Ouch.... seems a Harsh sentence

[NutLoose]

Soldiers jailed after sit-down protest during parade


A group of soldiers has been imprisoned for staging a mutiny on parade in front of 1,000 people.
Sixteen servicemen from the Yorkshire Regiment 1st Batallion complained that they were “led by muppets” and sat down when ordered to stand to attention while on tour in Kenya.
The soldiers pleaded guilty of disobeying a lawful command, which carries a maximum ten-year sentence.
The ‘ringleader’, Cpl Anthony Brown, was dismissed from the Army and ordered to serve 60 days in military detention as a judge said he had “abused” his power.
Lance Cpls Miles Smith and Steven Tidesley also got 60 days at Bulford military court in Wiltshire, while the remaining 13 privates were given 40 days.
At the time of the protest, the soldiers were in 1st Battallion. However, following army restructuring the 1st has now become the 2nd.




Soldiers jailed after sit-down protest during parade (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/soldiers-jailed-after-sit-down-protest-during-parade)


He said problems surfaced when their commanders got drunk before a 16-mile training march in freezing conditions in the Brecon Beacons, mid-Wales, last winter.
The troops were furious at finding the pair – named as Captain Stanton and second-in-command Sergeant Scott Dyson - sleeping off their hangovers at the finish line instead of greet their returning soldiers.
Members of the 1st Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment pictured in Southern Iraq in 2007

Tensions boiled over at the end of the Askari Thunder training exercise on the plains of Kenya on February 12, the court heard.
Shortly before a parade at the main British base, the 16 soldiers decided to protest against the 'grievances' they felt.
As they went through their drills, a ringleader shouted 'sit down' and the dissenters dropped to ground. Commanders ordered each man in turn to stand up but were ignored.
Col Whitwham said: 'There was a feeling they were not being appreciated, that they were not being well managed.


Read more: Soldiers stage mutiny | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520937/Soldiers-stage-mutiny.html#ixzz2n5f6QArB)

[Courtney Mil]

I'll bet he didn't see that coming!

[downsizer]

Why is that a harsh sentence for disobeying a lawful order?

[500N]

dowbsizer

When I read it yesterday, I didn't think it was harsh.


They not only disobeyed a lawful order but did it in the most public way.
I would have thought other ways existed to redress the soldiers beefs ?

[goudie]

Ooops! That's a career or two with a question mark hanging over them.


I would have thought other ways existed to redress the soldiers beefs ?
Probably didn't get the answer they wanted. Whatever, the SNCO's should have been a bit more in touch with the current mood.

[Alpha Whiskey]

Not harsh at all. They disobeyed a lawful command and in fact did so in collusion with each other and seemingly led by an NCO who should have been taking lawful steps to address the issues through the chain of command.


The whole sorry event must bring into question the quality of leadership within that platoon.

[Wrathmonk]

Whilst I suspect there is more to this than is being openly reported I wonder how this would have been dealt with in 'the good old days' that people keep talking about on Prune? My guess is there wouldn't have been any charges raised, thus no opportunity to take it to CM, but more a bit of 'good old fashioned attitude re-adjustments' at the hands of the discip staffs.

[Courtney Mil]

My guess is there wouldn't have been any charges raised, thus no opportunity to take it to CM

Certainly not! I'm not dealing with it.

[racedo]

If every person who has every been "led by muppets" was to protest then one wonders whether anybody would ever do anything.

In this case it would suggest they were being "managed" though even that is a stretch rather than being "led".

One hopes that the so called "Muppets" have been dealt with via ways not required to be made public.

[SASless]

The whole sorry event must bring into question the quality of leadership within that platoon.

I would suggest the real problem lay much higher than within the Platoon.


The soldiers pleaded guilty of disobeying a lawful command, which carries a maximum ten-year sentence.


Ten Years.....pretty much what Murder gets you in the Marines!

[Union Jack]

Commanders ordered each man in turn to stand up but were ignored.

Irrespective of what led to the sad situation described, I can't help feeling that there's something very wrong about exacerbating it in this way. It always used to be drummed into naval officers that any order which appeared to have been ignored or disobeyed should not be repeated in order to avoid aggravating the situation, which is exactly what appears to have happened here.:=

That said, and curiously enough, I cannot remember ever having to give what I would describe as a direct order, other of course than a helm or engine order .....:hmm:

Jack

[Stuff]

The sentence seemed inevitable, imagine if they had pooh-poohed it:

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major, who got pooh-poohed, made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cos it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment. Morale totally destroyed... by pooh-pooh!

[NutLoose]

Maybe they mistook the command and thought he said Parade Detention, not Attention...

I bet it was a sight to see, suprised as said they never simply moved everyone fwd and carried on without them, still think 30 days and out would have been fairer.
They were rather foolish full stop, thinking about it they could have simply screwed the parade up without dropping themselves in it, a miss understood command and marching on as the others turn etc or ticktocking etc would soon. Indeed there was always a way to make those that you feely wronged by look a Cnut.

I knew someone on my old Squadron charged for something petty, he was awarded a derisory punishment and sniggered at it, he was marched out, charged and marched back in for sniggering, he simply said he tried to contain a Sneeze in his defence, at the will you accept my punishment he elected for court martial..... Charge dropped.

[SASless]

Simply a Command Dissension event.


Sounds like the result of Combat Soldiers being confronted with Peace Time Army Garrison Life.:uhoh:

There is scant time for Chicken **** in combat.....but in Garrison....it comes by the Truck Load.

[gr4techie]

Ouch.... Seems a bit harsh.

If you think today's punishment is harsh. I bet as recent as WW1 the commanders would have got their Webley Revolver out (and not to use on themselves).

I recently found out, it's how the phrase "decimate" originated.
Decimation (Roman army) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_army))

[NutLoose]

Well as a Yorkshire battalion I'm surprised they never got an Ecky Thump.

It Won't exactly have done the two sleeping beauties careers a whole lot of good either.

Decimate top one in ten wasn't it?

[goudie]

"decimate"
There was a dramatic scene in 'The Hill' when the mutinying prisoners challenged
Harry Andrews, who played a magnificent role as RSM, to 'how was he going to decide who would be shot for mutiny?'
'Every tenth man' he bellowed at the mutineers. Absolute silence followed...mutiny over.

[Navaleye]

Sorry but totally unacceptable behaviour for professional soldiers. The system has evolved over hundreds of years to deal with such things. If you want to get slung out, lose pension etc, they did a pretty good job.

[Cows getting bigger]

Mutiny carried a death sentence in the UK until as late as 1998.

I think these guys got off quite lightly.

[glad rag]

The system has evolved over hundreds of years to deal with such things.

What? the grievances that were ignored for how long, or the sitting down bit??

[mad_jock]

Didn't the Ghurkhas have the same issue with one of their Rupert's and solved the problem by rolling a live pin pulled frag grenade under the toilet door while he was using it.

It could have been one of "those" tales about them though.

Only time our lot caught one of the management team sleeping it off said management person got three days worth of steaming post use compo rations deposited in his battle bowler. Not a word was said afterwards and he didn't do it again.

If sunray had found out his life would have been hell for weeks mind.

[goudie]

The Duke of Wellington knew how to handle his troops



http://monologues.co.uk/Illustrations/stars1.jpg SAM SMALL
(Pick oop tha' musket)
by
Stanley Holloway

It occurred on the evening before Waterloo,
And troops were lined up on parade,
The Sergeant inspecting 'em he was a terror,
Of whom every man was afraid

All excepting one man who was in the front rank,
A man by the name of Sam Small,
And 'im and the Sergeant were both 'daggers drawn',
They thought 'nowt' of each other at all

As Sergeant walked past he was swinging his arms,
And he happened to brush against Sam,
And knocking his musket clean out of his hand,
It fell to the ground with a slam

'Pick it up' said Sergeant, abrupt like but cool,
But Sam with a shake of his head,
'Seeing as tha' knocked it out of me hand,
P'raps tha'll pick the thing up instead.

'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket,'
The Sergeant exclaimed with a roar,
Sam said 'Tha' knocked it doon, reet! then tha'll pick it oop,
Or it'll stay where it is on't floor

The sound of high words very soon reached the ears,
Of an Officer, Lieutenant Bird,
Who says to the Sergeant, 'Now what's all this ere?'
And the Sergeant told what had occurred.

'Sam, Sam, pick up tha' musket'
Lieutenant exclaimed with some heat,
Sam said, 'He knocked it down reet! Then he'll pick it oop,
Or it stays where it is, at me feet

It caused quite a stir when the Captain arrived,
To find out the cause of the trouble,
And every man there, all except Sam,
Was full of excitement and bubble

'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket',
Said Captain for strickness renowned,
Sam said 'He knocked it doon, Reet! so he'll pick it up,
Or it stays where it is on't ground

The same thing occurred when the Major and Colonel,
Both tried to get Sam to see sense,
But when Old Duke 'O Wellington came into view,
Well the excitement was really quite tense

Up rode the Duke on a loverly white 'orse,
To find out the cause of the bother,
He looked at the musket and then at Old Sam,
And he talked to Old Sam like a brother

'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket'
The Duke said as quiet as could be,
'Sam, Sam pick oop tha' musket,
Coom on lad, just to please me

'Alright Duke,' said Old Sam, 'just for thee I'll oblige,
And to show thee I meant no offence',
So Sam picked it up, 'Gradely, lad' said the Duke,
'Right-o boys... let battle commence.'

[Blue Bottle]

There is no excuse for this but would love to hear the full back story on it...

[Wrathmonk]

Mad Jock

Slight thread drift....

A grenade thrown into the office I believe (see post 244 here (http://www.arrse.co.uk/military-history-militaria/127049-battle-dishonours-disgraces-25.html) - can't find the original quote) although at post 274 of the same thread it suggest the grenade was part of a 'booby trap' in the Brit OC's desk drawer.

And information on the "Hawaii Incident" referred to in the above link can be found here (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1986/oct/21/7th-gurkha-rifles)

[Romulus]

Assuming the info is correct a token 2-3 days should have been given to the individual "other ranks" to make the point about obeying orders.

The sleepers should have been made to run the Beacons course until they passed in the required timeframe.

And then transferred to the most boring backward place the army currently has.

[Hydromet]

It seems that the Corporal had better leadership skills than the Captain and Sergeant, though...

[Navaleye]

No. Completely wrong. The Courts Martial handed down the appropriate award. The "alleged" army Captain would have been commanded by Major. Any such issue should have been brought to him. Suspect junior NCOs out of control. The correct action in my opinion. I don't know about the other forces, but in the Navy you would get a bad reception.

[Willard Whyte]

Respect can not be demanded, it is earned.

One hopes the officer and snco will receive the **it end of the posting stick and climb no further up the greasy pole.

[Navaleye]

The story reflects very badly on the Army and I suspect lots of investigations are underway. The forces hate bad publicity and someone will have to pay the piper.

[Hangarshuffle]

This happened way back in February 2013, and its only been done and brought to court now? Why the delay>? It stinks. (lack of lawyers as so many other cases involving military)?


Platoons/Divisions/Flights do not normally ever rebel against their NCOs in such a public way-especially in such a en masse, what happened to the much vaunted regimental system of here? (Apart from that it failed. Very badly and publically).


Most of the sympathy on the civvy forums goes with the young soldiers.


Hope its just a gash individual military unit, not a wider reflection on the whole military, but somehow I fear more stories like this in future. (A major decline is in place after all).


There are some very, very bad officers out there.


Hope those young lads-post porridge, **** the Army totally off and get the hell out, if I'm honest.

[NutLoose]

Everyone says there are correct procedures re a grievance etc, but be honest, if these guys went over their heads and complained what would have happened..... Probably not a lot, and then they would be stuck under the snit storm that would come down on them from those they had gone over.
What could you say, we believe they are unfit to command us? They slept while we did the exercise?

Far from saying it is all their doing and punishing them, the Army really needs to take a breadth, stand back, see what's gone wrong and fix it, the problem does not go away because you jail the perpetrators, because that simply means the problem has been swept under the carpet and still exists... Next time it may not be in a rural UK setting.

As said, you get some seriously bad officers both commissioned and not, I had the privilege to serve under one during my time and I wouldn't wish him on anyone, I wouldn't have let him mop the toilet floor let alone serve as an engineering officer... Don't get me wrong some if not most I worked with were superb, this guy simply was out of his depth and was clueless, unfortunately he was carried by those under him and looked good to those above him... I later heard he had a run in.

[racedo]

It seems that the Corporal had better leadership skills than the Captain and Sergeant, though...

Strange as it seems there is a lot of truth in it, in a warped way.

[mad_jock]

Just looked who they are made up from.

And I suspect whats happened is that the amalgamated orbat has been made up by some one on drugs. They will have swapped snco`s and officers around and kept the junior ranks in there established groups.

I suspect the junior ranks were green howards and the managment team were from one of the other foot regiments possibly the havercakes. There will have been a huge clash of culture between the light infantry and the line infantry mentality.

The howards division is due to be split up soon anway according to wiki. So it could be that tempory snco and ic were put in because the unit was being broken up anyway in 12 months. They will have kept the good ruperts/snco in the other two divisions which were to remain.

[NutLoose]

Yep, strange world, they were not charged for sitting down, simply for not getting up again, they should have obeyed the order got up, then sat down again.. :E

[Diablo Rouge]

There will be a far bigger story to this that is bound to make the Daily Comic in the coming days. The Commanders careers should also be 'over' if you ask me.
There will also be examples of peer pressure within the ranks to follow the lead, and one has to ask has this been considered in the outcome.

[Melchett01]

So they have thrown their careers away for a stupid act of petty disobedience. But one that should have got them all an A for courage and values on their next appraisal in some warped screwed up way.

The real problem here is not that they disobeyed an order, the problem is the unit and its so called leadership - as has been suggested already. That a captain and a sergeant had to order their troops to stand up shows just how far the rot had set in. Furthermore, that it went all the way to court martial does nothing to improve the credibility of the company and battalion. I would wager that the bigger problems started well before this incident and this was the final symptom rather than the problem. If the company and battalion leadership had been up to scratch, they would have seen things sliding and stepped in to arrest the decline and disciplined earlier at a lower level e.g. AGAI. Once it got to CM, there was only one outcome and it was always going to involve a heavy book being thrown at them for no other reason than to send a message but more importantly being seen to protect institutional reputation.

Unfortunately this is only going to become more and more common as bored squaddies are seen queuing outside Orderly Rooms on a Monday morning because the only fighting they can do now is over the weekend in the local boozer. I hope that the MOD has increased its AT budget! So what did happen to the captain and sergeant I wonder?

[mad_jock]

I think it happened at the time the Green Horwards were told there division was going to be dispanded. I bet that cpl thought he was going to get the sgt`s slot and didn`t get it. Wonder how many of the Green Horward Officers and snco went for redundancy and got it.

They all knew they were getting dispersed so there careers were finished anyway.

[Tiger_mate]

I can recall a Course whose collective ambition was to get a course rollicking off a Sqn Ldr boss who was a top bloke. Unfortunately for them, he knew the plan.

When they pushed their luck too far, he ordered each back to the Mess to reappear in No 1s. A victory for them incoming they thought.

He also asked the Sqn WO to do the same to be followed by 30mins remedial drill for the course on the flightline in No1s.

Followed by dismissal to return to the Mess, get changed and return to Sqn.
Not a disciplinary word was said. Nor did it ever need to be. The course toed the line thereafter.

Old School may be unfashionable but discipline behind the hangar has its place.

[mad_jock]

I don`t know if you can relate gun fodder ways of thinking to those our own.

They are tribal as hell and even though they have very complicated weapons systems etc they are still thick as :mad: and conditioned to do as the next rank up tells them.

[Skeleton]

The error of these soldiers ways and there correct punishment has found its way into the public domain.

I see no reason that if further investigation reveals they were in fact being given orders by "muppets" that any action action taken is also made public.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Rumour over on ARRSE reckons this has something to do with the PC and CSM turning up drunk on a winter night ex a few months before.

Sample size of one, but the only recent young Army Officer I've worked with was the most aggressively incompetent arsehole it's ever been my misfortune to encounter. I used to like 'em back in Cold War days.

[Willard Whyte]

It's sad to see the expected proportion of posters who only see in black and white. One might expect grayscale at least, but obviously colour would be a step too far for such a regimented bunch.

[Genstabler]

It seems from what I have read that the Battalion was going through a major reorganisation and amalgamation upheaval. That is a traumatic event for a proud Regiment with centuries of its history and traditions suddenly lost or discounted. Believe me, I know. Strong leadership from the top down is essential at such a time to establish new unit identity, pride and corporate loyalty.
That may be why it's discipline had broken down. It is clear that there was a leadership problem within this particular company and the section had lost trust, confidence in and respect for the officer and SNCO. However, by choosing to express their feelings so publicly, they left the authorities no choice but to come down on them publicly and like a ton of bricks. Any weakness would have given the wrong message.
The cpl showed he has a strong personality and could influence the toms, but that is not necessarily leadership. He completely misread the situation and showed disloyalty, disrespect, indiscipline and woefully bad judgement. He was an army NCO, not a trades unionist. He betrayed his men and his unit. He had to go.
Had he been wiser he could have had an informal chat with the CSM. The CSM could then have had an informal chat with the Company Commander. The OC would then have been aware of a problem and could have sorted out the officer and SNCO without resorting to official disciplinary action. That is what would have happened in my Battalion.
Be assured, the captain and sgt no longer have careers, though there will be no official action. In all likelihood the CO is finished too. A sad business for a once proud unit showing an inherent vulnerability within the traditional British Regimental system.

[baffman]

Just looked who they are made up from.

And I suspect whats happened is that the amalgamated orbat has been made up by some one on drugs. They will have swapped snco`s and officers around and kept the junior ranks in there established groups.

I suspect the junior ranks were green howards and the managment team were from one of the other foot regiments possibly the havercakes. There will have been a huge clash of culture between the light infantry and the line infantry mentality.

The howards division is due to be split up soon anway according to wiki. So it could be that tempory snco and ic were put in because the unit was being broken up anyway in 12 months. They will have kept the good ruperts/snco in the other two divisions which were to remain.With respect, the above and similar "I suspect" posts are complete nonsense.

Baffman.

[Tankertrashnav]

Whilst I suspect there is more to this than is being openly reported I wonder how this would have been dealt with in 'the good old days' that people keep talking about on Prune? My guess is there wouldn't have been any charges raised, thus no opportunity to take it to CM, but more a bit of 'good old fashioned attitude re-adjustments' at the hands of the discip staffs.

Not so in a case when I was a young rockape flight commander. I had to attend when one of my blokes was up before the station commander on a charge of using insubordinate language to an officer. He got a huge bollocking, and was then asked if he had anything to say. He wisely apologised profusely, whereupon said station commander gave him 14 days detention, and said if he hadn't apologised he would have had 28 days. This for a much lesser offence than these guys were charged with.

Mind you we were in Aden on active service which may have influenced the outcome.

[cargosales]

The cpl showed he has a strong personality and could influence the toms, but that is not necessarily leadership. He completely misread the situation and showed disloyalty, disrespect, indiscipline and woefully bad judgement. He was an army NCO, not a trades unionist. He betrayed his men and his unit. He had to go.
Had he been wiser he could have had an informal chat with the CSM. The CSM could then have had an informal chat with the Company Commander. The OC would then have been aware of a problem and could have sorted out the officer and SNCO without resorting to official disciplinary action. That is what would have happened in my Battalion.


If I'm reading it correctly then the Corporal wouldn't have achieved anything by having a 'quiet chat with the CSM' because the CSM was part of the problem. And the company Commander likewise.

There are definitely ways for airmen in specific trades to register dissatisfaction with their leaders so it does get noticed and acted upon but perhaps those ways are more limited if you're in the infantry.. ?

I remember a delightful Enginering Officer who was known throughout the service as being a complete and utter cnut. And he was. When posted to St Athan as a Jengo it took but a few weeks for his man management skills to lead those under his command to effectively bring things to a standstill.

Fortunately the Sengo noticed and had the wisdom to invite the Chief Tech into his office for 'a quiet chat' about the problem. There were no announcements but the Jengo was posted shortly after.

CS

[mad_jock]

This is a completely different kettle of fish.

This a staged event in front of a Brigadier inspecting.

Then all of them refuse charges and request CM's then plead guilty. So as the Brigadier was a witness he couldn't have anything to do with the board and neither could anyone else in the regiment. So its a complete airing of the regiments dirty washing to division level. Isn't there a number of CM's before a regiment is deemed to have a discipline problem and Division then has to take an active role.

This is taking on the command chain up to Major-General level and to be quite honest winning. It might very well mean that the regiment is split up one division worth of men getting sent north and the other south to get split up.

That's planning way way above your squaddies pay scale and knowledge.

What's happen is that 16 men have taken on a regiment and possibly destroyed it. They didn't care if they got chucked out without pension. The only thing they could have done worse was if the Duke of York was present.

What on earth did the Brigadier do when it happened? Did he step forward and deal with it or did he turn his back and walk away. If he walked away that's him finished as well.

[baffman]

More speculative nonsense, I'm afraid.

I won't go through it line by line but for one thing, the Brigadier wouldn't have had a role in the court martial anyway, nor would he have been required as a witness. Might I suggest there were more than enough witnesses present!

As for this:
What on earth did the Brigadier do when it happened? Did he step forward and deal with it or did he turn his back and walk away. If he walked away that's him finished as well. The Brigade Commander would have been start raving bonkers to follow that advice. This isn't that nice poem someone quoted earlier about Wellington.

[mad_jock]

Thank the lord I was never involved in infantry regiments then.

That's exactly what the brigadier did in Germany when there was a problem with one of the big workshops. The Brigadier REME BAOR stepped forward and commanded respect. The craftsmen were removed from the stag list, most of the power packs requiring splitting got backloaded to the UK. Overtime was cancelled and they got removed from the Orbat of the armoured cavalry and got on with there jobs fixing things instead of guarding them.

I still can't see the Yorkshire regiment surviving this and why should they if the management can let this happen.

[charliegolf]

They didn't care if they got chucked out without pension.

Objection M'Lud, speculation!

Look, our troops are fab- but some of them are as thick as molasses in January- they have shot people on video, and given nazi salutes in front of the flag. There's every likelihood (in my speculation) that they didn't think it through, and perhaps now very much care that they got chucked out. Unless that was the plan!

CG

[Genstabler]

Cargosales

If I'm reading it correctly then the Corporal wouldn't have achieved anything by having a 'quiet chat with the CSM' because the CSM was part of the problem. And the company Commander likewise.

You are reading it incorrectly. They were not the two in question. This was the Bn Recce Platoon. The Capt was the Platoon Commander and the SNCO was the Platoon Sergeant. The cpl should have gone to the Company Sergeant Major who would then have briefed the Company Commander, a Major who could then have sorted it out unofficially.

The Recce Pl is tasked directly by Bn HQ so, although it is in the HQ Company orbat, the Company Commander has limited day to day responsibility for it. He is, however, in their chain for admin and discipline.

After such a public display of failure in their Battalion I suspect that the CO, OC HQ Coy and OC Recce Pl are all looking for other jobs. Their careers are finished. If that is what the cpl and his co-mutineers wanted then they got their wish, but at what a cost. So unnecessary and stupid.

[500N]

Genstabler

That is my understanding of it as well.

And if not the CSM, the RSM. Must have been other NCO's who could
possibly have at least listened to the Cpl.

Either way, a major break down in everything.

[NutLoose]

But does anyone know if he approached the CSM with his grievance?

[downsizer]

Nutloose

You still haven't elaborated as to why you think its a harsh sentence?

[Willard Whyte]

Perhaps because he, amongst others, consider the accused's greivances to be legitimate.

[NutLoose]

Yes i do think they have been wronged in that there seems to have been a piss poor procedure in place to air their grievances, they must have known this would come out bad and the fact they have been driven to this last resort shows a total failing of the whole system. They call it a modern Army, unfortunately based on an antediluvian system.

I thought it should have been about 1/2 that, personally I cannot see the point in putting someone inside Colchester, (if it is indeed still there) when you are kicking him out of the Army.
I always thought punishment like that is to Rebrainwash you into the Armies way of thinking before you reintergrate back into the Army having supposedly learnt the error of your ways.. lets face it, they can shout and bark all they want at him at Colchester and it won't make a blindest bit of difference to him, all he has to do is sit down.

[Genstabler]

lets face it, they can shout and bark all they want at him at Colchester and it won't make a blindest bit of difference to him, all he has to do is sit down.
Yes, but he won't have colour TV in his en suite cell and a choice of kosher or cordon blue menus.

[SASless]

Oh my....such deprivation for forty days....then free.:uhoh:

Reading all the posts prompts me to ask a question.

When ever in the British Army....any Army for that matter....is it improper for a Corporal to bring a problem to a Sgt Major?

I am sure in every Army....the manner and tone of the complaint is hugely important....but in my Army and Marine Corps, that is exactly the role of the Sgt Major....to be the second line of communication about Enlisted Personnel's problems and and concerns.

It would appear to me....there were grave and significant problems in the Leadership of the entire Chain of Command.....clear up to Regimental Level.

Soldiers just don't sit down on the Job for no good reason. If the situation had gotten to that level....that tells you there was a complete failure of Leadership.

Far too often we have Commanders....and not Leaders.....and sadly the Failures seem to keep getting promoted for some inexplicable reason.

I have seen far more "Leadership" out of Lance Corporals than I have most Officers once they get past being a Platoon Leader.

[Genstabler]

....then free. And unemployed with a criminal record. Good career choice.

[racedo]

Perhaps because he, amongst others, consider the accused's greivances to be legitimate.

On reading of what people have posted there doesn't appear to be many who believe that the accused grievances weren't legitimate.

The issue is the way they have gone about airing their grievances with mass refusal to follow orders.

Incompetent leadership doesn't mean mutiny.

As indicated by others there is clearly a failure of leadership right through here.

It is not like you can accused people of cowardice because they were not refusing to fight or refusing to go to a hot zone.

[racedo]

Far too often we have Commanders....and not Leaders.....and sadly the Failures seem to keep getting promoted for some inexplicable reason.


Managers not Commanders is probably a better description............

[junket]

The reason they put them in the clinker before discharge is that it will go on their criminal record as having received a custodial sentence. MCTC is the punishment, discharge is the admin process - debate all you want the merits of that but the individuals were damn stupid to do what they did - not a surprise mind you as a majority in the Army are quite retarded!!

As for them being in the Recce Platoon - many that I have met from that cadre tend to be quite arrogant and swagger around as if they are SF. Good at soldiering they definitely are, but they also can be a problem to lead as well.

They got what they deserved; the Cpl showed poor leadership qualities when he should have tried to deal with it through other means; and there are plenty of them to try. If they had exhausted all avenues and this was the last resort, well that tends to be a different story.

And a final general sweeping statement - the Army can probably expect more of this sort of thing as they move from Ops to contingency (whatever that means!!)

[racedo]

The reason they put them in the clinker before discharge is that it will go on their criminal record as having received a custodial sentence. MCTC is the punishment, discharge is the admin process - debate all you want the merits of that but the individuals were damn stupid to do what they did - not a surprise mind you as a majority in the Army are quite retarded!!

In a way more worrying with the last comment especially after the Marine conviction.

[SASless]

Gen.....apparently the better option to staying in the Army to them. Which says something about the Army and its leadership I would suggest.

Any way you try to spin it....the message that gets slung out is the Army needs to reassess its situation re Morale, Discipline, and Leadership.

The Fish rots from the Head, remember....and far more effect can be had by "shooting a few Admirals than hanging many Matelots" or whatever it was said about the Royal Navy at one time.

The same concept applies to the British Army.....sack some Generals and the rest of the Officer Corps will take note. Commanding Officers at every level hold a very real obligation to look after the Troops....it is the very basic tenant of Military Leadership.

I have to assume you lot are taught that at Sandhurst are you not?

Or are you still able to purchase a Commission these days?

[Genstabler]

SSless

Another post full of professional respect, maturity, common sense, wisdom and subject knowledge from our little punchy friend from across the water.

[SASless]

Yet another refusal to address the points offered....but an attempt at personal insult which fails as usual.

What is it about some of you Brits....when an American offers the exact same criticism as made previously by a fellow Brit....you resort to such responses as you do but not to your fellows?

I suppose you might be part of the Officer Class that is being criticized and think it a personal attack somehow.....are you being over sensitive or just embarrassed by what happened and the public questioning of the situation that led to this sad event?

We had one well publicized instance of Troops refusing to comply with an Officer's Orders....filmed by a News Crew during the very late stages of the Vietnam War.

The Platoon Leader had issued orders for his unit to walk down a Trail deep in Bad Guy Country....a practice well understood to result in bad results as it sets the unit up for an Ambush. The Officer would not listen to reason....insisted...and the Troops refused. It took the Company Commander's intervention to get the Troops moving.

No one was at risk in the incident that is being discussed here....but the Leadership failure is just as plain. You cannot hide it....you cannot spin it.

You have an Army that is ending a 15 Year or so nearly continuous deployment to Combat, a harsh downsizing of forces, huge cuts in budget, cuts in Training and Equipment.....and that is going to cause problems.

We are having the same budget cutbacks and downsizing...but so far Morale and Discipline seems to be holding up....but we learned from our problems post-Vietnam.

Good Leadership is especially critical with all this going on.

Are your Lions being led by Donkey's again?

[M609]

As for them being in the Recce Platoon - many that I have met from that cadre tend to be quite arrogant and swagger around as if they are SF. Good at soldiering they definitely are, but they also can be a problem to lead as well.

A know problem in other nations armies as well :)

[ACW418]

I don't often agree with SASless says but in this instance I cannot help but agree with him.

Perhaps Genstabler should reflect on the fact that SAS has experience in the field in a war and has every right to comment on leadership or lack of it.

ACW

[tucumseh]

Would the RAF and RN please stop criticising the British Army. :E


While “only” a civvy, I am rather proud of the fact I have been formally disciplined twice, once each by senior RAF and RN officers, and received numerous adverse comments from them in annual reports, for refusing to obey lawful orders. I may actually be unique in the Civil Service.

In both cases, my offence was to refuse point blank to commit fraud. In my defence, I thought them illegal orders, but even more senior RAF and RN officers said not, confirmed by 6 Ministers, PUS and the Head of the Civil Service. That remains their decision to this day.

The Army declined to discipline me. Rather, they tended to listen and on the last occasion a Brigadier spoke for me at my hearing. He was ignored.

My point? The MoD has gone to the dogs, and this latest case is just another example. The Army is shown in a poor light, but I’ve seen much worse from the RAF and RN. And FAR worse from the Civil Service.

[ACW418]

Gen,

Well have you? Unusual for aircrew to have grunt like experience!

ACW

ps I have not as being a pilot in the Cold War does not qualify me.

As I commanded a VGS on an Army base for 10 years I have quite a lot of experience of said force.

Suggest we stop bickering as I agree with a lot of you edit.

[SASless]

You are more than welcome to argue about the relative merits of current Leadership....of course. That is the point....you don't.....you delight in making personal digs rather than discuss the issues using your experience as a base.

My opinions are formed from both first hand experience and from continuing education by extensive reading on such matters.

As I served in Vietnam, i am of course very interested in how that War was fought, and how Strategy, Tactics, Leadership, and Politics affected the conduct of the War.

I am quite comfortable in speaking to our failures.....God Knows it cost us plenty in Lives, Limbs, and other very important ways.

When i look at the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I see way too many parallels to that of Vietnam. On some levels, primarily political and at the very senior levels of our Military Leadership.....the very same mistakes are being made yet again.

The British and American Military Forces are again in Transition....and holding it all together is going to take honest evaluations and some very strong backbone.

It is not just 19 Squaddies parking their Butts here.....it is a very large Red Flag being waved.

We have our Marine Snipers thing, Your Marine A, the 19, our guy that murdered a dozen or so Villagers, Drone Strikes hitting Wedding parties, Base closings, disbanding of entire units, proposed cuts in Pay, Benefits, Pensions, curtailment or canceling of Training, whole units being non-combat ready, mothballing of Ships,.....and a continuing or growing threat from those hostile to us.

We need the best Leadership we can get.....white washing the situation is only going to make things far worse.

As always....the ones that have "led" us here....are the ones that are in the position to make the changes....and that is not going to happen unless they are forced to do so.

[Genstabler]

ACW

Yes, I have. I was commissioned into a British infantry regiment and spent 34 years as a soldier, of which 4 were as an Army helicopter pilot.

[Genstabler]

ACW

Suggest we stop bickering as I agree with a lot of you edit.

Absolutely. Agreed.

I mustn't keep rising to you know whom, but he's a bit like an annoying mosquito buzzing round your head. Ignore or swot? Ignore I think.

[Biggus]

Genstabler,

..... and are you actually 72?

[Genstabler]

When I last looked.

[Willard Whyte]

The issue is the way they have gone about airing their grievances with mass refusal to follow orders.

As already pointed out, we don't know what actions they took previously. And again, as pointed out, if they resorted to mutiny after first using 'conventional' pathways then the blame lies higher up the command chain.

We probably won't know until they are released from the clink and hopefully spill the beans to the press. The military cannot operate in its own little world any more. Good.

[Surrey Towers]

With 18 years behind me and being a WO2 I feel distinctly uneasy about this affair.
1. Where was the CO?
2. Where was the RSM?
3. Was the platoon commander was not up to the job, as 'suggested' by the lads he commanded. Was that covered up?
4. Where and what did the 2ic, the colour sergeant, do about there own apparent drunkeness and why didn't they remove themselves?

The answer to all these questions seems to point directly at lack of discipline, a total lack of leadership and I don't think I can remember what Kings/Queens regs are concerning two platoon commanders drinking whilst on duty and not in a fit state to lead 16 squaddies. I can well imagine that they were somewhat pi**ed off with being led "by muppets."

The chain of command in this case was that the company Sgt, Major should have been informed and then the RSM. Someone then should have been put in the guard room but not the whole 16 in my view.

How can the regiment allow a SNCO and a Captain off the hook when neither of them were fit to command - I am afraid I have to assume that.

How did they get off the hook? Who helped them? The RSM, the CO, the Adjutant who?

This whole episode stinks of a massive cover up and both platoon commanders got away with it by meetings that would have bounced off all the regiment commanders 'what to do?

Disobeying a lawful order is bound to get you into trouble, look what happened in WW1 when a few hundred were executed for cowardice, or disobeying orders. Only to have them rescinded 4 or 5 years back. Times have changed and men are now allowed to air their grievances - this was IMHO such a case but it didn't happen on the day - WHY?

I think the corporal of the group should have taken this step. If he did who told him that there would be a court martial. As it turns out the court was harsh - most definitely.

The worst of this case is that the judge advocate has ruined careers but the senior officers walked away without answering the charges that should have been addressed to them.

I hope that this backfires when they are released and then they can bring the whole sorry mess into the open. It may then make some people who run the regiment sit up and take stock when it all comes out.

Not a long time to wait.

[Genstabler]

ST

I am sorry but I really do not understand a lot of your post. You say you are a WO2 but I infer from your posting history that you are not Army so you won't really understand how things work in a tribal organisation like a British infantry battalion. The rest of the Army probably don't either!

All I can say is that I am as sure as I can be that there will be no cover up conspiracy. That is not to say that they will wash their dirty linen in public, but believe me, it will be washed.

I am also sure that, even though they have not been subject to disciplinary action (what could they be charged with and on what evidence) the Pl Comd and the SNCO will not have got away with allowing their platoon to get into such a state that they mutinied in public in front of the Brigade Commander. The CO's career is also finished. After his Battalion pulled a stunt like that he ain't going anywhere. The RSM will not get a QM commission.

Whoever was responsible for what, a once proud Regiment's name is now mud. That will really hurt every officer and soldier in it for a very long time to come.

[Surrey Towers]

You say you are a WO2 but I infer from your posting history that you are not Army so you won't really understand how things work in a tribal organisation like a British infantry battalion. The rest of the Army probably don't either!

I was in the Army - both infantry and armoured battalions.

All I can say is that I am as sure as I can be that there will be no cover up conspiracy. That is not to say that they will wash their dirty linen in public, but believe me, it will be washed.

I think it will happen also but why did it occur at all and how do you know?

The regulations, although I do not have one now, show clearly what should happen but it was down to the platoon commander who showed, from where I sit, a dereliction of duty and lousy leadership.

I was trying a few days ago to get a feel of how the courts martial was ordered. The Brigader may have done so or it may have been ordered by the advocacy. THEN, I would agree that C/Sgt up will lose their jobs - then it would just be a case of how many.

As I said, we will not have to wait long to find out.

[Tiger_mate]

I was trying a few days ago to get a feel of how the courts martial was ordered.

The answer to that is probably a very simple one. The individuals get charged on the old 'the fact you are here makes you guilty' system, in which the punishment is always preceeded by "Do you accept my punishment?".

The individuals at this stage have a Right to refuse the punishment and opt for CM. Once that decision is made, the CM is the only way forwards. Regardless of fall-out and embarrasment.

In short, the ' offenders' were in the driving seat up to the MT journey to Colchester. Though arguably they still are; for what have they got to lose when they get out if the Press pack pay them a visit.

There will be public naming and shaming to come I suspect, and woh-betide if the Regt has skeletons falling out of the cupboards.

It should be about the 8th Feb that the next round of news on this is available.

[mad_jock]

I can't see the Regiment surviving to be honest.

But the Yorks Kenya mutiny will be in Army History now forever.

More than likely the Cpl has already got the Sabre employee of the month award.

How does the criminal record work? They need an offence code for the record and there won't be a civi equivalent for the offense. I can't see it affecting any civi employment. Even for civi security passes which require a CRC there is a list of offences which are banning items. If your offence isn't in that list of offenses you will get a pass. Much amusement was had when it was found out that you could have done time for bestiality with farm animals and still get an airport pass. But get a police caution for stealing a mars bar and you couldn't.

[Courtney Mil]

I wouldn't put too much store in the allegations concerning anything in the Regiment apart from the incindent that has been subject to enquiry and due process. It's all too easy for those charged with a crime to try to sling mud at their superiors. If the "sleeping at the finish line" incident even happened, what were the circumstances? If there hasn't been any action taken, is that because there was nothing to act against? Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't, but just because some pissed off squadies are making accusations, doesn't mean it did. Some here are posting as if this and other supposed failings are proven facts.

Just saying.

[mad_jock]

True but...

But the Yorks Kenya mutiny will be in Army History now forever.

Their recruitment will plummet now.

[gr4techie]

Their recruitment will plummet now.

Doubt it.

Some youth that I know have recently joined the RAF do not read or watch the news. They have no political awareness what so ever. One said he does not even read books or watch films and never votes in elections. All they do is watch Jeremy Kyle, maybe read the Sun (cannot call that trash a quality newspaper) and play on their xbox.

I doubt many who join, know the history of the unit they are joining. RAF India and Ceylon in 1946, anyone?

[racedo]

How does the criminal record work? They need an offence code for the record and there won't be a civi equivalent for the offense. I can't see it affecting any civi employment. Even for civi security passes which require a CRC there is a list of offences which are banning items. If your offence isn't in that list of offenses you will get a pass. Much amusement was had when it was found out that you could have done time for bestiality with farm animals and still get an airport pass. But get a police caution for stealing a mars bar and you couldn't.

It really does depends what job if any is applied for or qualified to do.

Doubtful if going to Police / Fire etc that he would be considered but lots of others roles where being dismissed from services will have little bearing on future career.

Bearing in mind that as indicated there will be later press coverage and if court of public opinion (always fickle) finds in their favour then may not be such an issue.

As many employers these days just want someone who can turn up on time, do what they are asked to and come and do it again I am not sure it would count against him. As most employers put you on probation anyway they doing it for 3 months keeps you the job.

[charliegolf]

How does the criminal record work?

And will a CM finding show up on a DBS search?

maybe read the Sun (cannot call that trash a quality newspaper)

The same Sun that had pride of place in every Sgt's Mess I ever visited?

CG (never reads newspapers)

[SASless]

How do these Soldiers get tagged for "Mutiny"?

The did not offer in any way to "remove, replace, or remove from authority" the Commander.

They refused an Order to "Stand UP!" and took actions to publicly embarrass the Commander.

Disobeying an Order....guilty.

Insubordination....guilty.

Contempt.....guilty.

Conduct Unbecoming....guilty.


Mutiny.....no way....innocent.

[Clockwork Mouse]

They weren't charged or convicted of mutiny for a variety of valid reasons, which is lucky for them. If a group of experienced soldiers conspire together to reject discipline and wilfully to disobey legal orders while on duty (a parade is a duty) with the excuse that they are not appreciated and don't like their commanders, that constitutes mutiny in my book. What would you call it? A work to rule? Civil disobedience?
Arrogant idiots, and I'm not talking about the officers. They've damaged a lot more than their own prospects and got the right verdict and punishment.

[SASless]

What is British Military Law re "Mutiny"?

Ours is pretty straight forward.....it takes a usurpation of Command and is punishable by Death or other punishment as directed by a Court Martial.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Haven't a clue. Retired yonks ago and didn't bother to take my copies of QRs and MML with me. Got the Army list though which gives interesting background gen about our current crop of rising stars.

[baffman]

I agree with SASless on this occasion!

From the limited facts reported of the case, I am quite clear that a mutiny charge would NOT have been appropriate. "Mutiny" and "Disobedience of a lawful command" are both very serious offences, but you diminish the seriousness of the mutiny charge by using it where the lesser is applicable.

From recollection, the maximum prison sentences under the respective charges are Life, and 10 years, so the court martial was not constrained in its sentencing options.

The Manual of Service Law says that
Mutiny is the most serious of all forms of indiscipline, therefore, charges under this section should normally only be preferred when the facts disclose a concerted and deliberate challenge to authority which strikes at the very heart of discipline and is calculated to prejudice significantly the ability of a unit to carry out its role, task or duties.

As an aside, I am surprised at the enthusiasm of some posters for talking up one side or the other of what was indeed a serious and embarrassing episode, but hardly a unique event in history.

[SCAFITE]

When you look at many past un-rest in the ranks and even Officer Mutiny in recent times i.e. WW2 and onwards, there seem to be a common thread.

The thread is the building up reputation of units, telling them in layman terms, that the sun is shining from their arses, when operations for those units are at a high tempo. Then once the operations for those units is slowing down, casting them aside. All commanders are guilty of this in one way or another. You cannot blame the individuals getting a high ego or felling superior to other units.

There will be an awful lot of high strung Troops/Units out there who have been for the last 10 years or so, at the very highest level of commitment, now finding the Yes Sir No Sir three Bags Full Sir routine of normal Army/Service life almost difficult to cope with.

I think there will be a lot more of this to come as the forces wind down from Operation. Not Mutiny but un-rest or not Happy Hectors.

For the past few years the Armed Force have been in the public eye and fated in many ways, but will when life goes back to normal will be forgotten quicker than someone coming 2nd place in a sand castle competition.

Some links to past Mutiny

Morotai Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morotai_Mutiny)

Salerno Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salerno_Mutiny) Promised by Monty they would fight with the 8th Army in Italy.

Mutiny in the RAF - Chapter 3 (http://www.socialisthistorysociety.co.uk/RAF06.HTM)

[goudie]

When men are in a position, where they are subject to the orders/actions of other men, there will sometimes come a time when enough is enough, but to compare the action of these squaddies with past mutinies is ridiculous. They wanted to draw attention to, what they considered to be, poor leadership. No one on this thread knows what was really going on in the background. However they made their grievances public, knowing full well they would be punished, and accordingly, have paid the (right) price.

[NutLoose]

There are some fascinating cases listed on the aarse thread..

Obviously what follows is trivial compared to Yorks incident, AAJLR,1960,Omdurman Platoon.

The Troop functioned as a unit within 'B' Company until its end in late October of 1960.
The Troop was disbanded mainly because of the reaction of the Junior incumbents to a Scottish Officer who became the Troop Commander on the 2nd. of September 1960. This Officer was not an Officer nor Gentleman! He was a vicious, cruel and malicious person. His favourite routine was multiple 'Kit' inspections at any time of the day or night. During these he would pull a Junior Soldiers locker from the top and crash it to the floor, any damage done to kit or locker was then charged to the Junior Soldier. He would throw over beds and many other such actions. During Outward bound he would bully and tirade everyone. During Rifle Training he would strike people with their rifles. He should not have been sent to AAJLR.
This cruel mans actions resulted in 48 boys out of 52 going AWOL one night in late October of 1960. People had tried to speak out, but as with the military attitude of the era, no one listened, (Sic..No change there then) and those who did complain were marked men by this beast of a man.
Most of the Boys either surrendered or were taken into custody within 48 hours of absconding.
The authorities now had to listen and listen seriously.
Within seven days of the great escape, Omdurman Troop was disbanded and the junior soldiers were dispersed amongst the other Troops/Platoons and Company's of the Regiment.
Punishment was light for those first time AWOL Boys, habitual absentees got the full treatment though (The Guardroom could not hold them all). Later this absence was expunged from their records.
Many Omdurman Boys therefore saw service in three of the Company's within AAJLR.
And so the great denial of the existence of Omdurman Troop began.

PS not my words,I'd moved on by then.Lifted from AAJLR Site.

Bit of an odd one:"Group of soldiers 'mutinied over hungover bosses', court told" - Page 22 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/207652-bit-odd-one-group-soldiers-mutinied-over-hungover-bosses-court-told-22.html)

[racedo]

Nut

What happened to said Officer ?

[NutLoose]

It does not say, but he is named

A.A.J.L.R. - About The Regiment (http://www.aajlr.org/about/about_main.html)

I Cannot believe the last RN mutiny was in 1970!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

neither can HM The Q, which is the real reason she never trusts them to guard her!:E

[SASless]

Seems she cannot trust the Plod either as someone keeps nicking the her Nuts.

I refer to the snacks she keeps in bowls in the hallways which seemed to forever being reduced by parties unknown.

[racedo]

Seems she cannot trust the Plod either as someone keeps nicking the her Nuts.


"Met Police told off for touching Queen's Nuts".................. so much a news editor could do with a headline like this.:ugh:

[racedo]

neither can HM The Q, which is the real reason she never trusts them to guard her!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Who looked after HM on Royal Yacht ?

[500N]

The Royal Marines :O

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

If memory serves me right, the Andrew doesn't swear an Oath because the loyalty is without doubt.

[parabellum]

Or is it because the RN once mutinied so the oath is in doubt? RN officers have to drag their swords around with them as punishment for the mutiny, Yes?

[baffman]

In fact swearing or affirming the oath of allegiance is now a requirement for all entrants to HM Forces, including the Royal Navy.

[NutLoose]

The Marines :}

[parabellum]

When these lads complete their sentence at MCTC Colchester, if they are to be discharged, then they will almost certainly be given some resettlement advice, (though possibly not a course of training?), the staff will be well versed in what jobs may not be available that require a security clearance.


I wondered if the corporal might get charged with mutiny as he seems to be a ring-leader who incited this minor uprising. When the 1st (Para) Bn. of the French Foreign Legion rebelled in Algiers, (in the sixties?), the French eventually shot the Sgt ringleader for inciting mutiny.

[baffman]

I believe MCTC do their best with those being discharged, who are not however entitled to the same resettlement package as normal leavers.

I also understand that only two out of the 16 were dismissed by the court martial.

[alisoncc]

It's all very well saying the Cpl should have done this or that, or could have done this or that or whatever, but the reality is that often it isn't that easy. As a JNCO - RAF, Cpl as it happens, on one station we had a non-too senior Eng Off who was an absolute disaster.

There was never anything specific that you could use as the basis for a "complaint". So anything at best would have been seen as just having a whinge. But when we all had cause to "whinge" two or three times a day each working day, then what?

Recollect one comand/directive that the tool store should close 30 mins before the end of a shift to allow the storeman to audit the tools. The EO was totally oblivious to the fact that we actually worked up until the end of a shift, and needed tools. Often returning off the line well after the end of a shift with tools to be returned before leaving.

This was just one incident of many where he made our ability to do our jobs efficiently virtually impossible. There was enough muttering in the crewroom to suggest that a sit-down if not "mutiny" was on the cards. Luckily he was moved before it got that far, but it was close - very close.

PS. It's worth remembering "It's the last straw that breaks the camels back". Not necessarily the heaviest either.

[Coniagas]

Believe me, I know. Strong leadership from the top down is essential at such a time to establish new unit identity, pride and corporate loyalty.
That may be why it's discipline had broken down. It is clear that there was a leadership problem within this particular company and the section had lost trust, confidence in and respect for the officer and SNCO. .........


As my old brain cells recall many years ago in Canada, the Airborne regiment based in Petawa was disbanded. Officers were rotating in and out every few months and the NCO's seemed to be a law to themselves.....
Just my 2 cents.

[Pontius]

Or is it because the RN once mutinied so the oath is in doubt? RN officers have to drag their swords around with them as punishment for the mutiny, Yes?

No. Just a myth.

[Bollotom]

The sword drags so when boarding an officer could discard the scabbard which could get in the way, also when climbing (rigging one supposes). The Admiralty decreed there would be no "Gentleman Officers". A good read from one in the know is via Rum Ration posting, link below. Post #5

Officers, Swords and Gentlemen (http://www.navy-net.co.uk/history/39509-officers-swords-gentlemen.html)

Edit to remove now incorrect info.

[dallas]

....then free. And unemployed with a criminal record. Good career choice.
Why would any of them end up with a criminal record? They seem to have broken military law, but I can't see a civil offence that would follow them. Not sure how much they would have to divulge about dismissal (perhaps with disgrace?), but nowadays Army 2004-2013 on a CV seems to be the max anyone actually looks into someone's history?

[NutLoose]

I did wonder that, one wonders how a criminal Service record for failed to stand up when asked would translate over to a Civilian one.



BTW re the Omdurman Platoon Incident, the Officer is named in one of the replies, and not in the text of the issue, Just to clarify it the response is added below


Roy Carman

I would like to thank Roy for this wonderful piece. I do not feel that alive or dead we should protect the good name of this person. Roy is not the only one who remembers this mans brutality. He is/was Lt. McClagan.Also I was under the impression that they were all 'troop' at the start and changed to 'platoon' somewhere along the way? - Webmaster.

[SASless]

There is Leadership and there is Discipline.....one is no substitute for the other.

This could have been handled much differently.

The Meaning of Life (6/11) Movie CLIP - Would Rather Be Elsewhere (1983) HD - YouTube

[baffman]

Bollotom

Ref RN swearing the oath of allegiance, see my post #107, which was correct. Your linked Wikipedia entry is out of date. This is from JSP 830, my bold:

8. Oath of allegiance. Whilst the signed declaration made at enlistment is a legal matter, the oath of allegiance has an educational, symbolic and solemn purpose. The swearing may be conducted during the first day of training or if considered more appropriate, at another suitable point, at the convenience of the single-Service. Swearing the oath of allegiance is a requirement of the Services for service in Her Majesty’s forces (this is a new provision for the RN because people offering to enter RN service have historically not sworn an oath of allegiance). Swearing the oath of allegiance is viewed as a mark of the individual’s loyalty to the Crown and therefore, their willingness faithfully to serve as a member of the armed forces.

[baffman]

Why would any of them end up with a criminal record? They seem to have broken military law, but I can't see a civil offence that would follow them. Not sure how much they would have to divulge about dismissal (perhaps with disgrace?), but nowadays Army 2004-2013 on a CV seems to be the max anyone actually looks into someone's history?

Some service offences always come under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, with others it depends on the penalty, e.g. dismissal or a sentence of detention for (from recollection) 3 months or more.

The actual rules covering various situations are more complicated than that and are subject to change, so I suggest that anyone to whom this applies should check carefully before making any declaration - and before pleading guilty in any service proceedings including summary dealings.

[Bollotom]

Many thanks, Baffman. I am surprised. :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

If every person who has every been "led by muppets" was to protest then one wonders whether anybody would ever do anything.

1Gp Dining-In Night springs to mind.

Mind you with 750 officers, more than half of the UK Deterrent Force, involved, disciplinary options become somewhat limited.

[Pontius Navigator]

Bollotom

Ref RN swearing the oath of allegiance, see my post #107, which was correct. Your linked Wikipedia entry is out of date. This is from JSP 830, my bold:

baff, why don't you edit the Wiki entry? It is easy to do.

[Courtney Mil]

I heard his wife saying yesterday that Sgt Blackman is not a murderer. The Telegraph picked up the story...

Marine A wife: It was war, my husband is not a murderer - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10517321/Marine-A-wife-It-was-war-my-husband-is-not-a-murderer.html)

[Genstabler]

CM

Wrong thread?