Out of position aircraft?

[TurboTomato]

Looks like Gatwick is getting some of Heathrow's long haul diverts due to fog - just seen Cathay and Singapore Airlines 777s arrive on 26L, both being airlines that don't operate out of Gatwick.

So my question is - what happens to these aircraft for their next flight? Short positioning flight to Heathrow when it's possible and a delay/cancellation of the return flight? Bus the next flight passengers from Heathrow to Gatwick and fly back out of Gatwick? Or fly back to base empty (but surely that would lose a huge amount of revenue)?

Cheers,

[Talkdownman]

EPSOM 2 ??

[DaveReidUK]

Both SIA308 and CPA257, which diverted to Gatwick earlier today, have positioned to Heathrow within the last couple of hours.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<EPSOM 2 ??>>

Sounds good!

[pax britanica]

What happens about flight drew hours- surely anything more than a couple of hours delay puts the inbound operating crew out of hours or can they get an exemption as the transit to LHR is so short (but quite tricky I would imagine in terms of high workload).
Sending the outbound crew to Gatwick to collect the plane , transit to LHR and fly back to HK or similar I imagine is even more problematic.

[TurboTomato]

Thanks Dave. Would the passengers still have been on board?

[wiggy]

can they get an exemption as the transit to LHR is so short (but quite tricky I would imagine in terms of high workload).

Can't talk for the specifics of this case but the "exemption" is usually built into the (Government approved) operator's Flight Time Limitation scheme in the guise of captain's discretion to increase the duty period. Once you've hit that it's end game...

[DaveReidUK]

Thanks Dave. Would the passengers still have been on board? The arrivals screen on the Heathrow website eventually showed both incoming flights as "landed" at the relevant time, so I would infer that they came in from LGW with the pax still on board.

[wiggy]

I don't know the specfics on those flights but there has been at least one occasion when the authorities at LGW have insisted on pax staying on board pending the arrival of a "fresh" crew to shuttle the diverted aircraft to it's ultimate destination of LHR.

There's also the issue of handling agents, cargo/baggage handling and the likes...

[Nicholas49]

What happens if the airline in question does not have stand-by crew at or anywhere near LGW (in this case)? And the captain's discretion to operate extended hours has lapsed? Must the crew rest and the same crew operate the aircraft once rested?

[Duchess_Driver]

What happens if the airline in question does not have stand-by crew at or anywhere near LGW (in this case)? And the captain's discretion to operate extended hours has lapsed? Must the crew rest and the same crew operate the aircraft once rested?


An aircraft can not be operated without a properly rested crew. If there is no 'rested' crew to operate it then it will have to stay where it is until the appropriate rest period has been reached. For the same crew, this rest period is usually a minimum 12 hours but must be at least as long as the preceding duty period.

These Flight and Duty periods are defined by the Authority responsible for the AOC and Operator themselves but the operators FTLs cannot be less restrictive than the Authority.

[pax britanica]

Having raised the issue of crewing and with the added comments it would seem that any significant delay at the diversion airport could become an operational nightmare unless a spare crew available somehow . A flight from Sin or Hkg is 12-14 hours depending on time of year so the duty time is already pretty much taken up and I imagine a delay of more than 4 hours means 18 or so hours on duty and no Captains discretion ? And then the crew on the plane have been on duty for say 17 hours and have to have another 17 hours rest as a minimum.
A lot of good reasons to try and avoid diverting if at all possible I guess

[Jn14:6]

On our FTLs, a 4 man crew (with crew rest facilities) allows 18 hrs duty for 1 sector, reducing by 45 mins for a second sector. On top of this the Commander MAY use discretion of up to two hours.
The CX turned round in around an hour and a half, so crew hours still OK.

[meadowrun]

For short period fog disruptions, re-positioning of aircraft would be the norm. For extended fog operations at alternate airport, there likely would be arrivals and departures from the alternate. Have done 4 day fog ops in the past and it makes for a heavy workload for all concerned at a small airport. Rows of wide-bodies at an airport used to mainly light aircraft activity is a sight and the logistics involved are a nightmare.

[Hartington]

Sometimes weather can be predictable. In such circumstances an airline will sometimes be able to position a crew to take over the flight. For instance, BA have been known to position a crew out to Helsinki to meet a 747 en route from Singapore. It's usually related to head winds (too strong to allow a non stop flight to Heathrow) but it saves an out of position aircraft at somewhere like Brussels when the plane has to divert due to low fuel.

[Nicholas49]

I'd like to ask one more question on this, if I may.

I have sometimes wondered what does an airline do when there is crew illness down-route at a "long-haul" (i.e. very far away) destination? Say, for example, a B777 crew are due to operate a flight from Singapore to Heathrow, and one of the first officers does not feel fit to fly, for whatever reason. The airline does not have any standby crew at the departure airport or indeed anywhere near it. All it has is the crew who have completed their "slip" and are due to operate back to LHR.

What happens? Does the airline put a standby FO at LHR on the next flight out to Singapore? They would of course then need to rest there before being able to operate back. Or do you simply have to wait until the FO is better and can operate the flight?

I hope you see what I'm driving at. I am just curious to know what contingencies an airline has for this particular type of situation. It's not the same as where, at LHR, you have a crew illness and you can call on anyone on stand-by to take over!

Nick