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meadowrun
15th Dec 2013, 20:30
In the US conventional incandescent light bulbs are being phased out effective 1Jan14 (40&60W).

Fans of the country’s most popular light bulbs - the traditional 40 and 60-watt incandescent bulbs - are being encouraging to start stocking up as on January 1 it will become illegal for American businesses to either manufacture or import the old-style bulbs.
Possible alternatives to the old-style bulbs are halogen bulbs, compact fluorescent bulbs (CFL), LED bulbs and high efficiency incandescents - all are more energy efficient, but also more expensive.

Canada doing similarly.
My desk lamp is CFL and costs $8.00 a bulb inc. tax. Packaging says it will last 9 years. My first lasted one year, the last one year and 8 months.
A bulb for an older lamp would cost me $0.50 and last a couple of years at least.
Costs are high and savings in energy costs are low.
I also have to pay $0.05 each in a re-cycling fee for the old style but I know of nowhere that re-cycles them and they end up in the bin as usual.

Dunno where the UK etc. are with this but here it seems just to be more expensive in every aspect.

I have stocked up on old bulb types.

500N
15th Dec 2013, 20:34
We moved in Aus a few years ago.

Some of the "new" bulbs haven't lasted as long as they said
but my current batch are better.

I think the whole thing was a bit of pandering to a cause that someone jumped on and pushed although in the long run it might be good for all.

Capetonian
15th Dec 2013, 20:38
The new bulbs are more economical if used for long periods. They are a complete PITA in places where you may only switch them on for a couple of minutes, cupboards, toilets etc. as they take about 30 seconds to reach full brightness.

ricardian
15th Dec 2013, 20:45
In the UK incandescent lamps are still available (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/9498092/Retailers-avoid-ban-on-traditional-light-bulbs.html) for use in workshops where fluorescent lamps have a stroboscopic effect on rotating machinery. I buy them for the house though - look for "rough service lamps"

500N
15th Dec 2013, 20:53
"They are a complete PITA in places where you may only switch them on for a couple of minutes, cupboards, toilets etc. as they take about 30 seconds to reach full brightness."

Agree, that really pisses me off as i don't have really good eyesight
so like bright lights.

As a result, instead of using 13 watt where I had 60 watt, I went and
bumped all my new globes well up to the max you could buy.

I have a box of 23W and that's what I use except for outside where
I just want a low light on that is left on for a while, then it's 13W.

Blues&twos
15th Dec 2013, 20:54
Yes, I get the rough service lamps for work, but they are effectively the same (albeit made with more robust filaments etc) as the domestic incandescant lamps. They are available from a number of well know online electrical retailers such as RS. They are a bit more expensive than the domestic equivalents, though.

Edited to say that I absolutely agree with you 500N, I had a serious eye injury 2 years ago and have the same problem with dim lights. I loathe the slow startup bulbs with a passion.

TomJoad
15th Dec 2013, 20:56
meadowrun,


The UK is a few years down the road with this nonsense thanks to the muppets in the EU. I'm all for energy saving technology replacing inefficient technology but only when the replacement is fit for purpose. CFC lamps are nowhere near as good as incandescent lamps when it comes to the quality of their light. I can no longer read in the evening by the ceiling lights alone and have had to install additional table, floor lamps etc. :ugh:

Domestic LED lamps are now making a presence in the UK market and they do look a bit more promising than CFC. My advice is stock up on the incandescent lamps while you can. We can still buy them here if you know where to look - brown paper bag under the counter, makes you feel as though you are doing something well dodgy:E

Dushan
15th Dec 2013, 20:59
I've been stocking up for a while now. I have about 1,000 stashed away. There is nothing like a natural, warm, glow of hot tungsten.

VP959
15th Dec 2013, 21:04
CFLs vary enormously in warm up time and reliability. We have still got a couple of Phillips 75W equivalent CFLs bought when we still lived in Cornwall (so pre-1992) that work as well as they ever did (although they are slow to warm up).

I've had some newer CFLs fail in less than a year, too, though, but they have generally been those with the fastest warm up time. The best compromise ones we have are those with the spiral tube. We've not had one fail (yet......) after maybe three years of regular use and they warm up to full brightness within a couple of seconds at most

pigboat
15th Dec 2013, 21:07
Hope you all have HAZMAT suits available for cleaning up a broken bulb. :p

Cleaning up a broken CFL. (http://www2.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl#instructions)

BenThere
15th Dec 2013, 21:08
I bought cases of incands, probably enough to last the rest of my life.

A few weeks ago, my local Home Depot had a special on the new Cree LED 75 watt replacement bulb, so I bought a couple and put them in the chandelier that hangs over our kitchen island, the most used light fixture in the house. The results are spectacularly better than CFLs and maybe even better than incands. Supposedly, they won't be needing replacement for 20 years, and they consume 13 watts,

500N
15th Dec 2013, 21:30
"Hope you all have HAZMAT suits available for cleaning up a broken bulb. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif"

I have a Chinese safety suit that consists of:-

Thongs / Flip Flops, shorts and a broom / dust pan and brush.

Is that good enough ?

:O

OFSO
15th Dec 2013, 21:59
The incandescent and mini-neon bulbs have had their day. I have started retrofitting my house with LEDs in wattages from 1 watt to 7 watt. They give VERY bright light and burn almost cold to the touch. You can get them in various lights from actinic blue to soft yellow. And they cost €9.95 for a twin pack. Even that well known luddite Mrs OFSO prefers them.

What's not to like with LED's ? Why the craze for the old incandescent bulbs ?

Keef
15th Dec 2013, 22:06
I laid in a supply of incandescents, having had problems with CFLs being slow to light up, failing often, and being expensive.

Then LEDs came along - more efficient than CFLs, and last a very long time. There are some applications where they don't quite work out yet, but I suspect it won't be long.

The filament bulbs in the church are up at ceiling level (about 40 feet up) and need a tower to reach them. It meant waiting till several had blown and it was getting dull before we'd hire the man with the tower to change them. Meanwhile, 150 watt filaments are no longer available, so it's still dull after he's replaced them.

We have a project on the way to replace them all with "industrial quality" LEDs - expected MTBF of 100,000 hours. If I got my numbers right, that means they are good for about 200 years. That'll do!

radeng
15th Dec 2013, 22:28
Except that so much of the LED lighting produces horrendous radio noise.

All those responsible for producing and using devices that raise the radio noise floor should be summarily executed - or sent to North Korea to live - but probably not for long.

vulcanised
15th Dec 2013, 22:28
What's wrong with good old fashioned fluorescent tubes?

Apart from consumption.

radeng
15th Dec 2013, 22:36
They aren't that so inefficient.

But dickheads from Brussels fail to realise that the heat from incandescents helps heat the house.

But since when the EC have any technically competent personnel? I know of people there making technical decisions on radiocommunications who have a degree in political economy - and no technical qualification!

Capetonian
15th Dec 2013, 22:41
What's wrong with good old fashioned fluorescent tubes?
Very harsh and unpleasant lighting, flickering, difficult to dispose of and handle, and fairly limited life especially if swiched on and off frequently. Quite suitable for office and industrial premises but not for domestic use.

Dushan
15th Dec 2013, 22:50
What's not to like with LED's ? Why the craze for the old incandescent bulbs ?


There is a lot to not like about LEDs. They give a ghastly, arctic whit light that is impossible to focus properly. They also do not project the light well since the actual light source is two dimensional (the flat little LED) unlike a tungsten filament that is three-dimensional and thus can sit inside the parabolic reflector at the exact spot where the focus is best achieved. LEDs are great for control panels, pixel boards and signs, but not so much for illumination. As others have mentioned there is the issue of creating all kinds of radio interference, as if there isn't enough already.

The craze for incadescents is due to the warm, natural light that hot tungsten gives off. Also all of the above, in reverse, from the LEDs. The industrial grade 100w bulbs are actually 130w consumption with a thicker filament which assures longer life span as well as slightly warmer light. Win/win.

Dushan
15th Dec 2013, 22:56
What's wrong with good old fashioned fluorescent tubes?

Apart from consumption.


One good Christmas turkey dinner in the oven for 8 hours, assorted other dishes, cakes and 4 loads of dish washing uses more power in one day than your lightbulbs do in a year.

I don't see how lightbulb consumption is a factor in one's life.

Keef
15th Dec 2013, 23:01
The LEDs I have were available in a variety of colour temperatures. Yes, there are harsh bluish-white ones around, but there are also warm-white and daylight-white.

The 10 watt one in my study looks and performs exactly like the 100 watt tungsten I used to have in there. It has a "frosted" finish, which takes care of any 2D-ness of the light source. It's a lot more satisfactory than the ghastly CFL thing that I had in there (briefly).

Tarq57
15th Dec 2013, 23:02
Very harsh and unpleasant lighting, flickering, difficult to dispose of and handle, and fairly limited life especially if swiched on and off frequently. Quite suitable for office and industrial premises but not for domestic use.
I find the same true of CFL's. The so-called "long-life" bulbs often don't last long.

There are no recycling options; it's in with the rest of the rubbish.

The quality of light is often poor, and for quite a time before they finally die the light level deteriorates.

I'm not a fan of the LED's I've experienced (so far) either. The quality of the light seems harsh; dazzling but rather "thin", not good for actual illumination. OK for things like security lamps, nav lights etc, but horrid to read by.

Gertrude the Wombat
15th Dec 2013, 23:07
the heat from incandescents helps heat the house
Sort-of.

(1) It's the ceiling that gets heated, and that's not where the people are.

(2) You're using electricity to heat, which is very much less efficient that the gas you would otherwise use.

(3) You're wasting that heat completely during how ever many months of the year you don't have any heating switched on.

Not really a very good source of heating, is it?

G-CPTN
15th Dec 2013, 23:18
I have been impressed by the 'efficiency' of (portable) LED lamps now being used by utility companies when they are required to dig holes at night.
A compact unit emits an amazing amount of light that illuminates the scene effectively.

I've not yet encountered LEDs in domestic environments, but I've acquired a few small ones that I carry in my car for emergencies.

Dushan
15th Dec 2013, 23:22
Sort-of.

(1) It's the ceiling that gets heated, and that's not where the people are.

Not all light fixtures are on the ceiling. A lot of lights are table lamps, floor lamps. You get the drift...

(2) You're using electricity to heat, which is very much less efficient that the gas you would otherwise use.
But it is in addition to the light they they produce, so it is an added bonus, not primary reason.

(3) You're wasting that heat completely during how ever many months of the year you don't have any heating switched on.
Maybe you don't have the heating switched on in the marginal months because you get enough heat from the lights:ok:

Not really a very good source of heating, is it?

Not as primary source of heat, but as an auxiliary.

radeng
15th Dec 2013, 23:24
But the heating is secondary advantage. How much energy does it COST to produce the LEDs or CFLs or whatever? Hard to get figures but we know that producing a square metre of semiconductor base material takes a hell of a lot power. That's done with dirty coal fired power stations - but they are in China, so it doesn't matter. Then there's disposal, and the LEDs have nasty chemicals, although how long it takes for them to leach out is another matter although doubtless a very long time. More of a problem for CFLs and mercury.

And the radio spectrum pollution.......

All the green moves could not have come at worse time in terms of the economic crisis - nobody goes bankrupt in the long term, but the costs of the rush to 'green' power may yet do it short term. Because there was the vacillation on building new nuclear plants and the fallacious idea that wind and solar could supply all our needs, it seems that there's a good chance the lights will be going out in the UK in a couple of years in winter. Meantime, we have HS2 and the electrification of the former GW railway lines to Bristol and Swansea and the electrification of the Midland mainline - but where's the electricity coming from? Those electrification schemes arguably require a 2 or 3 or maybe more GW of generation capacity - at a time we are taking coal fired stations out of commission because idiot politicians signed up to an agreement without figuring out the consequences! (Except maybe the VAT income from 'alternative' energy sources capital investment....)

I would still like to see 'smart' meters and those who voted for all this 'green' stuff to be the first to lose their power when we run out of electricity..........

onetrack
16th Dec 2013, 00:15
You incandescent Luddites need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
LED's and all the new ranges of energy-saving globes are a massive saving on power requirements for the average house.
The LED's last 100,000 hrs. My little LED flashlights light up the dark like searchlights, and weigh virtually nothing.
My house power bill is now around $300 annually, thanks to solar-panel-generated power and energy-saving bulbs.
I guess you lot are still wary about all this electrickery stuff? - and also keep large stocks of pitch, candles, oil lights, and kerosene on hand, because this electrickery stuff is just a flash in the pan?? :rolleyes:
Now, don't get me started on them dangerous flying machines! Remember, if man was meant to fly, God would have given him wings! :eek:

rh200
16th Dec 2013, 00:21
CFL's are [email protected], I have had them since phillips first started doing them. Still have a couple of originals, though mostly on my second or third round.

I still have one incandesent in the bathroom, stuff knows how old it is.

I have a couple of LED's, which seem great, though have had one die already, hopefully its and outlier. I won't be getting the spawned from hell CFL's any more.

500N
16th Dec 2013, 00:27
onetrack

"I guess you lot are still wary about all this electrickery stuff? - and also keep large stocks of pitch, candles, oil lights, and kerosene on hand, because this electrickery stuff is just a flash in the pan??"

No, I now have Solar lights that I use if power goes out.

They also get used when hunting. No batteries !!!

alisoncc
16th Dec 2013, 00:27
But if you really want to save electricity here is a really good tip, put a plug in every socket to prevent the leccy from leaking out.

Do that and you'll put the whole health supplement industry out of business. All their "free radicals and anti-oxidants" come from loose electrons being disgorged from electricity outlets not being capped. Also happens when people pull plugs out without switching off first.

alisoncc
16th Dec 2013, 00:32
No, I now have Solar lights that I use if power goes out. They also get used when hunting. No batteries !!!

Bought one of those off Ebay - a solar powered torch. Works brilliantly in bright sunlight, not so good when it's dark though.

mikedreamer787
16th Dec 2013, 00:35
Modern day lights are crap. Sure they save money
on lecky bills but the difference is made up having
to buy more bloody lights when they start conking
out after only 12 months or so.

Besides, the tree huggers like 'em which is another
psychological turn off.

I equate these LEDs and CFLs and whatever with
Jap made cars - economic and efficient but aren't
built to last like they were back in the 60s.


sQ7MqfWqAdQ

500N
16th Dec 2013, 00:43
alison

"Bought one of those off Ebay - a solar powered torch. Works brilliantly in bright sunlight, not so good when it's dark though."

??????????

LOL

I did some serious research and found some that had great batteries
and lasted ages, almost the whole night which was great.
They are all still going strong.

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 00:44
You incandescent Luddites need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
LED's and all the new ranges of energy-saving globes are a massive saving on power requirements for the average house.
The LED's last 100,000 hrs. My little LED flashlights light up the dark like searchlights, and weigh virtually nothing.

Who cares how much they weigh. I am not sending them to the moon. I am installing them in my house.


My house power bill is now around $300 annually, thanks to solar-panel-generated power and energy-saving bulbs.

How much was it before you invested thousands in solar and LED technology.? How long before it pays off?


I guess you lot are still wary about all this electrickery stuff? - and also keep large stocks of pitch, candles, oil lights, and kerosene on hand, because this electrickery stuff is just a flash in the pan?? :rolleyes:
Now, don't get me started on them dangerous flying machines! Remember, if man was meant to fly, God would have given him wings! :eek:

As I said before, if the cost of electricity to light your house is a major factor in your lifestyle...

Worrals in the wilds
16th Dec 2013, 00:52
I loathe all types of fluros but find the halogens are decent and pleasant to read by, which IMO is more than can be said for the other substitutes.

Interesting about the rough work lamps, thanks for the tip. :8

pigboat
16th Dec 2013, 01:11
We have a lot of recessed lighting - so-called pot lights that use incandescent floods - around the house. The instructions on all the LED's I've ever seen say they should not be used in recessed lighting, even though they are the same shape as an incandescent flood light. Wassup with that?

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 01:23
Wassup with that?

It's the cheap Chinese electronics in them that can overheat and catch fire, but hey, they save you oodles of money, so no big deal.

VFD
16th Dec 2013, 03:00
We have a lot of recessed lighting - so-called pot lights that use incandescent floods - around the house. The instructions on all the LED's I've ever seen say they should not be used in recessed lighting, even though they are the same shape as an incandescent flood light. Wassup with that? I replaced 10 of the 50watt R20 bulbs that are in recessed fixtures around the eves of my house with 7watt LED's in the same shape. I can tell you that they run a heck of a lot cooler than the incandescent bulbs and to the touch do not feel to have any other particular additional heat than the surroundings. That has been at least 6yrs ago now, they run off a photocell from dark to light everyday. I have not had a failure yet. The incandescent bulbs lasted 30-60 days.


The biggest issue with LED's at this point is that they are trying to devise the best way to replace the incandescent bulb, I am afraid that the ultimate solution will end up being fixtures that are designed for LED technology instead of putting the LED's into an incandescent fixture.


VFD

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 03:29
The actual light emitting diode may last 50 years but the chep electronic transformer that converts 115VAC to 12VDC will die a lot sooner.

I just picked a PAR20 from the garbage in he building and opened it up. The LEDs are fine the transformer is gone. $30 in the garbage a long time before the promised end of life.

james ozzie
16th Dec 2013, 06:31
It is surprising to read some of the views here - most of the comments seem to show a great reluctance to change. I have made every effort to reduce power bills (through solar water heating and photovoltaics) but have also changed over to LEDs in a big way. The objections on colour, size & shape simply don't hold - they can be bought in all colours and base adaptors. I am highly satisfied with my LEDs, reducing 500W of installed halogen lighting to approx. 100W of LED lighting - 80% power reduction for lighting.

But you MUST only buy decent brands if you want to get the life. The claimed tens of 1,000s of hours is true for the light emitting diode junction but unfortunately there are control electronics which fail much sooner, especially if junk. I use Osram & Philips only.

Also be careful on dimmed circuits - they need to be dimmable types and mixing brands can give different dim downs. They can also stutter a bit at very low power levels but I found I could set the dimmer low point for a satisfactory result.

Enjoy and move with the times, folks!

ExSp33db1rd
16th Dec 2013, 06:51
I have about 1,000 stashed away.

So that's why I can't buy anymore !

Enjoy and move with the times, folks!

Why ? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

unstable load
16th Dec 2013, 07:18
I find that Floozie tubes and CFL's give me sore eyes and a headache, thus when the local Council did a house to house giving CFL's away in exchange for incandescents, they got sent packing. Then LED's arrived and a few have been swapped out in the lounge and study, but Madame won't have it anywhere else in the house.

Fortunately, incandescents are freely available for now.

cattletruck
16th Dec 2013, 08:45
Spare incandescent lights - I've got my eye on the ones flashing outside the local pizzaria and fish-n-chip shop :E.

mad_jock
16th Dec 2013, 09:04
If you are in the UK and want bulbs you can actually see with or you have a lava lamp thing going on....

Light bulbs, halogen lamps, spot lights and tubes by mail order in the UK (http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/)

This is where I get my 100w plus bulbs from. I go for the rough use as well. They are three times the price but I haven't had one go in years living in my flat.

Sallyann1234
16th Dec 2013, 10:14
We have gone straight from tungsten to led and very pleased with them. Just replaced outdoor security lights with led so will no longer need a ladder to change the bulbs. Have replaced the torches with led as well.

The heat from tungsten bulbs is largely wasted up at the ceiling, and counter productive in summer. I use heating where and when it's needed.

HyFlyer
16th Dec 2013, 11:04
There is an ultimate measure of this......

It's called 'The Market'.

If these new fangled bulbs were truly better and/or more practical and/or lasted long and/or used less energy to an extent that made them more economic....

then we have a perfectly simple system that would ensure that the current type of bulbs would become outmoded and disappear. Legislation is a sure sign that we are all being conned.

How many use burning pitch torches or gaslight as primary system....nobody....because the filament bulb was a better idea...and so people bought it.....

if genuinely the benefits offered were seen to be real and of VALUE, then the new bulbs would certainly be taken up without the such government intervention.

I know when I am being sold a line....and this is one.

In France...the move across was made a few years ago...and the result is really, seriously annoying,.... I am being made to pay significantly more for a crappy product I don't want....and not being allowed to buy the product that I do want......

...somebody is making out like a bandit in all this.....

500N
16th Dec 2013, 11:10
"Legislation is a sure sign that we are all being conned."

Exactly :D

" I know when I am being sold a line....and this is one."

+ 1

Someone had an agenda and pushed it, almost certainly
industry and / or the greens.

BenThere
16th Dec 2013, 11:26
My general rule of thumb is that if the Greens have taken a position on any issue, prudence will dictate the opposite position is a better idea.

Apply it wherever you wish, DDT, GMO, windmills, nuclear power, fracking, electric cars, ad nauseam, and in this instance incandescent light bulbs. The Green position will always do more damage than good if adopted.

Now, though, LEDs have supplanted CFLs (the Green darlings) in the marketplace, where making a logical and cost-effective case is gaining acceptance in the proper way. Their benefits seemingly justify their cost and people reach a logical conclusion to adopt them, rather than be forced by ideology toward non-logical or cost-ineffective economic behaviors.

I concede that many green ideas are good, but tend to force by government-mandated market distortions, counter to efficient allocation of resources, before their time has come by virtue of technology and available manufacturing processes.

Unsung are the countless millions of lives that have been sacrificed at the altar of Green angst, as in the cases of DDT and GMO.

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 11:37
Now, though, LEDs have supplanted CFLs (the Green darlings) in the marketplace, where making a logical and cost-effective case is gaining acceptance in the proper way. Their benefits seemingly justify their cost and people reach a logical conclusion to adopt them, rather than be forced by ideology toward non-logical or cost-ineffective economic behaviors.



Part of the "gaining acceptance" is the knowledge that the conventional product us being mandated out of the market and being guilt ridden into accepting the new product. I wonder how much acceptance there woul be if the old product was untouched by legislation and the new product was simply on the shelves, at fifty times the cost, without the "green" label.

Windy Militant
16th Dec 2013, 11:48
Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that the Chinese now control most of the worlds Wolfram. So maybe it's better to use the Tungsten we do have available for ooh I dunno alloys for turbine blades or sabot rounds rather than Light bulbs say? ;)

500N
16th Dec 2013, 11:51
"and being guilt ridden into accepting the new product."

Ha, only those who are that way inclined would feel guilty not changing.

For many others we don't really care.

BenThere
16th Dec 2013, 11:53
I can and did lay up a store of incandescent bulbs upon learning they would soon become unavailable.

The LED case being made, though, is that their purported long life and lower energy cost make them economically effective, without the mercury contamination and disposal issues the Greens chose to ignore while forcing CFLs on the marketplace and subsidizing them with taxpayer-funded rebates.

The payback on an LED at $10 versus an incandescent at $1, given an 80% reduction in electricity consumption and a tenfold life extension of the bulb, with the absence of subsidies, can be calculated and acted upon by a judicious consumer with a free choice. My case is that's how the free market works, and should work.

defizr
16th Dec 2013, 12:10
I suffer from S.A.D and use 45w CFLs. They come on straight away and have a daylight colour temperature rather than 'warm white' It's like sitting on the beach on a sunny day. They are a bit expensive but worth every penny.

http://www.nulight.co.uk/

PS I have nothing to do with Nulight apart from being a customer.

ExXB
16th Dec 2013, 13:35
Modern LEDs address the issues reported here with CFLs. They are more expensive to buy, but are a fraction of the cost to use. Prices are dropping dramatically as well.

Ostriches are free to continue using those old technology bulbs as long as they have a supply, but they are throwing money away. Their loss.

cattletruck
16th Dec 2013, 13:52
I saw a set of LED lights for $8 but noticed they didn't plug into the standard bayonet socket. I found out later that they needed a transformer which cost $30. This raises some questions.

1. Can you get LED lights that plug straight into the standard bayonet socket?

2. Seeing the ones I saw operated at 12V, do you need a licensed electrician to install them?

3. Seeing most houses have a separate wiring circuit for lights, can you fit a single transformer in the roof and change over to LED lights in one easy step?

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 14:01
Modern LEDs address the issues reported here with CFLs. They are more expensive to buy, but are a fraction of the cost to use. Prices are dropping dramatically as well.

Ostriches are free to continue using those old technology bulbs as long as they have a supply, but they are throwing money away. Their loss.

Why should the ability to have the supply be mandated by the government. If the new ones are so good, efficient, low cost, etc. why do we have to mad ate their use? Whose business is it if I chose to throw money away?

airship
16th Dec 2013, 14:06
Most of the subject already covered here (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/528954-who-invented-worlds-longest-lasting-lightbulb-one-drapes.html) previously quite recently too.

Whatever, one has to ask oneself if ca. 2013 we have yet another lightbulb "cartel" operating here in the EU and USA at least. I mean, why "BAN" all these supposedly inefficient lightbulbs by government legislation or decree (presumably) supported and influenced by individual mfrs or "industry" lobbyists? In a "free market", the consumer would decide what lightbulb to buy...? :confused:

I don't know about any of you, but I've found a huge and important decline in "advertising standards" over the past few years, whether on TV, the internet or the press generally. Once upon a time, "they" would protect the ignorant public from these. Nowadays, any 2-bit mfr of consumer appliances (including lightbulbs) can and does get away with claiming that their product will last 20,000 hours or whatever. With or without any small-print, or proof.

They're all "in bed" together, leaving most of us to our own wits and devices. Whilst "we" pay all their salaries, directly or indirectly... :zzz:

defizr
16th Dec 2013, 14:24
1. Can you get LED lights that plug straight into the standard bayonet socket?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/LED-Bulbs-B22-Light/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A248790031%2Cp_n_feature_three_browse-bin%3A250329031

led bayonet | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=bc22+led&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR7.TRC1.A0.X+led+bayonet&_nkw=+led+bayonet&_sacat=0)

defizr
16th Dec 2013, 14:30
Incandescent lightbulbs lose approximately 90% of their energy as heat. The rest is turned into light. That seems to qualify as 'inefficient' to me.

Incandescent lightbulbs generate ~ 15 lumens per watt
CFL lightbulbs generate ~ 60-100 lumens per watt.

OFSO
16th Dec 2013, 14:42
1. Can you get LED lights that plug straight into the standard bayonet socket?

2. Seeing the ones I saw operated at 12V, do you need a licensed electrician to install them?

3. Seeing most houses have a separate wiring circuit for lights, can you fit a single transformer in the roof and change over to LED lights in one easy step?


1) Yes you can and you can buy bayonette, screw fitting, GU10, and every other damn fitting. At least in LeRoy and Castorama in France. There is not a base socket made that there isn't a LED lamp for. (Sorry, bad grammar).

2) No, if you can use a wire stripper and screwdriver. But just buy mains LEDs.

3) No, and it's a pity. If you could you could put a couple of truck batteries up there and run 'em off solar, they use so little power. Sadly every house I have ever owned did NOT have a separate lighting circuit.

ExXB
16th Dec 2013, 14:55
Why should the ability to have the supply be mandated by the government. If the new ones are so good, efficient, low cost, etc. why do we have to mad ate their use? Whose business is it if I chose to throw money away?

You elected them, if you don't like what they do - turf them out.

Regardless the manufacture of old bulbs will slowly dwindle and disappear. They cannot compete with the new LEDs and their market will be just a few old curmudgeons who have more money than cents.

BenThere
16th Dec 2013, 15:03
You elected them, if you don't like what they do - turf them out.


A big part of the problem, in the US anyway, is that these mandates come from agencies of the government, mostly the Environmental Protection Agency, that are far removed from the electorate. They issue dictates such the incandescent light bulb ban without the need for legislation by elected representatives, and there is no recourse.

EPA has the entire country mapped out with a database of 'endangered' species, such as the Spotted Madison County grass newt, which no one has ever seen or heard of, and they can stop any enterprise in its tracks by invoking protection of said species. They can and do this anywhere and everywhere. No vote required or legislator held accountable.

dazdaz1
16th Dec 2013, 15:09
Actually (UK) one will still be able to buy the old 40/60/100w bulbs for use in lizard/snake/turtle tanks. These are now/will be classified as 'heating elements' I'm sure the local pet shop will be selling them for years to come.

Daz

airship
16th Dec 2013, 15:11
defizr wrote: Incandescent lightbulbs lose approximately 90% of their energy as heat. The rest is turned into light. That seems to qualify as 'inefficient' to me. Does that also apply to human-beings (in various percentages) at least so far as the energy supplied to our own brains is concerned (in comparison to the total energy our bodies produce on average), having personally consumed a home-cooked chicken-curry, also some cucumber with chilli, and 300ml of Scotch (not home-made) over the past 48H...?! :ok:

defizr
16th Dec 2013, 15:42
Does that also apply to human-beings (in various percentages) at least so far as the energy supplied to our own brains is concerned (in comparison to the total energy our bodies produce on average), having personally consumed a home-cooked chicken-curry, also some cucumber with chilli, and 300ml of Scotch (not home-made) over the past 48H...?!

As long as no-one expects you to illuminate the living room I don't think it really matters...

MG23
16th Dec 2013, 15:48
You elected them, if you don't like what they do - turf them out.

Yeah, right, give me a minute and I'll just go and do that.

Most nations these days have a choice between two parties who are funded by the same people and offer minor choices between insignificant policies. Voting can't change anything that matters.

BenThere
16th Dec 2013, 15:50
Voting can't change anything that matters.

Yes, we can.

AtomKraft
16th Dec 2013, 17:26
My supply of 200w bulbs has run out.

Does anyone know where I can get some more in UK bayonet fit?

I keep them to annoy greens, and to light my study up nice and brightly.:ok:

500N
16th Dec 2013, 17:30
"Most nations these days have a choice between two parties who are funded by the same people and offer minor choices between insignificant policies. Voting can't change anything that matters."

We just did in Aus and partly over Green policies like Carbon Tax,
Asylum Seekers etc.

Turfed Labor right out the door, it was almost a rout.

mad_jock
16th Dec 2013, 17:35
atom

Bulb Finder ? Light bulbs, LED bulbs, halogen lamps, spot lights and tubes (http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/bulbfinder/?w=101-250&v=220-250&c=Bayonet&f=Any&cat=1)

BenThere
16th Dec 2013, 17:40
I keep them to annoy greens

Another way to annoy lefties/Greens is to light your cigar with phony $5 bills you made on your copier. Trust me, they can't stand it.

You need a lighter or a candle to ignite the paper. Candles are best.

OFSO
16th Dec 2013, 18:25
I took this picture of my living room a couple of minutes ago. Four lights (one just out of sight on my left, one in the corner, two either side of the door).

A mixture of 60watt incandescent bulb put there for the photo, 11 watt mini neon ECU bulb, and 7 watt LED. And a fifth reflected in the door.

Can anyone tell which is which ?

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/ROBIN_100/Lights_zpsec511d43.jpg

AtomKraft
16th Dec 2013, 18:51
Thanks OFSO. :ok:

I'll order a dozen.

MG23
16th Dec 2013, 18:57
Yes, we can.

I remember people saying the Tories were going to save Britain after the election threw Labour out.

How'd that turn out?

bcgallacher
16th Dec 2013, 19:09
I have just finished replacing all my dining room and lounge lighting with LED lamps -all simply wired into the existing system. The flush lights came with built in transformer/rectifiers and the central unit uses lamps that look like an incandescent bulb but are in fact LED. The total power consumption of the eleven lights is little more than one of the previous incandescent lamps. When the incandescent lighting was phased out I was a little pissed off but on reflection it seemed to be costing me a fortune as the life of the lamps seemed to be getting shorter.

G-CPTN
16th Dec 2013, 19:58
When people quote the consumption of LEDs are they including the transformers?

mixture
16th Dec 2013, 20:05
A mixture of 60watt incandescent bulb put there for the photo, 11 watt mini neon ECU bulb, and 7 watt LED ... can anyone tell...


Incandescent will probably be the one on the right hand side of the sofa.

LED & ECU will probably be the two on the left of the sofa, I would guess the LED being the one furthest away from the sofa.

Oh, and I'm guessing you live in some sort of new-build apartment. :E

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 20:27
OFSO, too white and artificial…

Look at the warm glow of tungsten…


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dushan_divjak/a008ab15-d2ce-404e-a210-c0d3d658d632_zps5d4578fb.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dushan_divjak/dbd8e8bc-3873-49ed-9161-b86986046561_zps6a834c96.jpg

500N
16th Dec 2013, 20:32
Dushan

That reminds me of my Grand parents flat in Bournemouth :ok:

Flash2001
16th Dec 2013, 20:41
I had a look at the current waveform of a few CFs a while ago. While each load is small by itself, enough by the same manufacturer on a power line might sum to damage a transformer particularly as more and more of the world's electrons are marching to work each day through silicon. I don't have any line driven LEDs yet but the light from my LED flashlight will pull your eyeballs out of their sockets.

After an excellent landing...

mixture
16th Dec 2013, 21:04
P.S. photos to be used in comparisons must be taken on the same camera with the exact same settings, otherwise they are near to useless

Not really. All you need to do is pay attention to white balance (which you can mess around with in post anyway).

OFSO
16th Dec 2013, 21:04
Oh, and I'm guessing you live in some sort of new-build apartment.

No, it's a 1982 villa Just the usual for round here, lots of living rooms, bedrooms etc., two kitchens four bathrooms, indoor pool, servants quarters. All at 600' ASL.

Ants too.

So here's the lighting - surprise !

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/ROBIN_100/LightsModified_zps15b92fbe.jpg

The LED bulbs either side of the door throw a lot of light upward. With white ceilings you get a good diffuse bounce. Hombre Dushan, just checked photo against actual colours, reality is it is a lot more yellow than the photo shows.

OFSO
16th Dec 2013, 21:11
When people quote the consumption of LEDs are they including the transformers?

Not if there aren't any transformers.

BenThere
16th Dec 2013, 21:14
How'd that turn out?

MG23,

Thank God, Great Britain was saved.

Lone_Ranger,

While what you say may be true, I've always found CFLs harsh, while traditional tungsten bulbs and the new LEDs are warm. I know there are specialized florescent lights that more closely replicate natural sunlight, but that's not what you get in the standard CFL lightbulb.

Gazing at the newly bought Cree LED now hanging over our kitchen island a few meters from where I sit typing, I have to say it's the most pleasant light we have in the whole house. And it is instantly bright when the switch is turned on, unlike the CFL it replaced.

G-CPTN
16th Dec 2013, 21:16
Not if there aren't any transformers.
Then how do they reduce the voltage?

OFSO
16th Dec 2013, 21:22
Good question. Somewhere in the base of the lightbulb is a little electronic dingus that just picks out the electrons the lamp needs...... kind of a Maxwell's Demon but for electricity, not water or gas.

radeng
16th Dec 2013, 21:33
No body has yet refuted the assertion that there's almost certainly more energy from dirty Chinese coal fired power stations required to make the LED lights and safely dispose of them afterwards such that Arsenic doesn't leach into the water table than they ever save......

mixture
16th Dec 2013, 21:41
lots of living rooms, bedrooms etc., two kitchens four bathrooms, indoor pool, servants quarters.....

.... and a hideous suspended ceiling to boot with a wet sprinkler system ? :cool:

Anyway, enough about the state of your interior decor....(guess I was never invited to your Turkish birthday dinner anyway ! )

So here's the lighting - surprise !

Well it wasn't a fair challenge anyway since we were expected to judge one light through its reflection. You could have at least made an effort and moved the light for the purposes of the photo... but you wouldn't want do your back in at your age ! :p

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 21:53
P.S. photos to be used in comparisons must be taken on the same camera with the exact same settings, otherwise they are near to useless

Agree. Chances are tha OFSO's picture used an automatic white balance that made the picture whiter than perceived by the eye, while I used a daylight setting which emphasized the yellow glow of the lights.

As for the natural/daylight argument, what I mean by "natural" is akin to saying "organic". I don't want my night light to emulate daylight as it cannot since daylight comes for one source, through the window. I want night lights to be produced using a method similar to fire, just like I don't want fireplace to be electric or gas fired but with real logs.

OFSO
16th Dec 2013, 21:55
Quite right ! Here's the same room with my tablet on another setting (far more yellow than it appears to my eye:

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/ROBIN_100/MellowYellow_zps0fc4beba.jpg

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 22:26
Here is the guts of the PAR20 LED light. As I said earlier I picked it out of the garbage because someone threw it out. It is not working, RXCEPT, that the 3 little LEDs are working fine when you apply 9VDC to them. What is not working is the transformer. So again, the trick is in the play of the words. The LEDs may last a million hours but the supporting electronic will die probably sooner than my 50 cent lightbulb.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dushan_divjak/IMG_2333_zpsb415db3f.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dushan_divjak/IMG_2342_zps1940b911.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dushan_divjak/IMG_2343_zps81ba42b7.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dushan_divjak/IMG_2344_zps9cf6f9cb.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dushan_divjak/IMG_2345_zps4425241c.jpg

Flash2001
16th Dec 2013, 22:29
HC

We get a separate charge on our bills for I^2*R losses on lines and transformers. It's in the form of a multiplier.

After an excellent landing etc...

james ozzie
16th Dec 2013, 23:02
At risk of repeating: the colour appearance of both CFL and LED lamps is controlled by reading the label on the box; common examples are "Cool white" and "Warm white".

LED lamps come with bases to suit all commonly used types.

There is plenty of information on the Osram website, as on many others.

LED retrofit lamps | Products | OSRAM (http://www.osram.com.au/osram_au/products/lamps/led-retrofit-lamps/index.jsp)

Dushan
16th Dec 2013, 23:14
At risk of repeating: the colour appearance of both CFL and LED lamps is controlled by reading the label on the box; common examples are "Cool white" and "Warm white".



Except that in order to achieve that there is some kind of filter introduced because the light in itself is ghastly white. Tungsten, OTOH, produces light by glowing hot which is natural phenomenon.

Keef
17th Dec 2013, 00:56
It looks like a switch-mode power supply to me. They aren't particularly lossy, although cheap ones are very antisocial in what they do to the RF spectrum.

Given that it has been decreed that filament bulbs are to become obsolete, the choice is between CFL and LED. I choose LED - less power used than CFL, instant-on, more acceptable colour, and a nominal lifetime of 100,000 hours (for decent quality ones).

crippen
17th Dec 2013, 01:08
Did we have all this fuss when we changed over from gas lighting way back?????:E

Dushan
17th Dec 2013, 01:15
Did we have all this fuss when we changed over from gas lighting way back?????:E

No we didn't, but it wasn't mandated. The switch was made because it was truly better and safer technology. The marketplace took care of it not the bureaucrats.

Dushan
17th Dec 2013, 01:26
Dushan

Thanks for the photos of mains led lamp electronics board.

The large orange capacitor to the left looks suitable for use as a reactive voltage dropper. This might be used to power the low-voltage electronic parts.

The transformer is far too small to operate at 50Hz, I would guess that the electronic bits drive it with a high frequency, say 100kHz, and that it drops the rectified mains down to the required led voltage, probably operating as an smps to produce a current drive.

If you unwrap the tape around the transformer you will be able to see if it has laminations (50Hz) or a ferrite core (high frequency).

All very complex and difficult to recycle.

The transformer has a marking EPC-13-220V (strange I am in the 115VAC region, but that could be the maximum). The core is ferrite.

A few of other components on the board are marked
PJ1D9 B6S
PJ201S S100
EL357N C117
PJ206R RS1M
13003 HJ-E1D MKCOGN

SawMan
17th Dec 2013, 03:26
Will a Greenie please step forward and inhale deeply while I break a few CFL's under your nose? I'll reciprocate myself with some incandescents. Can you say "Minimata"? I knew you could :ok: Worst for me is that I'm a radio nut, and all of the new-tech bulbs spew RF all over the spectrum and cannot be used near much of my radio equipment.

There is no free lunch. We're going to pay for each and every lumen in one way or another, and while inefficient electrically, there is a lot to be said for the true greenness of incandescent bulbs which aren't dangerous when broken, do not need electronics with their known manufacturing and disposal pollution issues, and cost less initially which is a boon to the poor of the world. The new stuff will be killing us for a lot longer than the old stuff did.

What's next, mandated mutton-tallow candles? Nothing bad or lost making, using, or disposing of those. You'll get used to the smell, and a few lives lost to fires is a small price to pay for a much greener world isn't it?

500N
17th Dec 2013, 03:29
Has anyone got the costings on the various type of bulbs from cradle to grave ?

It would be interesting to see what they are.

meadowrun
17th Dec 2013, 03:41
LED light bulbs: Comparison charts - Eartheasy.com Solutions for Sustainable Living (http://eartheasy.com/live_led_bulbs_comparison.html)

Still stocking up on incandescent as electricity rates here are very low as are bulb prices for the moment.

Tarq57
17th Dec 2013, 04:02
Did we have all this fuss when we changed over from gas lighting way back?????:EWish we had gas lights. That would be a step forward.

Deaf
17th Dec 2013, 04:36
SMPS can cope with a range of input voltages. With leds being current limited devices multiple leds in a bulb are normally in series so when the current is low more/wider pulses - when high less/narrower. This also means you can operate with less regulation on the input side = smaller cheaper capacitor cost

Rare to use a 50hz transformer due output regulation issues as leds vary output rapidly (think optocoupler or fiber optics)unlike incandescent which have a thermal mass damping. Think 25hz bulbs but worse.

Also often just inductor rather than transformer, as the whole thing is sealed it does not require input/output isolation the output is optical.

onetrack
17th Dec 2013, 06:20
Tarq57 - Still using the old pitch torches, and fires in caves down there, are we?? :) :ok: ... and I guess you're in the more advanced part of UnZud?? ;) :)

cattletruck
17th Dec 2013, 06:29
That's a lot of electronics to drive what is effectively a diode.

LEDs on their own generally operate at 3V continuous, but you can get much more intensity out of them by momentarily supplying a higher voltage of around 5-7V without damaging them. Hold them at that high voltage constantly and they will fizzle out permanently. So I guess there is a circuit in that LED light that drives the LEDs at a higher voltage at some duty cycle. This means that this circuit will also need a power supply too. It's getting way tooooo complex from the simple filament concept.

It would be easier methinks just to connect 80 3V LEDs in series for the +240v and another 80 for the -240V, along with one of those spike capacitors.

Dushan
17th Dec 2013, 15:51
So LED's use some unnatural process?, magic perhaps? and what difference would it be to the end user, if resulting colour was the result of a filter or not?, it would still be the colour you wanted.

Its fine that you prefer Tungsten bulbs Dush, really it is

Yes, silicone, and we all know that silicone is unnatural. Just ask Slasher

OFSO
17th Dec 2013, 18:01
some kind of filter introduced because the light in itself is ghastly white

Casting my brain back into the far past, I remember when VW first introduced LEDs for indicator lamps in cars - red and yellow LEDs were easy but the last lamp to remain an incandescent bulb was the high beam light as nobody could make a blue LED.

Until they found how to dope the LED casing.

OFSO
17th Dec 2013, 18:05
A comment from a friend in the power supply business. They have found two disadvantages to LED streetlights: one is that the spiders which spin their webs up there don't get crisped and fall off as they did with the old hot streetlamps. So the lamps get fouled up with nests. The other problem is snow and icing: obvious really.

Two years ago I could see from my terrace that a lot of sodium-yellow street lights down in Roses town had been replaced with bright white/blue LED lights. They have all gone now: back to sodium.

One exception: the football pitch night lighting, which is a brilliant blue/white.

Tankertrashnav
17th Dec 2013, 18:15
Dushan
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Right Wing
Age: 61
Posts: 177

I've been stocking up for a while now. I have about 1,000 stashed away.


Jeez, how long are you planning to live?!

meadowrun
17th Dec 2013, 18:21
No one expects the Grim Reaper. (apologies to Python (Monty))

G-CPTN
17th Dec 2013, 19:18
I believe that LED traffic-lights are susceptible to accumulation of snow and ice (http://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-product-design/energy-saving-led-traffic-lights-potentially-dangerous-in-snow-storms.html).

Anyone remember when traffic-lights were called robot-lights?

Loose rivets
17th Dec 2013, 20:59
Given we can just detect 6 photons, it is perhaps surprising to note that a one-hundred watt lightbulb spits out 100,000,000,000 of 'em . . . in a billionth of a second.*


I just thought you might like to know that.:rolleyes:





*Brian Clegg. 'Light Years'

OFSO
17th Dec 2013, 22:47
Anyone remember when traffic-lights were called robot-lights?

Aha, another Futurama fan ! When the aliens landed on Earth and saw their first traffic light......

Dushan
17th Dec 2013, 23:00
Dushan
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Right Wing
Age: 61
Posts: 177



Jeez, how long are you planning to live?!

Well, let's be optimistic and give me another 20 years. That gives me about 50 bulbs a year. I probably go through that many in a year. I do like a lot of lights and I do like them on, even during the day. I cannot stand the sight of an unlit light fixture.

radeng
17th Dec 2013, 23:09
Personally, I still feel all these anti-incandescent light people are failing in their appreciations of engineering and applications and most importantly, EMC. Plus, they continually ignore the total lifetime (cradle to grave) of energy requirements of alternative lighting technologies.

So easy when you are short sighted and concentrating on only one portion of the energy utilisation phase.....

Dushan
17th Dec 2013, 23:22
One unintended consequence of the mandated ban of incadescents is that the manufactures of LEDs and CFLs will have no incentive to improve their product. They will be guarded and assured by the fact that the consumer has nowhere else to go but to them to get the overpriced, overrated product. Thy will also have no incentive to mprove the ecological impact that the production of their product has.

I hope y'all feel good about your new toys.

meadowrun
3rd Jan 2014, 12:35
SLIMSTYLE BULB FEATURES



Long-lasting: Philips claims the bulb lasts 22.8 years.
Familiar: Despite the use of new LED technology, the bulb is a similar shape and size to a standard light bulb and fits current fittings.
Cuts energy costs: The company claims the bulb saves up to $136.13 in energy costs over its lifetime when compared with a 60 watt incandescent bulb.
Instantly on: There is no waiting for the light to get to its full brightness, like some current energy efficient light bulbs and no flickering either.
Dimmable: The bulb can be used with dimmer to provide a soft light.
Better quality light: The bulb produces white light similar to an incandescent bulb.

To be released in the US first at $10 each. That will likely be GBP 42.76 then when it arrives there.

And how do they know it will last 22.8 years?

G-CPTN
3rd Jan 2014, 12:54
Whilst I realise that 'fits standard sockets' ensures interchangeability, would it not be beneficial to revolutionise the design of fittings for domestic LEDs?

OFSO
3rd Jan 2014, 13:20
I was in a mega big DIY store this morning, they are dumping those ECO flourescent bulbs at very low prices as shelves fill up with LED's. They are double the price in Spain than what's being sold across the border in France, and not as bright as those being sold at nine pounds for two in Maplins UK. Glad we are all in the EU and such disparities don't exist. Er...

the manufactures of LEDs and CFLs will have no incentive to improve their product.

Cannot agree with that. Those same 30 watt cold LED bulbs - the max I could buy a year ago - are now being replaced by 50 watt LED bulbs currently on sale. Also burn cold.

At the moment here in Europe there seems to be a race to produce the brightest LED lamps in a variety of temperature colours for the lowest price. And I don't think we have seen the last of it.

Sunnyjohn
3rd Jan 2014, 18:05
The first LED spot I bought 18 months ago was a 60 watt equivalent. I have it in my desk lamp and the light is superb - I do a lot of close work with card modelling. It was, however, £21. The same lamp is now in a shop locally at £3.50. The real problem with LED's as I see it is that they are low voltage, which means that they have to have a transformer built in. I can foresee a time when houses will be supplied dual voltage, 12 volts for lighting and 240 volts for power. Incidentally, for those of you who still crave them, incandescent bulbs are readily available for use in the entertainment and theatre industry.

ExSp33db1rd
3rd Jan 2014, 21:09
And how do they know it will last 22.8 years?

The P.R. Dept. said so.

20,000 hrs (a nice round number) is 22.8 years

So what's the significance of 20,000 hrs. ?

( I know, it's the length of time a bulb will last !! )

Yeah! Right !

radeng
3rd Jan 2014, 21:54
What I want is that everybody wanting a ban on conventional light bulbs etc has to deal with the fact that when there is radio interference from the alternatives, it HAS to be cured at their expense to the satisfaction of the victim, plus everybody voting for no new power stations and closing coal fired ones HAS to have a smart meter. Then when we have insufficient generating capacity and power cuts, these people are turned off first and back on last. When their alternative energy sources prove more expensive, they pay more. If their solar panels cause radio interference - just pollution like sewage in a river - they should pay to fix it.

Regrettably, such people forget that when there is an economic problem, nobody goes bankrupt in the long term.

But then, I want Utopia - but as Carlyle (paraphrased) said "The world is full of men, mostly fools". Women are included......

Sunnyjohn
3rd Jan 2014, 22:52
The "transformer" is actually part of an smpsThanks h-c, I didn't know that. I assumed that the big white base below the lamp housed a transformer. I should have read Wiki - but I got you instead!

meadowrun
4th Jan 2014, 02:16
What is missing is the working conditions for which the figure was calculated, is it 20 years shelf life, or 20 years use 10 per cent of the time, or 20 years always on? The duty cycle condition is the most realistic because it includes start-up stresses.



If I remember correctly they quoted based on 2.5 hours use a day.

OFSO
4th Jan 2014, 09:12
Our 1 watt LED outside security lights stay on all the time. I believe it's turning 'em on and off that wears ' em out.

OFSO
4th Jan 2014, 10:21
I mentioned long electronic lives. When I was an apprentice in the GPO - 1966 - I was servicing amplifiers in Leicester GPO repeater station. I remember replacing a valve which had been in use since 1926. Never switched off, of course, and hence still happily glowing away. Changed "just in case".


the big white base below the lamp

I don't understand. The GU 10 LED bulbs I have bought don't have this: they fit in a standard "halogen" GU10 socket.

Blues&twos
4th Jan 2014, 13:56
Over Christmas we had a power cut, but a strange one wHere the voltage dropped to about a quarter of its normal level. All of our incandescent lamps stayed lit (albeit more dimly) whilst our energy efficient lamps just stopped working altogether. Admittedly not a frequent occurrence (!) but we were glad we had some light other than a hurricane lamp for the 24 hrs before the juice came back.

Sunnyjohn
4th Jan 2014, 15:09
Thanks, h-c. Just checked Dushan's piece and now I'm confused (I know, that's not difficult!) but surely that's a transformer in his bottom pic?

Dushan
4th Jan 2014, 15:12
Yes there is a transformer on the board. Henry can elaborate, but the core is ferite, not steel laminate.

OFSO
4th Jan 2014, 15:44
and left everyone strung in series across the opposite phase.

Most of the houses here (including mine) are on three-phase. Some of the faults have wierd symptoms.

They are coming up the street here, and replacing the old rotating-wheel electricity meters with new digital read-the-meter-from-a-passing car meters. So far, haven't done ours. The advance warning literature doesn't give me much confidence since a large proportion of it concerns "how to reconnect your power supply if it gets disconnected by the metering device." Since Spanish electricity is a "somethings thing" I'm not filled with joyous anticipation.

Sunnyjohn
4th Jan 2014, 15:48
Well, you live in Catalonia - what do you expect! It's a foreign country up there - I hear you are aiming to become independent. Anyway, we have no problem with our elaktricity except that it lights our lights with a Scottish accent (Iberdrola is owned by Scottish Power).

SawMan
4th Jan 2014, 18:07
In the US there is an incandescent alternative available in flame-shaped candelabra bulbs, and these can be had from 25 to 75 watt ratings in the common "A" base. These are not yet affected by the ban but if and when a visually appealing alternative comes to market, they probably will be banned too.Do be aware that they run hotter than the standard bulbs did as there is less surface area to the globe which dissipates much of the heat, therefore you should down-size the wattage if you use them in an enclosed fixture so as to not overheat it.

The future is in LED's and they are better, but at this time they are not as cheap as they will need to be to make their mandatory use truly worthwhile. It would have been far better for the governments to have let the markets decide, then the technology would advance at a faster rate so as to gain their share of the market. By removing competition you also remove the absolute necessity for progress.

Sallyann1234
4th Jan 2014, 19:43
(Iberdrola is owned by Scottish Power)

Er no, SunnyJohn. Quite the reverse.

Loose rivets
4th Jan 2014, 21:08
I know I've posted about my landlady's LEDs in the UK last summer. Looked but can't find my post. There were 8 or 10 of them and unlike the early ones didn't prick yer eyes out when you looked at them. Good general working lights that could be selected in varying numbers. She also had under cabinet lighting which I've always liked. Generally a very nice finishing touch to a newly restored kitchen.

There were 32 candle shape lights in the lounge of my Essex house. (open planned type place) I compromised with the small pointy things because those candle ones were produced in a short spell in the 50/60s Compton I think. Cost a bomb as they became scarce.

Others looked okay when dimmed, and I schemed one of those chips in that ramps up-down on-off by IR remote. The telly remote would work them. All okay. However, the advent of economy bulbs seemed to mean a total end to my setup - though not my problem anymore.

However, here in Texas, I have three ordinary looking bulbs that run cold-ish and will dim. They cost 10X the price of the rubbish they sell here as incandescent but it does mean I can put them into those small chandeliers that have the faux crystal shades without fear of them cracking.

My anglepoise replica beside me with a CFL is fine. Mostly just pointed at the wall to give back lighting to my otherwise dark room. It's so nice not to burn myself as I shove it this way and that.

The robust filament bulbs are called Farm Bulbs here. They also have a coating of rubbery stuff over the glass. It smoked when first turned on. The light is a bit red, but that's what happens when you under-run a filament. They have taken quite a few knocks on the garage floor.

Sunnyjohn
5th Jan 2014, 17:19
Apologies, and thank you SallyAnn - I stand corrected:
ScottishPower Ltd. is a vertically integrated energy company with its headquarters in Glasgow, Scotland. It was once a constituent of the FTSE 100 Index but in 2006 it became a subsidiary of the Spanish utility Iberdrola.

meadowrun
27th Jan 2014, 02:05
Many energy-efficient LED light bulbs failed before their advertised lifespan, tests have found.
Some did not even reach the EU’s new minimum of 6,000 hours which comes into force in March.
LED bulbs from Ikea and Technical Consumer Products (TCP) performed worst, according to Which?

The consumer watchdog and European partners tested five samples of 46 types of bulb. New EU regulations say that from March 1, 90 per cent of any batch of LED (light emitting diode) bulbs should last at least 6,000 hours.

The bulbs were switched on for 165 minutes, then switched off for 15 minutes, in a continuous cycle until they failed.

Five types of bulb, some costing more than £10, stopped working before 6,000 hours in the majority of samples tested.
Another five failed before 10,000 hours for the majority of samples tested, despite claiming lifespans of at least 25,000 hours. In total, 66 of the 230 samples failed before 10,000 hours, though all claimed to last at least 15,000. DM

Sunnyjohn
27th Jan 2014, 13:01
Go back, way back in time to the candle. This little miracle could be lit and snuffed at will, produced one whole candlepower of light, and could be carried about with you at will, to light your way from room to room.Tis true. Among other advantages, the candle helped to keep the population down by causing numerous deaths by fire, and as a result, helped to develop the Fire Brigade (my Daddy was a London Firefighter and he knew all about candles).

Capetonian
8th Sep 2014, 13:48
We have an outside light. It stopped working, obvious solution, new bulb. New (new EU type) bulb didn't work. Checked that in an indoor fitting, it worked. Repeated with another (new type) bulb, same result. Logical conclusion, no power supply to socket.

Tested power supply to socket, it's alive and well. Put in an old type tungsten bulb and it worked.

Can someone explain why an apparently perfectly good socket will work with the tungsten bulbs but not with the new type? For the record, contacts were cleaned and scraped, made no difference.

Dushan
8th Sep 2014, 14:04
Did you measure the voltage at the socket? If there is some resistance, somwhere, the voltage may drop and not be sufficient for the new bulbs. The old bulb would just glow a bit yellower.

MagnusP
8th Sep 2014, 14:11
Is it on a dimmer switch? I had to replace the dimmers in our living room with regular switches when I changed to LEDs.

Capetonian
8th Sep 2014, 14:18
No, don't have a voltmeter, and there's no dimmer switch. Wiring at least so far as is visible is in good condition, and so is the switch which is just below the socket. I dismantled switch and socket to check the integrity of the wiring and it's all fine, so there is no reason to assume a voltage drop.

The bulb that stopped working outside works perfectly in a table lamp inside, and all in the same position, i.e. vertical with the contact cap at the bottom, they're large screw in ones by the way.

OFSO
8th Sep 2014, 14:28
It be the curse of the devil, it be. My BIL has just changed a defective bulb in a twin-lamp-setup controlled by a PIR switch. Now the one he changed is working and the one that was working before that he didn't change has stopped working. Very puzzling (and also a strain on my grammar as the previous sentence shows).

LeRoy Merlin has some excellent solar powered LED lamps called "Abaco" that have PIR detectors in 'em. Cost €14.95 each, one sunny day's charge lasts all night. They stay on "dim" and go to "brilliant" when somebody walks by.

BOING
8th Sep 2014, 16:06
What's new. The sequence of bulbs failing in one position and working perfectly well in others has been reported in Land Rovers for years. The brake lights on my D90 take it in turns to fail - one will work one day, the other the next. I think its Land Rovers way of extending bulb life. :):):)

Seriously, I have almost entirely converted to LEDs. I can't comment on their actual versus claimed life yet but the shapes available, colouration and output improve almost weekly (unfortunately nearly all made in China).

I have a series of porch lights and the original electronic eye controller failed. Since there was a string of 6 exterior light bulbs this controller was a high power device and it was going to be quite expensive to replace. Instead I used a standard controller and changed the bulbs to lower powered LEDs so for almost the same cost I fitted a new controller and more efficient lights with the same light output.


.

modtinbasher
9th Sep 2014, 11:14
OFSO, you said


"The GU 10 LED bulbs I have bought don't have this: they fit in a standard "halogen" GU10 socket."


So do you think these new fangled LED GUI 10 things could be a suitable replacement for my present flush mounted ceiling lights, which are 240v, halogen 50 watt GUI 10s? (I didn't fit them I just inherited them in the current house).


I know you can't see these wretched things from where you are sitting but surely there can't be too many variations of them, either 12 volt or 240?


As there are as many as 10 of these lamps in a couple of our rooms, I feel my wallet twitch every time my good lady turns this 500 watts of light (and heat) on. Clearly LEDs would be the way to go but don't these things get warm as well? And another thing, we don't need 500 watts of light for her to see to her hair as far as I know, or would no doubt be corrected if I were to say that!


What "strength" of quantity ten LED GUI 10 would be equivalent to, say, a normal pendant incandescent lamp of 100 watts?


This as all too much for me, why can't things be kept simple, or is the clue clearly in the difference of cost between a conventional 100w lamp and a new fangled LED thingy? Or do I just need an expensive electrician to take a quick look and tell me I need to change all the lamp holders as well!!


MTB

OFSO
9th Sep 2014, 11:25
there can't be too many variations of them, either 12 volt or 240?

The GU-10 is the 220v designation. (Little rods with lumps on the end go into the socket)

The GU-5 or GU-5.3 is the 12v designation (little bare wires on the end go into the socket)

we don't need 500 watts of light for her to see to her hair as far as I know

Correct, you don't need to consume 500 watts of electricity but you do need something equivalent in brightness.

What "strength" of quantity ten LED GUI 10 would be equivalent to, say, a normal pendant incandescent lamp of 100 watts?

The packets of bulbs they sell here are marked with the electrical consumption, the light output in lumens, and the equivalent of a conventional halogen bulb in watts. It's the last you should go for. Simply put, buy the most powerful you can find. Bigger ones, as Mae West might have said, are coming out all the time !

Most of the guests who stay here, while utterly delightful in other respects, tend to leave the bedroom lights on all evening. I have just replaced four 50 watt halogen bulbs, consuming 200 watts total, with four LED bulbs rated at 60 watt equivalent and consuming about ten watts in total. Even Mrs OFSO, who is highly critical of all new technology, said "oh, it looks brighter in here now."

No you do not need to change the lamp holders - although you might find the former halogen bulbs got so hot they melted the surrounds. Mine did ! Same problem in the UK by the way where I also replaced halogen with LED in two houses. The holders and even the wiring was in a dodgy state after years of 50 watt halogen bulb heat.

Edit: Mrs OFSO just said "I don't like the colour of the new bulbs in mum's house - too yellow". On this side of the channel it's possible to buy LED bulbs in blue or yellow tint. Obviously I should have bought blue. Or half blue half yellow. Or whatever, I'd have been wrong anyway. Memo to self: next time when being helpful, buy a fur coat at the same time. Or a bottle of Krystal. Or a gag.

Dont Hang Up
9th Sep 2014, 12:34
So do you think these new fangled LED GUI 10 things could be a suitable replacement for my present flush mounted ceiling lights, which are 240v, halogen 50 watt GUI 10s? (I didn't fit them I just inherited them in the current house).

We had 10 flush mounted 50w halogens in our kitchen. I too was appalled at the idea of 500w of power needed to light one room! So I invested in a set of 10 LED replacements with the same GU10 fitting.

Frankly it was like cooking by moonlight. :rolleyes:

So I compromised - 5 halogen and 5 LED in alternate fittings. I suspect that it is not much better than 5 halogens alone but looks better than having ugly gaps. I also downrated to 35w halogens without any discernible difference.

Rossian
9th Sep 2014, 12:57
....having replaced ALL the 50 watt halogen down lighters in the house with 4.5watt GU10 LEDs with 120deg spread. The 50 watt halogens had a 36deg spread. As a result all the rooms seem brighter and you have the choice of "warm" white, "cool" white (slightly "bluer") and "daylight" white. The daylight ones are particularly effective. In selected places I have the "dimmable" versions of the bulbs which also work fine if you have the right type of dimmer switch. We also have some 5 watt bayonet connector ones in table lamps and a wall-fitting in the stair well.

Way to go I think. Clearly I can't comment on the longevity as I haven't had them for that long but the saving in leccy is considerable; eg in our kitchen/ diner we have 12 downlighters, so from 600 watts to 54 watts consumption is not to be sneezed at. And, no advert, but the service from the supplier has been excellent.

The Ancient Mariner

OFSO
9th Sep 2014, 13:38
Longevity: I started replacing halogens with LED's about six years ago. Life expectancy of the very first ones was pretty poor, a 50% failure rate in two or three years. However of the latest generation, no failures yet - but maybe too early ?

Despite coronal discharge INSIDE the house yesterday evening during thunderstorm, all 20 or 30 lamps are still functioning today.

Word of warning: LED development is happening fast. More light, less power, different colours, lower price. Don't be surprised if you buy today and they are outmoded by end of the year.

Other word of warning: the solar lamps I purchased from LeRoy Merlin this summer are small but stay alight all night and are too bright to look at directly against a dark background. I wonder how long it will be before we use 'em indoors, carrying them out to charge up in the morning and bringing them inside at dusk. Other than the bother it's already feasable....

BenThere
9th Sep 2014, 16:32
LED advances have come at a rapid pace, eclipsing the fluorescents forced on us by the Greens. All the replacement bulbs I buy now are LEDs.

This is a prime example of the market producing an unsubsidized product that makes economic sense, leapfrogging the government subsidized fluorescents that proved to be not so efficient, not so economical, and not so Green after all.

cattletruck
9th Sep 2014, 16:42
Why do the domestic LED replacement bulbs have something around them that resembles a heat sink. Do they get hot or is this a new style thing?

Also read somewhere that flourescent bar lights are brighter than equivalent T8 LED bars because they send the light out at 360 degrees.

OFSO
9th Sep 2014, 16:45
that resembles a heat sink.

I have found that the very high power ones do get slightly warm but I think it's a fashion thing, like miniskirts on young ladies.....

tom775257
9th Sep 2014, 16:46
The cooler LEDs are, the longer they survive; therefore heat control is important.

cattletruck
9th Sep 2014, 16:57
I thought LEDs generate no heat at all, I could be wrong.

Also find the bulk of the LED downlights means I cant install them under the kitchen cupboards that sit over the bench unless I insert a false cupboard floor inside the cupboard. I thought all this solid state stuff was meant to be very small.

tom775257
9th Sep 2014, 18:16
The bulk of the heat comes from the control gear not the LEDs.

OFSO
9th Sep 2014, 19:18
I thought all this solid state stuff was meant to be very small.

We can get them made as large flat discs here about 1cm thick. Sold as "under-bookshelf lights". There's a number for it but I cannot remember what it is.

IKEA has them:
Bookcase Lights - Bookshelf Lighting - IKEA (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/departments/living_room/16281/)

meadowrun
9th Sep 2014, 19:30
Bought some Ikea lights for my model display cabinets once. Generated too much heat for the models. That was pre-LED 'tho. The above Ikea unit is wired (sold separately of course) and I have too many damned wires already.


So, now need some effective low heat LED battery powered lamps for two display cabinets with four glass shelves each. Won't bother with cabinet No. 3 as it has wooden shelves. Or smaller cabinets Nos. 4,5,6 &7 or shelving racks Nos. 1 & 2. Too many models?

421dog
9th Sep 2014, 22:21
it We have an outside light. It stopped working, obvious solution, new bulb. New (new EU type) bulb didn't work. Checked that in an indoor fitting, it worked. Repeated with another (new type) bulb, same result. Logical conclusion, no power supply to socket.

Tested power supply to socket, it's alive and well. Put in an old type tungsten bulb and it worked.

Can someone explain why an apparently perfectly good socket will work with the tungsten bulbs but not with the new type? For the record, contacts were cleaned and scraped, made no difference.
http://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=8646261) http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8646261&noquote=1)The base of the bulb (i am assuming this is a screw base) will not allow the bulb to be screwed all the way in, so that the center electrode makes contact with the base. This is a huge problem with both CFL and LED replacements over here especially in ceiling fixtures.

Now for the tinfoil hat stuff:

When I was a kid, the power company GAVE AWAY light bulbs. Then, some years ago, it became fashionable to say that we were destroying the world with glass and tungsten, and we needed to employ noble gasses and mercury (at a cost 2 orders of magnitude greater, using manufacturing processes so noxious that they aren't legally possible in our country) to save the planet.

This way of thinking was widely supported from a bipartisan standpoint in our legislative bodies, and thus it came to pass.

What was happening, was that it wasn't possible to make any money on light bulbs, because anyone could make them (better) for a pittance if the opportunity arose.
So, the few manufacturers that could sustain the (then) negligible profit margin of conventional bulbs decided to get them outlawed, and start selling something they could make a buck on.

That all being said, I have LEDs on my front porch that are on all the time, and I just (out of desperation) retrofitted my library with 15 6 inch eyeball led fixtures (at a cost of well over $1000) because I could get them in a 2500k spectrum and they are dimmable. (the currently available halogen PARs that replace my old incandescents are around 5100k, wont dim well, and make my head hurt)

cattletruck
10th Sep 2014, 11:37
Thank you Mr OSFO this is just what I was looking for and seems rather simple to install.

Unfortunately it looks like I may have to venture into that new monolithic IKEA store built a few years ago that I have been loathing the sight of... if you don't hear from me then send in the rescue team.

radeng
10th Sep 2014, 13:49
It is worth noting that some LED lights and fittings cause virulent radio interference.

OFSO
10th Sep 2014, 17:44
Things would be desperate indeed before I went to IKEA again. I would rather use wooden crates as seats, cable drums as tables and pallets as a bedframe before shopping at IKEA.

For lighting and so on we are lucky to have LeRoy Merlin and Castorama an hour's drive away.

Keef
10th Sep 2014, 20:52
It is worth noting that some LED lights and fittings cause virulent radio interference.

Indeed they do! But some cause none at all. I held my HF portable radio up to the one in my study: no noise at all, with the radio right beside it, on any frequency from 150kHz to 30MHz.

I suspect the noise comes from the power supply in the fitting rather than from the lamp itself (switch mode power supplies, yet again).

ShyTorque
10th Sep 2014, 21:27
I think I'll just pop down to my local Aldi where you can buy good old fashioned 100 Watt light bulbs. For heating purposes, obviously. The box says "not to be used for home lighting".

flying lid
10th Sep 2014, 21:52
I think I'll just pop down to my local Aldi where you can buy good old fashioned 100 Watt light bulbs. For heating purposes, obviously. The box says "not to be used for home lighting".

Saw those today in Aldi, Wigan.

They have changed the wording to "not to be used for home lighting - suitable for the cultivation of Cannabis" !!

Lid

meadowrun
10th Sep 2014, 23:47
"suitable for the cultivation of Cannabis"


Actually the colour balance, light frequency is all wrong for good cultivation , you need....... never mind.

david1300
11th Sep 2014, 01:51
meadow
Are you wanting "permanently on" lights or lights that turn on when you go near the shelves ?

I use a couple of battery powered sensor LED's near my door and they work really well. I also tend to use "old" batteries that have come out of clocks which work fine and last ages.

I have installed these in our closets (cupboards) at a cost of about A$6
each, free delivery, from the Bay of E. Made Mrs D very happy - it was lovely for me how a $6 light can bring such joy. Can be set to be on all the time, react to movement only, and in the latter setting, also a day/night function.
8 LED Light Lamp PIR Auto Sensor Motion Detector Wireless Baau High Power | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/320908528456?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)