Extraordinary definition of 'adequate'.

['round midnight]

Well done G.C.
You've extracted a promise of nothing from Cathay, backdated to tomorrow.
Quite an achievement!
Yours adequately,
'RM.

[Private Pile]

I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate the CX negotiating team... A job well done! They deserve every dollar of the bonuses they will likely receive after this... :D

[broadband circuit]

Even though it's not "official", I can't see how anyone could not be doing CC effective immediately.

Everyone's been saying for months (even years??) that if we went into CC, the wheels would stop turning within a few days. Well, I think we're about to see it happen, even without AOA endorsement.

Meetings scheduled 6 - 10 January, so at the very earliest an announcement by 14 or 15 January.

I can see problems crewing aircraft from now until at least the middle of January. Glad I'm not on leave across the Xmas-NY-CNY period.

[Trafalgar]

Oh, this is priceless. I'm taking approximately a $1000 usd PAY CUT on 1st January...and apparently it's being used to fund the PAY RISE of all the other HK staff....! You couldn't make this up.

I don't mind a fair and reasoned debate about pay and conditions. What I DO mind however is being taken completely for a fool. CX management, you have crossed a line this time. You have breached ANY trust that existed between us. You have mocked us, and taken us for granted. There will be repercussions for this. Guaranteed.

[Oval3Holer]

Silberfuchs,

Just one thing:

First Officers will have a very hard time keeping their jobs if the captain decides that discretion will be used and the FO has no choice but to report unfit so that he does not have to operate into discretion.

As for the rest, RIGHT ON!

[goathead]

Do not fear, there are too many G day heroes out there ready to answer the call , our ranks are RIFE with them, RIFE :ugh::ugh:

[badairsucker]

So true
jnb the other night was crewed by a G day hero, in fact he worked 2 Gs to help out.

knob.

[boxjockey]

Time for a name-and-shame campaign. Nothing will stop it faster.

box

[iceman50]

Box

The only problem with your witch hunt approach is that some of the G day "hero's" could actually be making roster adjustments to make their life better. They might want the day off for their wife's / children's birthdays etc, requested it but did not get it.
No doubt the way some of the "loud" shouters on here adjust their roster when they do not want to operate a specific flight but are quite happy to shaft their mates.
Naming and shaming is not the way to go and could be classed as intimidation! If you do name some on here then attach your REAL name as well so that we know who the accuser is as well as the accused.

[twotigers]

Iceman, you must be management, as you seem to want to distract others and confuse the situation. The only way things work is unity. Cabin Crew manage to back up their threats with action and media attention. AOA doesn't do anything but talk in circles.

1) Day 1. Edict from AOA saying no more G day workers.
2) Day 2. Name any and all G day workers on AOA site, with a warning.
3) Day 3. Any subsequent G day working is removal from AOA, jumpseats, ect.

Thats it.

Problem solved. The vast majority are spineless and will cave to peer pressure.

['round midnight]

Tonight, two flights available for G day brothers. I know, Crew Control left a message.
One of them has already been crewed by a G hero. Depressing.
Whatever the reason, G day working is not something we should be doing at this juncture, if ever....
Imagine if we'd been in C.C today and those two flights were cancelled?
That's how much impact C.C could have, theoretically, yet the G.C threw that away yesterday.
The company needs us in a very practical way, so why did the G.C surrender our leverage?
Depressing.

[twotigers]

I disagree. Naming and shaming is the ONLY way.. followed by union action.

Anything else is a waste of time, other than perhaps a "GO SLOW" environment that causes a lot of misconnects. Perfect for the holiday season. If enacted within the nest two weeks.

Once in place, we work with ALL media outlets to shame CX and to let the public know that many will be missing their connections.

It's not rocket science.

[positionalpor]

As posted on a different thread, when AA pilots were taxiing at 10 Kts in O' Hare,
Besides pissing everyone else off, they jammed the whole bloody airport. No one could tell them anything since it is legal. Right?

[boxjockey]

Iceman,

Spoken like a true G day hero!! If you didn't get the time off for something very important, then the stress would obviously cause you to be unfit for duty. Just ask the fleet office what they suggest in these circumstances. Un-f@cking believable!!!!

box

[Yeager]

what has happened in CX just now? why's everybody so wound up? Just came across a remark about. I never understood why people don't just go sick, sick and more sick = hourly pay increase = be home with friends, family - whatever.. It's not that hard - you just gotta not give a rat's ass about at company that doesn't give a rat's ass about you.

[monster330]

I understand your frustration. We all do

This company does not care. At all. Ever.

One line from your post stood out. Your reference to "you have just made my mind up"

Why would you let anyone make up your mind for you? Make it up for yourself.

Time is now to make plans to exit this company. There is no future with Cathay pacific. At all. Ever.

Wisen up boys n girls. This job is done.

[monster330]

I understand your frustration. We all do

This company does not care. At all. Ever.

One line from your post stood out. Your reference to "you have just made my mind up"

Why would you let anyone make up your mind for you? Make it up for yourself.

Time is now to make plans to exit this company. There is no future with Cathay pacific. At all. Ever.

Wisen up boys n girls. This job is done.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Before everyone has a go at the Union, classic scapegoat imho, please let's not forget who the enemy is..

Wait what they have to tell us on the 10th. Don't forget these guys act in good faith ( I have no doubt), and are doing this time-consuming job voluntarily and without compensation.

I haven't been in the room when they talked with the company.

It is easy to blame them.

Now is not the time to leave the Union, it is time to join it.

[goathead]

My take is a MASS RESIGNATION from the HKAOA is exactly what is required right now to send a very clear message to the GC ..... the more that do the more they will get it .I mean lets face it , if you agree that they have crossed the line with this insult , there IS NO other choice . Why ignore 94% ???
They have baked there own cake , its the end of the road as far as Im concerned.

[eggraid]

Then what Goathead? Are you going to go in and negotiate a 40% raise for us all? Seriously get a grip people! You guys remind of recess at kindergarten.

[goathead]

The AOA Canada reminded me of the same thing a while ago.
No ones going to go and negotiate us a 40 % increase what planet are you from , oh I see , your Canadian.

[broadband circuit]

Open-slather naming & shaming is a very dangerous path. (No, I'm not management). As much as I hate the G day worker brigade, the risk of an incorrect accusation being levelled at an innocent individual is too high IMHO. Once a name is in the public domain, it takes a hell of a lot of retractions or evidence of innocence to clear that person's record. As an example, there were a few people wrongly accused of working in Australia in '89. Have all of them had their names cleared, both on the official record and in the minds of heir colleagues?


The "mutual exchange" system is grossly biased in the company's favour, but still pilots do swaps everyday. Just because someone had a G on their published roster today, doesn't mean they hadn't swapped it to help a friend. Maybe that friend could actually be making roster adjustments to make their life better. They might want the day off for their wife's / children's birthdays etc, requested it but did not get it.

I guess that everyone here who's called for a name and shame campaign won't work G days. Fair enough, I don't either. But I genuinely ask all of you how you would feel, as a staunch non-worker, if you were wrongly named and shamed. I know I'd be devastated.

Bad idea......

[nitpicker330]

You boys can jerk off all you want, yes it's disappointing in the extreme but what else did you expect from them????

Come on, you really expected CX to give you a big pay rise now????

Let's face it fellas, CX is still the best gig in town and you know it.

So shut up and let the GC to the job they are not paid to do.

If you think you can do better then STEP UP.

I for one WILL NOT BE WALKING FROM CX, now or ever until I can afford to retire. If you wish to join China Southern then go.

Oh and by the way, I haven't worked a G day in over 10 years and don't plan to, we don't need to be told to work to our contracts do we?

[eggraid]

Sorry Goathead I guess you didn't understand that I was being facetious. This is what facetious means.

fa•ce•tious (fəˈsi ʃəs)
1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2. amusing; humorous.
3. lacking serious intent: a facetious person.

The serious part of the question is "Then what?"

This is a serious question to you and anyone else that thinks leaving the AOA is the solution.

You say mass resignation from the HKAOA so that the GC will get it?

If you have mass resignations there is no more HKAOA and therefore no more GC or NC. If that happens I believe we will find the true bottom threshold of our package until people start to leave.

It's easy to spot the problems, but try coming up with a better solution than resignation.

As broken as it may seem it really is all we have so we need to leave the errors in the past a move forward with what we have now.

[PanZa-Lead]

Like everyone I was furious at the AOA. I have decided, after much thought and 24yrs in the AOA, that I will wait until the January talks outcome and then decide to resign or not. As usual I will continue my CC that I have been doing for 15 yrs now.
The CAD informed the top C&T guys 2 months ago that the new FTL's will be part of a package deal in to come out in January. This information was forwarded to the GC of the AOA.

[Killaroo]

I never understood why people don't just go sick, sick and more sick = hourly pay increase = be home with friends, family - whatever.. It's not that hard - you just gotta not give a rat's ass about at company that doesn't give a rat's ass about you.

Excuse my ignorance, but doesn't CX require Sick Certs to back up sick leave?
In my experience HK doctors won't give Certs out so easy. I've been through this - had fevers so bad I couldn't get out of bed, but when I finally got to a doctor I was refused Certs for the days I was too ill to visit. They won't give a cert if they haven't seen you.
On another occasion I went to a doc when I started getting the onset symptoms of one of those HK fevers I've become all too familiar with. She would give me 2 sick days and no more. When I asked why she told me she'd be reported to the HK Medical Board by my employer if she gave me any more.
I bet CX have company drs too, who can make house calls, just to catch the malingerers?
Your proposal is unworkable in a mass sick out. You'll get no cooperation from the medics.

[nitpicker330]

I gave a reference to OPSA for him but deleted it after I realized he was not in CX.

[Killaroo]

I can easily get a copy. I have friends everywhere.
So post away.
Are you referring to self certification, or some more obscure barrack room lawyer angle?
By the way - if you don't want others noticing your posts - why post on a public website? Don't you have private forums? Some people might find this all too tedious.

[ETOPS240]

Why don't you utilise your friends, and look it up then?

In short, the scenarios you describe/have experienced would not be applicable. The fact that they are in your outfit (assuming you're a pilot) is utterly atrocious.

[goathead]

Eggraid
Fair enough , apologise for overzealousness.This turnabout from the GC is just another one of there about turns in the face of the majorities wishes .....need I have to repeat them here.
Thats it for me , she's cheated on me before , a second time , no f**k her , thats it . Sorry confidence lost. End of story. Sayonara AOA .
How many times are you/ we going to be treated like this , no more for me . My message to the GC is , No more.Ill take my 12k pay rise .

[crwkunt roll]

Whatever happens in the January "talks".... They have to get rid of the backdating to JAN 14 bullsh1t.

[twotigers]

YES.

The AOA is a tool the company uses to control the pilots. By a mass resignation, it shows people ready to action. The first step. It will indeed get their attention.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Destroying the union to hurt management, now this really sounds like a very reasonable strategy.

[twotigers]

you .. like most others in the AOA, have ZERO idea on how to negotiate.

[Killaroo]

- the scenarios you describe/have experienced would not be applicable. The fact that they are in your outfit (assuming you're a pilot) is utterly atrocious.

You mean - having to produce a Sick Cert?
I've worked in a couple of airlines, including majors, and a Sick Cert is required in all of them, bar a few days self certified (where you may receive a company doctor visit). If you think that's atrocious you must live in a bubble, and I'm really keen to check your OMA now to read all about it.
By the way - the system I work under is approved by the CAD. The same one that approves your own OMA.

[ETOPS240]

No bubble here, sir.

Read away, and let me know if I'm mistaken.

Doctor visit? Jesus Christ. Are you required to answer the phone to arrange it, or answer the door?

Sounds entirely cynical if you ask me - policing rather than well being.

[Killaroo]

Well, in my euro major i never got that visit - but then I was not a malingerer.
In Hong Kong, given that local drs never do house calls, a company doctor might be the only assistance you'll get, and I'd welcome it (cos I'm still not a malingerer). The only alternative (I'm told) is to call an ambulance, and I draw the line at that personally.

[Not Hiding]

Checking remuneration in 2000 and 2013 shows that the top US-based FO at 84 hours credit earns 15% more dollars now than in 2000.

Inflation/cost of living has increased (conservatively) by 38% since 2000.

That means an immediate 20% increase in remuneration is necessary just to put us where we were in living standard 13 years ago.

[GANKER]

AOA is simply put, another way of saying CPA! Always been that way.
WAKE UP!

[twotigers]

Well Dan.. then everyone does their own thing for a bit.. making it very hard for everyone to be controlled singularly.
This will frustrate the companies attempts and make their past strategies ineffective.

You still don't get the AOA is CPA. Its not for the pilots. Its to control the pilots.

And so many of you think the same. You're brainwashed.. sick.. and cannot think rationally as you've been convinced the sky is red, and no amount of telling you its blue will help.

We shouldn't be surprised.. the hiring and psych testing done, gets them the right "type" of pilot 90% of the time. Very few here are free thinkers.

The rest are self involved sheep.

The AOA is NOT a union. There is no recognition or rights/protections in HK as such. It's a mechanism for company control.

[Threethirty]

Exactly just what I've said all along. Ultimately they all go to the same Masonic lodge in Hong Kong.

[DUSKY DOG]

They shafted the Flight engineers and the AOA did nothing
They brought in the B scale and AOA said they would not come
We only 269 WENT OUT SICK FOR THE 3 WEEKS IN 99 and the AOA watched on the sidelines.
The 49 were stood aside and the AOA watched and did not act.
They said there would always be a premium for those that reside in HKG, but.....
They said salaries would always be aligned to inflation but......
Dont forget that all the conditions of service that you know enjoy were all fought for or lost by the members.
Unfortunately its your choice, fight for your believed remuneration or leave.
Cause no one else will.

[Thunderbird4]

Karl Marx figured out that you can control a slave much better by convincing him he is an employee.

[nitpicker330]

Wow, the excuses the non members make to justify their selfishness is awesome to behold.. Well done, now nick off..:mad:

[CX-HOR]

Who are being selfish?

Wow nitpicker such anger towards non-members.
When I look back on recent changes to my contract voted on by the AOA it seems that the selfishness is most prominent from the president/GC.

For example:
Credit Free Reserve with no FDP start time so MG could get A days.
RA65 with no compensation for non-Captains so PW got full B scales at 55, whilst "forgetting" to lock in 25 year housing.
RP04 with the loss of 5-4-3 protection so ST got what, who knows?

Since I joined CX I have seen every AOA vote seemingly go against the longterm interests of the majority of members.

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of G day workers are also AOA members, why not? The GC have not once implemented CC in the last 12 years. I guess we have not felt aggrieved at all in this period.

I do not have to be in a Union which won't represent my interests to not work on a G day.

[cxorcist]

CX-HOR,

Yours is a very informed post. Sometimes calling people out by name is necessary. Hopefully, PW and DD take note. The fate of the AOA is resting in their hands at this stage. I hope they are capable.

CXorcist

PS - I'll add that their biggest weapon is our wrath. I hope they channel it if it is needed, which it probably will be if they intend to get a good deal for us.

[cpdude]

With selfish individuals in a position which enables them to be self-centered, is it no wonder that they (PV, PW, GDC and DD) want nothing to do with the ONLY solid union in the CX pilot group? They can't freelance policy and direction while in an association run on a legitimate legal framework.

Time for a reunification of the pilot group and the removal of the 3+1!

[The FUB]

The company's response is perfectly adequate, as far as they are concerned.

1. Put a big wedge on the AOA's membership.
2. Offer a few base slots with reduced COS, if there is a large scramble then reducing COS further will be an available tool.
3. No immediate pay rise equals more budget savings.

In any battle the commander will have his deception plan, his/her dummy sidestep then right out of the left field the killer blow, unexpected.

Maybe we should be considering how their "offer" will split the membership further, how far will be be prepared to go?
1.US bases at 96hrs credit before EFP? (I'm Aussie so doesn't affect me)
2. PX on freighter. (I'm Airbus so dosen't affect me)
3. Reduced COS and handing back BPP. (I'm a cn on a base so doesn't affect me)
4. Reduction in housing to give new joiners an increase. (Made my money from housing so doesn't affect me)

CX know that it will be a divide and conquer offer, be prepared, leave the GC to draw the lines in the sand.

Now is the time to consolidate our position, every hour spent arguing with the GC, means less time for the GC to formulate a successful plan. We voted the GC to represent us, give them the space to do the job, in 2 months time the landscape may be so different it's unrecognisable.

In the meantime if you as an individual want to make a difference, stop answering the phone and working G days, or check the person next to you and ask are you a G day hero? IF so no sector for you matey, ever again. We will not improve our conditions unless CX are forced to, there is no cost for goodwill on the accountants bottom line.

United we stand, divided we fall.

[CX-HOR]

Divide and Conquer:


Already used, remember the last pay-deal withheld the first 5% increase for Junior Captain scales in return for no more Freighter only commands (as if the Company needed any more Freighter only CNs). Yet we still accepted that deal as well, meaning every non Senior Captain was affected by that deal.