress and lives in Rome.

Fixed it for you mate ! :}

bcgallacher
19th Dec 2013, 18:26
The chap wearing the frock in London has no relevance to the Scottish Protestant Church.

B Fraser
19th Dec 2013, 19:04
Queen Elizabeth is a chap ???????

:uhoh:

TomJoad
19th Dec 2013, 19:16
TomJoad

Catholic man supports Catholic school ( where he works!) and says Catholic schools' are not a problem.....:hmm:

Any vested interest you'd like to declare here? ;)

Hell's teeth Atom, I thought I just had:ugh: Read on and in my response you a will also see I have worked across the secondary sector including both denominational and non denominational schools:ugh: Read further and you will see that an independent commission, charged with investigating sectarianism found no linkage to denominational schools.:ugh: If you are sufficiently motivated pull Education Scotland (HMIE) reports and you will find no linkage or charges of sectarianism across either denominational or non denominational schools.:ugh: But yes you crack on, "I have a vested interest":ugh:

Care to think for a moment - do you suppose all catholic parents, or indeed catholic teacher parents are in favour of denominational schools? Or perhaps there is a variety of thought within those particular subsets just as there are elsewhere:ugh: But hey, don't let any preconceived ideas get in the way of impartial thought Atom. :ugh:

TomJoad
19th Dec 2013, 19:29
TJ,

"The bogey man on this one will be found elsewhere, I suggest wearing football colours"


There are 40 other teams in Scotland whose supporters wear football colours without any sectarianism.

The Catholic-Protestant divide in Scotlant will be be significantly reduced until we stop dividing Catholics and Protestants from their earliest school days.



You are obviously better informed on this matter than I and all of the independent research, including the most recent from the Scottish Advisory Committee of Sectarianism, and Education Scotland (HMIE). I'll desist.


Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism in Scotland (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/12/6197)

TomJoad
19th Dec 2013, 20:36
Aye but ah'll bet The Scottish Advisory Committee of Sectarianism, and Education Scotland didnae live where Ah did!

Naw but they came and spake tae all folk aboot Scotland aboot the problem. The committee wir also drawn frae awe folk fae awe backgroonds and places.:ok:

Why do I feel the urge to get my red pen out. Not at work now, not at work now must remember:p

Mr Chips
19th Dec 2013, 21:27
I am fascinated to read that only Scotland has faith schools. I could have sworn that I went to a Roman Catholic Primary school and then a Roman Catholic Secondary School in London, England.

Oh, and for those who say that such schools shouldn't be taxpayer funded, I suggest you check on "voluntary aided"

And Catholic and other church schools tend to have better academic results.

TBirdFrank
20th Dec 2013, 01:02
From bitter personal experience this last few months there is one other item not in play here which has a less public face, but as strong and widespread a presence.

Bare a breast and wear a pinny to find out more!

AtomKraft
20th Dec 2013, 12:51
Hey Tom

I put a 'wink' smiley to indicate a certain degree of tongue in cheek....was in play.

Of course you stated your interest. Couldn't be clearer.

Time for a bit of knicker un twisting, eh?

Ha ha. Joke. ;););):):):)

My two serious point though are:

1. If you think separating the Catholics and others at five makes no difference, all I can say is for my best mate, it sure did.

2. I doubt the independence or your independent enquiry. My mileage indicates otherwise, and I've lived here all my life and seen countless disputes. Have faith schools by all means, but let the faiths pay. Taxpayers money should be spent without taint of inequality.

Mr Chips
20th Dec 2013, 13:13
Basil my schooling instilled no prejudices in me whatsoever.

Atomkraft as I am the product of a totally Catholic education from 5 to 18 and have not had prejudice instilled in me, I would suggest that the problem lies with your friend, not his education. As for taxpayers money, I suggest (again) you check in to "voluntary aided"

Alloa Akbar
20th Dec 2013, 13:18
For the record.. The Freemasons aren't a secret society.. They are a society with secrets :p

BillHicksRules - I still disagree mate.. go to a Rangers V Hearts game and you will hear the Hearts fans gleefully sing "There's only one team of proddy's!" (Well, that used to happen.. before it was outlawed;))

The religious divide isn't anywhere near as bad in the east, to be fair.

StressFree
20th Dec 2013, 13:24
Caco,

Wise words :D

BillHicksRules
20th Dec 2013, 13:57
Alloa,

I know what you are saying.

I am a Killie fan (yeah I know sucker for punishment!!) and we are either Huns or Tims without the bus fare depending on which end of Glasgow is visiting!

AtomKraft
20th Dec 2013, 14:07
Mr Chips.

Look, I've worked in Glasgow for decades. I've been there, seen it and worn the t-shirt.

My mate has no problem ( he's a prod) but all his catholic mates went off to a different school when they went to high school- and next time he saw them, things had changed...

For clarity, they were all together during primary due small village.

I've got middle class chums now, and they like a joke, but it stays a joke... Mostly.

In the lower strata of our society it's very much not a joke.

I guess it would be hard to prove the root of everything, but I can't see how educating the kids separately could ever be part of the solution.
More like the start of the problem?

You think what you like though. I've no interest in the issue at all, apart from wishing it was less of one.

TomJoad
20th Dec 2013, 16:28
Hey Tom


1. If you think separating the Catholics and others at five makes no difference, all I can say is for my best mate, it sure did.

2. I doubt the independence or your independent enquiry. My mileage indicates otherwise, and I've lived here all my life and seen countless disputes. Have faith schools by all means, but let the faiths pay. Taxpayers money should be spent without taint of inequality.

1. Could it be that, whatever "the difference" was it was more to do with your mate than the school he attended. In the final analysis we make our own decisions - most reject the falsehood of sectarianism.

2a. Upon what evidence is your doubt placed?

2b. I too, as I indicate in my previous post, lived and was brought up in my formative years in the sectarian heartland of Scotland. I rejected it completely, in large measure helped by the education I received at school and from my parents. No, the responsibility lies with the individual, to argue otherwise is to abrogate that responsibility. The killers of Lee Rigby used that defence and it was found wanting - the individual, not a system, idea or institution makes the decision to be bigoted.

2c. On taxpayers money. Yep you got me on that one. It's a well kept secret that all catholic parents receive a kick back from HM revenue on their pay statement - they get an increased personal allowance. That way they don't pay for their children's education. It's a cunning ploy that is even extended to those non catholic who choose to send their children to denominational schools. They also get a tax kick back - but shh don't tell everybody, if they found out that only non catholics, and those catholics that don't use denominational schools pay for education services there would be riots.;)

You will notice the use of the wee winky icon on that last one due to my large dose of sarcasm:ok:

AtomKraft
20th Dec 2013, 17:13
1. My mate has no problem. His ex school chums did. My mates as uninterested as I am.

2a. There are too many vested interests here. Also west of Scotland local politics are dominated by Catholics. It's almost unpleasant to type that, but it's definitely correct, especially in Glasgow. The outcome of the independent enquiry is hard to believe, at least for me.

2b. I rejected it too. So what? Millions of people buy into it.

2c. I accept that Catholics and non- Catholics contribute the same.
My point is that only Catholics get their own seperate schools.

And in my opinion, this gets us off to a poor start, and then the football thing keeps it going.

Look, don't believe it if you don't want to. I couldn't care less.

TomJoad
20th Dec 2013, 18:03
1. My mate has no problem. His ex school chums did. My mates as uninterested as I am. Then the problem lies with your mate's mates - the individual is responsible for their own actions not an institution, service or other

2a. There are too many vested interests here. Also west of Scotland local politics are dominated by Catholics. That should be blind to you, that you are able to discern and differentiate your view on that is concerning.

It's almost unpleasant to type that, but it's definitely correct, especially in Glasgow. The outcome of the independent enquiry is hard to believe, at least for me. But if we reject independent evidence we leave ourselves open to the persuasion of the biggoted argument. Are we to pick and choose the independent enquiries until we get the answer we want:=

2b. I rejected it too. So what? Millions of people buy into it. I suspect somewhat smaller than that - the important point being that most right thinking folk reject it:D

2c. I accept that Catholics and non- Catholics contribute the same.
My point is that only Catholics get their own seperate schools. Simply wrong, Denominational schools are open to any parent making a placing request irrespective of faith. My own school has a cohort of almost 50% of no faith or other non catholic faith background. Those parents all made placement requests - in effect a positive choice - they get it

And in my opinion, this gets us off to a poor start, and then the football thing keeps it going.It is in the crucible of the football stands where the chants, derogatory remarks and nicknames, bigoted and twisted history is learnt. These do not appear anywhere in Scotland's school curriculum.

Look, don't believe it if you don't want to. I couldn't care less.But it is important that we do care - particularly more so should we achieve independence. And it is very analogous to that debate where rumour and supposition should not be allowed to displace evidenced based fact

Atom, I don't see us closing the gap on this, not on a forum anyway. Perhaps we should leave it here.

My comments in blue TJ

Mr Chips
20th Dec 2013, 18:27
Atom for someone so uninterested in the subject, you seem very interested

Catholics are not the only faith schools, there are CofE schools too.

The Catholic Church contributes towards their own schools

I pay for schooling in my taxes yet have no children, so I am paying for everyone's schools

You seem to think that Catholic schools are the root of all sectarianism. You are clearly wrong.

Oh, sorry, forgot. You aren't interested.

Lon More
20th Dec 2013, 18:50
When lived in SW Scotland in the 1950s I was probably too young to notice, or even be concerned with, religious bigotry.
I was surprised, several years ago, to notice how widespread it in fact was. Certain pubs in and around Dumfries are definitely no-go areas to one or another group. Unfortunately I don't see any solution - unless we all become Muslims.:ugh:

.... there are CofE schools too.
You mean Episcopalian, which is not quite the same

Mr Chips
21st Dec 2013, 04:38
LonMore
You mean Episcopalian, which is not quite the same
No,I mean CofE, Church of England,which is why I said it.

Tankertrashnav
21st Dec 2013, 10:24
Re Freemasonry and the Roman Catholic Church. I am (nominally) a Catholic, and had no qualms in joining a masonic lodge, in spite of the church's objections which I think are misguided, as it seems to be under the impression that Freemasonry teaches some sort of weird naturalistic religion, which is nonsense. Can't speak for other lodges, but ours had members from many religions including Catholic, Protestant and Jews, and religion was certainly not on the agenda at any time. By the way, don't ever confuse Freemasonry with the Orange Order which is widespread in the West of Scotland, the rules of Freemasonry forbid members from attending Orange Order meetings or entering their lodges.

Freemasonry has very few secrets, although I admit I am sworn never to divulge the exact nature of the "riding the goat backwards" ritual ;)

Lon More
21st Dec 2013, 10:57
Mr Chips the C of E, like the Tories, has little place in Scotland. There is an Anglican Church, the Episcopal Church of Scotland, which has its own schools but I can find nary a mention of a C of E school within Scotland on the school web index. (http://www.schoolwebindex.com/countries/scotland.php?BTW, thee are IIRC a numbereligion=CE). One Jewish primary school, and there was IIRC a Muslim school in Dundee at one time.

Mr Chips
21st Dec 2013, 12:52
Lon, I am in England, I have clearly stated that, and I am demonstrating that UK taxpayers support other faith schools as well as Catholic.

bcgallacher
21st Dec 2013, 16:59
The report stated that the problem of sectarianism should not be a high priority item. My own opinion is that as all churches are in terminal decline in Scotland as elsewhere, the problem will solve itself - there is a distinct improvement from my youth and even more from my parents time - I am the product of a mixed Protestant/Catholic marriage and the tales my parents told me would not be acceptable now.Give it a generation or so and this nonsense will be forgotten.

TomJoad
21st Dec 2013, 17:31
Yes bc when the last church and denominational school in Scotland closes their doors for the last time there will be no more sectarian janting in the stalls at Ibrox or Parkhead. Those rough hewn types will stand silently, bemused and wonder why they are at a football game.:ugh:

TomJoad
21st Dec 2013, 17:39
TJ,

Buggah, I almost believed that and, before the end of the third sentence, was thinking of moving back, finding an agreeable RC chapel and converting! ;)

Sorry Basil, we don't even get a discount on "Sectarian Monthly" - the periodical of choice for those selecting denominational schooling for their young biggots. You would have thought at least a free pen or something:ok:

Lon More
21st Dec 2013, 17:44
Lon, I am in England, I have clearly stated that, and this is a discussion about sectarianism in Scotland so the existence, or not, of C of E schools is irelevant

Mr Chips
21st Dec 2013, 23:37
No Lon this is a discussion about how Catholic Schools apparently cause the sectarianism in Scotland. Certain claims have been made which I have attempted to rebut. One of those claims was that only Catholic schools exist as faith schools receiving taxpayer money. now, as it is UK tax money, schools anywhere in the UK are relevant

So, it ain't the schools,and it ain't outrageous that they even exist

Try again....

Lon More
22nd Dec 2013, 21:27
Funding in Scotland comes from the Scotish Governmet,

BillHicksRules
29th Dec 2013, 16:59
Mr C,

So where does it start?

We have had sectarianism before we had football so it cannot be that either.

To reduce sectarianism you need to reduce division at all ages where possible.

Lon More
29th Dec 2013, 22:18
I thought Paisley had taken up rugby ....


I heard he'd converted a couple of Catholics

Dave Wilson
30th Dec 2013, 11:44
Being English and therefore totally bemused by sectarianism, could it be that some people just like to fight? If it wan't religion it would probably be the people with brown eyes against the people with blue eyes. I don't see how you can eradicate something that people actually enjoy doing.

Mr Chips
30th Dec 2013, 12:53
bill I don't know where sectarianism comes from, but fro personal experience of the catholic school system and the church community, it is not fostered there. Our biggest rivals at school were other catholic schools.

As it seems to be a Scottish problem, perhaps it is something in the Scottish Psyche? Seriously, the Scots are renowned as brave warriors and stereotyped as fighters, so perhaps the Scottish will always look for a divide?

Mr Chips
30th Dec 2013, 21:39
Now now Lone Ranger, I got told off for daring to reference anywhere outside of Scotland in this thread. I think the IRA and UDA issue goes rather deeper than the discussions on here

Lon More
31st Dec 2013, 09:48
I'm not 100% inagreemet with some things but this (http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2012/12/17/the-roots-of-sectarianism-in-scotland/) is a good place to start

AtomKraft
1st Jan 2014, 16:44
This subject came up at our new year (late night) party last night.


There were a few teachers there and the 'Independent enquiry' was one that a few were aware of.

Nobody there trusted same.

I'd like to know, who was on it?

The general consensus last night was that it must have been comprised of RC people- and that was offered up first by an RC chap..

Usually, the names are a clue. Anyone got them?

fitliker
1st Jan 2014, 19:56
Some peoples understanding of history is a just a tad more shallow than their gene pool.


Covenanter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenanter)

messybeast
2nd Jan 2014, 12:13
AtomKraft

Group members given here:

Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism in Scotland (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/12/6197/9)

AtomKraft
2nd Jan 2014, 19:41
Messy


Thanks.


I must have missed the bit where it concluded sending the RC kids off to be educated separately has FA to do with it.....

Mr Chips
2nd Jan 2014, 20:07
I must have missed the bit where it blamed sectarianism on Catholic Schools, or made any recommendation about Catholic schools beyond sharing campus facilities and forming partnerships

6.44.4 We recommend that there should be an assessment of the impact of positive school leadership, parental and community engagement and relationship building between schools and schools and communities. The existence of the shared campus model enables us to compare shared campus schools with existing Catholic and non-denominational schools that have forged strong partnerships built on robust community engagement. This could be done with an appreciative inquiry approach that seeks to capture and share good practice.

Rail Engineer
2nd Jan 2014, 20:53
Having worked extensively, and indeed currently employing two Protestant Scots, it is clear to me that Sectarianism is something practiced to a far far greater extent by the Protestants than the Catholic population.


Motherwell was well known as a "Catholic" area yet no-one ever asked what foot I led off with (in fact I have so little interest in Sectarianism that I still do not understand what this is supposed to mean) yet when going for a job in Glasgow it was made very clear that only a Rangers supporting Protestant would be successful.


My two guys are fine until drink has been taken, and soon afterwards one will always somehow manage to bring the conversation around to Religion, at which point I now just walkout as I am that poohed off with the issue.