Is BALPA fit for purpose

[Itch]

If your Airline has a seniority based culture this thread effects you!

You may have heard that Flybe plans to make 179 out of 600 pilots redundant.

You are probably not aware that the 179 are the most senior in the company
(People with up to 25 years loyal Flybe service)

Flybe have a seniority based culture. Their policies state that redundancies will be carried out using LIFO (Last IN First Out) regardless of seat, fleet or base. The management unilaterely (without union or employee agreement) withdrew these policies just before announcing the redundancies, saying
1. We can't afford to do it that way
2. We think it would infringe age discrimination laws

Flybe have a mixed fleet (Prop and Jet). All the senior pilots (Jet) have been put at risk of redundancy. luckily for them no prop pilots have been.

If Balpa allow Flybe to get away with disregarding the policies that all pilots have based their career decisions on it will set a national president! So this effects pilots everywhere!

I'm not convinced that Balpa have the backbone for this fight, which is why I'm seeking to apply pressure on them by starting this thread.
I believe the time has come to test LIFO in the courts, so that all airlines will know if its an enforceable principle.

The Flybe LIFO issue could be one of Balpa's finest moments or it could prove them to be spineless (unfit for purpose).
Flybe are in consultation with Balpa now and it will be concluded mid Jan.
If you feel this issue is important then please watch what happens closlely and comment on this thread.
I shall reserve my judgement until the end but hope to applaud them. Otherwise I shall find myself in a tribunal, with many others, at our own expense wondering why we paid all those Balpa subscriptions.

[wiggy]

Before "Big BALPA" gets the usual kicking can I ask:

What communications have you received from your company council (i.e. your Reps)?

[Max Angle]

The company are quite correct that using just LIFO could be deemed illegal under age discrimination law if someone involved took the company to court.

During a similar process at bmi some years ago the BALPA CC came up with a system which slightly skewed the list based on things like disciplinary warnings and a few other factors which I can't honestly remember off the top of my head.

The result was almost LIFO but the company lawyers were happy with it. Of course it didn't get challenged in court, the people who were made redundant took it on the chin and left without a fight as far as I know so we will never know if the system they came up with was legal or not.

Good luck to all at Flybe, I know all too well what an uncertain future feels like and its not nice at any time let alone just before Christmas.

[Bealzebub]

The proposed redundancies are extremely bad news.

Changes to legislation have resulted in statutes that all companies have to adapt to and comply with. In many cases this will result in changes of previous policies that might otherwise be unlawful. Obviously, a policy has no supremacy to a law, particularly in a court.

Many companies are now having to amend their employment contracts and general terms and conditions to take into account these changes. LIFO isn't necessarily a violation of the Equality act 2010, however when used in isolation it may well be. Many companies have now adopted a "matrix" of criteria to be applied in the event of redundancies, so that the requirements of the act are best complied with.

If Balpa allow Flybe to get away with disregarding the policies that all pilots have based their career decisions on it will set a national president! So this effects pilots everywhere!

I think you mean "precedent" but it doesn't matter. The statute has supremacy. You are of course correct in that it does affect pilots (and other staff) in most companies. BALPA (as a trade union and collective of its membership) would be the same as an individual in these circumstances. You would take legal advice. If that advice is that you have a weak case (however much it affects you, or you disagree,) then you must decide what you wish to do. Plenty of people have spent a great deal of money fighting cases that were doomed from onset. A trade union (using their own legal advice) would likely make their decisions in the realisation that it was the collectives money they were using to embark on that course of action.

Have they indicated to you what the advice they have received is? Presumably the negotiations taking place include various options and potential compromises. A bad time, and I wish you the best possible outcome.

[RexBanner]

By the way, Itch it's untrue that no Dash pilots have been placed at risk.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

The big unknown, due to the usual lack of facts to be found here, is what BALPA are doing behind the scenes in terms of discussions with FlyBe but also in terms of future legal action. It is inconceivable to me that they have not taken legal advice and they will undoubtedly fight any case they can realistically win. I can only commend Bealzebub's excellent post and wish all those affected the very best.

[THRILLSEEKER]

I can't see it as being illegal, it happens everyday in the public and private sector. A position is made redundant it has nothing to do with the person filling that position. I know of friends even family that have been made redundant due to the position they were filling being made redundant with them serving many years in the company.

If the jet jobs are to go then that's just the way it is.

LIFO seems the fairest but is not a legal requirement.

[HidekiTojo]

There are plenty of q400 pilots currently at risk. Mostly jet pilots at risk though as the aircraft are being parked up full time (instead of the usual 70%).

Itch read your contract it states that the company reserve the right to make redundancies and use fleet as a discriminator. Policy F said the opposite. Policy F was made redundant.

Anyhow there are some jobs around if you have jet time or command time, take the paltry redundancy and run before a volcanic apd powered snow storm makes everyone redundant...

[Deano777]

Itch

No Prop pilots have been put at risk? I can assure you they have. I am looking at my at risk letter as I type this, and the measly £2700 I'll get paid upon exiting the door.

[Superpilot]

The company are quite correct that using just LIFO could be deemed illegal under age discrimination law if someone involved took the company to court.

Interesting, kind of strengthens the point of view put forward on the other "Ageism" thread. Anyone hazard to take a guess at the average age of the last 50 hires into FlyBe?

[SR71]

Itch,

Hardly a precedent.

As Max Angle mentions, this issue arose over 5 years ago in bmibaby. Were other BALPA members not paying attention to what happened there?

Anyone relying on LIFO in a redundancy scenario these days is in for a surprise.

The world doesn't work like that anymore.

Again, if the meaning of the word "Solidarity" meant that all pilots, across airline borders, stood together, then maybe a defence of LIFO would gain traction, but, again, that isn't the way the world works....lamentably in my opinion.

That isn't BALPA's fault, its yours, and mine and that of every other pilot.

Lets take some responsibility for the **** we're in rather than look to blame someone else.

[Lawro]

I'm not a Flybe pilot but think the purpose of this thread is directed at UK pilots in general & maybe we should all stick together & get Balpa to start looking after our interests instead of their own . I am a supporter of the idea of a Union but Balpa is no longer fit for purpose .

If enough people support their colleagues at Flybe & withhold their union subscriptions for a period of time , Balpa may start looking after the British Airline Pilot again like Airline unions on the continent seem to be able to do for their members.


Good luck to all at Flybe.

[Love_joy]

A major part of the issue inside of flybe is that we used to have a lovely policy in place to deal with such matters, the document formally known as Policy F.

The thing about Policy F, was that all the pilots agreed with it, so did Balpa and the company. It was enshrined in the same document as our scheduling, pay etc.

Despite having years to amend, or change the company did nothing. Policy F sat dormant.

When it came down to using it as a tool in redundancy, we all discovered that the cost of retraining Embraers drivers back onto the Dash made the policy entirely unworkable. Chopping the bottom of the list only gets rid of the cheap FO's, and the cost of retraining would bankrupt the company.

It's also true, some of the senior guys are paid as much as 4 FO's combined.

Sitting in the bottom third of the list, I have to say it feels pretty lowsy to think I might be 'safe', but another friend or colleague with years more service might be out. That doesn't sit right.

I've been working angles myself to leave, but without meaningful jet time, or command time on the Dash I'm stuck.

[JW411]

I feel for all of the Flybe pilots whether they have been made redundant or not. They are about to face up to the realities of the seniority system that has governed their lives since the time they joined that company.

Suddenly, the bubble has burst and 179 of them have to go.

So, who has to go?

That is indeed the question.

I have been deeply invoved in this question on at least three occasions during my long aviation career.

The first time that it affected me was when I was a DC-10 captain in Laker. We were told that we were going to have to cut back, and, because of my seniority number (nothing to do with my ability or my needs to feed my family) I was going back into the right seat.

I was a pretty young man in those days and my first thought was why don't they get rid of the old expensive captains and keep me?

As it turned out, Fred went bust before I had to make the move.

I then went to work in the US of A and got to know ALPA and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters quite well. Out there, it is quite vicious. Your seniority number is all that matters. It is EVERYTHING. So, if the company needs less pilots in the winter, then you will either move back to the right seat or get furloughed at the drop of a hat (mind you, I did learn how to use the Railway Labor Act of 1928 or whatever it was to my benefit).

My third experience of the seniority system was when I became No.1 on the seniority list in my airline which operated around 40 aeroplanes. It was actually a very pointless position to achieve because by the time they get round to firing the last forty or so pilots then their is no airline left.

I am always very wary of the call for total solidarity in taking industrial action for the simple reason that few people can afford the privilege but a lot of the others are quite simply stuffed financially and can't afford the luxury of protest.

I have vivid memories of coming out of one of one the UAA DC-10 simulators in Denver and airlining back to Miami. At the airport there was still a line of Continental pilots in uniform protesting about the take over of Continental by Frank Lorenzo. This was three years after the take over and they were still protesting. The depressing fact was that Continental were still flying every single flight that they had done before the unpleasantness.

In other words, they had found a sufficient number of pilots who didn't give a toss for the senior pilots and were quite prepared to fly for the new reduced terms.

So, there is nothing new this side of the universe.

Therefore, despite BALPA, there are going to be a lot of pilots who are going to have to seriously look at their own problems and decide whether to take a stand on the seniority position or not.

Many of them might wish that they belonged to the Teamsters rather than the rather ineffectual BALPA.

[mad_jock]

I was told that the wage balance was way out with the top third of pilots taking over 2/3rds of the wage bill.

I can't see the Q400 fleet fighting for the Jet pilots, they would be fighting to make themselves redundant.

There won't be a lot BALPA can do about it either if the rest of the pilots are just happy to have a job.

[Tourist]

I am not at Flybe.

I take no joy in what is happening at Flybe.

What I will say is that if you think there will be universal or even popular support for any action to protect those at the top of a system of seniority which the current crop at the bottom can never hope to enjoy the fruits of then you are living in a dream world.

Perhaps this salutary tale might make a few others start to question the "fairness" of seniority systems.

The ones who argue hardest for seniority systems are the ones who don't believe that they will ever have to experience starting again at the bottom as many of us have had to do.

p.s. no, BALPA is not fit for purpose. Us junior guys have known it for a while, now it turns out it is no good for the senior guys either.

[Desk-pilot]

As one of the pilots on the jet fleet at risk of redundancy I have to say that there needs to be some system in place to protect loyalty surely? If all airlines are just allowed to make people redundant at the drop of a hat everytime they move or remove an airframe then none of us can sleep soundly in our beds at night can we?

The point about LIFO is that when you join an airline you know you're vulnerable - but its the price you pay for getting a job. As you stay with an employer and advance your career you expect that your loyalty to the firm will result in increased job security. The crucial point is that both the Flybe written policy F and also the pilot employment contract state quite plainly that LIFO will be used as the basis for any redundancies and indeed this fact has been widely accepted by both management and the pilot community. It is this sudden shifting of the goalposts with no union negotiation that is so abhorrent and why so many of the affected pilots are considering legal action. The original poster is right though - as a membership we have all paid our subs over many years (and BALPA membership isn't cheap). Now at a time when the very basis of our contract is being attacked we need BALPA to fight for us in court if necessary. As individual pilots facing redundancy we should not be forced to engage in legal action on our own - this is a battle BALPA must fight if they wish to protect the employment rights enshrined in the written policy - and its outcome has ramifications in all airlines.

Retraining people may not be as expensive as the company likes to claim. They are currently paying for simulators, line trainers and TRI's whether they are using them or not. Many of us still hold valid Q400 type ratings and last flew it within 2 or 3 years. The truth is that a couple of sim sessions and an LPC would see many back on line and a bit of live training could follow. We're not talking about the company having to provide a full type rating for 150 people. In addition as a compromise I suspect many would be prepared to contribute to the training cost if it secures their job - however that isn't an option that is currently being offered...

[Heathrow Harry]

"If all airlines are just allowed to make people redundant at the drop of a hat everytime they move or remove an airframe then none of us can sleep soundly in our beds at night can we?"

Unfortunately that has been the case in the non-airline world for 150 years - technology changes and the staff take the hit - not many traditional printers, or hand loom weavers around......................

PS I suspect the "re-training" issue is a red herring - they just want/have to cut the numbers of staff fast - retaining people to have to cut them anyway - no chance

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Policy F is non-contractual isn't it?

[Desk-pilot]

Spandex,

The company state that Policy F is non-contractual

The lawyers state that written policy becomes contractual if accepted by both parties over a period of time.

In short I think the issue at hand might be which is cheapest for the company - negotiating some kind of retraining programme/part time working compromise maybe even part subsidised by the employee or face the unknown quantity that is a large class action lawsuit with 150 people that could result in bad press, prolonged litigation and a significant compensation payment.

[captplaystation]

I suspect Desk-pilot has it right.

It is more than likely it is the salaries ( going forward) that the Beanies wish to save a bob on, by getting rid of the most expensive pilots, highly unlikely it has much to do with training costs.

Perhaps this is strictly essential, but I doubt it. I have had conversations in the past with those more intimately acquianted with the black art of costs & accountancy than I am, it has usually been revealed to me that wage costs are relatively unimportant in an airline in the grand scheme of things. If they truly are so desparate to reduce these, I would suggest you are already up sh1t creek minus a prop blade.

I would wager that pure corporate greed, manifested in someone seeing a way to make an extra buck on the premise of "survival methods", will be closer to the truth here.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

The lawyers state that written policy becomes contractual if accepted by both parties over a period of time.


Didn't know that DP, thanks Any idea then what the time period is and how long Policy F has been extant?

I suspect you're right about the course of action being the cheapest for the company, when has it ever been different? Apart from JF's nice new pad in Belgravia of course.

[mad_jock]

You might find that flybe are stuck.

The job is being made redundant not the person.

So if they make someone redundant and then fill the position with someone else within 1 year then the person who is made redundant can then start legal proceedings.

BALPA will be stuck in the middle as well. The senior pilots wanting it to be LIFO and back fill Q400 slots, the pilots who would now be kicked out will be saying hang on that's illegal BALPA take them to court my job wasn't made redundant there is someone else doing it now.

however that isn't an option that is currently being offered...

I think the removal of 2/3rds of the wage bill will be the reason if in fact that is true. The training costs are a bit of a red herring in my opinion 1 senior Captains salary for a year would pay for 6 type ratings.

If all airlines are just allowed to make people redundant at the drop of a hat every time they move or remove an airframe then none of us can sleep soundly in our beds at night can we?

Welcome to the new world of aviation, its now very unusual for pilots to actually work for the airline. We are all pumped through some 3rd party company which deals with the wages and if they want they just close it down and transfer the pilots to another company if they have any problems with crew. Its a right pain, some of the youngsters can't get mortgages etc even after working for the same outfit for 5 years because on paper they are self employed even though they don't want to be. Then you get the occasion transfer of middle company's due to changes in tax laws so the company's can take advantage of low corporation tax's. Which leads to the crew being wide open to getting into trouble with multiple country's tax laws.

Company ops , in one country, AOC in another, company owned and controlled in another, crewing company in another, your actually flying out of another one and your resident somewhere else.

[Artic Monkey]

I am an at risk year 7 Dash SFO. As I understand it they cannot make a person redundant, but a position. If they make me redundant and then fill my position with an EJet pilot then they will definitely have litigation on their hands.
The whole thing is a sorry mess caused by inept and greedy directors and we are here suffering the consequences. The upshot is I do not want anyone to lose their jobs and it is an absolute travesty that the top end chaps on the seniority list are losing their jobs whilst pilots who have only been here for a year or so are keeping theirs but I'm not going to stick my hand in the air and say get rid of me when I have a mortgage and children to feed, why would I?
As for our contract stating that LIFO is to be used, well I think unfortunately employment law has moved on since our contracts were written so I am not sure what water they would hold in a court of law. Time will tell.

[HidekiTojo]

All this talk about following policy f etc is a total waste of time. It simply is never going to happen. If the company were to follow its policies to the letter then it would end up having someone like desk-pilot retrained through an entire type rating on the dash 8 (sorry but a quick sim ride isn't going to do it for everyone) then on your current salary plus relocation allowance go and take some dash fo's job in another base. So potentially £80k+ Dash FO.

The real fight for Balpa should be the pathetic redundancy pay. It is a million miles away from acceptable. Face it the jobs are going you are probably about to be made redundant and as such you should be compensated appropriately. Desk pilot there are some job opportunities for jet pilots go and explore them instead of trying to take a poor dash first officers job?

2014 10 E175
36 Q400

People don't appreciate what a mess this is Flybe still has an un completed order of 35 E175's and all its managed to do with them is park them up in the West Country. Unbelievable.

[mad_jock]

I think these days they can't even bump people down to FO from the LHS and make an FO redundant if they have to many Captains.

[arcdu]

As has been mentioned the same thing happened at bmi baby, where the redundancy by LIFO was in the contract and was ignored, and BALPA didn't help those who were made redundant by base and seat.
If a junior pilot takes flybe to court for unfair dismissal because a senior pilot is given their position Flybe will lose. If a senior pilot takes them to court for ignoring LIFO they might lose, but it is unlikely if they have complied with all the requirements of employment law, which they almost certainly have.
Unfortunately BALPA should have negotiated redundancy policies before they were needed, now is probably to late.
Good luck to all.

[Leg]

So much mis-information, arcdu, the company would not win given the scenario you mention, why would they? There is no such thing in the airline industry or at least in flybe, where a seat is made redundant, what nonsense.

As has already been stated, everyone knows when you sign up that your career will be ruled by seniority, so when it comes to cuts, it has to be seniority, age discrimination would not be an issue either because there is no age discrimination in employment in the first place, not all new starts are 21 yrs of age!

Make older folks redundant and there certainly would be grounds for legal action and the company would lose, they know this and would rather pay out than use that paltry amount to retrain and/or offer part time contracts.

The other point is is, the pools which will be formed, will be mainly LIFO, so again that must be acceptable to the companies legal peeps.

It's a mess, but the company will blink first, Balpa are f'ing useless and the CC even worse but they will revel in the hero worship. :rolleyes:

[sjm]

Is BALPA fit for purpose?

NO!

They were well versed in this problem 4/5 years ago when Baby went through the same thing.

The PN was the same PN for Baby as Flybe had until recent times, your CC would have or should have known about this years ago, the PN definitely did!

The PN and CC should have negotiated a new redundancy policy years ago, that was acceptable to both fleets and all on the seniority system. Then it would have come as no surprise.

Whilst I completely agree with comments over why you are being made redundant, greed etc.... In this instance BALPA and no one else is responsible for allowing an outdated and questionable policy ( due to new laws) to remain for so long after it became clear it wouldn't work.

Another thought, do you think BALPA would risk being sued by pilots from other companies who were made redundant under a matrix system just to protect LIFO in Flybe ?:=:ugh:

Gentleman / Ladies BALPA have yet again failed to act in good time and let you all down.

[captplaystation]

BALPA. . .an "old boys club", and in certain companies (thinking the one from 5 years ago) members of the same "club" as management.

When asked to grow a pair (thinking supporting IALPA against the blue/yellow Harp here ) about as resilient as a chocolate teapot.

I fear Flybe are about to join the others in the "admirers club" formed by ex BMI/Dan Air etc etc pilots that have been sold down the road over the years.

[HidekiTojo]

Leg,

Why don't you go and make your feelings about the CC known on the balpa forum?

Not man enough?

[Oldfield89]

BALPA...

In my hour of 'need' some months ago...I personally felt very let down indeed by BALPA at that time.

Mine was a complex, medical related issue but I felt that I was very much left to fend for myself in certain areas.

I only received advice between meetings and when the company negotiator was out on the road, using his hands-free car kit!

When the company final offer letter arrived, BALPA responded on a whimper...I was not 100% guaranteed to WIN any tribunal, so I can only assume that I was filed in the 'Too Difficult' in-tray.

I contacted BALPA General Secretary (without reply) stating how let down I felt...I thankfully kept my position and have not looked back after commencing appropriate medication earlier this year, with the full support of UK CAA Medical Division.

I continue to be a 'month-to-month' member of BALPA and I have been very impressed with our new negotiator thus far, after a one-to-one meeting with him recently. Things appear to have improved recently including a newly formed CC.

Good Luck to all at BE, you have our sympathies.

[arcdu]

Leg
Call it misinformation if you like, but as sjm stated this happened before at bmi baby. Captains, of which I was one, were made redundant because our positions were no longer needed, whilst first officers in the same bases and captains and first officers at other bases, who were below us on the seniority list, retained their jobs.
So once again, it is a position which is made redundant not a person, under uk employment law, so if flybe make q400 pilots redundant they cannot then give Q400 left or right seats at those bases to more senior pilots, if they did they would lose in court.
It happened in bmi baby and BALPA did not offer any assistance to take the company to court for those made redundant with disregard to seniority, because they did not believe they could win. And in that case LIFO was written into the pilots contract.
As I said, balpa should have been negotiating a redundancy policy whilst business was good and the company making money, the basic rule of negotiation is to negotiate from a position of strength, and at the moment BALPA are not in that strong position.

[JB007]

Have to agree with mad_jock - Welcome to a new world...

The company will have a law firm behind them all the way, those of you with "at risk" letters, get your head round this is happening - BALPA/Legal Action/Loyalty moans/Training costs...forget it! Put your effort into looking at your job options...

Thomson made me redundant in 2010, only 8 months after transferring me from the B756 to B737, I've had all the same thoughts as those mentioned here and never been a BALPA member since nor will I ever!

Personally, I think the industry has got worse since, my expectations have never been lower and I've never been so uninspired by recent management I've experienced and some cadets I've met - in nearly 4 years to the day of exiting Thomson, I'll be joining a secure airline with career options and a career package for someone with my experience, but it has come with some large compromises that I've just had to suck-up if I wanna be a pilot in the UK!

Welcome to a new world... - IMHO, it's one where BALPA is just old news and out-dated...but protect yourselves, they will do nothing!

[Budar]

As others have said Bmibaby opened this can of worms 5 yrs ago! BALPA has known it would rear its head again at some point. The LIFO issue created a bit of a divide and a lot of BALPA members left to join the IPA. A quick search on pprune will show the thread and all the discussion points which I'm sure you guys at risk in Flybe may be interested in. Sorry cant remember the title of the thread maybe sjm can?

BALPA is pointless unless you are in BA! IMHO.

Having been under threat of redundancy many times with bmi/baby, and then finally getting made redundant last year, BALPA not much use then either!!!My thoughts are with you all best of luck! Sh#tty thing to go through before Xmas!

[SR71]

The anti-BALPA rhetoric is very en vogue but is totally mis-guided IMHO.

The effectiveness of BALPA at any particular airline boils down to its support from the pilots therein. Thats the way it works.

However, most pilots are too bloody blind to what is going on in the world outside their own airline to realise that they need to be setting the agenda rather than reacting to it.

Blaming BALPA is just dodging your personal responsibility for the s**t we're in.

The out-dated-ness of LIFO has been apparent since at least 2008.

It doesn't matter whether its FlyBe or BA, unless the law changes or a precedent is set, anyone sitting around thinking in a redundancy scenario they're safe because they're at the top of the pile is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The FlyBe situation is a s**t sandwich but it is not a surprise. Nor should it be to any other pilot sitting around with an industrial agreement saying redundancies will be conducted using LIFO.

Just like the FTL issue, perhaps pilots are gradually waking up to the reality that, regardless of which airline we work for, if we can all respect each other, stop thinking of just ourselves and our own "little" airline, stick together, we'd all be better off.

I'm laughing into my soup as we speak.

:D

[captplaystation]

I am shocked by the previous page of posts. I didn't take the time to read all of the BMI stuff, so had no historical knowledge of what a crock of cR@p industrial law is in the YOOKay.

So, no point to be in BALPA if it all goes t!Ts up, and even more demonstrates what a "joke" the idea that you owe some "loyalty" to any company using your services . . as it is quite obviously a one-way-street.

[Count von Altibar]

BALPA is definitely not fit for purpose. There's a lot of good work that goes on no doubt but that gets tarnished with the corruption that exists within it. If BALPA was fit for purpose we wouldn't be witnessing the mass exodus of Virgin Atlantic pilots who've rushed to set up their own union. Just look at what went on with the openskies debacle and say no more.

[Trossie]

Pray, tell us then how much better things work in 'FUBAR'?

[u0062]

The matrix system was used by Ezy some years ago when they made some cabin crew redundant. The CC took the company to court and won, Dont have the details but it is not simple.

To make anybody redundant cost money, would it be worth asking Flybe management to contact Ezy on your behalf and rather than pay redundancy put these funds to paying for your type rating and a position with us.

I appreciate there are many hurdles to cross applications etc but the bottom line Ezy are recruiting. Unfortunately this would mean not so many cadets but to fair most line Captains would prefer a few more experienced pilots.

I am also aware of the pilots in the holding pool,however I would image most of these pilots at least do have a job at present and would at the worst just delay your start date.

I for one would look forward to flying with you guys. Good luck

[Itch]

Thanks for all of your responses so far and lets keep this going!

Lets go back to basics and the reason for having a union in the first place.

Flybe's CEO and its management team are motivated by one thing and one thing only. MONEY. They don't care if they are in the aviation industry or a hedge fund or making rubber dog :mad:. They will do what ever they can to make the most money.

Unions are there to ensure that employees are not exploited in the managements relentless desire to make more money.

Flybe's management have indentified what they believe is the most cost effective method of reducing excess capacity "Close small bases, Get rid of the Jets, Get rid of the people in the small bases and those who fly the jets" Nice and simple, yes? Well yes! In fact there is an unexpected bonus! All of the people who fly the jets are also on the highest salaries.
Why? Because Flybe claim to desire loyalty from their staff which is why they encourage loyalty by giving extra money to them for every year they stay with the company and free flights even a free pen after 10 years! Oh yes and they also have promised to reward that loyalty by showing loyalty back to those loyal employees by operating a LIFO system where those that have chosen to forgo higher salaries better t&c's etc are promised that most important perk JOB SECURITY! Number one on the seniority list knows that everyone else has to be made redundant before he is!

It really is that simple. Its all in black and white.

I'm no lawyer but I know there is such a thing as a verbal contract! Well flybe's policies are all published! If that does not give Balpa the mandate to take Flybe to court then I don't know what does! So Balpa may loose, I accept that. But if Balpa one of the richest unions around don't fight this in court then I and every other Balpa member will know that they are not fit for purpose!

I am not asking people to with hold subscriptions but I am asking them to make their voices heard and tell Balpa what they think should be done!

To my colleagues in Flybe who are not currently effected I urge you to ask yourself one question. When you are old and unlikely to be re-employed, when you have a family to support do you think you will desire your employer to honour its published policies? If the answer is yes you need to support Balpa in fighting this, even if it costs you your present job!

Short term, selfish behaviour is why the career choice of pilot has already become second rate. Lets change it!

[captplaystation]

Trossie,

Other countries have it "far better" when these things happen. . . .if I could mention France & Scandinavia to begin with, but I am sure there are many others.

UK was Donald Ducked after Maggie for this type of scenario. . . . . .

[Boing7117]

I remember pilots in MAN and NCL asking the same questions of their colleagues back in January this year when these two bases (and GCI?) we're put at risk by the last useless management.

I remember BALPA fighting damn hard to keep Policy F the official route for this kind of reduction in operation.

I also remember far too many 'colleagues' in other bases wishing people in affected bases good luck for 'their' situation.

I cannot forget far too many colleagues voting AGAINST the BALPA vote to use Policy F because doing that would cost others their job.

Itch, when you've got an airline where some (relatively well paid / comfortable) flight crew treat this job as their 'career' for life, having built up many years of seniority and with it, pay increments / seniority in base etc VERSUS the brand new, fresh FO's who want to rack up hours and move on to the next thing (and even those like me, who would like to make a career here but know that there isn't a defined career path) then you're going to have a massive imbalance of people fighting for the same cause - because they simply don't want the same thing.

The company will do whatever they want and BALPA to a large degree are powerless to prevent it. Next year, when flight deck have been made redundant, if BALPA feel there is a case, then they may try take Flybe to the cleaners, and they'll probably get a settlement. But that's next year, and right now Flybe want to cut costs now and they'll worry about employment tribunals later.

[mad_jock]

So BALPA are going to get 175 jet pilots pilots saying take them to court.

Then they are going to get the same again if not more saying take them to court I have been unfairly dismissed. If they don't do anything that's them not going to get any low seniority pilots joining.

BALPA is stuffed either way.

Also if they do take it to court and loose there is a precedent set, that's it for everyone. And they have far larger membership base in other airlines which could be affected. It would basically make it possible for BA to torch one of the old long haul fleets and get shot of a lot of its old timers on the old wage scales. I am not saying they would do it mind.

They are going to be getting pressure from all sides and I can't see them having any chance of coming out clean.

And those 175 are a conservative 15 million pounds of wage bill a year unless I have got my number of zero's screwed up even if its 1.5 its still significant. That pays for a whole heap of lawyers.

I hope the crew rooms at the mixed fleet bases aren't to hostile.

How many days are left for the consultation period? I presume some of the routes won't finish until LGW closes as a destination using the jet.

[Artic Monkey]

Itch, of course they're in it for money, why else are they in business? If anyone thinks the management gives a toss about you or I then you are very much mistaken. To quote a famous film with Arnie in it, we are expendable assets, nothing more and nothing less.
It doesn't matter what Flybe's policies are, it's irrelevant. If they don't conform to employment law then they are not worth the paper they are written on.

Boeing7117, what did you expect people to do? Vote themselves out of a job? You're deluded if you think people would do this, and you wouldn't have done this either would you. If you're based in MAN right now and you are effectively safe are you prepared to put something to a vote that means your job is untenable? Get real. It's human nature to protect your own back yard, you would be no different. Don't forget that everyone took a financial hit to save jobs, probably including yours. I'm at risk at the moment, I'm not whinging about it, if my number's up then my number's up, I'm not going to moan that others are safe and I'm not, I'm not expecting others to vote themselves out of a job to save me, I'm not expecting others to take a pay cut to save my job either, why should they? I'll take it on the chin and walk away.

[Trossie]

Quantifyhave it "far better"
Is this the France where British airlines (Eastern) are operating domestic routes within the country (maybe because the 'social' costs of employing pilots are less in Britain so that it is easier to employ them?).
Is this the Scandinavia where British airlines (Flybe and BMIR) are operating routes within Scandinavia (maybe again that it is easier to employ pilots in Britain?).

What is better, having 'gold plated' agreements and Ts&Cs but being heaved on the dole or having far from the best Ts&Cs but having a job?

Maybe the problem at Flybe is that the structure is giving the 'bean counters' the excuse to select the way that they have: if everyone earned the same there would be no financial reason to 'cull' the top group because they were expensive to retain? Seniority lists are turning out worthless and the next thing to look at is 'pay scales'. Just have a 'flat' pay as most modern airlines have, then there would be no reason for the 'bean counters' to target those at the top. (After all, does a '10 year' pilot fly that much more efficiently than a '2 year' pilot that he deserves to be paid a whole lot more?)

People must remember that the sole purpose of any enterprise is to make money. So don't criticise your bosses if that is what they are trying to do: if they are doing it properly they will keep you in a job and if they aren't then, the same as in any other enterprise out there, it might be time to think of leaving before things go wrong. But if you are trapped because of your precious place on that 'seniority list' and if 'seniority lists' elsewhere mean that you'll have to swallow all your experience and expertise and start again at the bottom then you will probably be forced to stay until you present outfit sinks. Remember that you're part of an outfit that is trying to make money to stay afloat and keep you in jobs, good old capitalist style. Socialism may sound very nice but , to quote 'Maggie', "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money".

Hopefully others can pick up some of the business that Flybe hasn't managed to run properly and hopefully those others can employ as many of the pilots who are being laid off by Flybe as possible.

BALPA's job isn't to try to flog a dead horse, in fact if BALPA have promoted some of the inefficient policies within Flybe that have caused these problems, then they might have played a part in killing that horse. BALPA's job now is to try to ensure that those pilots are able to get jobs related to their experience, etc., elsewhere. Ensuring that other airlines don't have 'seniority list' penalties for those pilots looking for work would be a good start. That's what the real work outside the airlines is like, it is now time for the airline world, and their unions, to catch up with that real world.

[bad bear]

hi, can anyone post the sections of the contract that allows redundancy by base and the section "F" so people know what the facts are? Are turbo prop captains being laid off, if so at which bases? Are any captains being demoted?
I guess everyone knew there were potentially problems with schedule "F" but did anyone ask BAPLA to open the can of worms and negotiate a new agreement based on more age friendly legislation?
Has the number of redundancies been reduced as the number of routes being cut has reduced ( 60 mentioned but 40 announced)

[Boing7117]

I am not asking people to with hold subscriptions but I am asking them to make their voices heard and tell Balpa what they think should be done!

To my colleagues in Flybe who are not currently effected I urge you to ask yourself one question. When you are old and unlikely to be re-employed, when you have a family to support do you think you will desire your employer to honour its published policies? If the answer is yes you need to support Balpa in fighting this, even if it costs you your present job!

Arctic - this is what Itch is saying. Let's all stand together and be counted.

Just like in January?

And your response clarifies my point exactly.

And to clarify my position further, I will support any action BALPA sees fit in order to preserve jobs, where jobs are unfairly highlighted for redundancy.

Would I take a pay cut? Yes. Absolutely. Would I lose my own job to preserve somebody else's? If it was clear that me keeping my job was absolutely unfair then yes and I would back any vote / mandate to ensure my position is in the mix. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.

But we know this situation is entirely different to January. If a BASE is closing then there's nothing we can do to help prevent that. If the base closes, the job in that base is redundant.

If the fleet in base is closed then again, as above, there's nothing we can do to prevent that either.

Can we follow 'our' plane. No, because somebody somewhere is already in a job somewhere else and can do the work required.

The difficulty is when a partial reduction in base occurs. How is that decided - that's the part that could be unfair and that's part of this unpleasant situation that I will vote accordingly and be vocal about as and when it happens.

[mad_jock]

http://www.pprune.org/nordic-forum/527279-svenskt-direktflyg-made-all-pilots-redundant.html

Seems it isn't much different in Scandinavia.

you have two separate issues going on.

1. One fleet getting disposed of

2. The other fleet being reduced.

To me Number 1 is pretty clear cut.

Number 2 is going to be the difficult one and they can't just choose the most expensive pilots to go.

[bad bear]

Boing7117
Why? Because it's the right thing to do.
I totally agree, as a UNION we need to what is right rather than what is good for the individual. Loosing a job when a new F/O is hard but loosing a Command and a large number of increments is so much worse. I have been made redundant as a F/O and been at risk later in my career and know when I would rather loose my job.

Does the FLYBE contract allow for redundancy by base and fleet, if so where does it say so in the contract which pilots have made their career choices? or only LIFO (schedule "F")?
If pilots are to be at risk by taking a fleet or base at a weak station they should know in advance what the rules are and have the opportunity to turn down the posting. Why would a senior F/O at a secure base take the risk of accepting a command at an outstation where the route is vulnerable? If pilots refuse to take postings at "risky" bases or fleets the company would have to rethink its policy

[Set 1013]

Well said Artic Monkey :D

Itch - It doesn't matter if Flybe's policy's are verbal or published. If they don't conform to current employment laws they are worthless. Policy F is old, outdated and unfit for purpose, it is not worth the paper it's written on!

[Han 1st Solo]

LIFO isn't the issue here. The company matrix uses seniority as the majority factor so in effect LIFO is been used. The issue is how the company applies the matrix, if it chose to apply the matrix to a global pool (i.e. the entire seniority list) then we wouldn't have an issue, the problem is it's choosing to create pools within specific bases, fleets and seats, which flies in the face of what policy f says should be applied. Despite been safe this time around I wasn't in Jan and may well be the next time the company decides to make redundancies which is why everybody should support the application of policy f. It's a rubbish situation and I really hope there's a happy ending however unlikely that appears to be at the moment. :(

[RexBanner]

In response to the suggestion that Flybe pilots should just be transferred to easyJet, that is all very nice in theory but what easyJet want in a pilot may be different to what Flybe wants and some may not be right for the company. Plus you have the guys (myself included) who worked hard at easyJet recruitment this year and were initially welcomed into the company but are now sitting in the hold pool nervously hoping for a start date before they drown. Is it really a fair suggestion that they should be usurped by Flybe pilots who have not even sat an assessment just because their job is at risk?

Don't think I'm not sympathising because I was in the very same position at Flybe earlier this year and know exactly how they feel. But I would not have wanted to jump the queue ahead of someone in the pool, regardless if they had a job. There will be jobs at the places the easyJet 'poolers leave though and if there are still jobs available at easy then perfect. Good luck to everyone at Flybe, the professionalism on view earlier this year and still now when you listen to the R/T is outstanding.

[mad_jock]

what easyJet want in a pilot may be different to what Flybe wants

cheap as hell and legal?

[seniortarget]

Saad Hammad (FlyBe CEO) is a very clever man. He knew he had to make some drastic changes to FlyBe in order for it to survive.

First and foremost he needs to get rid of the very people that got FlyBe into this mess in the first place - the upper management....Tick.

Next he needs to address airport , handling , A/C lease, and other non staff related operational costs and get a better deal than the previous management.....Tick

Next came the staff costs - the most expensive being the pilots - hmm, this one's tricky as they have a union. If he just instigates a cut across both pilot fleets/rank he could increase the strength of BALPA and have a mutiny on his hands. How can he save a large sum of money and keep the rest of the workforce sweet ?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif
Having taken the time to talk to his staff, he then discovers an answer. The Dash crews are fed up with the fact that they do more sectors than the Jet crews and get paid 10% less for it. As many of the Jet crews are still (although more senior) relatively young, they also feel that their prospects of getting on a Jet is a long way into the future.
Hmm, Saad thinks....If I ground most of the Jet fleet, make most of the Jet pilots redundant, that would solve my salary saving problem. I could also put the word out to the Dash crew that the company is in big trouble (even though we made a profit last year) and is close to going bust. That way the Dash crews will be fearful of their jobs and BALPA would have to accept it. I could also give the impression that after these cuts and after the company gets back on its feet we will be expanding - possibly with new routes, new bases and new Jets. Now that we have got rid of most of the Jet guys and with them the Dash pilots barrier for career progression, they could be flying a nice shiny Jet much quicker than they thought.
So the Dash guys - although feeling a little guilty for their more senior colleagues, accept that this is best for them. They keep their heads down and allow it to happen, after all if they fight for Policy F they may put themselves at risk as well. The UNION between the pilots is dead.....TICK

And now the future.

Once the dust has settled, Saad needs to make even more cuts to make even more money...after all his reputation is at stake here !

The pilots that have survived the cuts have proved that seniority is dead, the Union is dead and the contract isn't worth the paper it's written on, therefore lets have no seniority list....TICK
Next without seniority and loyalty we don't need a loyalty pay...time to get rid of increments ....that saves a lot http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif TICK
Next without a higher jet salary to compare themselves to, the Dash crews are left with comparing themselves to other European operators....but wait Saad thinks, they are the highest paid turboprop pilots in Europe....Hmmmm........ Mowaa ha haaa
TICK
TICK
TICK
BOOM

[Mr Angry from Purley]

A 25% cut in Pilots is an aweful lot, how many aircraft are going?
Any Flybe Pilot should be looking to get out. No doubt Flybe will do a deal and keep a few more but end up short of crews. :ugh:

[Itch]

I don't think anyone has disagreed with the fact that management are financially motivated to find the least cost solution. So the question is

Have Flybe management chosen the correct path.

Consider what I shall be seeking compensation for.

I will go from a Captains salary of £80,000 to a first officers salary of £50,000 and will be on that for lets say 5 years but it could easily be 10 years if I follow the companies guidance and am lucky enough to get a job with Monarch. That's a loss of earnings of between £150,000 to £300,000 and that's assuming I get a job straight away.

When I moved house a couple of years ago it cost about £40,000. Chances are I will have to relocate.

Then there is my wife's job, she has a good job but may not be able to do it if I have to relocate.

Then there is the stress that we are all being, unfairly, subjected to now. I for one have not had more than 5 hours sleep a night since this started!

And last but definitely not least are the court costs.

Multiply that lot by 150 and it adds up to............ A LOT

Now compare that to the costs involved in following the policy

Well to be fair we need to see the retraining and relocation costs from the company but many of us have Dash ratings already and as for published relocation costs, they are no way near what I shall be seeking compensation for!

Then lets look at the people who would be made redundant.

Most will be First Officers at the beginning of their careers. they will have read the redundancy policy and could not really claim to be surprised that the company followed the policy.

They will probably get a better if not similarly paid job else where so little or no lost earnings

They are probably in rented accommodation as they like to move around progressing their careers so moving costs are minimal.

They will probably get a job more quickly too. I guess most employers looking for First Officers would favour experienced FO's over experienced Captains.

They too will suffer the stress, I know that, I lost my FO's position and it sucked! But looking back I was lucky not to have a mortgage, wife and kids and an elderly parent to support!

Then there is the question of whether they would want to take the company to court. Its a small industry and when your working your way up do you want the trouble maker label? Some will and some will not.

As for me, my blood is boiling as are many of my colleagues. I'm prepared to fight this all the way, even if it costs me my career!

To those that say "If company policy doesn't match the law it's not worth the paper it's written on" I disagree.
If it were that simple there would not be a legal industry!
There are issues over custom and practise, the fact that LIFO was applied in January this year and age discrimination to mention just a few.
On age discrimination, bear in mind, new pilots are of all ages thanks to age discrimination legislation, not so for the most senior.

So are 150 senior pilot tribunals, through Balpa or privately, really going to be cheaper than following the written policies? I think not!
In fact I think the management's present course is taking a hell of a risk with share holders money!

[drivez]

The only way LIFO would ever work is if everyone earns the same increment. That's what we should be campaigning for, a better basic salary with fewer increments. Otherwise the "bean counters" will always find some way to eliminate LIFO. The harsh reality will always be a year 1 Captain/ FO can do the job of flying passengers from A to B just as effectively as a year 17 Captain/ FO yet the more experienced crew earn far more. In their mind it's like having two machines that produce exactly the same thing, just one costs a lot more than the other.

Can't express how sorry I feel for those Flybe guys at the top of the list facing redundancy, also really hope there is some hope at winning this and putting a bit if job security back out there. If it all fails best of luck finding new jobs, it's not much but at least you have some hours.

[captplaystation]

seniortarget,

that is all so horribly machivellian/divisive/twisted that I feel sure you are probably 100% correct.

Itch,

what you are saying is a "fair", & "common sense" solution, but. . . . how often have you seen/heard airline management (or high-flying businessmen in general ) respecting either of these two principals.

[mad_jock]

There is a cap of 87k compensation for unfair dismissal.

And the last company I worked for that did redundancy's employed special lawyers to deal with it which included insurance for any compensation claims resulting from the redundancy. This was none airline though..

Acas - New compensation limits for dismissals set for 2013 (http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4074)

[Tourist]

Itch


What an unbelievably self centred pile of :mad:!


Essentially you are saying that FOs lives are already crap so it's not such a big deal to crap on them.


If I were a Flybe FO I would be rubbing my hands with glee at the prospect of the Senior captains getting it in the neck if they have attitudes like yours.


Senior people are less cost efficient than junior people.
They do no more work for more money.
No brainer, ditch the senior people.


The positive side of this is the death of the seniority system like senior target says.

[Set 1013]

Itch,

You are making huge assumptions in your last post! :ugh:

It doesn't help your argument.

[mad_jock]

I don't think anyone has disagreed with the fact that management are financially motivated to find the least cost solution. So the question is

Have Flybe management chosen the correct path.

Consider what I shall be seeking compensation for.

I will go from a Captains salary of £80,000 to a first officers salary of £50,000 and will be on that for lets say 5 years but it could easily be 10 years if I follow the companies guidance and am lucky enough to get a job with Monarch. That's a loss of earnings of between £150,000 to £300,000 and that's assuming I get a job straight away.

When I moved house a couple of years ago it cost about £40,000. Chances are I will have to relocate.

Then there is my wife's job, she has a good job but may not be able to do it if I have to relocate.

Then there is the stress that we are all being, unfairly, subjected to now. I for one have not had more than 5 hours sleep a night since this started!

And last but definitely not least are the court costs.

Multiply that lot by 150 and it adds up to............ A LOT

Now compare that to the costs involved in following the policy

Well to be fair we need to see the retraining and relocation costs from the company but many of us have Dash ratings already and as for published relocation costs, they are no way near what I shall be seeking compensation for!

Then lets look at the people who would be made redundant.

Most will be First Officers at the beginning of their careers. they will have read the redundancy policy and could not really claim to be surprised that the company followed the policy.

They will probably get a better if not similarly paid job else where so little or no lost earnings

They are probably in rented accommodation as they like to move around progressing their careers so moving costs are minimal.

They will probably get a job more quickly too. I guess most employers looking for First Officers would favour experienced FO's over experienced Captains.

They too will suffer the stress, I know that, I lost my FO's position and it sucked! But looking back I was lucky not to have a mortgage, wife and kids and an elderly parent to support!

Then there is the question of whether they would want to take the company to court. Its a small industry and when your working your way up do you want the trouble maker label? Some will and some will not.

As for me, my blood is boiling as are many of my colleagues. I'm prepared to fight this all the way, even if it costs me my career!

To those that say "If company policy doesn't match the law it's not worth the paper it's written on" I disagree.
If it were that simple there would not be a legal industry!
There are issues over custom and practise, the fact that LIFO was applied in January this year and age discrimination to mention just a few.
On age discrimination, bear in mind, new pilots are of all ages thanks to age discrimination legislation, not so for the most senior.

So are 150 senior pilot tribunals, through Balpa or privately, really going to be cheaper than following the written policies? I think not!
In fact I think the management's present course is taking a hell of a risk with share holders money!

from Itch.



Essentially you are saying that FOs lives are already crap so it's not such a big deal to crap on them.



Which pretty much ensures what the vote is going to be if BALPA puts it to the members.

[FlyingTinCans]

The OP asked the question if BALPA was fit for purpose.

BALPA is a labour union bound by the labour laws of the UK. BALPA is almost toothless when it comes to protecting its members because the labour laws of the UK make them toothless.

Can BALPA stop Flybe from doing it 'Saad's way' - no they can't, because until an employee has actually been dismissed, the union and employee can't claim unfair dismissal.

Does ignoring policy F mean a clean cut compensation claim for the employee - No. Because again the laws of the UK mean that just because its written in black and white doesn't mean it's legally binding. If the company can convince a judge that the policy is unworkable, unrealistic, unfit for purpose, and unfair to the greater workforce, then it could be deemed void.

Is policy F unfit for purpose - well Flybe needs drastic changes to survive, a turnaround within the constraints of policy F would bankrupt the company, doing nothing would bankrupt the company, not following policy F gives them a lifeline, a small gamble that if it went to court they wouldn't pay massive legal fees for unfair dismissal, however losing in court...... would bankrupt the company.

I honestly think that Flybe management are playing the only card they have left.

I have no dog in this fight, I left Flybe many moons ago. Just my 2 cents

[Tourist]

"I honestly think that Flybe management are playing the only card they have left. "


.......and all the other airline bosses are watching.

[mad_jock]

There will be quite a few of them laughing there pants off just now after having fights over routes and having to shut down bases themselves in the past because they couldn't afford to run the route at a lose like flybe was to get rid of them.

[captplaystation]

When I read this thread & (some of ) the attitudes therein (never mind the totally "unfit for purpose" industrial legislation) I am so glad I p1ssed off from the UK 21 years ago.

Tourist, you may be cheaper than Itch, but, in the old days we subscribed to "get what you pay for", hence why 17 years seniority may have commanded a premium.

Regretably in the i-phone generation, we seem to have lost the notion that experience has any value, & seem to believe that a steely eyed OS-X ace will do just as good a job as an old f@rt in all circumstances.

It is surely cheaper to keep all the young guys, but, should no consideration be given to the difficulty one of "advancing years" may have in sourcing alternative employment. The younger you are, assuredly the easier it is. Of course experience should count, but , in this cheapskate world it doesn't. Apart from loans to pay for the "coveted" ATPL/MPL /TR I would wager that older guys have more commitment in terms of families/mortgages etc. . yes you retort, but they have worked for long enough to have had the opportunity to have taken care of them. . . so, I shall settle for my final uttering. . . I think you are behaving like a disrespectful little :mad: to someone that possibly/probably trained/mentored/tested you. Congrats on your sense of levity.

[Trossie]

And may you enjoy FUBAR and keep your nose out of places that you don't like!

[Tourist]

captplaystation


Don't make assumptions.


Not young.
Not at Flybe.


And most certainly was never mentored by any **** with attitudes of entitlement like him.


Salaries should be earned by performance rather than place sitting.


p.s. he really does sound like the mentoring type, doesn't he, throwing women and children behind him in the interests of securing his position.

[Tourist]

Just reread your post.


Quite enlightening.


You bemoan the fact that experience does not count in this world yet support the seniority system that ossifies that exact system in place.


The moment you move airline, through choice or not, all your experience is worthless. You start at the bottom regardless.

[mad_jock]

I also suspect itch has never even spoken to a dash fo at work outside a crm course.

And he won`t be the only one on the jet fleet.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

One never mixed with the proles MJ :E

[Lord Spandex Masher]

'Twas ever thus. Pay offers weighted towards the Q400 fleet which. A fleet which had the bigger vote by virtue of having three times the number of pilots. Guess who won?

Only kidding about the proles, you occasionally had to talk to them if only to suggest they move out of the way. ;)

[jpboy]

The OP asked the question if BALPA was fit for purpose.

BALPA is a labour union bound by the labour laws of the UK. BALPA is almost toothless when it comes to protecting its members because the labour laws of the UK make them toothless.

Can BALPA stop Flybe from doing it 'Saad's way' - no they can't, because until an employee has actually been dismissed, the union and employee can't claim unfair dismissal.

Does ignoring policy F mean a clean cut compensation claim for the employee - No. Because again the laws of the UK mean that just because its written in black and white doesn't mean it's legally binding. If the company can convince a judge that the policy is unworkable, unrealistic, unfit for purpose, and unfair to the greater workforce, then it could be deemed void.

Is policy F unfit for purpose - well Flybe needs drastic changes to survive, a turnaround within the constraints of policy F would bankrupt the company, doing nothing would bankrupt the company, not following policy F gives them a lifeline, a small gamble that if it went to court they wouldn't pay massive legal fees for unfair dismissal, however losing in court...... would bankrupt the company.

HONOUR

All BALPA members listen to what is being said because it applies to every UK airline pilot. Have a look at your contract and work out which sections you think your compny will honour? Then consider the Flybe situation and if it impacts you. If your answer is, "I'm ok Jack", your head is firmly in the sand. Any BA pilots following this issue?

I feel for all those in Flybe at the moment. There but for the Grace of God.

BALPA is divided by it's structure, management know that. EASE FTL rulings have impacted on BALPA's perceived influence.

Is BALPA fit for purpose? I remain a member for individual grievance coverage.

Best fortune to all in Flybe.

[Itch]

Mud slinging ain't gonna help! Lets get back on point! (sorry mentoring over)

Should a company honour it's policies? Should the employees representatives (Balpa in this case) fight to ensure a company does so.

The time to decide whether you like those policies is before you join. I think a meritocracy like Easy Jet has many good points. I think the seniority system has many good things about it. Neither are perfect but we knew what we were joining when we did so.

Remember when it was illegal to trade on Sundays but they did it anyway because they made more money than the fine. That's what I believe Flybe are doing. They have figured out that it will probably (providing not too many people take them to court) be cheaper to break the agreements than to follow them.

My last post was an attempt to demonstrate one thing.

Why Flybe may have miscalculated.

The career of pilot is already second rate. How much further are we prepared to let it fall? Every time we let employers treat us like this it's another nail in the coffin.

[AtomKraft]

Folks.

It's 'Mind over matter'.

They don't mind, you don't matter.

Working overseas is better paid, much more enjoyable and not living in the UK has a set of advantages all it's own.

So glad I've left. ;)

From somebody who is more relaxed, better paid, healthier and warmer than he's ever been before.
And not paying UK tax either! :ok:

[Set 1013]

The company can and WILL do what they see fit. They will of sourced good sound legal advice before going down the route they have taken. That advice will be fact and based on current employment laws which has concluded that policy F is unsafe in its current format!

Regardless of your opinion on policy F, stop clutching at that straw! It is an inherited prehistoric document that is unfit in the current work place! Do you see this practise at other companies like Tesco when they have to make cuts? NO! Because it wrong!

Is BALPA unfit for purpose? YES! I left Balpa a long time ago for many reasons that I won't go into on here, but suffice to say I think they are a very expensive waist of space. My colleagues say to me you should be member to protect yourself. If that is the only reason people can give to be a member of a union then that says it all!

I will keep my fingers crossed for you itch and everybody else at risk, including myself! However the time has come to take this on the chin and move on with life. Nothing is certain and I feel for people who have their head in the sand thinking policy F will save them.

[Coffin Corner]

Itch, you make alot of assumptions. Did you read the latest balpa press release? They're still exploring if there is litigation to be answered. You may well end up a very, very disappointed little itch. How confident are you of even stepping into a courtroom? I'd be careful hedging your bets on this one.

[JB007]

At last, voice of reason set 1013...

A mirror of what I said on page 2, this decision is made...if you have the "at risk" letter, it will happen! Put your efforts into looking after number 1!

[Trossie]

Itch,

You need to call in sick. You are so wound up and short of sleep (your own admission) that no-one, crew or passenger, should have to fly with you. Print out a copy of your post #59 and take it off to your GP and he/she will certainly book you off. (And as this is all after you have been formally notified that you risk losing your job that will not be a period of sickness that will be able to be held against you and still stand up in any tribunal.)

Now to all of you Flybe pilots who are complaining about losing your bases/jobs, etc., just think very carefully about all the other pilots out there who lost their bases/jobs because of Flybe undercutting their airlines and making their routes and bases unviable when they had got by quite happily for years before that. It's that undercutting that has made Flybe unviable and causing your problems, but you didn't complain about it at the time. (To make it worse, Flybe now pulling off any of those routes will be adding insult to injury for any of those pilots who lost out to Flybe's predatory but unsustainable past practices.)

To those of you who are 'gloating' from afar (having left the UK 21 years ago, etc.), just shut up and carry on playing in your sandpit (but watch out that the cats don't cover you up!); it must be very, very boring there if there is nothing else to do other than put 2,000+ posts on PPRuNe!!

Now back to if BALPA is fit for purpose. BALPA is an Association (that is in its name) and it does that very well. As a union? Well, often it could do better, but it's up to the members to get involved and stay involved in order to make that work. And when you do so, stop trying to hark back to old 'civil service' style work practices, the world just doesn't work that way any more; try to get your agreements and practices up to date and realise that the airline is in the business to do... well, business! Airlines are not socialist-style pilots' careers support systems. I bet that most of those complaining bitterly about BALPA have not done anything about being personally involved with the union up to now. There is a saying that generally countries get the government that they deserve (i.e. apathy from the population allows a government to become whatever it becomes) -- the same applies to your union. Did you get involved? If the answer is 'no', then you've got what you deserve. But if you do get involved, be realistic: idiots like McCluskey are living in lala-land!

For all of you who are being realistic, good luck for new jobs.

[Artic Monkey]

Trossie

:= Don't come on here barking about what Flybe did to other airlines and then say we should think long and hard. Who the hell do you think you are? It's what's called business, survival of the fittest. Do you think we have a direct impact on the way the company does business? Is it our fault we pushed Air South West off the NQY-LGW routes? Is it our fault that they lost their jobs? Is it our fault that we are losing our jobs? I'm sorry they lost their jobs, I'm sorry we're losing our jobs but don't sit there implying we didn't give a :mad:. Not one person I have ever flown with have said they don't care about others losing their jobs, pathetic. :=

[captplaystation]

Trossie, if your main interest here is to gloat at the misfortune of others, merely because the company that employs them screwed your company over, I suggest your presence here is both unwelcome & inutile.

Don't know where you get the impression I spend my time building sandcastles , I spent 6 mths in the Sahara (on & off) some years ago, but am more likely to do igloos now.

The 2649 (+ a few deleted by myself & various mods ) posts are since 2002, so, plenty other ways to occupy myself thanks.

[Trossie]

...because the company that employs them screwed your company over...
Simply not true. But I have watched closely from the sidelines as others have been affected.

If "...what's called business, survival of the fittest" means that one fleet and its pilots survive, then that's just life. JB007 and Set 1013 have been the most realistic here.

And for those 'gloating' from afar about British employment practices, your comments here are surely an irritant to all affected.

Back to the topic though: Pilots must stop sitting back without getting involved then complaining like hell when 'someone else' doesn't do what they want for their own individual benefit. If BALPA is not fit for your purpose, what have you done to become involved in what BALPA has done up to now? Quit trying to blame someone else for your problems when you have not done anything yourself. If BALPA keeps some pilots in jobs at Flybe then they are 'fit for purpose'; if they insist on outdated practices that the airline can't afford and it pulls that airline down so that all the pilots there lose their jobs, then BALPA would not be 'fit for purpose'. Full stop.

[captplaystation]

gloat
gləʊt/
verb
gerund or present participle: gloating
1.
dwell on one's own success or another's misfortune with smugness or malignant pleasure.
"his enemies gloated over his death"
synonyms: delight in, relish, take great pleasure in, enjoy greatly, revel in, rejoice in, glory in, exult in, triumph over, crow over; More



What I said

When I read this thread & (some of ) the attitudes therein (never mind the totally "unfit for purpose" industrial legislation) I am so glad I p1ssed off from the UK 21 years ago.


What you said


Now to all of you Flybe pilots who are complaining about losing your bases/jobs, etc., just think very carefully about all the other pilots out there who lost their bases/jobs because of Flybe undercutting their airlines and making their routes and bases unviable when they had got by quite happily for years before that. It's that undercutting that has made Flybe unviable and causing your problems, but you didn't complain about it at the time. (To make it worse, Flybe now pulling off any of those routes will be adding insult to injury for any of those pilots who lost out to Flybe's predatory but unsustainable past practices.)



Well, I won't say "pot/kettle/black" because really, life is too short for handbags at dawn. As I said, glad to be out of it, highly recommend others to do the same if the chance arises, & I think telling soon to be redundant folks to remember what their company (their company mind, not THEM) may have done in the past, whilst not "gloating" per se, is certainly a little bit "up-yours", is it not ? Hopefully wherever they end up will have more welcoming souls than thee, who won't harbour irrational grudges against fellow professionals merely doing/needing a job. Like I said, so glad I left this twee/sick mentality behind 21 years ago.

Enjoy your fog :D


Now, "that" is gloating ;)

[seniortarget]

When you read all the other posts on terms of endearment, you begin to realise that this is just another chink in the armour of the UK pilots terms and conditions. Those at the bottom of the seniority list are keen to see the top 30% go so they can keep their jobs and to be honest who can blame them. If I was in their position I might be guilty of doing the same.
The sad thing is that by doing this they just allow another chink in the very thing that they have spent a lot of time and money investing in. 25 years from now when they are a Capt. of a large jet in a large airline and are told that the company needs to save money, so you and your fleet are going :eek: here's statuary redundancy of 10k for your loyalty, they won't even remember what happened 25 years previously.
We are our own worst enemy.

[exeng]

Tend to agree to Seniortarget here.

I have no axe to grind as I am quite well past my sell by date (although still flying overseas).

LIFO on its own as a redundancy process is by law it seems not acceptable.

However the acceptable 'new' legal process seems to favour business accountants in finding the most profitable route from redundancies.

Morally correct - I think not.

P.S. in the company I fly with they sack or decide to keep people at their own will - there are laws but nobody complies with them - Africa!

[slowjet]

Having come up through the sponsored route, I was terribly pleased with myself and terribly grateful to my sponsor to whom I was happy to pledge the rest of my career. I felt that good management means that there is no need for a union. I can hear the howls now ; "Good Management ?" ! I was not a member of BALPA but was constantly urged to join. I thought my management team were doing a great job and I had no need to be part of a Union.BALPA sent funds to the Labour party as a registered union and I really objected to that as a staunch Conservative ! But the "Teamster" types started to pressure . Even the company stated to me that they were a BALPA company & that since BALPA negotiated my terms & agreements, I should join or, at least , send my potential BALPA subscriptions to my fave charity. I argued that I was capable of negotiating my own terms & conditions & would pay myself the subscription. There was general laughter but the Company admitted that I might wind up with better conditions than the members had negotiated.

I later joined a non-union company. The Management were a dream and actually told us that there would never be a need for union activity. Bad management leads to people feeling that they need to "unite". We were all , of course, free to join BAPLA but the Company decided that they would not negotiate terms & conditions with BALPA.

The Union has undoubtedly done very well in all sorts of areas and the feeling that one should have to unite in order to secure deals lies purely at the feet of the bad management companies. Of course, the rotters are there to make money rather than employ pilots & they will , with or without BALPA.

Like my colleague, catplaystation, I headed out of the UK as quick as I could get my hands on a useful rating & never returned,professionally , taking my career destiny within my own shaping. I think I did rather well. Never found the need to unite and dealt only with sensible management.

Is BALPA fit for purpose. I think they are, really, but there will always be areas where they have little, if any effect.

Good luck to all who face the awful spectre of unemployment, especially at this heady time of year

[Ancient Observer]

No Union anywhere has magic wands.
A TU is, and can only be, what its members want it to be.

Like the rest of us, any TU has to work within the Employment laws that Mr Blair and Mr Brown gave us.

Any UK based Pilot slagging off BALPA is effectively slagging themsleves off.

[Itch]

This question goes out to the legal brains reading this thread.

If we forget for a moment that Flybe have a global workforce, not a base, based, workforce. Policy, custom and practise of LIFO, regardsless of seat fleet or base.
In pure employment law where do we stand on the 3 different scenarios that are proposed in Flybe's redundancy program?

1. Complete base closure
2. Complete removal of one type of aircraft at a mixed fleet base.
3. Reduction in number of one aircraft type at a mixed fleet base.




To answer a few questions asked previously

I think this issue effects the majority of UK pilots. If you look at the 3 scenarios above it tests most of the available options. So I believe this forum is more appropriate than a Flybe specific forum.

I agree that for a wider (than Flybe) audience polisy F and some more detail would be useful. I'm pretty stretched at the moment, can any one help with that?

[Tags]

Ancient Observer
A TU is, and can only be, what its members want it to be.

Not officially true. 97% of the Virgin Atlantic members gave BALPA very clear instructions a couple of years ago. It was ignored, with no real explanation or justification to this day.



Any UK based Pilot slagging off BALPA is effectively slagging themsleves off.

I'd disagree. Following on from the above, the majority of Virgin Atlantic members joined a brand new association, and terminating their membership of BALPA.

Back to the topic, Flybe members pay a lot of money to BALPA; ensure they act in your collective interest & not their own.

[mad_jock]

itch

1. they can make everyone on the base redundant and there is plenty of case law on that one with other company's both airline and other.

They can keep critical skills if they so wish ie if they want to keep a TRE they can do but if there is more than one with the same skill set there has to be some sort of matrix about which who stays and seniority can be one of the criteria.

2. Again the whole fleet can go and any that are held onto the matrix has to be applied to. But they can't just get rid of everyone else and keep a few without a valid selection matrix.

3. This is the difficult one and it all depends on the matrix used for selection and if its deemed legal or not.

The matrix could be.

1. Base
2. Fleet type
3. TRE/TRI
4. disciplinary recorded.
5. Seniority.

But they can move the items around as they and there lawyers see fit. The base and fleet redundancy is pretty sound in my opinion. They shouldn't have much problem with keeping the training team if they so wish but there is no requirement to.

The selection away amongst the rest is the hard bit. It can depend if you contract is for a pilot or its defined by your seat ie is their a FO's contract and when the upgrade they get a Captains contract. If its like that it might not be possible to slide people back into the RHS. Because the different seats would be defined as different jobs. Where as if the contract was just for pilot the seat allocation wouldn't be part of the job description.

But what ever happens that job has to be vacant for a year. Then using other bases on a route I don't think has been tested yet. ie if they completely get rid of one base and serve the same route from another base using the same aircraft type. Then within that year they expand the new base up by say filling it with cadets and upgrading FO's to LHS. But I doubt they would be stupid enough to try that. They will just wait a year and then they can expand at will.

But this is just the opinion of another pilot that's done the managers employment law basic course not the HR one which is 4 weeks. And had experience of redundancy's outside aviation.

[Alan Fresco]

I whole-heatedly agree with SeniorTarget!!
Genius!!

[captplaystation]

Would it be a "Saturday Night over -generalisation" to say that it is all a crock of :mad: ?

At these moments we find that words such as loyalty/ability/professionalism/ trust/flexibility. . are totally one-sided & readily cast aside as the victims of expedient profiteering on the back of (slightly) difficult commercial rationalisation.

I have already put a nose (or two ) out of joint on this thread, and, I really, have no dog in this fight, so will sign out by wishing all affected the best of luck (and don't ignore my advice in my previous posts to get the hell out of that damp little island if you can )

[seniortarget]

Thanks Alan.
Ok Captplaystation, I'll bite. Genuinely interested to know where would you recommend ?

[Trossie]

Now that that self-opinionated git has disappeared back to his igloo to freeze his nuts off, those who know what they are talking about can continue without irritating interruptions.

Itch, some 'case history' on the base/fleet reductions: about a decade ago an airline now Connected to yours (there's a clue there) got rid of two entire fleets and a whole lot of bases in one fell swoop. Pilots were laid off, although in many cases with back-hand deals with another airline to take a select few. There was a tribunal case where it appears to have been made clear that if your base or fleet was going you were at risk, regardless of any 'seniority' system. Going on that it appears that the answer to your points 1. & 2. are that you are at risk. Your point 3. would be a bit more of a problem where some system, acceptable to employment law, would need to be used to select who goes. That all fits in with mad_jock's comments. One point is that any system for selecting people for redundancy should be set up before there is any risk of redundancies to be looked at very favourably by any tribunal. Selection processes that are cobbled up as the threat for redundancy occurs are likely to be picked to pieces by any tribunal. Maybe that is why the straight fleet/base system is being used in your case: it is straightforward and unlikely to be picked to pieces if there is any tribunal.

BALPA's role? It should have been to ensure that a viable selection process was in place well before the threat of redundancies and that that process would be financially viable, i.e. it wouldn't cost so much to carry out that process that it would drain on the airline's resources to the point that they'd have to get rid of a greater number of pilots to 'fund' the costs incurred by the redundancy selection process (e.g. if lots of pilots need to be retrained onto other fleets or transferred to other bases at the airline's expense). When redundancies are threatened, BALPA should be looking at ways of reducing the number at threat by helping the airline to keep people. In BMI they appear to have helped save several jobs by getting all pilots to agree an effective pay reduction in order to fund the retention of those pilots at risk. Have they been working on either of these in your airline? Also, the effectiveness of BALPA in your airline will only be as good as the effectiveness of your reps. If you're a member you could have stood to be a rep and you most certainly should have voted for candidates. Often there are reps who are only in it for themselves, it is up to you as members to see that and stop them. So, BALPA is only as effective as its members. So, are its members 'fit for purpose'?

And as for those that complain about the downward trend in Ts &Cs, well when the money runs out, so do the Ts & Cs. If you were working for any other type of business and you saw poor business practices, the sensible thing to do would be to jump ship early and get a job with another (competitor?) employer that seemed to have his corporate business head screwed on the right way. However, too many in the airline world are shackled from moving by that curse called 'The Seniority List'.

[captplaystation]

The Black Sheep Brewery, Masham North Yorkshire (http://www.blacksheepbrewery.com/)

Can't expect too much "couthness" from a Yorksh¡reman I guess. . . . it's OK, igloos are only for nightstops. Home is cool at nights now, but normally 20c for Xmas. Base is min 22c all year round, considerably more in the South of the island .

Didn't leave that wet damp patch of land for somewhere even less agreeable.:=

Then again, based on your "posting history", maybe this takes precedence over Yorkshireness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZjwCmJrnlY

[Leg]

Some post there Trossie, you managed to get everything you said spectacularly wrong, must be a first on pprune! :ok:

Oh and one other thing, flybe pilots did vote for a pay cut to save jobs, look where that bright idea got us. :ouch:

You are an embarrassment to this forum.

Itch, good luck.

Captplaystation, fair enough and I see where you are coming from,
but some really want to stay in this 'damp little island', hence why
they joined this bunch in the first place! (Or the other bunch before
the sell off/take over)

[captplaystation]

seniortarget,

sorry I missed your post there (probably due to the slagging off that followed it)

I am not very au fait with opportunities on Embraer (or are you a Dash man ? ) but it seems Emb time is quite acceptable to get you into a Bus/ Boeing, so perhaps you have to look at a type change (hopefully not involving SSTR, but maybe a bond ? )
Q400 Commanders have recently gone into Sun Express as DEC on B738, so it seems that the market for experienced Commanders is fairly buoyant at least on a global scale.

In terms of location, well, difficult to recommend Turkey, but you may have to accept a period of cr@p involving commuting until experience on a new type gets you back home. Not fun I know (only too well) but you have to look a couple of years down the line.

It is purely personal opinion, but my experience of these scenarios tells me that the time to move is NOW, so that you jump, rather than are pushed. It is easier to find opportunities & to stand out in a pile of C.Vs if the pile is not chock a block with your peers all applying for the same thing at the same time.
If you truly feel that your demise is likely, difficult as it may be , the time to act is now.

We all have different ties/priorities but my UK company opening a French base ,coincident with an impending divorce on my part, was the best thing that happened to me in terms of quality of life 21 years ago.

12 years in France 9 in Spain, I cannot think of circumstances that would tempt me back.
Different strokes/Different folks & all that, but most colleagues who have left the UK (excluding those that commute back on days off) don't seem in a rush to go back. The World is a big place, our island is quite small(minded)in the grand scheme of things. Great to visit once in a while, that way you only see the good stuff.

[Trossie]

The playstation kid has discovered Google! A bit out of date though, why didn't you find Hunt still on for nice South African (http://newsthump.com/2013/02/21/hunt-still-on-for-nice-south-african/)? They seem as easy a 'wind up' target as you! Divorced? There's no surprise!

Leg, what exactly was 'spectacularly wrong'? You are quite right to want to stay in a country that you enjoy. Problem is that you have to keep a lot more than half and eye on the viability of your employer and be ready to move if it becomes too questionable. No 'schedules' to agreements count for anything when the money runs out. And that doesn't just apply to where you now live and would like to stay, wherever you are when the money runs out so do the Ts & Cs. Maybe you did vote for a paycut to try to save the situation, but maybe it was already too late? Maybe without it the layoffs now would be higher? People who constantly try to blame 'someone else' are those who should be embarrassed.

Back to the topic: BALPA is fit for purpose, it's just that some people have distorted ideas of what they think the purpose should be.

[captplaystation]

Ha Ha, well, we have to laugh at ourselves no ? Divorced ? Hell Yeah, I am Scottish & she was English :ugh: (although not from Yorkshire :D ) WHAT was I thinking about :eek:.

To deviate (briefly) back to the original thread. . . . if you want decent employment law, you have to live somewhere that has been a bit Commie in the past, disregarded the meddlings of the rest of the world, and is probably doomed to go down the drain like the rest of Europe once their protectionist regime is scuppered for the greater good (?) by the Brussels Bully Boys. . . Vive la France (except it is probably too late. . . regretably)