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nomorecatering
5th Dec 2013, 20:51
News channels in Oz are reporting the passing of Nelson Mandela. The world is a poorer place for his passing.

500N
5th Dec 2013, 20:54
Sad to hear. A shining light in the world.

RIP.


Now to watch the family fight over his legacy :(

Sir George Cayley
5th Dec 2013, 20:58
Now on BBC, so it must be true!

How SA reacts to this and the effect on the wider continent is anybodies guess.

I've always been somewhat ambivalent towards him so the obligatory RIP and condolences seem too hard to write.

Nevertheless, I do feel sorry for any pain and sorry experienced by his extended family.

SGC

timgill
5th Dec 2013, 21:08
Capetonian?

El Grifo
5th Dec 2013, 21:10
He is sure free now. Nelson. What a man !

Amy Winehouse "Free Nelson Mandela" (Treacy version) - YouTube

angels
5th Dec 2013, 21:15
I remember watching his speech live on CNN the day he was released.

I saw him speak in Trafalgar Square in the noughties.

One of the great statesmen of the 20th century.

Will Hung
5th Dec 2013, 21:20
Trigger LOADS of politically correct grief !

To those scumbags who celebrated Maggie Thatchers passing, how would you now feel if anyone did the same about Nelson Mandela ? Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the passing of ANY decent human being should be celebrated.

Lonewolf_50
5th Dec 2013, 21:23
He left his mark. Like him or not, he made a difference in the world.
I suspect there are mixed feelings about this among various folks in SA.

racedo
5th Dec 2013, 21:29
Nelson Mandela showed that the power of forgiveness was greater than the power of revenge.

flying lid
5th Dec 2013, 21:31
RIP Nelson, a good man, rare in the political scene these days.

By co-incidence the Duchess of Cambridge & Prince William are at the Royal Film Performance in London of the film Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom as I type.

Kate shows off some leg in full-length cream gown featuring thigh-high split as she attends Royal Film Performance of Mandela alongside Prince William | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2518959/Kate-shows-leg-length-cream-gown-featuring-thigh-high-split-attends-Royal-Film-Performance-Mandela-alongside-Prince-William.html)

Lid

papajuliet
5th Dec 2013, 21:34
Wasn't he once a terrorist?

racedo
5th Dec 2013, 21:40
Wasn't he once a terrorist?

So was
Oliver Cromwell
George Washington
Willy Brandt
Most of Israel Govts for first 40 years

Will Hung
5th Dec 2013, 21:48
Martin McGuiness ?

Now he's a Statesman !

ex_matelot
5th Dec 2013, 21:48
terrorist. gerry adzms with a suntan.


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timgill
5th Dec 2013, 21:51
What utter chagrin. I would expect better from all of you.

ex_matelot
5th Dec 2013, 21:55
faux-grief. how utterly cheap.


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BenThere
5th Dec 2013, 21:55
Let him go with honor and dignity. His movement had faults but was essentially based on irrefutable truth.

Shame the ultimate result of his struggle was the destruction of South Africa.

Mikehotel152
5th Dec 2013, 21:55
Mandela was a special man, no doubt. An inspiration to all.

Will Hung
5th Dec 2013, 21:59
BenThere, very succinct.

ex_matelot
5th Dec 2013, 22:00
may as well write off the bbc for the next month.


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Ivor Fynn
5th Dec 2013, 22:01
A sad loss, a great man who fought for what he believed in. The world is a poorer place without him.

Ivor

Capetonian
5th Dec 2013, 22:06
It was time for him to go. The ANC have used and abused him for too long for political purposes.

He has been spared the knowledge of the destruction that his successors in the ANC have wrought upon the country for which he had so much hope and for which he did so much.

“I see Robben Island as a celebration of the struggle and a symbol of the finest qualities of the human spirit, rather than as a monument to the brutal tyranny and oppression of apartheid.

Robben Island was once a place of darkness, but out of that darkness has come a wonderful brightness, a light so powerful that it could not be hidden behind prison walls…"
Nelson Mandela

G-CPTN
5th Dec 2013, 22:10
It is a shame (as someone else on PPRuNe pointed out) that eulogies only get aired when the subject has departed.

PAXboy
5th Dec 2013, 22:19
Every spare seat to JNB + CPT for the next week - just got it's price hiked to the maximum. A lot of journalists may have to hop via an intermediate African (or other) country to get there.

Buster Hyman
5th Dec 2013, 22:27
Sorry, I'd rate Desmund Tutu over Nelson Mandela in South Africa's efforts to abolish Apartheid. He never saw the need for violence to end it.

dfdasein
5th Dec 2013, 22:37
Nelson Mandela's death was announced to all the world by Jacob Zuma. I'm at a loss for words.

ManUtd1999
5th Dec 2013, 22:42
Just as I said after Thatcher died, if you've nothing nice to say on this thread, keep quiet. One of the great statesmen of the 20th century has died and he deserves some respect.

ex_matelot
5th Dec 2013, 22:47
why? .........


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ManUtd1999
5th Dec 2013, 23:00
Because he stood for equality and fairness, because he is one of the main reasons apartheid is over, because he is the reason black South Africans are free today.

You're on completely the wrong side of history. As someone pointed out, Cromwell, Washington etc are all "terrorists" as well by your definition, the difference is they were fighting a just cause. I don't know, maybe you'd sooner the ANC hadn't won and apartheid still existed, but you can have that debate somewhere else.

Capetonian
5th Dec 2013, 23:05
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Whether one regarded Mandela as a saint or a sinner, a freedom fighter or a terrorist, a liberator or a saboteur, he conducted himself with dignity and decorum at all times, and was utterly committed to the cause he believed in.

For that he deserves respect.

Capetonian
6th Dec 2013, 00:15
as for the ANC, would murderous thugs be too strong a description? No, and there are many more negatives one could express about the ANC and its deceit, misery, kleptocracy and corruption. It is also worth remembering that Nelson Mandela distanced himself from, and expressed his disappointment with, the ANC.

gorter
6th Dec 2013, 00:37
I'm not South African and the only link
I have to the country is i went on holiday there a few years ago. The man's life was split almost equally into thirds. A third as a child/young man a third in prison and a third as a world statesman. Yes as a young man he was classed by the world as a terrorist. But the people he was fighting weren't exactly choir boys either.

Both sides had disgusting atrocities that can be attributed to them however what made Nelson Mandela a great man is that he never sought revenge. It would have been so easy for him to grab power and become a despotic African ruler, but he didn't. He had one term of office and then he let the country do what it had to. I have very little time or respect for the leaders of the country since then, but Mandela did the right thing. He allowed the truth commission to happen. He didn't need to but it did.

South Africa and the world is a poorer place without him.

SASless
6th Dec 2013, 01:35
Because he stood for equality and fairness, because he is one of the main reasons apartheid is over, because he is the reason black South Africans are free today.

ManU.....just asking....but how are the White South Africans doing these days post Mandela's Term in Office? Things as good now as during his time in office?

Dak Man
6th Dec 2013, 03:15
RIP Madiba, your long walk to freedom is now complete.

I was living in SA in the early 90s, a period of immense tension, uncertainty, friendship and hardship and I cherish those years for those very reasons, it was a time when the hope of the Rainbow Nation was sat squarely on the shoulders of one man, Nelson Mandela or as he was and always will be known in SA, Madiba - meaning of the Xhosa clan but it takes on a more spiritual meaning - almost fatherly when it's applied to Mr Mandela. I never had the honour of meeting him but I feel honoured to have been a witness to those life and world changing events. It's sad that his ideals, vision and principles have not perpetuated in SA.

His inauguration ceremony in Pretoria will occupy a special place in my heart until I shuffle off this mortal coil. One of Africa's foundation stones has left us and rest in peace barely scratches the surface, we've all been expecting it but nonetheless today is a sad day.

Krystal n chips
6th Dec 2013, 04:15
The words of another iconic leader who faced oppression come so readily to mind with the passing of this world statesman........"Free at last "

The terrorist label was always going to be a favourite of his detractors, many of whom, as others have said, conveniently choose to ignore other leaders and nations whose origins came about as a result of oppressive regimes.

haughtney1
6th Dec 2013, 04:30
Lets hope the man has a good send off, it all goes well and no one gets killed.

SA will now accelerate its continued to descent into tribal inspired violence, chaos and corruption, its not quite Mugabe's Zim yet, but its getting there.

cavortingcheetah
6th Dec 2013, 06:00
I flew in to the UK last night from JNB, from the self flagellation which is now about to encompass those of the world who have no more knowledge of South Africa than they would have had of the USA back in 1963.
Before everything gets called Mandela this or Nelson that, it's worth remembering that the man was a bomber whose mission was the destruction of the innocents for political advancement. The charges at Rivonia were ill framed or he'd have swung.
As figure head role in the transitional government and as the first black president of South Africa he was instrumental in preserving the peace, not so much as for what he did but rather for what did not happen in his time. He opened the doors of South Africa to millions of impecunious immigrants and initiated and maintained an immigration policy which would have made that of Tony Blair look rigidly restrictive. South African cities are full of the debris and detritus of Africa. Crime is rampant and murder and mutilation commonplace.
His legacy is a dictatorship where the courts and the press are under constant threat from a government mired in absolute graft, nepotism and the pursuit of individual gain. Mandela left no economic advantage for the majority of his people and stood idly by after his terms in office while his fellow ANC cadre leaders despoiled the economy of the beloved country..
Nelson Mandela's love of his country and his desire for peaceful transition are without question and under his watch no bloodshed, well hardly, marred the change of government from white to black autocracy. His legacy is imperfect. He did nothing in power to rival the idiocy of the disastrous policies created by that other hero worshipped state leader whose fiftieth anniversary has just passed by. For Mandela was an honourable man albeit a leader whose reign was rather more characterised by what didn't happen than the creations of his own hands. A man whose qualities as a human being were inarguably magnificent. A husband and a father whose family defy contempt for their venality and criminality and over whose corpse the hyenas will now come up from the culverts to feed.

sitigeltfel
6th Dec 2013, 06:34
Guido has made his point by turning his whole site over to one memorable picture........

http://orderorder.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/mandela.jpg

That may ruffle few feathers :E

Adam Nams
6th Dec 2013, 06:42
The UK press are going all out to get the best quotes.
Sky News Alex Crawford to non-English speaking mourner:
"Go on, give us a song"
Quality

pvmw
6th Dec 2013, 07:39
A weak man, used as an icon by the left - and quite unable to live up to it.

My opinion of Mandela is established by one clear, indisputable fact. He was the only person in the world who could have, with just a few well chosen words, put out a clear message about the reign of the murderous thug Mugabe - and just possibly halted the mass killings and destruction of Zimbabwe.

To me, his silence spoke volumes. A weak and corrupted individual, much more concerned with enjoying the accolades of his fawning and adoring public than actually doing something that required a bit of backbone and courage. Thousands of victims of Mugabe have every right to curse Mandela.

unstable load
6th Dec 2013, 07:56
Saint or sinner, he played a big part in South Africa's history and now he's gone. Whatever you think of him, he is at peace now and will answer for his actions to a higher court.

I think he has been "dead" for a while and on life support to allow the cANCer a bit more time to orchestrate this circus.
Apparently there were photographers gathering at the house in the morning, I wonder if anyone blabbed and set the ball rolling........

Just my personal conspiracy theory.

rgbrock1
6th Dec 2013, 12:13
racedo wrote:

George Washington

George Washington a terrorist? WTF? :eek::eek::eek:

ex_matelot
6th Dec 2013, 14:15
Why doesn't there seem to be the same sense of overwhelming outrage over North Korea or, as someone mentioned above, Zimbabwe, among the population these days? Is it simply because Mandela was an anchor figure, and there's no similar point of reference elsewhere?

Mandela was seized upon by the left-wing and made an undeserved icon during a period of the West's self-flagellation over it's colonial past. My Facebook feed this morning has been full of empty plattitudes and declarations of regret at his passing - and not one of them actually knows anything about the history of the ANC or SA. It's a fashion statement. This is the BBC's second Princess Diana moment. The moral relativism and hagiography is quite sickening.

People are assuming it is right and correct to be seen as a Mandela supporter, and appear to be using his death as a platform to self-advertise their own moral compass direction to bumpf up their self-righteousness.

Had Mandela been white he would have been unheard of for anything more than being a terrorist. The powers that be were sensitive to the horror that was apartheid though and were thus unable to speak what they really thought.

I think the irony is lost on many who wish to be seen to slate Tony of Blair yet show faux-grief over Mandelas passing.

I reckon he's been dead for a couple of months now...the film premiere was the keystone in the announcement.

airship
6th Dec 2013, 14:26
At this point, it may be worthwhile drawing comparisons with Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela.

Mahatma Gandhi (born 1869) completed his studies in UK, returning to India afterwards, before going to South Africa in 1893 where he practised law as a barrister nfor about 20 years, before returning to India in 1914. We all know what Mahatma Gandhi accomplished back in India subsequently...

Nelson Mandela was born in 1918, several years after Mahatma Gandhi had previously left South Africa. Imprisoned after being convicted as a terrorist for several decades, he won the World's admiration for negotiating the "peaceful-settlement" and the end of apartheid in South Africa, becoming PM eventually.

Ordinary mortals like us may never know just what all these "peaceful-negotiations" consisted of, in the face of extreme hard-liners who supported apartheid and ruled the country back then. But I reckon and summarise as follows:

Even (or especially) when the whites were faced with the prospect of imminent and violent annihilation by blacks (akin to what happened in Rwanda more recently except that was "black on black"), the whites insisted on the following terms (in return for a "free" South Africa):

1) Our present ownership of property and rights etc. (95% of the country) will be guaranteed 100% (and no funny business like what happened in Rhodesia / Zimbabwe).

2) You submit a list of "blacks" whom you wish to succeed rapidly in the "new" South Africa, and we'll do our best to open-up the capital of our major companies and transfer a percentage of these assets as best and quickly as we can.

3) You grant a complete and 100% amnesty against all and any South Africans who might conceivably have committed any crimes (under the old S. African and apartheid government).

I reckon that Nelson Mandela basically agreed to all these demands, perhaps in spite of his better judgement, at the time.

Which is why ca. 2013, most black South Africans are still very poor, and live where they used to live, way back then...? Some blacks have indeed become spectacularly rich. They live together with the traditionally rich whites, barricaded behind razor-wire fencing, complete with golf-courses, private security etc. Today, there are even poor white folk....?!

I think, all things considered, Nelson Mandela made the right decision. Preserving most South Africans from the bloodshed and massacres which many other parts of Africa have suffered from since then.

But "the yoke" is still there, compared to India, where the yoke was trully and really "thrown off" for good, many decades ago. :mad::ok::confused::uhoh:

ex_matelot
6th Dec 2013, 15:50
A well choreographed death.

The BBC can tear themselves apart the next few weeks making conspicuous efforts to refer to him as 'Mandiba', in a superficial attempt at showing their 'allignment'.

I can't wait to see how they will react when Mandela's family publically tear each other apart for a slice of the cake / royalties.

I'm sorry but he failed to be an icon when he allowed himself to become a brand. Undeserved of either IMO.

I wonder whether the BBC will crash out the purple ties and vaseline when Gerry Adams koofers it?

If anything - this allows us a chance to see just how superficial our authorities and dignitaries actually are - as they all scramble to register their faux-remorse. I'm disappointed at Prince William also, his press office allowing him to be described as 'ashen-faced' when "confronted" with the news.

sitigeltfel
6th Dec 2013, 16:01
I wonder whether the BBC will crash out the purple ties and vaseline when Gerry Adams koofers it?

Keeping good company?

http://i40.tinypic.com/2r1zcde.jpg

LGS6753
6th Dec 2013, 16:37
Nine years ago the world lost a real statesman. A man whose vision and determination brought the world back from the brink of MADness (Mutually-Assured Destruction). A man who stood firm for his beliefs, and in doing so liberated half of Europe from tyranny, and the other half from fear.
This man was never a terrorist. He was reviled by the left, the BBC and sundry others whose contribution to our world was nil. His passing did not result in today's conscience-waving or conspicuous "grief", yet most of us have more to thank him for than any other international politician of our times.

His name was Ronald Reagan. RIP.

G-CPTN
6th Dec 2013, 16:38
BBC News - Nelson Mandela death: Somerset's part in South African history (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-22990166)

racedo
6th Dec 2013, 17:11
George Washington a terrorist? WTF? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Under todays definition he would be considered as such.

Issue is people seek to label everything as a catch all, forgetting that by todays definitions people in history would be viewed differently.

It doesn't detract from what GW did but puts in context that people fighting for freedom do things that judged 200 years later are looked at differently.

If people fighting for freedom are always called terrorists then so be it but what do you call those who make up laws to oppress others using military force to do so ?

Capetonian
6th Dec 2013, 17:41
I rarely, if ever, see eye to eye with Airship. For the posting above, I have to say (as he would say in France) 'chapeau' for that excellent and sadly true summary of how things have developed since 1994. Most black South Africans, and many white ones too, are worse off now than before, with no functioning infrastructure in many areas, whereas before there was one, albeit inferior. A sad outcome to the hope and promise that Mandela gave, to have been hijacked by a bunch of self-serving thieving thugs.

AtomKraft
6th Dec 2013, 17:43
Has anything else happened today?

Normally, I look at the news.......:rolleyes:

SpringHeeledJack
6th Dec 2013, 17:49
As has been mentioned the nice old man that we have seen the last 20 years has become almost a brand, the shop front for the world, whilst the brothers pulling the strings of power behind the facade have seemingly worsened the country's standing internationally and decimated the once lush capitalistic structure with breath-takingly brazen cronyism for those of their tribe. Whether Mandela could realistically have said "not in my name!" to Zuma et al in the last years is up for debate, so it is hard to judge him. I don't feel sad that he has died, after all 95 years old is a good innings for anyone. Each to their own I suppose. The monstrously overdone platitudes by the BBC has been a sight to behold. That they have had a range of ready made segments to air is understandable, they are in the news business after all and this is one of those themes that keeps giving, but to as good as ignore most of the pressing issues in the UK presently on national news.....well something is wrong with that. I realise that to many he was an icon, but the African forum within pprune has no mention of anything at all, perhaps that is more telling than anything.



SHJ

ex_matelot
6th Dec 2013, 18:09
Agree with the comment re: Ronald Reagan entirely.

This Mandela issue is just a self-aggrandising roller-coaster of faux-grief, grief exhibited because it's fashionable and seen as the "right thing to do".

I only know 3 saffers in real life. None have anything good to say about 'Mandiba'.

I am ******* sickend that my my BBC licence fee is funding news presenters to appear to be fighting back tears as they update us on news of his death.

If I actually thought any of Mandela's family were just, and reasonable people then I'd assume they'd be outraged at such condescending and patronising behavior.

We have at least a month of this yet and our governments will be rubbing hands with glee at the opportunity to 'bury bad news'.
I want to know why the BBC news 24 presenter this morning appeared to be having a 'moment of reflection' as the cameras panned to him to tell us more of the same. I refuse to believe Mandela has influence the life of a champagne socialist on 300k per annum one iota.

VP959
6th Dec 2013, 18:43
Nelson Mandela showed that the power of forgiveness was greater than the power of revenge.

Well said, racedo.

Mandela was far from perfect, was undoubtedly used by those with specific agendas, and in many ways failed to bring about the united SA and peace that I think he wanted to see.

In my view what he, and Desmond Tutu, gave the whole world was the concept that forgiveness, compassion and reconciliation could be a powerful force in healing rifts within a very fractured society.

His main weakness was in failing to apply those same principals to the underlying tribal tensions in SA, if anything, his unyielding loyalty to the ANC, even when this was counter to his vision of a peaceful, harmonious and prosperous SA, was his major failing.

When all is said and done, though, I think he, and Tutu, will be remembered most for the innovation of the Truth and Reconciliation process. I well recall being amazed at the compassion and deep desire for honest and open forgiveness, that could drive such a process, even if it wasn't perfect.

Will Hung
6th Dec 2013, 19:01
BBC just mentioned that Mr Mandela has been described as "the greatest leader of all time"

Move over Mr Churchill !

ex_matelot
6th Dec 2013, 19:56
The BBC will have described him as the messiah by tomorrow. Their hyperbole and superlatives are depleting rapidly.

I wouldn'y really mind if the sentiment was genuine. It's not though - the whole organisation is shit-scared of straying from a stated ideology.

G-CPTN
6th Dec 2013, 20:13
Yet another wall-to-wall programme about NM on BBC R5! :ugh:

It seems they are replaying absolutely every soundbite that the BBC has with the faintest association with the Great Man.

BBC Radio 5 live - Schedules, Friday 6 December 2013 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/5live/programmes/schedules#on-now)

ex_matelot
6th Dec 2013, 20:18
It's been planned for ages...just like the queen mother's death. I see Saint Bono of U2 has already had his pre-recorded eulogy aired several times.

Some people just need kicking to death...slowly.

con-pilot
6th Dec 2013, 21:45
So was
Oliver Cromwell
George Washington
Willy Brandt
Most of Israel Govts for first 40 years

Despite your convoluted sense of history, General George Washinton, a former commisioned officer of the British Army, was not a terrorist.

If you are British, he could have considered a traitor, but never a terrorist. He was a commisoned office in an organized, uniformed army of a new goverment seaking independence from an oppresive ruler/government of another country.

As he broke his oath to the King as a serving officer in His Majesty's Army, he was legally a traitor to the King.

But in none of his actions against England during the Revlountary War (the American Civil War if you are British) did his actions qualify as being terrorist in nature.

He lead his forces in open battle against British forces. Not attacking indiscriminately, by targeting non-combants including women and children.


Most of Israel Govts for first 40 years

Yes, we know how anti-semitic* you are, no reason to keep bringing it up.

* Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage.

parabellum
7th Dec 2013, 01:23
I hope the BBC and other make just as much fuss about Lee Kuan Yew when he passes on.


Now there is a real statesman.

Pinky the pilot
7th Dec 2013, 06:15
An article in todays South Australian Advertiser newspaper states that
'....in the last years of his life, Nelson Mandela's family has been at war, bickering between themselves over his many millions.'

As my dear, late Father stated to me on many occasions, "Where there's a will, there's a relative!":ugh: (Dad was a senior Law Clerk)

The article further mentions that, '........It is understood Mandela built up a fortune of more than $18 million.'

How did he manage that?

Wingswinger
7th Dec 2013, 06:36
Only $18m? Surely that makes him a bit of a lightweight among African heads of state?

ORAC
7th Dec 2013, 08:06
Just as a counter to the hagiography. John Pilger, as a committed socialist, was not impressed....

Mandela’s Tarnished Legacy (http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/11/mandelas-tarnished-legacy/)

PTT
7th Dec 2013, 08:12
He was a commisoned office in an organized, uniformed army of a new goverment seaking independence from an oppresive ruler/government of another country.A bit like a lot of the palestinians, then? ;)

Capetonian
7th Dec 2013, 08:24
Mandela's greatest feat was saving South Africa from a bloodbath, current President Zuma has plunged it into violence, corruption and poverty. By John Humprhrys and Stephen Robinson | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/debatesearch/article-2519706/Mandelas-greatest-feat-saving-South-Africa-bloodbath-current-President-Zuma-plunged-violence-corruption-poverty-By-John-Humprhrys-Stephen-Robinson.html)

This article is pertinent not only for what it says about Mandela, but more so for its comments about the current regime under Zuma and its corruption and nepotism.

G-CPTN
7th Dec 2013, 08:38
Nelson Mandela dead: Conservative ''hypocrites'' heap praise on man they branded a terrorist - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nelson-mandela-dead-conservative-hypocrites-2899975)

Capetonian
7th Dec 2013, 08:47
I was quite shocked, although I probably shouldn't have been, to overhear a conversation yesterday evening between 4 girls perhaps in their twenties on a train down from the NW to London : "I've never heard of this Mandela, who was he and why was he so important....?" and then .... "who cares ...?" and so on. I was tempted to attempt to inform them but I thought somehow it was pointless and would probably only have resulted in them sneering and making childish remarks.

I just wonder how anyone can have not heard of him. Perhaps they were just looking for a reaction, which is partly why I decided not to react.

I am heading up to London shortly to sign the book at SA house, not something that I would have imagined myself doing 20 years ago.

Stan Woolley
7th Dec 2013, 08:54
I am heading up to London shortly to sign the book at SA house, not something that I would have imagined myself doing 20 years ago.

Good on you !

moosp
7th Dec 2013, 09:18
Went to the Victor Verster prison yesterday, just down the road, to give respects to a flawed but immensely capable man. There is a statue of him outside where he spent the last three years in prison.

Lots of locals of all shades and hues there, could not have imagined such a rainbow 18 years ago.

AtomKraft
7th Dec 2013, 09:41
Just heard the BBC ask ex President Carter if he agreed with others that Mandela should be compared with Jesus.

Carter declined to do so, thank Goodness.

I suppose that must be the ultimate example of drooling slobbering overstatement available?

I mean, comparing a man with God?

I despair of the BBC sometimes. Their arse licking PC itis has no limit.

ex_matelot
7th Dec 2013, 10:46
Just heard the BBC ask ex President Carter if he agreed with others that Mandela should be compared with Jesus.

Carter declined to do so, thank Goodness.

I suppose that must be the ultimate example of drooling slobbering overstatement available?

I mean, comparing a man with God?

I despair of the BBC sometimes. Their arse licking PC itis has no limit.

In islam, Jesus was a prophet of Mohammed. I wonder whether any outrage will be generated by this BBC suggestion?

ArthurR
7th Dec 2013, 11:27
In islam, Jesus was a prophet of Mohammed.

Mohammed was born over 500 years after Jesus

Krystal n chips
7th Dec 2013, 11:30
And.......relax.

To save their persusalship the intense trauma of being confronted with headlines that would have continued to tax their long dormant brain cell (s) ( the plural is just to be charitable in some cases ) the Excess continues with it's now established " Mother Shiptons Weather prophecy for today" theme and, getting the perusalship back onto familiar territory once more, the Mirror and the Sun, both have headlines about.....Ingurlunds World Cup draw in Brazil......phew !

Meanwhile, in her own inimitable style, here's a nice little article from one Ms Marina Hyde......:ok:

Follow Mandela's example, and roar with laughter at all this rightwing fawning | Marina Hyde | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/06/follow-nelson-mandela-laugh-rightwing-fawning)

ex_matelot
7th Dec 2013, 11:42
Really? I thought that 'they' considered Jesus to be a prophet of Allah.

Regardless - the link with the religion of peace is still there.

Somebody ought to get outraged about it - or at least inform others that outrage can be righteously displayed!

Bushfiva
7th Dec 2013, 11:58
"Regardless"...


Yes, I can imagine detail isn't too important to someone not quite finished kicking the corpse of Mandela 8.01.

2 sheds
7th Dec 2013, 12:02
I thought at one point that Zuma's announcement was going to morph into the Python Dead Parrot Sketch!

2 s

ex_matelot
7th Dec 2013, 14:23
Yes, I can imagine detail isn't too important to someone not quite finished kicking the corpse of Mandela 8.01.

:D ten charachters.

Capetonian
7th Dec 2013, 18:36
I went up to London this morning and to sign the book at SA house. It was all very orderly and only a short queue, maybe 20 minutes. I took a few pictures which aren't great and don't really capture the atmosphere, but I thought I'd share them here with those not able to go.
One of them is at the statue on the South Bank and there are also some at the statue in Parliament Square. An interesting and little known fact about that is that he is not on a high plinth, at his own request when the statue was made, as he wanted people to be able to stand and look him in the face and have their photos taken with him.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%285%29.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%282%29.JPGhttps://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%284%29.JPGhttps://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%286%29.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%2813%29.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%2814%29.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%2815%29.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%2816%29.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/LON07DEC13%20%2817%29.JPG

cavortingcheetah
7th Dec 2013, 19:45
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/z/za-1928.gif

No doubt there are many who took the oath of allegiance to this flag who would also salute the passing of Mandela. Meanwhile the world awaits the memorial words of FW de Klerk, the unsung hero of Mandela's greatness.

Sailor Vee
7th Dec 2013, 21:15
If nothing else, it's keeping the candle makers and florists very happy!

G-CPTN
7th Dec 2013, 21:28
The Beeb have sent 'correspondents' (and technical support teams I presume) from England to Soweto.

4mastacker
7th Dec 2013, 21:32
The Beeb have sent 'correspondents' (and technical support teams I presume) from England to Soweto.

After all, it's only licence payers money they're playing with.

racedo
7th Dec 2013, 21:34
Despite your convoluted sense of history, General George Washinton, a former commisioned officer of the British Army, was not a terrorist.

If you are British, he could have considered a traitor, but never a terrorist. He was a commisoned office in an organized, uniformed army of a new goverment seaking independence from an oppresive ruler/government of another country.

As he broke his oath to the King as a serving officer in His Majesty's Army, he was legally a traitor to the King.

But in none of his actions against England during the Revlountary War (the American Civil War if you are British) did his actions qualify as being terrorist in nature.

He lead his forces in open battle against British forces. Not attacking indiscriminately, by targeting non-combants including women and children.



Today he would be known as a terrorist................ deserter and terrorist.
Not condemming him in the slightest but as I pointed out earlier the definition of what was a Freedom fighter / Traitor / Terrorist changes by the decades depending on whose definition it is.

George Washington could attack in the field because there was equality of armaments..................now he could not do so.


Yes, we know how anti-semitic* you are, no reason to keep bringing it up.

* Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage.

WRONG

I am highlighting that those who were once called terrorists because they blew people up seeking their countries Freedom get feted very quickly when it suits someones agenda.

US called Mandela a Terrorist until he was freed and even now many have mealy mouthed words to say on him.

Menachen Begin never apologised for what he did seeking his countrys freedom nor did the others involved and I saw nothing they did that required them to apologise for what they sought. Begin was welcome in the west and talking to Sadat brought a peace many felt would never happen................no more nor no less courageous that what Mandela did.

In the same way I could have just as easily included Irish Govt rather than Israeli's as would that make me anti Irish because for first 40 years as a state most of their leaders had rebelled against British rule and same definitions apply or would you consider Irish people traitors ?

parabellum
7th Dec 2013, 21:46
"It is understood Mandela built up a fortune of more than $18 million.'

How did he manage that?"


Well, there would be 27 years back pay for a start!

racedo
7th Dec 2013, 21:52
A question I always puzzle with regarding Saffers over a certain age.............
None seem to have supported Apartheid and all will tell you same.

Have I just been unlucky in only meeting those opposed to it or has there been a collective wiping of memories of the past.

G-CPTN
7th Dec 2013, 22:08
"It is understood Mandela built up a fortune of more than $18 million.'
How did he manage that?" What is more puzzling is that:-
A few years after he was freed from prison, he built Mrs Mtirara a seven-bedroom Tuscan-style house (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12239624).

cavortingcheetah
7th Dec 2013, 22:41
Nelson Mandela accumulated a fortune in excess of $18 million.
Jacob Zuma built a house that cost more than $20 million.
Julius Malema owes the SA revenue in excess of $2 million.
Tokyo Sexwale declines to comment on whereabouts of $25 million.
Cyril Ramaphosa is #29 in Africa's 50 richest men.
And all of this since 1994? These poor men of humble origins and trade union connections. Cry indeed the beloved country.
What's there not to like about apartheid, alive and flourishing in government contracts, job opportunities, medical positions and political cronyism?
The nostalgic music of Procul Harum, these far off things, reminds one of the way we were in the good old days when there were still enough elephant to be shot for sport and men wore jackets in the bar after 18.00 - unless of course one were in the Mens Bar, in which case it didn't matter much.
A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum - YouTube

flash8
8th Dec 2013, 01:16
It's extremely annoying as one has to filter all this Mandela stuff out (bless his heart) when reading the news on my mobile. Yes, the dude has departed, he was cool, but he ain't here no more..

Reminds me when Diana died they had the funeral the week mate was off work... he was well pissed as by that stage the British euphoric public crescendo of mourning drowned out his chance of a quiet week... thankfully was in Canada at the time.

bosnich71
8th Dec 2013, 03:09
Racedo .... "None seemed to have supported Apartheid and all will tell you the same" ....
Funnily enough I had lots of conversations with Germans in the the 1960's and had much the same problem. All those who had served in the Wermacht had done so in Russia. I began to think that my dear old Dad had been telling porkies about Nth.Africa and Italy.

cavortingcheetah
8th Dec 2013, 07:09
You'd be amazed at how many South Africans of all colours would appreciate a return to a form of pass law and an end to the constant and often criminal invasion of the country by human debris moving ever southwards from the rest of the continent. That problem is exacerbated because, at the other end of the economic scale, there is a white migration into South Africa from Russia and its previous satellites. Thus the local South African, of whatever colour, can find himself squeezed between immigrant elements whose only commonality might be criminal. All of this originated on Mandela's watch.
Apartheid was not a philosophy of the socialists, as was Nazism, but it had a commonality with its historical predecessor in that each was designed for a political and financial end in its own time or era. Each might have succeeded in history had it continued unabated, although the Afrikaner philosophy was hardly an expansionist one. It is astonishing these days how few people one meets who boast of their liberal role in the downfall of Apartheid. As the corruption, murder and mutilation grows in South Africa, so those whose activities brought about the creation of the dust bowl that is Zimbabwe and the criminal paradise that is South Africa were never there and ever had naught to do with it.

Capetonian
8th Dec 2013, 11:00
If you are white and grew up, as I did, in apartheid South Africa, you are automatically assumed by others to be a 'racist' unless you state that you actively fought against apartheid. Many who claim to have done so are liars.

We accepted the system, most of us, without actively supporting it. Those of us who voted (I didn't, I never vote for anything political) voted for the Nats as it was effectively a one party state, as it is now. Apartheid worked, unfair as it was, and there was a stability and an order that has now been utterly destroyed, as CC says, and replaced by something far worse.

Few people will admit that they 'supported' apartheid, it was simply there as a part of our lives. We knew it was unfair, we appreciated the fact that it worked. I know plenty of black people on both sides of the Limpopo who would be happy to see a return to the old order, perhaps in somewhat different form.

flash8
8th Dec 2013, 12:10
Apartheid worked, unfair as it was, and there was a stability and an order that has now been utterly destroyed, as CC says, and replaced by something far worse.

Heard that view many times by White SA's that had left and have worked with, most of them completely without a shred of racism (other than the odd hardcore Afrikaans) , unfortunately from what I have seen, heard and read this seems to be the unpalatable truth.

SpringHeeledJack
8th Dec 2013, 12:38
The Apartheid system did work, in that it kept everyone in their place, some for the better, many for the worse. The Ex-Yugoslavia worked, the ex-Iraqi regime worked, etc, etc, all keeping the disparate groups under control and then they weren't and the results are there for all to see today. The problem is that when equality is there for all (as it should) we find that disagreements and disharmony are soon to follow, which in turn leads to self interest and oppression/armed conflict....:(



SHJ

PTT
8th Dec 2013, 12:46
Apartheid workedFor varying values of "worked".

Krystal n chips
8th Dec 2013, 12:53
" If you are white and grew up, as I did, in apartheid South Africa, you are automatically assumed by others to be a 'racist' unless you state that you actively fought against apartheid. Many who claim to have done so are liars.

We accepted the system, most of us, without actively supporting it. Those of us who voted (I didn't, I never vote for anything political) voted for the Nats as it was effectively a one party state, as it is now. Apartheid worked, unfair as it was, and there was a stability and an order that has now been utterly destroyed, as CC says, and replaced by something far worse.

Few people will admit that they 'supported' apartheid, it was simply there as a part of our lives. We knew it was unfair, we appreciated the fact that it worked


So apartheid worked did it ?...did it really ?!!.....well, that's news then and how remiss of the more civilised sections of humanity to fail to understand this, and even to protest, world wide, about how segregation was, it seems, now entirely misunderstood !.

Thank you for the clarification therefore.

I have never been to S.A, and frankly I never want to go, there are plenty of more hospitable places in the world, however, I have a cousin who emigrated there and, as a coppersmith, his skills were in demand....he's been back in the U.K for a long time now.

I also had an Uncle, as I have mentioned before, who was the number two wildlife vet on Operation Noah, well known and respected across the regions ( he gets a mention on the book "Okavango".....Lloyd Watkins ) and he eventually left the region, declining to move to S.A for the same reason my cousin left......the white population and apartheid.

I wonder why anybody would even dream of using the term racist to connect the two.

VP959
8th Dec 2013, 14:36
I'm no supporter of racism in any form, and grew during a time when parts of the US were being torn apart by racism and segregation, let alone SA.

Apartheid "worked" in as much as it maintained a society that was more stable and had less crime than we see now in SA. It didn't "work" in the sense of providing any semblance of equality or fairness.

No society is perfect, or ever will be, so each has to seek out a balance between fairness, equality, crime levels, prosperity etc, etc.

Right now we have majority rule in SA, but that has been at the expense of prosperity and crime levels, and to some extent equality. There is still discrimination in the country, but instead of the previous portrayal of discrimination as only being between white and coloured people, it's now, as it always has been under the surface, between tribes, whites, and immigrants, in varying degrees.

Has the removal of apartheid made SA a country with lower crime rates, better standards of living and greater levels of stability within it's society? No, I don't think it has, and that is the reason some will say that apartheid "worked" and that the post-apartheid regime has successively failed to "work".

Had Mandela been younger when released, and had he had more energy, and been more willing to apply, in practice, his oft stated vision of equality and harmony for all, rather than be manipulated by the ANC agenda, then perhaps post-apartheid SA could be said to be a society that is better in all ways than it was.

Unfortunately, if you look at some key indices of the success of any society, like crime rates or the balance of prosperity across the population, then SA post-apartheid may well be far worse than it was before.

PTT
8th Dec 2013, 14:51
Apartheid "worked" in as much as it maintained a society that was more stable and had less crime than we see now in SA. It didn't "work" in the sense of providing any semblance of equality or fairness.So a bit like Nazi Germany, right? ;)

VP959
8th Dec 2013, 15:20
Depends on which selective benchmark you choose to use as an indicator of a "working" society. Choose something like crime rate and some of the most oppressive regimes on the planet score well for having low crime rates.

The problem is that everyone will have a different view as to what makes a "good" society. Personally I rate fairness, lack of discrimination (on the basis of race, colour, sexual preference, gender or whatever), and low crime rates at the top of my list.

flash8
8th Dec 2013, 15:47
So a bit like Nazi Germany, right?

Bit like Iraq? However I suspect many would like a return to the regime days, when even though nasty were not as we see now with 50+ deaths through bombings, day in day out it scarcely makes the headlines and when it does one is confused with the previous bombing from yesterday...

rate fairness, lack of discrimination (on the basis of race, colour, sexual preference, gender or whatever), and low crime rates at the top of my list.

Certainly not Iraq...

Saddam was a baddy yes, but has the price we paid too much?

One could possibly argue the same about SA (although I'm not condoning Racism), not that I do, but I see that viewpoint.

unstable load
8th Dec 2013, 16:48
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/z/za-1928.gif

No doubt there are many who took the oath of allegiance to this flag who would also salute the passing of Mandela. Meanwhile the world awaits the memorial words of FW de Klerk, the unsung hero of Mandela's greatness.
Indeed, we do wait to see what they will say about FW's passing.

TWT
8th Dec 2013, 18:28
AFP.com (http://www.afp.com/en/news/topstories/south-africa-unites-prayer-and-song-mandela)

I see 'celebrity mourners' Oprah,Bono,Richard Branson and Peter Gabriel will attend.
Nothing like some free publicity eh ?

A3301FD
9th Dec 2013, 07:55
"The hero of the anti-apartheid struggle was not the saint we want him to be.

The image of Nelson Mandela as a selfless, humble, freedom fighter turned cheerful, kindly old man, is well established in the West. If there is any international leader on whom we can universally heap praise it is surely he. But get past the halo we’ve placed on him without his permission, and Nelson Mandela had more than a few flaws which deserve attention.

He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty International refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”

As President he bought a lot of military hardware:

Inheriting a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, one might expect resources to be poured into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Yet once in office, even Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people. Deputy Minister of Defence Ronnie Kasrils said in 1995 that the government’s planned cuts in defence spending could also result in the loss of as many as 90,000 jobs in defence-related industries.

Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders…

Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) purchase of weaponry was finalised, which has been subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft.

Below are some of the purchases made, presumably to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…

Description:

Corvettes 4 R4 billion

Maritime helicopter for corvettes 5 R1 billion

New submarines to replace Daphne 4 R5,5 billion

Alouette helicopter replacement 60 R2 billion

Advanced light fighter 48 R6-9 billion

Main Battle Tank replacement of Olifant 154 R6 billion

Total cost in 1998 Rand R25-38 billion


Mandela was friendly with dictators:

Despite being synonymous with freedom and democracy, Mandela was never afraid to glad hand the thugs and tyrants of the international arena.

General Sani Abacha seized power in Nigeria in a military coup in November 1993. From the start of his presidency, in May 1994, Nelson Mandela refrained from publicly condemning Abacha’s actions. Up until the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in November 1995 the ANC government vigorously opposed the imposition of sanctions against Nigeria. Shortly before the meeting Mandela’s spokesman, Parks Mankahlana, said that “quiet persuasion” would yield better results than coercion. Even after the Nigerian government announced the death sentences against Saro-Wiwa and eight other Ogoni activists, during the summit, Mandela refused to condemn the Abacha regime or countenance the imposition of sanctions.

Two of the ANC’s biggest donors, in the 1990s, were Colonel Muammar Gaddafi of Libya and President Suharto of Indonesia . Not only did Mandela refrain from criticising their lamentable human rights records but he interceded diplomatically on their behalf, and awarded them South Africa ‘s highest honour. Suharto was awarded a state visit, a 21-gun salute, and The Order of Good Hope (gold class).

In April 1999 Mandela acknowledged to an audience in Johannesburg that Suharto had given the ANC a total of 60 million dollars. An initial donation of 50 million dollars had been followed up by a further 10 million. The Telegraph ( London ) reported that Gaddafi was known to have given the ANC well over ten million dollars.

The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal."


Robert Mugabe...terrorist now President.

Mandela never ever denounced Mugabe's murder of over 60,000 Matabele people in 1985. Wait...neither did the UN.

Gerry Adams...maybe he should run for PM of the UK.

Osama...maybe he should run for the Presidency of the USA...wait, shot that c**t.

There are many other examples.

The parallels are the same.

Terrorism is Terrorism. There is no justification of the murder of civilians in any form or fashion, for whatever goal.

Mandela was offered the chance of freedom if he denounced/renounced terrorism. He refused. He could have left prison, and continued his path via political means.

cavortingcheetah
9th Dec 2013, 10:09
A magnificent post!

sitigeltfel
9th Dec 2013, 10:45
Beware what you say. The fascist left are out there, watching and listening....

Neil Phillips quizzed for 8 HOURS by police after Nelson Mandela Twitter jokes | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520662/Neil-Phillips-quizzed-8-HOURS-police-Nelson-Mandela-Twitter-jokes.html?login#readerCommentsCommand-message-field)

Liberal Democrat Councillor Tim Jones was so incensed by the one-liners, aired at a time when Mandela was critically ill, that he made an official complaint. :rolleyes:

How many were arrested for the vitriol that was thrown around when Lady Thatcher died?

cavortingcheetah
9th Dec 2013, 12:42
A Glaswegian communist by birth with a father who served in the British navy during the war I can and will say what I like on the streets and in the alleys of this proxy little police state known as Britain. As for saying what I would like to say on Pprune? That is an entirely different thing for one is dutifully terrified of the power that resides in the Dark Tower.

airship
9th Dec 2013, 15:23
sitigeltfel, I couldn't see any PPRuNe involvement concerning your Daily Mail link (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewrep ly%26noquote%3D1%26p%3D8196613&v=1&libId=b17c89e3-7a48-4833-bc74-3dc5d45f081e&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-2520662%2FNeil-Phillips-quizzed-8-HOURS-police-Nelson-Mandela-Twitter-jokes.html%3Flogin%23readerCommentsCommand-message-field&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fjet-blast%2F529260-vale-nelson-mandela-6.html&title=PPRuNe%20Forums%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=Neil%20Phillips%20quizzed%20for%208%20HOURS%20by%20polic e%20after%20Nelson%20Mandela%20Twitter%20jokes%20%7C%20Mail% 20Online&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13866060931716) above.

Are you sure you weren't hallucinating on wild mushrooms you recently collected yourself in the French forests and have been consuming since?

Or do you have another agenda? :confused:

SpringHeeledJack
9th Dec 2013, 16:04
When one types certain words into posts on pprune, they are replaced by others. Notable examples are f a c ebook becomes pprune and l a n drover becomes trabant :8



SHJ

airship
9th Dec 2013, 16:32
Obviously imposed by the lawyers...?! :eek:

Lonewolf_50
9th Dec 2013, 17:39
A3301FD, I see no reason why, when president, Mr Mandela would deliberately allow his nation's armed forces to stagnate.

He got some upgrades.

How is that a bad thing? :confused:

ArthurR
9th Dec 2013, 17:42
More on Mandela:
Nelson Mandela Joins Yasser Arafat As Dead Terrorists Who Won Peace Prizes | Clash Daily (http://clashdaily.com/2013/12/nelson-mandela-joins-yasser-arafat-dead-terrorists-won-peace-prizes/)

I.R.PIRATE
10th Dec 2013, 00:21
The Jesus moniker seems safe for now. The ANC is calling him Moses this evening.

A3301FD
10th Dec 2013, 01:19
Defense spending, I agree, not a bad thing at all. But considering the impoverished nature of his own people, perhaps it might have been spent on other programs.

Consider this; South Africa has no social welfare program. Good or bad? If one doesn't work there, there is no support from the state.

Consider the housing dilemma in SA. Many people are still living in tin shacks. What happened to the promise of improved housing? Most of the money disappeared into the pockets of newly appointed politicians, as it still does. Was that Mandelas' fault? Who can say.

At this moment in time, Angola and its expansionist communism is no longer a threat to SA. Neither are any other countries surrounding SA. Mugabe is too busy lining his own pockets in Zimbabwe, and over 80% of his soldiers are infected with AIDS.

So the point being, what interim security threat is SA facing right now that warrants the defense spending? Madagascar? I hear they have a lion, hippo, zebra and a giraffe that are considered fairly dangerous.

Was Mandela the right President to stop civil war? Yes.

Was he the right President to bring both people together? Yes.

Yet everyone forgets how it was FW who saw the need for change and made it happen.

Yasser Arafat never denounced/renounced terrorism. Gaddafi, Mugabe, Abbas...all terrorists.

Many people will quote "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". Wrong. Terrorism is still terrorism, state sponsored or otherwise.

cavortingcheetah
10th Dec 2013, 05:38
The arms equipment policy implemented by Comrade Mandela was actually quite clever.
A country buys highly sophisticated hardware thereby deluding its population into believing that its military personnel are capable of operating such kit.
Large scale bribery and corruption on all sides go hand in hand with the orders thus enriching the arms dealers, the politicians and others of pragmatic principle involved in dealing in death.
Trainers and technicians have to be dispatched to South Africa to try to train the locals how to maximise the capabilities of the death equipment. This enable the government to claim that its armed forces are under expert training at the same time as allowing more baksheesh to transfer around the table.
The equipment proves incapable of tolerating the harsh conditions of the seas and terrain surrounding the southern country. This enables the government to avoid the unpleasant fact that their servicemen broke the stuff.
As a gesture of goodwill, replacements are provided by the arms companies in order to justify receiving their little extraneous financial tid bits. This enables the government to show on paper that it is much more militarily powerful than it is, having nearly twice the equipment than it had before. The fact that half is broken and the other half is in the process of being destroyed is ignored. This also enables the arms companies to argue that they are not making such a gigantic profit and are in fact acting in a responsible and philanthropic manner.
Much of this foofy slide arms trading is accomplished with foreign humanitarian aid money provided by overseas suckers who pay taxes in their own country or put money into little cash boxes displayed in supermarket doorways to garner relief for starving women or to relieve female genital mutilation.
Not too many people get killed, arms companies produce and so their country's employment figures rise. Locals get rich and the liberal donors of conscience get stung. A sweet deal all round. What is needed though is a war to try the stuff out and have a little fun in rat alley.

An American hunting safari magazine recently conducted an experiment as to the weight/velocity of a hunting round relative to its trajectorial deflection passing through heavy bush on its way to the target. There's plenty of ideal terrain for this sort of experimentation on the Zimbo border and such displays might just put off the rhino poachers. The buzz, by the way, on the streets of China and Vietnam is that once the rhino has been exterminated, oriental horniness can continue unabated for the Ossicones, or horns, of the giraffe, when ground down, will provide a perfectly acceptable substitute for the rampant aphrodisiac enrichment capability lost by the demise of the rhinoceros.

Solid Rust Twotter
10th Dec 2013, 05:47
Re defense spending, billions changed hands and a load of ANC officials and politicians got very rich from it. Ongoing investigations into kickbacks have been hushed up and the new secrecy bill, ie, state censorship of any investigation into misbehaviour on the part of govt will put paid to any awkward questions. That said, the frigates are falling apart, submarines aground on a pile of rusty bean cans in dock and pretty much the entire Gripen fleet grounded and mothballed. The SANDF is in disarray, discipline is nonexistent, cronyism and nepotism have led to inadequate leadership and training, and racial exclusion has sidelined and discarded experienced people who can still contribute.

So what was it all about really?


Beaten to it...

cavortingcheetah
10th Dec 2013, 05:57
What was it all about:
Mandela's ANC theoretically being in a position to put down any democratic civil disobedience that arose as a result of public dissatisfaction with its rampant venality and corruption?
There's another business venture complexity that really got underway during Madiba's rule and runs at full tilt today, the sex slave flesh trade. It wouldn't be fair to speculate that there is a market for white, fair haired Russian girls in Johannesburg but it does that it could be so. Toys for the boys, one supposes.
South Africa (http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/countries/2013/215617.htm)

Capetonian
10th Dec 2013, 06:27
I'm not leaping to defend Mandela but let's look at a few points objectively.

South Africa was subject to sanctions under the apartheid regime. It was inevitable that once sanctions were lifted, the world's salesmen were going to be rushing in to sell shiny hardware to the now legitimate regime, which under years of Nationalist governance was pretty cash flush. One can question whether SA needs an Air Force, Navy, Army and so on but then the same question can be asked about many other countries. Australia? Brazil? Switzerland? But they all have them. Bribes and backhanders take place all over the world and are a way of life in Africa.

South Africa does have social welfare. There is an old age pension to which I believe all are entitled at the appropriate age, although it's not much, around ZAR1000/month, and there is an Unemployment Insurance Fund although I believe you can only benefit if you have previously paid in as an employee. This of course does not benefit the millions of young people who have never had a job and have no prospect of one thanks to the deceit and lies and ineptitude of the ANC and its failure to maintain a decent education system for the masses.

Mandela took over a functioning country with a good infrastructure. He was only president for 5 years and the decline worsened significantly after his watch, under Mbeki and particularly under the criminals that Zuma installed. Unlike most African leaders Mandela stepped down and allowed what was called a free and fair election, even if it wasn't, to take place. No worse than anywhere else.

As for the sex trade, like the arms trade, it was inevitable that after years of self-righteous suppression by the Nats and the NGK, that would flourish openly. The country was ripe for it. Nigerian and Chinese gangs and the others mentioned in the referenced article operate globally and their loathsome presence is everywhere. I have read that Dubai is the biggest sex trafficking hub of all and one of the biggest markets. Fingers should not be pointed solely at SA, and it is the oldest profession in the world and is present everywhere.

Mac the Knife
10th Dec 2013, 07:08
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlead/20130319.aspx

Saab Fails to Land Gripen Orders, Threatening Output (Update2) - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&tkr=BA:US&sid=a48CogGIxMy0)

Mac

:uhoh:

And a bit from the archives: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/39063-sa-fast-jet-drivers.html

(What we should have bought of course is Pucara/SuperTucano-class aircraft)

I don't know that we could even sell the Gripens for parts - scrap more likely.

Maybe the Israelis would be interested?

:cool:

ManUtd1999
10th Dec 2013, 07:21
I just cannot get my head round the beatification of this man. Predictably, we have the fawning, unbalanced and unrelenting coverage on the BBC. We have had the nauseating sight of all football matches in England today starting with the obligatory minute's applause. All of this for a terrorist who should have been hanged and never thought of again. It is appalling. I will not accept this "freedom fighter" vs terrorist argument. The man was a criminal, plain and simple.

So in your version of an ideal world apartheid would still exist? Or maybe we'd still be ruled by the King as Cromwell would have been a 'terrorist'? Or maybe Hitler would still be ruling the Western World as the bombing of German cities/ships would have been 'terrorism'?

Just a few quotes from Mandela for the whole "he was a terrorist pure and simple" brigade.

"If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner."

“No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.”

"Great anger and violence can never build a nation. We are striving to proceed in a manner and towards a result, which will ensure that all our people, both black and white, emerge as victors.

Nobody's trying to claim SA is perfect now, far from it, but it's got to be better than 20 years ago. Mandela fought for a just cause, a cause worth fighting for. That's what puts him in the same group as Washington, Churchill and Cromwell.

unstable load
10th Dec 2013, 07:38
Here's a review of the latest movie about Mandela. I haven't seen it, so can't comment. From the review, it does point to the beatification of a man who neither lusted after it nor deserved it.
MASS MARKETING THE MANDELA MYTH
Film Review

The new Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom film presents a selection and distortion of the history of South Africa and Nelson Mandela as the secular humanists of the New World Order would like us to perceive it. The film rushes through the life and times of Nelson Mandela, completely ignoring the Cold War context and threat of Soviet communism on the borders of South Africa at that time. It glosses over the murders and massacres of the Marxists and presents scenes that stereotype whites as racist and blacks as noble revolutionaries only seeking for justice.

Political Propaganda

Producer Anant Singh is recognised as South Africa's preeminent anti-apartheid film producer. Previous productions of Singh include: Place of Weeping, Sarafina!, Red Dust and Cry, the Beloved Country. Heavily funded by the South African ANC government and the Nelson Mandela Foundation, this
22 million Pounds authorised biopic presents a selection of incidents from the history of South Africa and the life of Nelson Mandela that will go a long way towards further marketing the Mandela myth.

Emotive Speeches Backed by Orchestras

Shot for spectacle with impressive crowd scenes, the legend of Nelson Mandela is presented with numerous speeches backed with swooning orchestration that climbs to emotional peeks whenever Nelson Mandela addresses any crowd.

English Born Actor Plays Mandela

London born actor, Idris Alba, plays Nelson Mandela from his early days as a smooth lawyer through his recruitment to the African National Congress (ANC), to his arrest, imprisonment, eventual release and election as president. Naomi Harris plays Winnie, the fiery revolutionary love interest and second wife of Nelson Mandela.

Animistic Circumcision Rituals

The film begins with Nelson Mandela as a teenager going through the Xhosa circumcision ritual where witchdoctors prepare youth for initiation rites.
The painting of their naked bodies in white chalk, passing through the smoke of burning everything relating to their childhood and washing off in the river, with full frontal male nudity, is disturbingly depicted.

Anachronism

Next we see the Nelson Mandela character depicted as a smooth lawyer in a three piece suite walking past anachronistic security gates and burglar bars (which did not exist in South Africa in the 1940s).

Shallow Stereotypes

The film is a mythic and heroic story of man against man. In this case it is a black man leading all black people against white people who are depicted as uniformly racist, shallow and stupid. The film makers apparently believed that the best way to exalt Nelson Mandela was to depict all whites as narrow-minded, selfish, racist bigots. The first scene of whites in the movie is of them sipping champagne on a balcony, while the black workers bustle around on the streets below. Numerous fictional incidents and comments are inserted in order to reinforce this stereotype.

Reluctant Revolutionary

The time worn cliché of the reluctant revolutionary is inserted into the story turning Nelson Mandela from a happy-go-lucky smooth lawyer confounding a white woman in the witness box, to a frustrated and angry revolutionary fighting for justice, peace and equality for all.

Police Brutality

Numerous incidents of mindless police brutality are depicted, giving the impression that, without any provocation, or reason, they would beat up, or shoot, black men, women and children in cold blood.

Adulterous Affairs and Abuse

Nelson Mandela's pattern of adulterous relationships and repeated beating of his first wife are briefly touched on in a few fleeting scenes. Then much attention is given to the romance with Winnie, who became his second wife.

Preferring Paganism

In contrast to the repeated, respectful treatment of animism, Christianity is dismissed in a few striking statements and scenes. Mandela states that God only seems to answer the prayers of the Boers, and Winnie declares that there is no God who will save us, we must save ourselves!

Necklace Murders

Later Winnie Mandela gives a revolutionary call to violence from the front of a church, where the cross is obscured. With much anger and expressions of hatred, Winnie Mandela repeatedly calls for using stones, boxes of matches and petrol to 'necklace' the informers and kill the enemy. One brutal burning to death of a supposed informer through the ANC's signature necklace method is depicted. Actually, over 1,000 black people were burnt to death by the brutal necklace murder, so publically promoted by Winnie Mandela. Many of these were elected black town councilors and mayors - but that is not acknowledged in this film, which claims that blacks had no rights, no votes and no elected representatives.

Ignoring the Cold War Context

Significantly there is no mention of the Cold War context and not a scene or a reference to communism, the Soviet Union or the Russian and Cuban troops, at that time engaged in conventional warfare on the border of Angola and South West Africa.

The Missing Victims

No mention is made of the Cuban training in terrorism received by Nelson Mandela. Nor are any of the victims of his bombing campaign depicted. From the film one would get the impression that his armed struggle consisted of nothing more than night time bombings of unoccupied municipal offices and a power station. In fact none of the ANC's car bombings are depicted, not even the Church Street bombing bloodbath. None of the ANC assassinations, such as of Bartholomew Hlopane, are depicted or referred to. Nor the Shell House massacre when Nelson Mandela, as head of the ANC, after his release from prison, ordered his security to open fire on unarmed Zulu protestors belonging to the INKATHA Freedom Party.

The Communist Connection

At no time does one even see a hammer and sickle. The huge Soviet and South African Communist Party flags that Nelson Mandela spoke in front of are nowhere to be seen in this film. Neither are any of the white Russian communist members of the ANC, such as Joe Slovo and Ronnie Kasrils, depicted in any way in this film.

The Making of a New Religion

It is disturbing that this film is due to open across the United States on Christmas Day. With songs of praise and hymns glorifying Nelson Mandela being sung by choirs and taught to school children, we seem to be seeing a beginning of a new religion.

Icon of the New World Order

Certainly Nelson Mandela is the pre-eminent icon and idol of the New World Order. The United Nations General Assembly has even declared 18 July, Nelson Mandela International Day!

Strategic Timing

The timing of this heavily state-funded propaganda film is interesting as the ANC, mired in corruption scandals, is heading into an election year.
Many see the timing of this film as a distraction from the disastrous failures of the ANC, by rewriting history to depict the past in the worst possible light and rally the voters of South Africa behind the party of the revered Nelson Mandela.

Blame Everything on Apartheid

The violence of the ANC is mostly blamed on Winnie Mandela, with Nelson Mandela apparently disapproving. Even when referring to Mandela's divorce from Winnie, Mandela's character blames it on the apartheid government!

The Missing Opposition Parties

There are disturbing and shocking scenes of the black on black violence in the townships with axing, macheting, shooting and hacking of men, women and children, but no explanations given as to who was doing what to whom. At no time is any hint given that there were actually other black political parties in South Africa, such as the INKATHA Freedom Party, with whom the ANC were locked in deadly turf wars.

The Last Word on Everything

Throughout the film, Nelson Mandela dominates the screen and always has the most intelligent and profound things to say. He always has the last word, even in court and in prison. No one else ever seems to have a reply for his dogmatic statements.

A Redemptive Message

After all the depictions of white racism and evil, the film concludes with Nelson Mandela commenting: "If I can forgive them - you can forgive them!"
He asserts "peace is the only way." The film ends with a quote from Mandela's Long Walk to Freedom book: "My country is not meant to be a land of hatred. People are taught to hate and they can be taught to love. Love comes more naturally than hate."

Divorced From the Historical Context

If the message of the film is forgiveness then it is a good message.
However, divorced from the context of the brutal war being waged by the ANC to intimidate the people in the townships, and terrorize farmers and civilians, this film turns communists into heroes and Christians into villains. It also denies the depravity of man, claiming that love (apart from God) is natural and dismisses God as irrelevant.

Presidential Performance

The film wisely stops at Mandela's Presidential Inauguration in May 1994.
That is understandable, because at two and a half hours long, the film drags and sags at times. It is quite episodic. However, it would be relevant to note that the Nelson Mandela presidency was a disappointment and a failure in many ways. Nelson Mandela reintroduced race classification for Affirmative Action, Black Economic Empowerment and job reservation. He legalised pornography and abortion. Violent crime exploded with rape and child abuse increasing 400% during his presidency. The currency imploded and the ANC looted the country of billions of rands through chronic corruption.

The Abortion Holocaust

Over one million babies have been killed, officially, legally, in South Africa, with taxpayer's money, since Nelson Mandela forced through the Termination of Pregnancy Bill 1 February 1997.

Crime Wave

Under Nelson Mandela's presidency, an average of 25,000 people were murdered each year. Yet, to celebrate his birthdays, Nelson Mandela would regularly open prison doors and set many convicted criminals, including armed robbers, murderers and rapists, free. Some of these were murdering and raping within
24 hours of being released. Well over 100,000 people were murdered under Mandela's term as president.

The Growth Industry of Murder

To put this into perspective, in 44 years of apartheid, 18,700 people were killed in politically related violence. This included soldiers, police, terrorists, civilians, necklace murders, rioters - all victims. However, after Mandela became president in 1994, an average of 25,000 people were murdered every year. Over 67,000 whites have been murdered in South Afica since 1994, 3,000 of them farmers. Many fear that this film will incite further race hatred and targeting of whites for murder. Genocide Watch warns that South Africa is already in the Genocidal process stage 6 targeting white Afrikaners for extermination.

Economic Deterioration

In the 1970s, even while facing terrorism, riots and engaged in a border war with the Cubans in Angola, the SA Rand was stronger than the US Dollar. In Mandela's first four years as president, the Rand lost 80% of its value and more than 2.8 million man days were lost to strikes. The national debt doubled under Nelson Mandela's presidency.

Financial Failure

Therefore, under Mandela, even with no war, no sanctions, no riots, no conscription and with massive international aid and investment, the Rand plummeted to R10 to the Dollar. Economic deterioration and sky-rocketing crime marred his presidency. The Economist at the time described Nelson Mandela's presidency as: "a failure."

Do Not Let the Facts Get In the Way of a Good Story

However, we are not meant to allow facts to get in the way of a good story.
So, this Mandela film calls us to forget all these facts and to shelve our pro-life, pro-family, moral convictions and bow before this new idol, sing this politician's praises and effectively burn incense before the image of a new Caesar.

Rewriting History

Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom presents a selection and distortion of the history of South Africa and Nelson Mandela as the African National Congress
(ANC) would like us to remember it. This heavily state-funded biopic is politically correct propaganda which markets the Mandela myth by ignoring the Cold War context and threat of Soviet communism on the borders of South Africa at that time. Stereotypical and episodic, it includes numerous obscenities, nudity, occultism, pagan and humanist worldviews, anti-Biblical and anti-Christian sentiments, immorality, adultery, drunkenness, smoking, extreme, brutal and disturbing violence, revisionist history and racism.
See: www.movieguide.org (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.movieguide.org%2F&h=FAQF8uqSAAQF74sZ3tx6TnCPO53avARKhE3WFz3OESeHzdg&s=1)
https://us-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=2%5f0%5f0%5f1%5f5241234%5fAK8k5C4AABz5UqX%2b0wA AAIgc2G4&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1&appid=yahoomail (https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/http:/www.movieguide.org/&h=faqf8uqsaaqf74sz3tx6tncpo53avarkhe3wfz3oesehzdg&s=1/-?pip=false&premium=false&client_uid=2448040184&client_ver=3.6.3.549&client_type=IEPlugin&suite=true&aff_id=662-4&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0)
Summary

Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom markets the Mandela myth by demonising white South Africans, dismissing Christianity and God, promoting paganism, occultism, humanism, socialism, and justifying violent revolution. The film is a mythic and heroic story of man against man. Despite ending with a call for forgiveness and love, the rest of the film seems more inclined to incite hatred and racial stereotyping. It does not allow the facts of history to get in the way of their story of this icon and idol of leftist causes and the socialist New World Order.

Dr. Peter Hammond.

Mac the Knife
10th Dec 2013, 08:07
The film is one thing, the man another.

I don't think anyone else could have managed our transition.

A pity neither of his successors had his vision or integrity.

Mac

:suspect:

Wyler
10th Dec 2013, 08:16
After the never ending drivel on every media outlet over the last few days, it is nice to see some balance for a change.

racedo
10th Dec 2013, 10:47
an Mandela took over a functioning country with a good infrastructure. He was only president for 5 years and the decline worsened significantly after his watch, under Mbeki and particularly under the criminals that Zuma installed. Unlike most African leaders Mandela stepped down and allowed what was called a free and fair election, even if it wasn't, to take place. No worse than anywhere else.

Well said:D:D:D

Somehow people want to pick everything negative about Mandela and chuck it in and make like he responsible for it all.

He served ONE term and had no desire for any more than that. Frankly if he could have avoided even serving one term I thing he would have done that.

Unlikely other countries he did it and moved away from it but there are those who will blame him for everything. He took his nation of all colours with him.

It was a transition Government, many thinks worked, many things didn't but the fact that Saffers of either side didn't start out with a bloody civil war to settle scores is not something that any planners envisaged in 1970's or 1980's.

Reading some of the garbage written on here about Mandela giving up violence and going to political means in 70's and 80's, well don't remember Govts of South Africa being that keen on it or going to OMOV.

Curious Pax
10th Dec 2013, 13:44
A cynic might suggest that this rush to highlight Mandela's faults (and I'm sure there were many - he himself mentioned quite a few) is giving justification in the posters' minds for supporting apartheid.

As others have suggested, a regime where 90% of the populace is disenfranchised is never going to end well. Mandela enabled the lid of the pressure cooker to be released slowly - the steam that came out was much preferable to the bang that would most likely have ensued otherwise.

That the current situation in South Africa is not great is undeniable. Maybe Mandela's passing will be a point on the road towards a plurocracy. At the moment apartheid's legacy is that the ANC can use it as a rallying call - vote against us and you are voting for apartheid. The sooner that moment passes, and the ANC splits on political grounds (hopefully without a bloodbath) the sooner SA can get on the road to prosperous democracy.

I see many parallels in the situation Russia and the ex Soviet states found themselves in post-communism. Previously excluded people suddenly had access to the honey pot - it should come as no surprise that many chose to make hay. It is taking Russia decades to sort themselves out - why should we expect SA to be any different?

G-CPTN
10th Dec 2013, 13:57
President Jacob Zuma suffered the indignity of some booing.
And 'wind-up' signals from the crowd (before his speech) signifying that they want change (in the regime).

Capetonian
10th Dec 2013, 16:58
President Jacob Zuma suffered the indignity of some booing. Really. Well, my heart bleeds for him. Booing is mild compared to what he deserves.

Mac the Knife
10th Dec 2013, 18:04
The legacy of two men in four words:

Mandela united. Zuma divides.

Mac

:*

cavortingcheetah
10th Dec 2013, 18:13
Some were heard to prophesy a massacre of the whites upon the passing of Madiba. So far so good but the groundswell of opinion is well against the ANC and as some sage once remarked:
'The time for the white man to tremble in his puttees is when the Indian turns against his own.'
It might have been Mohandas, the Mahatma, himself who said those words and in another continent but mark them well for they are just as apposite today as there and then.

obgraham
10th Dec 2013, 19:07
I gave up reading when it started pushing its own holier-than-thou agenda on issues like abortion. So any view different from your own is invalid? Who's the real holier-than-thou here?

cavortingcheetah
10th Dec 2013, 19:29
The invalidation of a view different than one's own is often nothing more than the application of wisdom.

At the first stage of the beatification, the man who shared the Nobel Peace Prize with Mandela in 1993.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/10/article-2521146-19FF724600000578-731_964x484.jpg

G-CPTN
10th Dec 2013, 19:59
Did Mugabe give a speech?

cavortingcheetah
10th Dec 2013, 20:07
A rare occasion to view a great congregation of villains cavorting at the expense of the oppressed tax paying masses of the world.

parabellum
10th Dec 2013, 22:37
The ANC arrival into government wasn't bloodless by any means. For years they bombed, shot, hacked and burnt their way to the top, the very violence that Mandela refused to renounce as a means to an end and he was held in jail for a further thirteen years after he completed his life sentence as a result, one could call it voluntary detention. The election was a forgone conclusion. I'm not sufficient of an apologist to ignore the fact that somewhere in the order of 3000 whites have been slaughtered in SA too, as a percentage of the white population that is a lot.

Capetonian
10th Dec 2013, 23:00
Nobody knows the true figures are but one thing is for sure. More people have been killed in violence since 1994 than in the apartheid years.

According to HRC statistics, 21,000 people died in political violence in South Africa during apartheid - of whom 14,000 people died during the six-year transition process from 1990 to 1994. The book lists the number of incidents, dates, and those involved.

Violent deaths from 1994 to 2000:
And the SA Police website (statistics at http://www.saps.org.za) shows that a total of 174,220 people died violent deaths, from crime-related violence, between 1994 and the year 2000.

To that we can add people who have died of poverty, ignorance, neglect, starvation, and AIDS due to Jacob Zuma's stance on AIDS and sex, namely that after raping an HIV+ female you can have a shower and you won't get AIDS, and she was asking for it because she was wearing a short skirt.

Still, it's now a free and democratic country so everyone is happy.

PTT
11th Dec 2013, 07:49
Apples and oranges, Capetonian. You're trying to compare "died in political violence" with "died violent deaths, from crime-related violence" and the two do not line up.

You can reasonably compare "died in political violence" before with after 1994, or "died violent deaths, from crime-related violence" before with after 1994, but cross-categorisation comparisons of the sort you've presented are without meaning.

I'm making no comment on the politics here, just the misuse of statistics (which goes beyond the fact that you admit that you don't know what the numbers are before going on to compare them...).

SpringHeeledJack
12th Dec 2013, 12:19
I didn't see this posted, so thought that it would speak volumes about the incompetence, cronyism, corruption attributed to the present SA govt.

Video: 'Fake' interpreter performs 'nonsense' sign language throughout Mandela memorial - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nelson-mandela/10510473/Fake-interpreter-performs-nonsense-sign-language-throughout-Mandela-memorial.html)

You couldn't make it up! :rolleyes:



SHJ

Capetonian
12th Dec 2013, 12:37
The last two paragraphs sum up the situation.
Nelson Mandela used to joke that if he got to heaven his first move would be to join the local branch of the African National Congress there. For he was a devoted party man: the ANC was his life. It is perhaps just as well that he is no longer here to see what his party has become.

His immediate successor, Thabo Mbeki, was a clever, paranoid and unbalanced man who refused to allow HIV/Aids sufferers to get the medicine that would save their lives. He also supported Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Once he stepped down from office, Mbeki was shunned by the international community. His successor, Jacob Zuma, is a genial but uneducated man (he learned to read and write only when in jail) who is quite at sea when dealing with the sort of problems that are regularly thrown up by a complex and diverse society such as South Africa.
Zuma came to power after a long struggle against Mbeki. In the course of that, Zuma had to fall back on his own Zulu roots. The Zulus are the most numerous black tribe and they took it very badly that Mbeki had sacked Zuma as his deputy-president. To many Zulus, supporting Zuma meant “taking back” the ANC — it was founded by a Zulu, John Dube, and Chief Albert Luthuli, also a Zulu, had led the anti-apartheid struggle in the Fifties. The Zulus had patiently put up with three successive Xhosa ANC leaders — Tambo, Mandela and Mbeki — and there was a strong feeling that “now is our time”.
Thus Zuma came to office at the head of a Zulu bloc, which immediately took all the key “security” ministries —Police, Justice and Intelligence — as well as quite a few others. Within his home province of KwaZulu-Natal, Zuma led a huge ANC registration drive which soon gave KwaZulu-Natal a preponderance within the ANC — and that province also garnered more than its fair share of big state projects.
Zuma himself is very much the traditional Zulu — he is currently in negotiation for his sixth wife and he has more than 20 children. He has used more than £27 million of state funding to build himself a huge, almost royal compound at his native Nkandla plus a new tarred road leading to it. All his marriages are conducted in traditional Zulu style, with Zuma dressed in leopard skins and holding a spear.
In the 2009 elections Zuma’s ANC won heavily in KwaZulu-Natal and lost ground almost everywhere else. I have just conducted an opinion survey which shows the same trend going even further in the coming 2014 elections. At the 2012 ANC conference KwaZulu-Natal voted through its own programme to become the national programme and the province took over half the seats on the ANC executive. This Zulu dominance is naturally resented by other groups, resulting in growing tribal consciousness and rivalry. Already this has knocked on into the ANC-supporting Congress of South African Trade Unions, where the pro-Zuma faction is being opposed by a largely Xhosa faction. This is particularly shocking for the ANC, formed in 1912 in order to abolish tribalism and unite all Africans under its banner.
The government, racked by corruption and in-fighting, seems to be slipping towards a debt trap. Already the rating agencies have downgraded South African bonds to only two grades above junk bond level. With large budget and trade deficits the country needs foreign capital inflows of at least 11 per cent of GDP year on year just to stand still. Despite that, the government is gaily going ahead with moves which can only affront foreign investors, such as the scrapping of investment protection treaties and demanding that foreign companies who own the lucrative private security business hand over 51 per cent of their shares.
When Walmart wanted to move into South Africa the government put up all manner of obstacles. Similarly, when a South Korean telecoms giant offered to revive South Africa’s dying state-owned telecom company, the move was vetoed by government. On top of that, the end of the US Federal Reserve’s quantitative easing is likely to hit South Africa hard as money is sucked back to the United States.
All of which will quite likely see the final downgrades which will make South African bonds junk. That could trigger a stock market crash, a further fall in the currency, large capital outflows and end up with South Africa being bailed out by the IMF. In turn, the IMF would impose conditions which the ANC would find very hard to swallow: a party split is likely at that point. The ANC Left would argue for a debt default and a Mugabe-style refusal of IMF terms but there is really no way out of that cul-de-sac.
What this boils down to is that the ANC has simply failed to govern South Africa effectively. It is an extremely difficult country to govern and the party has seriously underestimated the task. It may seem very sad if Mandela’s party ends up in the debtor’s court but a sharp dose of reality is probably what it needs. The whole country has drifted on in a state of Mandela-induced euphoria but the hard fact is that you can’t govern a country like this on auto-pilot and by militant gestures alone.
A pro-ANC consortium has taken over all the country’s major morning newspapers and the editor of the Cape Times has just been sacked after publishing a true story about government corruption. Meanwhile, the ANC has forced through a law attempting to prevent the press from publishing unwelcome facts about the government.
The country has become utterly corrupt under ANC rule. Government ministers enrich themselves more or less openly. After all, Zuma’s palace at Nkandla tells one how the President behaves. Civil servants, teachers and the police are all massively corrupt. Community riots against poor service delivery occur once every two days. Mandela may join the ANC up in heaven — but the party down below seems hell-bent.

Lonewolf_50
12th Dec 2013, 15:49
Even if you aren't keen on Mr Mandela, he certainly seems a more reasonable person when you compare him to Winnie, whom he married in 1959. I remember a lot of new coverage on her some years ago, as the uglier details came out of South Africa.

I don't think the following is unique problem in South Africa: the problem with freedom fighters and activists is that the good ones may be good at getting something changed or a government changed, but once in charge, are they any damned good? Same is true for some politicians. Some are good at getting elected, only to be poor at the job they were elected for. Maybe the problem for Winnie, Zuma, Mebki, and others is that running a country is a lot different than embarking on the political activism needed to overhaul and change a system, as was done in South Africa.
As to Winnie her own self ...
Her reputation was damaged by such rhetoric as that displayed in a speech she gave in Munsieville on 13 April 1986, where she endorsed the practice of necklacing (burning people alive using tyres and petrol) by saying: "With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country."
Further tarnishing her reputation were accusations by her bodyguard, Jerry Musivuzi Richardson, that she had ordered kidnapping and murder. On 29 December 1988, Richardson, who was coach of the Mandela United Football Club (MUFC), which acted as Mrs. Mandela's personal security detail, abducted 14-year-old James Seipei and three other youths from the home of a Methodist minister, Rev. Paul Verryn, claiming she had the youths taken to her home because she suspected the reverend was sexually abusing them. The four were beaten to get them to admit to having had sex with the minister. Seipei was accused of being an informer, and his body later found in a field with stab wounds to the throat on 6 January 1989.

In 1991, she was convicted of kidnapping and being an accessory to assault in connection with the death of Seipei. Her six-year jail sentence was reduced to a fine on appeal. The final report of the South African Truth and Reconciliation commission, issued in 1998, found "Ms Winnie Madikizela Mandela politically and morally accountable for the gross violations of human rights committed by the MUFC" and that she "was responsible, by omission, for the commission of gross violations of human rights."

In 1992, she was accused of ordering the murder of Dr. Abu-Baker Asvat, a family friend who had examined Seipei at Mandela's house, after Seipei had been abducted but before he had been killed.

Mandela's role was later probed as part of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hearings, in 1997. She was said to have paid the equivalent of $8,000 and supplied the firearm used in the killing, which took place on 27 January 1989. The hearings were later adjourned amid claims that witnesses were being intimidated on Winnie Mandela's orders.

During South Africa's transition to democracy, she adopted a far less conciliatory and compromising attitude than her husband toward the white community.
Caveat: the abobve is from a wikipedia summary, so there may be some lack of quality in the details ...

unstable load
14th Dec 2013, 16:36
He may as well have been doing this for all the good he did.

http://i.imgur.com/Wv4GTI9.gif

Capetonian
15th Dec 2013, 07:52
http://faceless.co.za/comics/faceless.1018.jpg

pigboat
16th Dec 2013, 01:35
Theodore Dalrymple: South Africa's Dubious Liberation. (http://takimag.com/article/south_africas_dubious_liberation_theodore_dalrymple#axzz2nbI cY8FW)

Capetonian
20th Dec 2013, 16:14
From Nigeria

FIRST LADY'S SPEECH TO NELSON MANDELA:

“Good Morning my fellow people,me,my husband and the plentiful peoples
of one great Nigeria send our condolence and congratulated South Africa
peoples for the die of their president yesterday evening,We are sadness...
to welcome the great man. I was sleep under my pillow yesterday when
my husband tell me that Mandela has death, I just shout no no no and I
start to cry,My husband and Mandela is a good friends,When my
husband was a children, Mandela give him his own shoe when he did not
have shoe.

Now Mandela she have made the African people a widow by died.
Mandela was a good mother,she taked care of us like his child,We are all
happy for Mandela’s life it is not easy to carry first in an International
competition. The kill that killed Nelson Mandela has making some
children a widow,my heart feels sorry for these children who have
becomes widows for losing their leaders or parents for one reason or
another,Mandela taught us to have love for our fellow Nigerians
irrespective of their NATIONALITY.

I was sad since he was in the hospital but I am happy when my husband tell me that doctors and nurses are responding to treatments. One great thing I learnt from Nelson Mandela is that I would rather kill myself instead of committing suicide.

G-CPTN
4th Jan 2014, 17:32
AbaThembu royals tell Mandela family to keep calm over estate | News | National | Mail & Guardian (http://mg.co.za/article/2013-12-29-abathembu-royals-tell-mandela-family-to-keep-calm-over-estate)

charliegolf
4th Jan 2014, 18:46
From Nigeria

FIRST LADY'S SPEECH TO NELSON MANDELA:

“Good Morning my fellow people,me,my husband and the plentiful peoples
of one great Nigeria send our condolence and congratulated South Africa
peoples for the die of their president yesterday evening,We are sadness...
to welcome the great man. I was sleep under my pillow yesterday when
my husband tell me that Mandela has death, I just shout no no no and I
start to cry,My husband and Mandela is a good friends,When my
husband was a children, Mandela give him his own shoe when he did not
have shoe.

Now Mandela she have made the African people a widow by died.
Mandela was a good mother,she taked care of us like his child,We are all
happy for Mandela’s life it is not easy to carry first in an International
competition. The kill that killed Nelson Mandela has making some
children a widow,my heart feels sorry for these children who have
becomes widows for losing their leaders or parents for one reason or
another,Mandela taught us to have love for our fellow Nigerians
irrespective of their NATIONALITY.

I was sad since he was in the hospital but I am happy when my husband tell me that doctors and nurses are responding to treatments. One great thing I learnt from Nelson Mandela is that I would rather kill myself instead of committing suicide. And to my special friend Captivonian, I say this, my close fiend Mandible have asked me to look after his substantial fortune. He urged me to give to you the pricely some of $40 million. If you will be so good as to send me your bank details i will make the transfer my new good friend.

Amended for Capetonian:ok:

CG

cavortingcheetah
4th Jan 2014, 20:23
THIS, FROM THEODORE DALRYMPLE, SUMS UP THE MANDELA GOLDEN SPONGE PUDDING WITH ADDITIONAL SULTANAS, RAISINS AND GOLDEN TREACLE QUITE DELICIOUSLY.

The unctuous pseudo-grief in the West after Nelson Mandela’s death at the good age of 95 was to me nauseating in the extreme; it was so overdone that, though I am no Freudian, it raised suspicions in my mind of reaction formation, the psychological defense mechanism against unwanted thoughts described by Freud that leads to exaggerated expressions of precisely opposite thoughts. The Guardian and the Observer, Britain’s two foremost liberal-left newspapers, had between them approximately fifty broadsheet pages devoted to Mandela, many times more than the return and re-crucifixion of Christ would have received. Methinks these newspapers (and many others) did protest too much.

This is not to say that Mandela was without importance or that he merited no praise. His greatest achievement by far, and an important one, was the avoidance of the interracial violence that had long been predicted as “inevitable” in South Africa and the only way things would ever change there. He did this by his dignity and lack of rancor after his release from prison and during his presidency, the first presidency post-apartheid. For example, his enthusiasm for the South African team in the rugby World Cup, whether genuine or not, was a wise and shrewd way of trying to prove that South African patriotism should transcend racial divides, for of course the team was mostly white. No better way of calming fears symbolically could well have been imagined; Mandela played the part to perfection, and all honor to him for that.

“There is nothing like adversity to produce both swine and admirable people.”
But we should not exaggerate, either. The event that saved his historical reputation was not under his control. It was the downfall of the Soviet Union, for it was surely not a coincidence that the un-banning of the African National Congress and the release of Mandela himself happened only after the implosion of the Soviet bloc. Until then the Communist Party of South Africa, both the most Stalinist and the most resolutely pro-Soviet of communist parties anywhere (not always an easy balance to preserve), had what in Soviet langue de bois was called “a leading role” in the ANC.

As it happened I was in South Africa about the time of the great transition, shortly after the ANC was legalized, and I interviewed Joe Slovo, one of the communist leaders of the ANC who had just returned from exile. (His wife, Ruth First, a woman who liked every revolution however disastrous its effects, was murdered by the South African Secret Service by means of a letter bomb.)

Slovo, who wrote Pravda-style langue de bois fluently, was a pleasant man, but I found him to be not particularly intelligent. When I asked him whether during his many visits to the Soviet Union he had noticed anything about it—for example, the absence of goods in the shops and the lack of freedom—he replied that what I had to understand was that the Soviet Union had always supported the freedom struggle in South Africa and that he was always the honored guest of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, and that therefore he was always driven in limousines from the airport to excellent accommodation where he was very well fed and watered.

This did not strike me as a particularly impressive answer. I asked him whether he thought it was not a little foolish to recommend an entire socioeconomic system for South Africa on the experiential basis of flattery of his person and the consumption of banquets, and he rather feebly agreed that perhaps it had been.

By then, of course, there was no possibility of South Africa following the Soviet path; by then Russia had neither the means nor the will to support or prop up yet another catastrophically failed state in Africa, this time on a scale far exceeding its previous efforts. Prominent leaders of the ANC whom I met had by then dropped all ideological pretensions of a Soviet hue and had gone over to sharp mohair suits and lizard-skin shoes.

In this I saw an entirely hopeful sign, at least from the point of view of avoiding interracial violence. The thin-soled lizard-skin shoes I took to be an indication that the ANC’s leaders did not want any longer to destroy the economic elite, they wanted to join it, and this was much preferable to the preposterous and dangerous idea of a complete economic and social transformation.The point about Nelson Mandela is that he was equally willing to go along with both the Stalinist and the lizard-skin-shoe school of economic thought. When Stalinism was the fashion, he was not opposed to it. Nor did he appear to mind much when the lizard-skin-shoe brigade became predominant. He was fortunate that, due to historical circumstances, the second prevailed and prevented him from passing into history as a failed socialist despot. He would have become the latter only after the conclusion of a hideous racial war, but having been head of a guerrilla organization, he had no very settled objection to political violence or to those who employed it.

It does not seem to me fair, however, to blame Mandela for the fact that liberation has left many of the liberated worse off than they were before they were liberated. Liberation has the nasty habit of doing precisely that, and the circumstances in South Africa were particularly inauspicious for a happy liberation. All in all it could have been considerably worse. In the event the compromise—political without economic reform, co-option of a few into the elite, lizard-skin shoes for the truly important—was about the best that could be hoped for, and Mandela fit the bill admirably. He was a nice old gentleman.

The settlement of which he was the figurehead will not be stable, however. I doubt that black South Africans will forever be satisfied with promises about the glorious future or with an economic and social situation that, for them, does not improve. One day an irresistible leader will arise who will persuade them that they must act on the belief that wealth is theft and that with justice prosperity will come. The rich will flee, famine will stalk the land, and the lizard-skin-shoe class will prosper as never before.

When I think of my time in South Africa—my second time actually, the first time I nearly fell afoul of BOSS, the Bureau of State Security—and of the admirable people I met there (there is nothing like adversity to produce both swine and admirable people), I do not think of the leaders of the ANC, I think rather of the African doorman of the public art gallery in Johannesburg, who perhaps saved my life, or at least my wallet.

I was leaving the gallery (I love colonial painting) when he said to me, “Where do you think you’re going?”

“To look for a taxi,” I replied.

“Don’t you know it’s the killing fields out there?” he said. “You’ll be set upon before you’ve gone a few yards. I’ll call a taxi for you.”

I was impressed by his solicitude for me, evidence of a firm, nonracial, nonpolitical ethic. I recall him to this day—he couldn’t have been paid much—with admiration and gratitude.

Johannesburg hadn’t been like that the last time I was there, fifteen years previously. Liberation had begun.