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superq7
14th Dec 2013, 15:17
I can't believe this what a LIBERTY It?s 40 lashes if you carry on selling alcohol, Muslim patrols warn shops | The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3948391.ece)

500N
14th Dec 2013, 15:26
I'd like to see them give 40 lashes with a hole in the head.

Bunch of wankers that need to be reined in, big time and
then exported out of the UK.

Tankertrashnav
14th Dec 2013, 15:26
As I mentioned in the thread on segregation in universities, the East London Mosque, the largest in the country, has condemned this bunch, and described their rally as a publicity stunt which would antagonise local people. That comes later on in the above article which is only available to subscribers.

All religions have their loonies - I'll never forget Mrs TTN coming home in tears after one her mothers (she was a midwife) had died after refusing a blood transfusion, hours after giving birth to twins. She died, surrounded by her family who were all encouraging her to be resolute and not commit a mortal sin by accepting blood! Jehovah's Witnesses, of course :*

dazdaz1
14th Dec 2013, 16:46
Sad to say, they are closing in on us. In the UK it's an eating away of our country and our laws. We are slowly being assimilated. It's time a few good men stood up to this threat.

I fear for the future of OUR country.

Daz

bugged on the right
14th Dec 2013, 16:51
I give it no more than 40 to 50 years and Britain will be an islamic republic. For no other reason than their rate of procreation. Thank God I won't be here to see it.

Straighten Up
14th Dec 2013, 16:56
I live nearby and was in a local Starbucks when two young Asian kids (12-14) threw rocks at the window then ran off.

Multiculturalism in the area generally works well but where the local white and black yoofs/yobs go beating each other up, mugging students, taking/selling drugs etc, these yobs have decided on this. It's a bit more newsworthy because it's different but IMHO it all boils down to poor parenting and failing to teach their kids respect for their community. I've seen plenty of Asian kids in the area drinking. That being said the mosque could probably put a stop to it if they really wanted to......

Mr Chips
14th Dec 2013, 16:57
Man the barricades, to arms brothers,to arms. The Muslims are coming.....

Whats that? It was one group of idiots who have been condemned by other Muslims?

Damn it. I was really enjoying the whipping up of nonsensical fear and hatred

Oh well, there will be another outrage bus along soon......

Lightning Mate
14th Dec 2013, 17:03
40 lashes ?


Try 40 mm.

Solid Rust Twotter
14th Dec 2013, 17:11
Weren't a couple of them locked up for common assault recently? I seem to recall one was a convert, some cave dwelling species of ginger freckle magnet or something.

UniFoxOs
14th Dec 2013, 17:44
Try 40 mm.

9mm good enough for me.

Krystal n chips
14th Dec 2013, 18:10
More histrionic gibberish from the Times then......which seems to have worked to perfection in some cases it seems. Presumably all those boarding the moral outrage bus also believe in fairies living at the end of the garden as well.

Anyway, back to the 40 lashes bit....can we expect the next exposures of Tory MP's to include "flogging HoP booze" in return for.....40 lashes??

Bargain !

This lady would, no doubt, have been interested in such an arrangement......as would her clientele......somebody else can do the maths for inflation from this period.....:p

Berkley Horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkley_Horse)

Loose rivets
14th Dec 2013, 18:21
and bush exposed: she is manualizing his embolon, whilst Mrs Berkley is birching his posteriors.


Oooooooooooooooo Misssssuuss:}

superq7
14th Dec 2013, 18:46
Krystal, I presume an Embolon is a Winky Wankie Woo, ( Pete & Dud )

Ps very funny post :ok:

SpringHeeledJack
14th Dec 2013, 19:04
Such inflammatory groups do no favours to their religion/way of life. As long as the mainstream adherents don't endorse such feeble minded missives, then it is just noise. That said, we might ask ourselves who is allowing the eroding of centuries of culcha in such a short time frame and what is to be gained ?



SHJ

Big Hammer
14th Dec 2013, 19:24
Pulls up chair, beer cooler and pork scratchings, sitting watching. Wish I still had my issue 9mm.

500N
14th Dec 2013, 19:42
Good to see that this group have been condemned by other Muslims.

At least some have sense.


,Mr Chips
What gives them the right to go around telling people to stop doing something
they enjoy and is perfectly legal ?

500N
14th Dec 2013, 19:55
John

The solution has already been stated.

Hole in the head, 9mm, 40mm (although being LM that is a bit old school so we'll have to update that to what the Apache uses, 30mm).

Or send them back to where they should be.

Big Hammer
14th Dec 2013, 19:59
Possibly the answer lies in using thier own law against them? Or the alternative, the English football hooligan/rentamob?

500N
14th Dec 2013, 20:10
John
I think I left out the ;) and :O

Agree, law needs changing.


BUT, if they rattled my cage, like others, the other solution is a viable alternative to being assaulted by them.

Would they get away with it in the US ?

I'd like to see them try protesting like that and trying to give someone
40 lashes. I think they'd find a few holes appearing quick smart.

radeng
14th Dec 2013, 21:00
I believe the majority of UK and European Muslims condemn these loonies. I have a French Muslim friend who claims the problem with the UK is that the Muslim loonies aren't immediately deported - at best. But... he drinks alcohol, eats pork, believes in educating women. Give him the chance and these loonies would get a 9mm hole in the head.....

So Muslims are not all bad. Without the Arab world of the 11th and 12 centuries, we'd still be counting in Roman numerals, wouldn't have paper or the advances they produced in physical and medical sciences - including 'al kuhl' the burning water, so no Scotch....

What is needed is more voice and more power to the moderates who want to embrace our Western way of life......

500N
14th Dec 2013, 21:17
What is needed is more voice and more power to the moderates who want to embrace our Western way of life......



We live in hope but the media won't allow it.

What pisses me off is the fact that those lefties leaning socialist wankers who don't want to offend anybody allow these people to get away with it and as such we are offended, but that is OK in their view.

obgraham
14th Dec 2013, 21:52
There is not, and can never be, such a thing as a "moderate" muslim; anyone who follows an ideology that demands its followers seek the overthrow of the legitimate government of the land in which they live must be considered an enemy of the people and dealt with appropriately. This is the unfortunate truth.

Unfortunate that a lot of otherwise moderate people have swallowed the islamic line.

Unfortunate that the media and "elites" won't accept the truth.

Unfortunate that Western culture has not and will not wake up to the reality.

tony draper
14th Dec 2013, 22:05
I remember the way a bunch of London Dockers dealt with a gang of Chinese sailors running around the Docks waving Chairman Mao's little red book and hurling abuse at we running dog Englishmen,they kicked the shit out of them,likewise the people of Cable Street and Mosley's chaps.
We are not the people we were.
:(

vee-tail-1
14th Dec 2013, 22:24
Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (http://ex-muslim.org.uk/)

There is hope ... some of those moderate Muslims have become ex Muslims.
The comments on their forum show how valid is the threat posed by Islamic fanatics.

These ex Muslims deserve our support, for they often lose their families, and face serious death threats.

racedo
14th Dec 2013, 22:28
Wait until they find these places have been selling Bacon Fries and Pork Scrathings as well.

PAPI-74
14th Dec 2013, 22:36
"The Saxon is not like us Normans. His manners are not so polite.
But he never means anything serious till he talks about justice and right.
When he stands like an ox in the furrow – with his sullen set eyes on your own,
And grumbles, 'This isn't fair dealing,' my son, leave the Saxon alone.

"You can horsewhip your Gascony archers, or torture your Picardy spears;
But don't try that game on the Saxon; you'll have the whole brood round your ears.
From the richest old Thane in the county to the poorest chained serf in the field,
They'll be at you and on you like hornets, and, if you are wise, you will yield.

"But first you must master their language, their dialect, proverbs and songs.
Don't trust any clerk to interpret when they come with the tale of their wrongs.
Let them know that you know what they're saying; let them feel that you know what to say.
Yes, even when you want to go hunting, hear 'em out if it takes you all day.

PAPI-74
14th Dec 2013, 22:37
THE WRATH OF THE AWAKENED SAXON
by Rudyard Kipling


It was not part of their blood,
It came to them very late,
With long arrears to make good,
When the Saxon began to hate.

They were not easily moved,
They were icy -- willing to wait
Till every count should be proved,
Ere the Saxon began to hate.

Their voices were even and low.
Their eyes were level and straight.
There was neither sign nor show
When the Saxon began to hate.

It was not preached to the crowd.
It was not taught by the state.
No man spoke it aloud
When the Saxon began to hate.

It was not suddently bred.
It will not swiftly abate.
Through the chilled years ahead,
When Time shall count from the date
That the Saxon began to hate.

PAPI-74
14th Dec 2013, 22:38
Simply.....try it!

500N
15th Dec 2013, 02:25
Papi

The problem is, most would roll over and take it.

Gulfstreamaviator
15th Dec 2013, 03:02
But as they are all masked then there is nothing that can be done........ assuming they are not white Anglo Saxons.
glf

mikedreamer787
15th Dec 2013, 03:45
I give it no more than 40 to 50 years and Britain will be an islamic republic. For no other reason than their rate of procreation. Thank God I won't be here to see it.

I'd put serious money on the Islamic Republic
of Great Britain becoming a reality within the
next 20 years, given the population growth of
islamics vs real Britons and Westerners. As I
have said before the UK has surrendered its
cultural and religious sovereignty and it's now
just a matter of time - IMO by 2030-35.

Fortunately there are, however, a few parts of
London and the Isle in general where no bloody
rug thrasher would dare show his face. No need
to expand on that, but suffice to mention all the
universally reviled soccer hooligans, as hinted
earlier by BH could, in a 'the enemy of my enemy
is my friend' sort of way, teach these 'brothers of
peace' that the average pom will not just give up
their own country without a fight.

And since the koran is a document of violence
anyway, islamics only know violence as a tool
for change. Whenever they are bitterly fought,
down at their level, they'll either give up or get
the hell out of a country they neither deserve
nor merit through temperament or reason.

That is to suggest not to fight fire with fire but
with a bloody great furnace.

I'm all for peaceful resolution of conflict without
resorting to violence, but in this case I seriously
doubt it would have any real effect, except in a
cosmetic form. The UK is of course your country
but a soccer hoon alliance might perhaps be a
place to start reclaiming what's rightfully yours.

SOPS
15th Dec 2013, 04:53
Take off the huggie fluff gloves and just deport them or jail them for treason as quickly as possible. Take back the UK.

500N
15th Dec 2013, 04:59
I can't understand why but the UK and Australia seem to have become the soft cocks of the world when it comes to dealing with people.

I don't think even NZ is even close to how we are, the cops there still crack heads when the Maori's get out of hand.

SOPS
15th Dec 2013, 05:06
Could not agree more 500. In Oz I bame SHY and those like her. Pity we can't deport her.

500N
15th Dec 2013, 05:08
Greenies.

Plough them in and fertilize the earth, at least they would have done one
thing good in their life :ok: :O

500N
15th Dec 2013, 06:55
"Don't be such a hard arse man... !"


That's not hard arse, putting them on their arse when they try
to give you 40 lashes and teaching them a real lesson so they
don't do it again is hard arse. Then deport them, in a wheel chair.

PAPI-74
15th Dec 2013, 07:21
'Muslim Patrol' jailed for harassing couple holding hands and men drinking in a bid to enforce Sharia law in East London | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html)

Is this what you want to see spreading to every city, town and village?
If this is overlooked, it will !!!!

This spineless government wants voters, not a proud successful nation.

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 07:51
Islam must be criminalised, and the punishment for adherence to this disgusting cult must be severe. Islam is the enemy of the west.

There is not, and can never be, such a thing as a "moderate" muslimAs opposed as I am to all religions, this is nonsense. Moderate Muslims do exist, and all you're doing is rewording the No True Scotsman fallacy if you are suggesting otherwise.

Criminalisation of a belief system is anathema to pluralist democracy. To paraphrase the poem, "First they came for the Muslims...". Your own solution is more of an enemy of "the west" (by which I assume you mean a home for democratic freedom, such as it is) than the apparent threat. No thought or belief system should be against the law, and all should be able to believe whatever they wish. Only actions can and should be against the law, and that law should be based on secular mores rather than pandering to the wishes of those many and varying fairy stories.

ExSp33db1rd
15th Dec 2013, 08:19
............ 23-year-old man who cannot be named for legal reasons .............

Why, what reasons ??

PAPI-74
15th Dec 2013, 09:02
Probably the son of the local leader.....who of course never give sanctuary to extremists!

PAPI-74
15th Dec 2013, 09:03
Terror suspect Mohammed Ahmed Mohammed escapes wearing burqa - CCTV video | UK news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2013/nov/04/terror-suspect-mohammed-ahmed-burqa-cctv-video)

sitigeltfel
15th Dec 2013, 09:14
Choudary told the crowd: ‘The shops are run by Muslims and they know they are selling alcohol and they know the sale and consumption of alcohol is completely prohibited.

‘We cannot live among the non-Muslims and see this evil take place.’
Well, you can always fcuk off and move to a place where your twisted, evil and misogynous views are revered.


Just don't expect the benefits there to be anything as generous.

PAPI-74
15th Dec 2013, 09:16
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Tankertrashnav
15th Dec 2013, 09:43
More histrionic gibberish from the Times then......which seems to have worked to perfection in some cases it seems. Presumably all those boarding the moral outrage bus also believe in fairies living at the end of the garden as well.

K & C - If you read my post above you will see that what is shown on the link is only the beginning of the article, which goes on to report the reaction of the majority of moderate Muslims, as represented by the east London Mosque.

However, you carry on believing that Times readers are all rabid right-wing loonies, and I'll continue in my belief that Guardian readers all wear open-toed sandals and knit their own tofu ;)

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2013, 09:48
Papi with reference to he story you linked to, yes, that is exactly what I want spreading to every city, town or village....

...offenders being locked up.

This self styled Muslim patrol harassed and assaulted people, were arrested,prosecuted and jailed.

Job done.

As for one not being identified, it's usually because of other pending prosecutions, but you crack on with your conspiracy theories

Tankertrashnav
15th Dec 2013, 09:55
I do despair at the medieval attitudes shown on this thread, almost as medieval as those shown by these idiots in the Brick Lane area. In an attempt to show that even Muslims who adhere to the rules of their faith can be quite happy to co-exist in a Western secular society I started this thread http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/407969-my-friend-yusuf.html a few years back. However I see that nothing has changed, and that there are still lengthy queues for every outrage bus that comes along in this forum :(

Incidentally glancing through that thread I see a few names that have disappeared of late. Where's Corsair gone, for example? I used to enjoy his posts from the Emerald Isle.

Rwy in Sight
15th Dec 2013, 10:04
They may be a small minority but they keep making more and more demands. They may serve as scouts launching an idea and hopping it will catch.

Rwy in Sight

radeng
15th Dec 2013, 10:19
As seems usual these days, the sentences seem far too short to me.

Krystal n chips
15th Dec 2013, 10:22
TTN,

" If you read my post above you will see that what is shown on the link is only the beginning of the article, ".

I never said Times readers were rabid right wingers.....and I did read your reply and the full article.

However, if you want to get readers attention, irrespective of the context, it's a well known ploy to open your statements in a manner that will have an immediate effect.....the Mail "excels" in this respect, as do advertising agencies .....the more factual details come much later in the text by which time, the reader has already formed an opinion or viewpoint based on the opening statements anyway and thus the message has been successfully implemented.

Like wot I sed......;)

" Is this what you want to see spreading to every city, town and village?
If this is overlooked, it will !!!!"

Thank you, Nostradamus or Mother Shipton....or Mystic Meg.....feel free to choose the one whom you feel you can identify with the most.

500N
15th Dec 2013, 10:30
"However, if you want to get readers attention, irrespective of the context, it's a well known ploy to open your statements in a manner that will have an immediate effect.....the Mail "excels" in this respect, as do advertising agencies ....."

The left is pretty damn good at it as well ! :O

500N
15th Dec 2013, 16:56
"The disastrous 'multiculturalism' experiment has sown the seeds of our society's destruction."


That is because the UK didn't think before opening it's doors and didn't
have any checks or balances in place.

Australia seems to have done damn well out of multiculturalism,
peaceful, hard working etc.

Like the UK, he problem has been since we also let in a
whole load of Muslims, especially the Lebanese.

Krystal n chips
15th Dec 2013, 17:01
" and the imprisonment of the rest of the community and confiscation of all property owned by them, would serve as a very stark warning to other communities that might consider doing anything similar. "


Some very astute forward thinking ( the term being a very generous euphemism to save you any further confusion ) and it does make me wonder if you should really be posting on the Reincarnation thread, about past life experiences.......say, early to middle 20th century for example when this wonderful ideology was tried on a few million people.

On the other hand, as you don't actually reside in the UK.....which is a blessing......why the concern, or rather vitriol, over "our" country ?.....are you planning on returning at some point perhaps ?

500N
15th Dec 2013, 17:12
Krystal

Doesn't mean it can't be tried again.

You only have to ask one question. Do the Muslims have the UK's best interest at heart ?

In most cases it would be no, they have their interests at heart.

StressFree
15th Dec 2013, 17:50
Krystal,

Yawn, the usual tedium............ straight from the Guardian.

How about some original thought? Socialism has failed every state its had the unfortunate presence to be in, it doesn't work, it fails.....

Just like you.

:(

Krystal n chips
15th Dec 2013, 18:09
" The comparison to Nazi policy is a straw man: Jews were a convenient scapegoat, and presented no threat to the German state. Muslims present a real, grave threat to the UK that must be dealt with

I never made that comparison, neither did I mention Nazi Germany.
Possibly you need to read up on some, preferably non-revisionist, history of the world for this period.

Stress Free......do read the posts ol'boy......we are not actually discussing socialism here......I would ask for a rebate on your educational fees all those years ago.....:D

vee-tail-1
15th Dec 2013, 18:13
The Islamist threat can be viewed in two ways:

This is the bad news ....
Are We Losing The War For The Soul Of Islam? | Standpoint (http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/5250)

And this the good news ...
Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (http://ex-muslim.org.uk/)

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 19:37
Your post presupposes that pluralism is a good thing and in the interests of the UK. I would argue strongly that it manifestly is not. The disastrous 'multiculturalism' experiment has sown the seeds of our society's destruction.You are mixing up the terms: pluralism is not the same as multiculturalism. Pluralism as part of democracy allows freedom of association, meaning one has the right to join or leave groups, and hold views, of one's own choosing. For democracy to function such a right is necessary; deny that right and you deny freedom of thought, which is a very short step from Orwellian dystopia. I made no comment about multiculturalism.
How can it possibly be in the interests of the UK to allow these undesirables a platform to peddle their views which in the opinion of most right thinking Britons constitute treason; a venemous assault on our society?Who are these "right thinking" Britons, and who gets to say who is and who is not one? What defines one?
Apart from that, it is entirely in the interests of the UK to air these idiotic views such that those who are able to think and debate critically can shun then on grounds of sound reasoning rather than censoring views. Censorship only ever happens when person A is fearful of what person B might do when he hears the relevant information. What right does person A have to do so? Again, it's fear of thoughtcrime.
I strongly disagree. [regarding the existence of moderate Muslims]Well should you ever wish to meet my father then I can introduce you to one. Misguided by being religious he might be, but he is also moderate. Are you now going to tell me he's not a Muslim? Or are you going to accept that they exist?
Regarding the case you cite, I agree that those complicit should be punished. Bulldozing the mosque is akin to collective punishment (and an ironic statement given the one of the functions of churches in medieval times). Still, it is only an example of individual cases rather than all Muslims being a threat.
The fact is that the wider Muslim community in the UK never does enough to condemn the most extreme in their ranks, and indeed repeatedly go out of their way to provide succour to our enemies.I've asked this before: what would be "enough"? This "community" you refer to is something of a catchall, and misses the fact that people do not act as a collective: they act as individuals and in individual interests. To collectively punish people on the basis of individual actions undermines centuries of law and due process, rights which were born in this country back in the 13th century.
they undeniably follow a cult which demands its followers establish an overarching religious government worldwide. This belief system is incompatible with our society, and is the reason I assert that 'moderate' Muslims do not exist.Just as not all Christians believe that the Pope is the head of the Church, not all Muslims wish to establish the Caliphate worldwide, or believe that the Koran requires it.

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 20:18
multiculturalism is inexorably linked to cultural pluralism.I didn't say anything about cultural pluralism, I talked about pluralist democracy. It is democracy which you wish to defend, right?
I would propose denying freedom of thought to a very narrow class of people, in the best interests of the wider community. To an extent, I am proposing a utilitarian solution to the problem. That "narrow class" is ~5% of the population, which means nearly 3 million people. Hardly utilitarian at all, and certainly not practical in any manner.
it IS collective punishment.Which takes us back some 700+ years. Your idea is no better than that of those (few) who wish to impose a worldwide caliphate.
Criminals should be made to realise that a transgression in the name of their faith by one will result in the brutal punishment of all men, women and children from their community. Laws should be enacted to ensure that communities can be judged guilty by association.Why "in the name of their faith"? Why should religious crime be given some sort of special status?
Sometimes it is necessary to do distasteful things to ensure the survival of our way of life.Distasteful? This is not ensuring the survival of our way of life, it's destroying it. Our very society for the past few centuries has been based on the concept of due process for the individual, and you would remove it on a whim? I cannot agree with that.

I assume that since you have offered no counter to the fact that my father is a moderate Muslim you accept that they do exist, which rather puts a damper on your whole "collective punishment" theme anyway.

bcgallacher
15th Dec 2013, 20:19
In Scotland we have a thriving Islamic community without the problems of fanatics that there seem to be in England.I cannot remember any occasion that there has been any demonstration by the type of Islamic nutter that we have recently witnessed. Frankly, in certain areas of Scotland trying to stop the sale of alcohol could be extremely harmful to ones health, if not fatal.I doubt that much of what we see happening in England would be tolerated in Scotland - we have good race relations here - my family is mixed race and have never experienced any kind of discrimination.

BenThere
15th Dec 2013, 20:27
PTT,

I sympathize with the predicament of Muslims who have done nothing wrong and only want to get on with their lives. They are among the many victims of Islamic aggressiveness.

The fact is, though, that virtually all the carnage we have experienced in the world for the past couple of decades has been at the hand of Muslims. And the tactics they have employed have been barbaric, unspeakably cruel. The irrational, and in my experience, almost universal hatred of Jews is another atrocious aspect.

I don't know how it can all be reconciled other than through the ultimate destruction of Islam as just another ideology, like Nazism, that humanity can't continue to tolerate, unless it reforms to a more civilized state.

There is a lot of good in Islam. In fact, the wholesomeness of the culture is in so many ways superior to that of Western secularism. The violence, though, negates all of that.

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 20:31
@ Ben - Except Nazism hasn't been destroyed or eradicated. Neo-Nazism exists in many countries, certainly in the US and quite visibly in Greece. You can't kill an idea, you can only argue against it. You don't do that by outlawing the idea: that only forces it underground where it thrives; you argue against it in the open, showing it to be ridiculous and flawed, and you allow people to use their critical faculties to counter it. That was pretty much the entire point of the enlightenment, after all.

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 20:33
I do not accept that moderate Muslims exist. As I have repeatedly said, you cannot have a moderate adherent to a faith that demands its followers kill all non believers, and establish a worldwide caliphate. Moderate Muslim is an oxymoron.So do you deny that my father exists, or that he is a Muslim?So that means it wouldn't affect ~95% of the population. If we consider Bentham's idea of 'Greatest happiness for the greatest number...' those figures are pretty stark.And if we look at the "tyrrany of the masses" as a political concept then the very idea becomes abhorrent. That is why we live in representative republics rather than direct democracies.
This thread is dealing specifically with a religious (arguably quasi-religious) issue, therefore I've only considered religious crimes to stay on topic. The only thing I've said should be confined to the 'narrow class' referenced above is denial of free thought.But do you actually think it should only be with respect to religious crime? Feel free to stray a little from the topic in the name of clarity ;)

BenThere
15th Dec 2013, 20:40
I can't argue with your point at all, PTT.

Nazism does still exist, but it was roundly and completely defeated as a threat to the civilized world.

It had to be done militarily, and at enormous cost. The cost was greater because the world allowed it to metastasize. Today's Islam is strikingly similar.

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 20:42
Ben - if it is then it needs to be fought against with better ideas to prevent it from getting to the state Nazism got to back then. Banning ideas simple fuels them.

Tankertrashnav
15th Dec 2013, 20:50
I sympathize with the predicament of the Irish who have done nothing wrong and only want to get on with their lives. They are among the many victims of Republican aggressiveness.

The fact is, though, that virtually all the carnage we have experienced in the UK for the past couple of decades has been at the hand of the IRA. And the tactics they have employed have been barbaric, unspeakably cruel. The irrational, and in my experience, almost universal hatred of Protestants is another atrocious aspect.

I don't know how it can all be reconciled other than through the ultimate destruction of Republicanism as just another ideology, like Nazism, that humanity can't continue to tolerate, unless it reforms to a more civilized state.

There is a lot of good in Ireland. In fact, the wholesomeness of the culture is in so many ways superior to that of English secularism. The violence, though, negates all of that.


Ben There - You could have made a statement like that 20 years ago and received a sympathetic hearing from a sizeable proportion of the English population. Things aren't still perfect in Northern Ireland, but they are way better than they were, mainly because the vast majority of the Irish population who were not members or supporters of terrorist organisations finally got sick of the violence and hatred and decided to get on with their lives. Terrorism has all but disappeared from the streets of the UK apart from a few isolated incidents in Northern Ireland.

In spite of what John Smith asserts, moderate Muslims do exist (my daughter's partner is one for a start) and I maintain they are in the massive majority in this country, just as the moderate Irish always were in their country. By the way John, my daughter's partner observes all the tenets of his faith, both dietary and in the observance of regular prayer, but he is most certainly a moderate - once again I refer you to http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/407969-my-friend-yusuf.html

Matari
15th Dec 2013, 20:51
It's rather tiresome to hear that those of us in the West who value liberty and basic freedoms like speech, religion and equality of the sexes, need to promote our ideals to fanatical zealots.

Instead, I'd be interested to see if PTT's father (since PTT brought him up, but just as an example of a moderate muslim) would spend time in mosques frequented by radical muslims, preaching the values of Western ideals. Seriously, how long would he last in the company of a Zarqawi?

Wouldn't it make more sense for the faithful to hit this head-on? After all, muslims kill more muslims than anyone else. The muslim "apostates" are the first to feel the brunt of the zealot's tyranny. Why aren't the moderates leading the charge for Western values? Rhetorical question, of course.

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 20:56
I was baptised into the CofE which technically makes me a Christian. In the same way, moderate 'Muslims' are in fact lapsed, non-observant Muslims. This can be backed up by reading various fatwas issued by leading Islamic scholars. I will try to find a link to one when I have time.There we go: the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, which is precisely what I said a few posts back. The problem with your "leading Islamic scholars" is that there is actually no central authority in Islam from which to take the lead: nobody can do the excommunicating in the way the pope can. To that end, the interpretations of one Islamic scholar can be considered equal to the interpretations of another. This is both a strength and a weakness for the religion because it means people can choose which scholar (Imam) they wish to follow, and because it means people get a bit confused about what Islam actually is. It also means that nobody gets to define who is and who is not a Muslim apart from the believer themselves.

Now, you've been railing for some time about "a faith that demands its followers kill all non believers, and establish a worldwide caliphate", and I think it's reasonable to say that any such faith might be considered dangerous. The thing is, it is not Islam which demands this, but certain people within Islam who are generally termed Islamists. They are also Muslims, but they are Muslims in the same was as the Inquisition were Christian: they are fanatics. "Islamists" are a subset of "Muslim".

No I don't think it should be restricted to 'religious crimes'. There should be laws in place to allow for collective punishment when appropriate.To what level? How closely associated with a guilty person can someone be before they escape the collective punishment?

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 21:00
It's rather tiresome to hear that those of us in the West who value liberty and basic freedoms like speech, religion and equality of the sexes, need to promote our ideals to fanatical zealots.Why is it tiresome? It was the entire basis of the Enlightenment.Instead, I'd be interested to see if PTT's father (since PTT brought him up, but just as an example of a moderate muslim) would spend time in mosques frequented by radical muslims, preaching the values of Western ideals. Seriously, how long would he last in the company of a Zarqawi?To the best of my knowledge he's been to a mosque several times in the past few years. What he says and does there I have no idea, but I do know how he feels about the Islamists as he has said so quite vehemently ("they don't follow the religion I do").
Wouldn't it make more sense for the faithful to hit this head-on? After all, muslims kill more muslims than anyone else. The muslim "apostates" are the first to feel the brunt of the zealot's tyranny. Why aren't the moderates leading the charge for Western values? Rhetorical question, of course.People in general don't like conflict. Why get yourself embroiled with a fanatic when you don't need to? It's a risk to yourself, to your family, and to your friends.

Matari
15th Dec 2013, 21:06
Brave people confront tyrants. Weak people wait for tyrants to get too large, then expect others to take care of the problem for them.

Romeo Oscar Golf
15th Dec 2013, 21:27
I'm with you Basil........but don't some of us take wine at Communion?
With regard the "moderate" muslim, I, and I sugest many others, fully understand what john-smith is saying, whether we agree or support his view is another matter. I'm still on the fence there. The muslims I trained and lived with in Oman, who drank alchohol and eat pork stated that it was a matter of conscience between them and Allah, and had nothing to do with their Immans. A refreshing, almost Christian attitude I thought. However, they were all well educated and had spent much of their formative years in UK or US education systems up to University level,and had completed their initial military training in UK or USA.
There are many muslims living in UK who may find such conduct unacceptable, and may find my (and others )idea of a moderate muslim equally unacceptable.

PTT
15th Dec 2013, 21:37
@ Matari - I agree. Confrontation is essential, and that confrontation must be open and honest and reliant on the intelligence (rather than afraid of the stupidity) of the public.

@ john_smith
Exactly why I referred to 'scholars' plural. You will find that there are few things that the various factions can agree on, but the total submission to Islam, installing an Islamic state worldwide, converting or killing non-believers etc. are a few of the things they all agree on as fundamental to the faith."Plural" is not the same as "all". I can show you plenty of "factions" who don't think that way. Again, I suggest it is Islamism and Islamists rather than Islam and Muslims to which you refer.That would have to be determined after a rigorous parliamentary process.Not so easy, is it? Or we could stick with the tried and tested concept of due process which has worked for seven centuries, and continues to work to this day. Or would you rather go to jail because your neighbour happened to be Fred West?

@ Basil - I can see how I might come across that way sometimes, but I certainly don't see myself as such (who does?). Apology accepted ;)

Keef
15th Dec 2013, 21:46
A fascinating read!

I suspect the "teaching" in Islam (about which I know very little) is much like the teaching in Christianity (about which I know a bit). There's a very large central core of teaching which the great majority hold to (with a few differences*), and then some seriously way-out fringe views.

It's the fringes that get all the attention and cause most of the problems. But when the whole "faith" comes under attack, what are the moderate majority to do?


* Yes, I do know about the differences between Catholic and Protestant, but don't get very excited about them. I'm an Anglo-Catholic by instinct, so stuck firmly on the fence with my ear to the ground ;)

Keef
15th Dec 2013, 23:09
That's "catholic" with a small "c", I reckon - means "universal". The creeds kept "catholick and apostolick" after the Reformation.

denachtenmai
16th Dec 2013, 16:46
bcgallacher
In Scotland we have a thriving Islamic community without the problems of fanatics that there seem to be in England.I cannot remember any occasion that there has been any demonstration by the type of Islamic nutter that we have recently witnessed

forgetting about the Glasgow airport attack are we??

2007 Glasgow International Airport attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Glasgow_International_Airport_attack)

Regards, Den.

Tankertrashnav
16th Dec 2013, 16:53
The main problem for Muslims in Glasgow is deciding if they are Catholic Muslims or Protestant Muslims ;)

SpringHeeledJack
16th Dec 2013, 16:58
The main problem for Muslims in Glasgow is deciding if they are Catholic Muslims or Protestant Muslims

That wins my 2013 Award for humour :D:D:D



SHJ

bcgallacher
16th Dec 2013, 18:55
Den - I had in fact forgotten that one but what I was referring to was street demonstrations by groups of fundamentalist nutcases that we frequently see in English cities.Our Muslim community seem to be too busy making money to be bothered with the Islamic bit! I believe the wholesale booze business in Glasgow is controlled by Pakistanis - Sharia says only that they should not drink alcohol,nowhere is there any prohibition on selling it.There really does not seem to be an 'us and them' attitude that there appears to be in England.

skua
17th Dec 2013, 08:34
The story was picked up in last night's Evening Standard.


It reminds me of an interview in a paper a couple of weeks ago with an Australian CEO (I think of a mining company). He described his (HR) management style as FIFO, as in Fit In or F*** Off!


Perhaps we should adopt the same approach....

Curious Pax
17th Dec 2013, 08:55
As ever life is just full of contradictions: Murree Brewery (http://www.murreebrewery.com/)

Solid Rust Twotter
17th Dec 2013, 09:32
Ah, but they have a cunning plan to stop people drinking the stuff, Mr CP. It's utterly vile...:ooh:

Romeo Oscar Golf
17th Dec 2013, 15:38
cunning plan to stop people drinking the stuff

Guess we're back on thread, that'll be the 40 lashes then?. Or is the beer that bad?:yuk:

Solid Rust Twotter
18th Dec 2013, 07:23
ROG

The beer is stomach turning. It's a good reason to go on the wagon while in Pakistan. I don't drink the hard stuff, only beer. Fortunately we were picking up a fair to middling brew (Baltika) on the other end of our travels in Dushanbe. The rest of the crew were supping gallons of Gzelka vodka and cherry juice which isn't bad according to those who sampled it.

Metro man
18th Dec 2013, 07:42
Religion is and has been responsible for more of the worlds problems than any other single cause. John Lennon had a good point in his song "Imagine", about a world with no countries or religion.

Religion is to the mind as tapeworm is to the stomach.

sitigeltfel
18th Dec 2013, 08:23
Religion is and has been responsible for more of the worlds problems than any other single cause.

Someone with possibly too much time on their hands totted up the number of people that God smote in the Bible and it came to 2,038,344, whereas the Devil could only notch up 10.

Who's the bad guy?

Tankertrashnav
18th Dec 2013, 10:14
John Lennon had a good point in his song "Imagine", about a world with no countries or religion.




He also wrote "imagine no possessions" as he composed the song on his Steinway concert grand in his mansion.

Always thought that song a load of mawkish, hypocritical twaddle :yuk:

PTT
18th Dec 2013, 10:17
the number of people that God smote in the Bible and it came to 2,038,3442,821,364

That's just the number of people killed where numbers are given in the Bible. If you include all those killings where no numbers are given (Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho etc) and go for estimates based on populations etc then it's many, many more...

PAPI-74
18th Dec 2013, 14:18
History is a tad irrelevant in this case, don't you think?

The PM made me laugh at the 'A Night Of Heroes: The Military Awards' - ITV, 9pm.
He was waffling about bravery and needs to take his own advise...