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vee-tail-1
13th Dec 2013, 08:57
Gender segregation not 'alien to our culture', says Universities UK chief | Society | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/12/gender-segregation-not-alien-culture-universities-chief)

Nicola Dandridge is the chief executive of Universities UK, the representative organisation for the UKs universities. She was interviewed on BBC Radio 4 where she blustered and obfuscated in defence of her organisations guidance to allow gender discrimination in UK universities.

She completely failed to grasp the fact that gender discrimination (like racial discrimination) is unacceptable in the UK.

Various politicians from all spectrums have expressed outrage.
I emailed her office with a demand for her immediate resignation. This is the reply sent to me : Obfuscation or admirable clarity? You be the judge ...

Dear …….
Thank you for your email.
To help universities in upholding the principle of free speech while acting within the law, Universities UK last month published guidance that mapped out the different factors that universities may need to consider when managing requests for visiting speakers to come on to campus, reflecting both their legal obligations and their practical application. The guidance was approved by senior legal counsel as properly reflecting the law. It is not prescriptive. Universities are independent institutions and will make decisions on a case by case basis.

The guidance does not promote gender segregation. It includes a hypothetical case study involving an external speaker talking about his orthodox religious faith who had requested segregated seating areas for men and women. The case study considered the facts, the relevant law and the questions that the university should ask, and concluded that if neither women nor men were disadvantaged and a non-segregated seating area also provided, a university could decide it is appropriate to agree to the request. It is very hard to see any university agreeing to a request for segregation that was not voluntary and did not have the broad support of those attending. As the guidance explains, there may be many other reasons why a university might refuse a request for segregation.

The legal opinion for Universities UK’s guidance on external speakers in higher education has been published on our website.

The full guidance can be found on our website at:
http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/.../Externalspeakersinhig... .

Rachel Daley, Information Officer, Universities UK
Direct tel: +44 (0)20 7419 5523 Email: [email protected]
Switchboard tel: +44 (0)20 7419 4111 Fax: +44 (0)20 7383 5766
Universities UK - External speakers in higher education institutions Universities UK - Homepage (http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk)

There is no middle way with gender discrimination ... either you separate people on the basis of their gender- which is discrimination. Or you do not separate people and allow them to mix- which is freedom.
Same deal with race ... separate blacks from whites-that's discrimination. Allow them to mix-that's freedom.

Universities UK is pandering to religious fascism and should know better than most where that will lead.

Capetonian
13th Dec 2013, 09:13
What worries me is that seemingly intelligent, but misguided, people are employed and paid to perform this type of work and write such utter drivel.
It reminds me of "as we are an equal opportunity employer, we require you to complete the attached form."
The form was, predictably, only to establish if I was from an 'ethnic minority', disabled, gay ... etc.
I wrote back and said: "I am a one-legged, female, blind, vegan, bisexual Eritrean asylum seeker with AIDS and four illegitimate children by unknown men. On this basis I am sure I am sufficiently 'equal' to qualify so when do I start."

No reply, clearly they were a racist, homophobic judgemental bunch of bigots.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 09:15
Did I read a different article?


The one I just read seemed to suggest that in the event a guest speaker was invited to a University and then requested segregated seating the University in conjunction with the students themselves would make the final decision.


I missed anything about compulsion to attend, in fact all I saw was a sensible grown up approach.

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 09:16
Universities pandering to such demands would indeed be an intolerable restriction.

Reference your emailed reply:
concluded that if neither women nor men were disadvantaged and a non-segregated seating area also provided, a university could decide it is appropriate to agree to the request.
This seems to cover all bases, providing the hypothetical speaker with their segregated areas while giving people the freedom to choose. Sit in area X if you are male and wish to be segregated, in area Y if you are female and wish to be segregated, and area Z if you do not wish to be segregated. My suspicion is that people would be left with standing room only in Z, and that there would be very little of the room which was taken up by X and Y...

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 09:32
It completely fails to address the practicalities. If the capacity of the location is 400, and 400 wish to attend and sit in the non-segregated area, then you are discriminating if you insist on retaining a segregated area.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 09:56
It completely fails to address the practicalities. If the capacity of the location is 400, and 400 wish to attend and sit in the non-segregated area, then you are discriminating if you insist on retaining a segregated area.

My reading of it was that if the capacity was 400 and 400 wanted to attend in non segregated seating then if the speaker was unhappy with that it is hard luck on the speaker.

The article suggests no compulsion :ok:

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 10:12
http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/highereducation/Documents/2013/ExternalSpeakersLegalOpinion.pdf

The legal opinion is less clear. See para. 8. If the speaker refuses to attend without some segregated area, and the University insisting on all seating being non-segregated to comply with Freedom of Association, then it could be in conflict with Freedom of Speech, apparently.

At some point, there will need to be a big reassessment of the Law with regard to Religions, since the majority of them are discriminatory in many ways (and I don't just mean Islam here).

cattletruck
13th Dec 2013, 10:13
In this play-the-victim world, segregated seating is actually reverse discrimination.

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 10:15
This kind of nonsense is why freedom from religion is far more desirable to freedom of religion.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 10:27
Should atheism have the same legal status as a religion?

What about agnosticism?

racedo
13th Dec 2013, 10:49
Pandering to a few who scream loudly it appears.

Universities happily ban and bar Christianity but anything an "other" religion seeks is pandered to, this is supposedly not to exclude people.

George Orwell would be so proud of the double speak.

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 10:56
What about agnosticism?I don't know ;)

500N
13th Dec 2013, 10:57
"bar Christianity but anything an "other" religion seeks is pandered to, this is supposedly not to exclude people."

Kindegarten with many different cultures, not allowed to say Xmas, Christmas and all things associated with it including crosses.

Children walk in wearing Burka's and Turbans (? Sikh's ?).


This line in one of the posts just sums it up Western society superbly.
"desperate to avoid the risk of offending anyone."

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 11:02
What a crock of nonsense! It is a discussion about a totally hypothetical situation, full of "might, could and maybe" IF there was a demand for segregation, then certain things must be considered, IF students were happy to be segregated, IF there may be discrimination

Read the article, then read it again. This is NOT about segregation in universities, it is about whether a speakers request,at a one off event, can or should be accommodated. Accommodated, not even enforced.

As for Chuka Ummuna saying
I was horrified by what I heard … let me be absolutely clear, a future Labour government would not allow or tolerate segregation in our universities.
he clearly hasn't bothered to read the article either.

I emailed her office with a demand for her immediate resignation. This is the reply sent to me : Obfuscation or admirable clarity? You be the judge ...
I'm impressed they were so polite in their reply. What right do you have to demand the resignation of anyone just because you don't agree with what they said?

radeng
13th Dec 2013, 11:15
We do accept gender segregation for toilets, though - but not always for toilets for the handicapped. Plus you definitely do need a separate set of ladies toilets, so that several of them can go as a group and privately discuss the shortcomings (or otherwise!) of their men.

MagnusP
13th Dec 2013, 11:28
We do accept gender segregation for toilets, though

Never been on an airplane, then, radeng? ;)

Edit: Bugga. Apologies to both racedo and radeng for getting them mixed up.

denachtenmai
13th Dec 2013, 11:59
Mr Chips, Accommodated, not even enforced.


I know that it is in the DM, but if correct then the debate "Islam v Atheism" in the UC London in March was forcibly segregated and security tried to move those who would not comply :mad:
Regards, Den.

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 12:19
Den I have no knowledge of that incident, but perhaps that is the reason why this guidance/discussion was instigated?

Lets face it,it is unlikely that the DM will have given a fair and unbiased account, so we can't really be sure what actually happened on that occasion ...

Miserlou
13th Dec 2013, 12:35
Mr Chips,

This 'hypothetical situation' has occurred some 40 times.

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 12:39
Gosh Miserlou,has it really? Then isn't lucky that this lady has seen fit to start a rational discussion on the topic

Just out of curiosity do you have any non Daily Mail links to unbiased accounts of these 40 occurrences?

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 12:40
This is a ridiculous situation in a first world country in the 21st century, utterly unacceptable...:(



PTT, good posts, I agree fully, 'freedom from religion', excellent description, well said!

:D

airship
13th Dec 2013, 12:43
I understand that gender discrimination is extremely wide-spread in UK universities, especially in French (and other foreign-language) courses:

Ban 'em all I say. Enough of il and elle (together with ils and elles, la and le) etc. Leas tables usually have 4 bleedin' pieds OK?!

PS. And don't start me off on "tu and vous"...?! :(

racedo
13th Dec 2013, 12:50
Edit: Bugga. Apologies to both racedo and radeng for getting them mixed up.

He older, better looking, richer but I got more hair.............easy mistake to make :cool:

racedo
13th Dec 2013, 12:59
This kind of nonsense is why freedom from religion is far more desirable to freedom of religion.

You have Freedom from religion if you so choose......

As a Catholic trust me I have no intentions of trying to convert anybody, frankly never discuss converting............
Well aside from friends the female is non Catholic. She attends Mass every Sunday with them, ensures they making Communion and pretty much everybody assumes she is Catholic. She said maybe one day.

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 13:05
Stressfree
This is a ridiculous situation in a first world country in the 21st century, utterly unacceptable...
What situation exactly are you talking about?

The hypothetical discussion?
The call for resignation because of the discussion?
The Daily Mail scare story?
The alleged 40 occurrences?

rgbrock1
13th Dec 2013, 13:10
Discrimination this and discrimination that. I'm gay, I'm being discriminated against. I'm bi-sexual, I'm being discriminiated against. I'm black, I'm this, I'm that. Waaah.

People really need to do less whining about things and just get on with their friggin' lives. If anyone has this much time on their hands, to whine about being discriminated against, then they really have f**k all to do.

Get on with it and stop the whining.

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 13:33
You have Freedom from religion if you so choose......No I don't. The Lords has 26 unelected members who call themselves the "Lords Spiritual" who take part in lawmaking decisions in my country. Get rid of them, and get rid of all religion in public organisations, and get rid of tax breaks for religions (wtf is that about??). People can do what they want in private, but everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law.

racedo
13th Dec 2013, 13:40
No I don't. The Lords has 26 unelected members who call themselves the "Lords Spiritual" who take part in lawmaking decisions in my country. Get rid of them, and get rid of all religion in public organisations, and get rid of tax breaks for religions (wtf is that about??). People can do what they want in private, but everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law.

That is established church getting a benefit so let state decide to disestablish COE.

What religion in public organisations................I see little if any.

As for tax breaks...................they registered charities and treated as such.

airship
13th Dec 2013, 13:51
Thanks for finally coming out rgbrock1: Discrimination this and discrimination that. I'm gay, I'm being discriminated against. I'm bi-sexual, I'm being discriminiated against. I'm black, I'm this, I'm that. Waaah :E

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 13:59
That is established church getting a benefit so let state decide to disestablish COE.My point was that I am not free from religion. Thank you for proving it.
What religion in public organisations................I see little if any.Anything from chapels in hospitals to nativity plays at schools.
As for tax breaks...................they registered charities and treated as such.Circular argument. Why are they able to register as charities? Because they are religions. And of course, they need the cash...
http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/business/moneybox/2013/03/130314_MB_POPEFRANCIS_2.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/cq5dam.web.1280.1280.jpeg

racedo
13th Dec 2013, 14:06
No chapels in hospitals.
There are interdenominational places of worship where people can go along and pray or just sit in silence.
Open to religious and non religious.
Funny part on talking to a Hospital chaplain was that generally the people of no faith are the ones that wish to sit and talk. Often when a loved one is close to death or has just died and need someone to sit and listen.

As for organisations able to register as Charities it is because they provide a service to the community deemed acceptable to the Charities Commission.

Most airports which are private businesses offer a place of worship.................then again that maybe a desire of behalf of those flying to get there or a thanks that they did.

rgbrock1
13th Dec 2013, 14:13
Sorry to bust your bubble, airship, but I enjoy a nice pair of boobs, a nice warm...., I'm white anglo-saxon and strictly hetero. So, no coming out for me.

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 14:14
Mr. Chips,

My point is that it's ridiculous for state funded institutions such as universities to be complicit in segredation of any kind, it's not a forward thinking policy. We should be moving away from all such practices.

It's bad enough that it exists in places like golf clubs etc.

Men and women are equal and should be able to mix freely in a tolerant and equal society without fear of predujice.

I really don't see how separating people by gender, or any other means, serves any purpose, it just re-inforces difference.......

We're all the same.

Also it's a shame that educated people such as Islamic 'experts' who may deliver these lectures feel that delivering a lecture in a UK university demands that the students are separated.

Surely we should getting more modern thinking from those tasked with educating our students?

rgbrock1
13th Dec 2013, 14:17
StressFree wrote

I really don't see how separating people by gender, or any other means, serves any purpose, it just re-inforces difference.......

There aren't any difference between the genders? :eek: Well, last I looked one subtle difference is that the female gender have tits. Men usually don't. (Except for man boobs.) Shall we continue on with the subtle differences? :}

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 14:22
RGB,

Hmmm, I see your point, but in this context of attending a university lecture there should be no difference.

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 14:25
Stressfree the original article is a discussion about segregation, not a policy, not a rule, a discussion. The other occurrences are undocumented in this thread....

So what exactly is upsetting you?

rgbrock1
13th Dec 2013, 14:26
StressFree:

So you're going to tell me that if the below was attending a university lecture no one would know the difference and she would receive no untoward attention based on her gender? :}

http://photo-forum.net/sitepics/forum/2011-07/pxuz0668.JPG

MagnusP
13th Dec 2013, 14:32
No chapels in hospitals.
on talking to a Hospital chaplain

Riiigghhtt. . . .

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 14:56
It is not possible to accommodate the intolerant.

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 15:02
racedo - I don't really want to get into the nitty gritty as it takes away from the point I was making in the first place: my life absolutely is not free from religion. Its pernicious tentacles infiltrate every aspect of life from my freedom of speech to what my taxes are spent on, and now people think it may be able to dictate who others can and cannot sit next to. The sooner mankind grows out of these fairytales the better.

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 15:08
RGB,

Sir, I surrender...............

You win!

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 15:10
Mr. Chips,

I refer you the excellent post from PTT at 16:02.

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 15:20
yep, read that. Now kindly explain what you are getting so upset about.

There is not one single example in this thread of segregation, but lots of people getting upset about perceived slights....

So i ask you again, what exactly are you getting up about? tell you what, I'll clarify ...what exactly are you getting upset about with reference to this thread?

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 15:20
Fox3,

'It is not possible to accommodate the intolerant'

Sir, that says it all, in just a few words.

:D:D:D

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 15:26
Mr. Chips,

Let me explain.

I'm British, I'm a fairly decent chap who has travelled the World and seen what happens when societies endure segredation, whether it's by gender, caste, faith or whatever reason.

The very fact that this 'discussion' is on a UK menu is troubling. Why on earth are we, in the 21st century, are we even talking about this?

Have we not moved on? Do we not have a bigger society and a storng one to not need this sort of BS?

Let me ask you, what's your position? Do think it's OK?

Thats 'exactly' what troubles me.

Got it?

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 15:32
Well done Stress Free,that wasn't so hard was it?

Now,forgive all the questions, but did you actually read the article that the delightful Vee Tail posted a link to?

Gender segregation is not completely "alien to our culture", the leader of a universities organisation said as she defended guidance on the voluntary separation of men and women at events on campus.
Nicola Dandridge, the chief executive of Universities UK, insisted that institutions would not enforce segregation but if participants were happy to sit in separate groups that would be permitted as long as there was no disadvantage.
There is so much I could quote, but it does not enforce segregation, it discusses how to deal with a request for segregation. Nobody has posted an account of any enforced segregation happening in any UK University
But feel free to get offended.
As a religious man once said (Father Ted)
Down with this sort of thing

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 15:39
Chips,

Its the very fact that this on on our national agenda that bothers me.

Segredation is a red line - cross it and you lead the way to a dark place.

Not too hard to understand is it?

You are starting to seem like an apologist for this dreadful policy, be careful for down that road lies a route to a bad place.......

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 15:46
http://www.jesusandmo.net/strips/2009-05-01.jpg

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 15:48
Universities UK withdraws advice on gender segregation in lectures | Education | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/dec/13/universities-uk-withdraws-advice-gender-segregation)

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee24/MaxVest/backpedal.jpg

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 15:57
Stressfree WHAT POLICY?????? There is no policy, it was guidance, guidance on a hypothetical situation

Did you actually read the article,or are you just desperate to be outraged?

Capetonian
13th Dec 2013, 16:14
We are required to compile the following information for statistical purposes in order to comply with certain federal regulations relating to Equal Employment Opportunity and Affirmative Action requirements. The information you provide is strictly on a voluntary basis, and the content of the information will not affect your eligibility for employment. Likewise, if you choose not to provide this information it will not affect your eligibility for employment in any way. (therefore .. WTFP?)

For your reference:

•Hispanic or Latino - A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.

•White (not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa .

•Black or African American (not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa .

•Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander (not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the peoples of Hawaii , Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands .

•Asian (not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian Subcontinent, including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

•American Indian or Alaska Native (not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America ), and who maintain tribal affiliation or community attachment.

•Two or More Races (not Hispanic or Latino) - A person who identifies with more than one of the following, as defined above: White; Black or African American; Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander; Asian; or American Indian or Alaska Native.

Pali
13th Dec 2013, 16:16
I just wonder, is atheism or materialism a faith too?

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 16:18
I just wonder, is atheism or materialism a faith too?The atheist just believes in one fewer God than the theist...
http://www.stillthinking.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/the-flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 16:20
..and Alcoholism

I believe I'll have another beer......:ok:

vulcanised
13th Dec 2013, 16:23
Seems to me the problem is too many people with too little to do.

Pali
13th Dec 2013, 16:32
I asked because it would be hard to prove any of the concepts.

But if someone is trying to ban any religion from some place then it may support the idea that materialism is the only correct attitude. And I find this disturbing.

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 16:36
Chips,

Policy, thought process or whatever.

It's the fact we are even considering segredation in UK universities that troubles me. Why do you find that so hard to understand?

All are equal, whatever gender, faith, leaning. We should'nt be allowing this, whether it's a discussion or a policy, we must move on from these matters.

Clearly you have a problem here so get off the fence and say it.......

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 16:43
if someone is trying to ban any religion from some place then it may support the idea that materialism is the only correct attitude. And I find this disturbing.So would I if I thought that materialism were the only substitute for religion. I don't though. I think skepticism and critical thought are the relevant substitute here.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1497556_669539926402100_1293322876_n.jpg

cavortingcheetah
13th Dec 2013, 16:44
What is mildly ironic is that in Britain, the enfranchised male population gave women the vote as a thank you present for helping out with manual labour during the First World War.
As an incentive to work harder, that great hearted gesture has obviously been a brilliant achievement for men, enabling women to enter places of higher learning and benefit enormously from universities and colleges created and funded by men of learning and acumen down through the paths of Academe and British history.

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 16:46
the enfranchised male population gave women the vote as a thank you present for helping out with manual labour during the First World War. http://www.platformtennis.org/Assets/Assets/images/Cron_revisionist_history-299x288.jpg

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 17:05
Oh Stressfree,I'll try just once more, just once.

The original article does not consider segregation in Universities, it is discussing the ramifications of a guest speaker requesting such.

Seriously, did you actually read it, or did you just leap onto the outrage bus?

If there were to be a segregated speech at a Uni,its kind of easy for the students to deal with. Don't attend. Send a message.

My side of the fence is READ THE F:mad:G ARTICLE

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 17:08
It's bad enough that it exists in places like golf clubs etc.

Men and women are equal and should be able to mix freely in a tolerant and equal society without fear of predujice.

I really don't see how separating people by gender, or any other means, serves any purpose, it just re-inforces difference.......

We're all the same........No we are not :ok:



Ponder this if you would.

We remove all the supposed barriers in the Golf you imagine you know about. This includes digging up the ladies tees, removing all ladies competitions and disband the ladies committees etc and discontinue the Ladies H'capping system to bring it in line with the men.

We now tell all the ladies they have to enter all competitions along side their male counterparts, they are now subject to the same handicapping system and they all have to tee off from the same tee boxes.

Now globalise that concept and just how long do you think it will be before the utter dismay at the average female never ever being able to compete with the average male sees the total demise of the female golfer?

Now apply that across the sporting world and how long before the are no female athletes, footballers, cricketers, rugby players, tennis players etc etc etc.

At grass roots levels and in their junior years girls will be simply blown away by the boys across the sporting spectrum to the point that female participation at any sort of competitive level would wither on the vine.

Segregation is there for a very good reason and it's removal would be as daft as a daft thing on a daft day :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 17:10
My side of the fence is READ THE F:mad:G ARTICLE

Not often I agree with Chippy but this time he has it spot on :ok:

StressFree
13th Dec 2013, 17:23
Wow,

Lots of hit nerves here.

Park your anger and reflect upon the bigger issues.

Its like talking to a primary school class here. Switch off the BS and think folks.

Use you minds.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 18:44
I did, I thought things through, perhaps you should give it a try :ok::p

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 18:54
@ SFFP - There are, in general (and I could get into the statistics here if you want), differences between men and women physically. To that end there are many sports where it is appropriate to segregate; in some of those men do better, and in others women do better.
We're not talking about sport, though, we're talking about listening to a talk. At the most basic level this involves the use of our ears, and at the highest level it involves the use of our brains, with an ability to keep your eyes open somewhere in the middle there in terms of difficulty (depending on the talk). Unless you are suggesting that there is a statistical and/or reasonable basis for differentiating between men and women based on any of the skills used during such a talk in a similar manner to there being a statistical and/or reasonable basis for differentiating between men and women in sport then your analogy is a non sequitur.

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 19:10
Stress, the only nerve you have hit with me is the "have you read the article" one.....


Have you?

Oktas8
13th Dec 2013, 19:28
Just to throw a curve ball here...

Separating the sexes for the purposes of seating in an auditorium is a cultural practice as much as a religious one. (I grew up in central Africa, where it was the norm for all religious ceremonies and most civic ones too.)

I think the idea is to preserve the illusion of a) morality for the unmarried and b) removing sexual distractions.

Mock it if you like, but it's a cultural artifact in many parts of the world. Religions tend to either enforce or weaken certain cultural practices, but the underlying practices are not created by the religion.

It's unfortunate that the West tries to separate religion from culture. It can't be done, usually.

radeng
13th Dec 2013, 20:42
I had the argument with mrs radeng

'Why do you want to encourage women to be engineers? It's poorly paid, is considered a low skill job even though it isn't, and has no respect shown to it?"

"It's still better paid and better regarded than most jobs historically available to women."

I still maintain that engineering in the UK is a fine profession for someone with an adequate private income.....even for a woman, who I would expect to have the ability to do much better!

Although I do know of a girl who at the age of 15 said that she wasn't clever enough to do electronics at university - so at age 25, she got her PhD in mechanical engineering.......

vee-tail-1
13th Dec 2013, 21:35
Nicola Dandridge is the chief executive of Universities UK, the representative organisation for the UKs universities, which gives them policy guidance.

She completely failed to grasp the fact that gender discrimination (like racial discrimination) is unacceptable in the UK.

She is the chief executive! …. a leader, a person with power to make decisions about policy… FFS all she had to do was to say “Gender discrimination is unacceptable in UK universities, requests for segregation will be refused”

Instead she obfuscated, consulted lawyers, considered the PC aspects, thought about how it might affect her image and career, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

I say again this person is unfit for office and should resign.

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 21:37
I say again this person is unfit for office and should resign.
And your qualificationsVeetail that support your ability to make this assessment?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 21:39
VT1 - It's worse than that - she's a lawyer and an equality specialist!

Universities UK - Universities UK appoints new Chief Executive (http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/highereducation/Pages/NewCEO.aspx#.UquL3vRDt8E)

How wrong can one person be??!

Mr Chips - you'd better add the PM to your list of "and your qualifications are?"

Universities UK withdraws advice on gender segregation in lectures | Education | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/dec/13/universities-uk-withdraws-advice-gender-segregation)

and the Minister for Education

Michael Gove: university gender segregation is 'pandering to extremism' | Politics | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/13/michael-gove-university-gender-segregation)

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 21:46
Fox3help me out, just direct me to where the Prime Minister called for anyone's resignation.... oh, he didn't. Just Veetail then.

Universities UK said a controversial case study setting out the guidance was being withdrawn while it reviewed its stance, but insisted the legal position remained unclear on whether the voluntary separation of men and women could be allowed at events such as lectures on Islam by visiting speakers.
(my bold)

It is guidance, not a policy.

All aboard the outrage bus...

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 21:46
We're not talking about sport, though,

Stressfree and I were, do keep up:ok:

If you can spot a single reference by me in this thread as to the intellectual inadequacies of women compared to men please feel free to share :ok:

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 21:49
SFFP - Assuming I take that at face value and accept that you were simply heading into an off-topic cul-de-sac rather than trying to use sport as analogous, do you suggest segregation can be justified in arenas such as those about which the thread was created?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 21:51
Mr Chips - I was being careful. The PM and Minister for Education are also unqualified to call for the advice to be withdrawn. I was not agreeing with VT1 on the point of resignation.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 21:54
SFFP - Assuming I take that at face value and accept that you were simply heading into an off-topic cul-de-sac rather than trying to use sport as analogous, do you suggest segregation can be justified in arenas such as those about which the thread was created?

PTT,

Quite simply put, if those that it directly affects discuss and come to an agreement on the matter then what business is it of the Rabid Dailyfail masses?

Mr Chips
13th Dec 2013, 21:57
Fox3understand now.

Cameron loves to board the outrage bus......

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 22:02
SFFP - nicely dodged. Care to answer the question? Is there a rational (i.e. not based on the alleged "holiness" of some tome or tale) justification for segregation by sex in the intellectual arena?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 22:08
Yes, sorry I wasn't clear there.

I don't see any point in demanding resignations these days. Even with those who resign voluntarily, to the best of my recollection only Estelle Morris and Peter Carrington have resigned on grounds of self-admitted failures in office, and both were then appointed to the House of Lords - I ask you!

I do see the point in asking the board who hired Nicola Dandridge "Given her qualifications, did you not hire her to avoid exactly the situation you now find yourselves in?"

Their reply doesn't matter - Asking the question in public will do.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 22:10
and we should fight tooth and nail any attempt by outsiders to impose their warped ideology on us.


Impose, sorry but in that article I was not aware of any suggestion of imposition :confused:

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 22:10
John Smith - there is no need whatsoever to proscribe any religion by further laws. All that is needed is for existing laws to be enforced.


.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 22:17
SFFP - nicely dodged. Care to answer the question? Is there a rational (i.e. not based on the alleged "holiness" of some tome or tale) justification for segregation by sex in the intellectual arena?

Dodged :confused::confused:

I will re state as you clearly missed it the first time

If the matter is discussed openly by those it is going to directly affect and a consensus is reached then what possible concern can it be of you and I :confused:

Consensual segregation happily exists in the non DailyFail World and to use my previously used analogy please feel free to quote the masses of females sports folks who seek equality..............:p

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 22:21
Yep, dodged. I asked for your opinion.

Personally I can see no justification for it, but if people choose to segregate themselves then they should crack on as long as it does not inconvenience others.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 22:32
Yep, dodged. I asked for your opinion.

Personally I can see no justification for it, but if people choose to segregate themselves then they should crack on as long as it does not inconvenience others.

Dodged :confused:

My opinion is

Personally I can see no justification for it, but if people choose to segregate themselves then they should crack on as long as it does not inconvenience others

Read my contributions on here and show me where we disagree :ok:

cavortingcheetah
13th Dec 2013, 22:42
Nicola Dandridge is right of course. Gender segregation is not alien to British 'culture'. In fact, it is ingrained at national levels.
The UK government implements policies of gender quotas in order to be seen, as a matter of policy, to be discriminating against intelligent, hard working males from the private educational sector.

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 22:43
@ SFFP - Good. I'm glad I could so eloquently state your opinion for you...

Why do separate areas need to be provided, then? Why should a lecturer be able to ask for it? Surely if people don't want to sit next to other people then they are big enough to manage that themselves within an auditorium? These people are at university, not kindergarten. If you don't want to sit next to person X then... don't!

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 22:48
The UK government implements policies of gender quotas in order to be seen, as a matter of policy, to be discriminating against intelligent, hard working males from the private educational sector.

..except in the Cabinet, of course!!

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 22:53
@ SFFP - Good. I'm glad I could so eloquently state your opinion for you...

Why do separate areas need to be provided, then? Why should a lecturer be able to ask for it? Surely if people don't want to sit next to other people then they are big enough to manage that themselves within an auditorium? These people are at university, not kindergarten. If you don't want to sit next to person X then... don't!

Step back and imagine you hadn't read the DailyFail article.....

If a White Anglo non religious guest speaker from another country asks for a particular brand of water, a non alcoholic drink, a vegetarian meal or whatever would you take offence at that request :confused:

But in this instance the suggestion is that in order to fully understand other cultures meaning we may have to offer, offer as opposed to impose compromise.

And part of that offer is ensuring that those that compromise are doing so of their own free will.......

Not sure in the grown up world where I am seeing the downside here:ok:

PTT
13th Dec 2013, 22:57
@ SFFP - I haven't actually read the Mail article. You'd have to pay me a fair amount of cash to read anything in that rag.

It is sufficient compromise to say "people may sit wherever they wish". It allows those who wish to be segregated to sit away from those from whom they wish to be segregated. Any request regarding the seating arrangements which comes from the one person who doesn't need a seat is an attempt at the imposition of his will on others.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Dec 2013, 22:59
The mere suggestion that segregation might be introduced when a group wishes to listen to a warped diatribe from a fundamentalist is an imposition in itself.

John,

Whilst I respect your entitlement to your opinion the notion that every guest speaker, I notice you mention no colour, creed or religion in your paintbrush, but not everyone is a bad person :ok:

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Dec 2013, 23:07
JS- I understand your viewpoint, but I feel the more fundamental point is that no law should be passed which is not then enforced, as failure to do so undermines the Rule of Law itself.
Laws already exist which enable anyone practicing strict observance of most Religious texts (not just Islam) to be arrested. They should be enforced.
You may be aware that the Koran requires muslims who cannot freely practice their religion to move to a country where they can. Logically, this should see the extremists leaving almost immediately after the existing laws are enforced. Having non-extremist religious types around is arguably a good thing in the long term (generational). It seems to have turned the state religion around:

"Are you religious?"
"No"
"I'll put you down as CofE then"

Krystal n chips
14th Dec 2013, 05:11
I am sick to the back teeth of the UK bowing at the altar of political correctness. I couldn't give a **** quite frankly what these religious nutcases want. This is our country, and we should fight tooth and nail any attempt by outsiders to impose their warped ideology on us.

It is absolutely disgraceful that this matter has even been debated. As I've said before, Islam is incompatible with our way of life. It is a dangerous cult, and we are letting it pervade ever deeper into our society. Only when a political party is brave enough to tackle the issue head on and proscribe Islam by legislation, setting appropriate sanctions for offenders, will we start to take back our country

How very thoughtful or you to exemplify the warped ideology that you feel needs to be fought.

Are you a U.K.I.P. PR person perchance...... or just your everyday quintessential English retro fantasist ?

cavortingcheetah
14th Dec 2013, 05:55
Those sentiments, #98, are far from those that would be representative of a UKIP supporter. They do however have much in common with those expressed by working class labour and those on benefit who see their scrounging opportunities jeopardised by unworthy claimants from foreign lands.
As for retro fantasy, perhaps there should indeed be a little more of the old British pluck and gun boat diplomacy about. Britain has a long historical tradition of paying money to foreign powers in order to avoid trouble, bribing its way through history. There's nothing wrong with that of course but nowadays the country simplistically pays out vast chest loads of gold in order to encourage the human problems of the rest of the world to reside within its own borders.
If the UK government practices gender discrimination as an official if sotto voce policy principle, it's probably to assuage the complexes of various religious groups whose members live in the UK and who have a slightly different view of the place of women in society than is thought to be politically correct locally.

PTT
14th Dec 2013, 07:29
Laws already exist which enable anyone practicing strict observance of most Religious texts (not just Islam) to be arrested. They should be enforced.
You may be aware that the Koran requires muslims who cannot freely practice their religion to move to a country where they can. Logically, this should see the extremists leaving almost immediately after the existing laws are enforced.Laws also exist at every level which allow freedom of religion. There's that legal dichotomy again...
This is why I'd prefer freedom from religion. No special pleading just because you think there is some giant daddy-fairy up there looking over you, no legal requirement to protect your own little fairy story from the ridicule of others and no justification for the imposition of your will on others based on the alleged ancient ramblings of some semi-literate nomads.
"Are you religious?"
"No"
"I'll put you down as CofE then""Don't you f***ing dare" is my usual response. The answer is "no".

cavortingcheetah
14th Dec 2013, 10:39
It's perfectly possible to be a practising Satanist and a member of the Church of England, all at the same time. Indeed, in these days of women bishops and happy clappers, there are many who would fail to see any distinction at all between either.
Nonetheless, when filling in admittance forms at places such as hospitals, the purpose is to determine how you would like your last rites, if any,conducted. For that reason I always opt for being a Roman Catholic for I would prefer the smell of incense in my nostrils as I move on to the divine hereafter rather than the smell of the patient in the bed next to me.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
14th Dec 2013, 10:44
I must remember to put down 'Norse' then. I'd love to depart this life p!ssed out of my head, surrounded by blonde lovelies, watching the hospital staff trying to get a Viking longboat onto the ward.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
14th Dec 2013, 10:59
Since when..?
Name a non-sexist religion

cavortingcheetah
14th Dec 2013, 11:01
Homosexuality?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
14th Dec 2013, 11:02
Being on your knees occasionally isn't sufficient to make it a religion.

StressFree
14th Dec 2013, 12:37
Caco,

:D:D:D:D

racedo
14th Dec 2013, 13:57
Nonetheless, when filling in admittance forms at places such as hospitals, the purpose is to determine how you would like your last rites, if any,conducted. For that reason I always opt for being a Roman Catholic for I would prefer the smell of incense in my nostrils as I move on to the divine hereafter rather than the smell of the patient in the bed next to me.

You will have to ask hospital to notify priest as hospital will not do so on its own.

You planning ahead ?

racedo
14th Dec 2013, 13:59
Homosexuality?

Thats not a religion, more a lifestyle choice but give it 20 years and Govt will make it a religion at which point in time it will lose all its protection and get abused.

Tankertrashnav
14th Dec 2013, 14:18
Listened to a male Muslim apologist for this patriarchal sexual division nonsense being intellectually eviscerated by a young Muslim woman on the Today programme on Radio 4 yesterday.


I listened to that programme, and "intellectually eviscerated" describes it well. In the end he was reduced to bluster.

The trouble with the Muslim faith in this sort of situation is that unlike the other major Abrahamic faiths there is no recognisable hierarchy, with nobody at the top such as the Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, Chief Rabbi etc to give a lead, and different imams will interpret the Koran and other writings in different ways, often to suit their own agenda. I know this happens with loony sects in the Christian faith (Jehovah's witnesses and blood transfusions, etc) but it's a more widespread problem with Muslims.

To counter the idiot referred to above, The East London Mosque, the biggest in Britain, has come out and roundly condemned Muslim vigilante groups in the Brick Lane area trying to inflict Sharia law on Muslim shopkeepers who sell alcohol, people drinking in the street, etc.

TBirdFrank
14th Dec 2013, 17:42
Tell you what - if that's what any bigot preacher errr sorry - "speaker" wants, then there's a sure fire solution

Let the audience, male and female, white, black and any indeterminate colour in between turn up in full hijab.

End of problem - n.est c' pas :cool: