Thames Valley Air Ambulance

[Earpiece]

I've heard that the Thames Valley Air Ambulance is to change aircraft/hands from A109 Power and Sloane to something else - McAlpine/Bond EC135 perhaps?

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[PANews]

I understand that such a move is likely. There is no chance of a 135 for at least 18 months and frying pans and fires springs to mind.

Both Thames Valley and Yorkshire have been trying to cut costs as the AA money runs down and moving to another supplier is a classic way to achieve this. Trying to operate a new aircraft is far harder than and old one. Looks good but the repayments can cripple.

If TVAC is to change aircraft I think they may well return to their humble beginings.... its cheaper.

[flygunz]

I beleive you might see a couple of B105s doing the job.

[PANews]

They confirmed the move Tuesday [14th].

On Thursday they start up with Bond [BASL] using a BO105. The move is as they candidly say 'more affordable'.

The Thames Valley unit was the flagship for NAAAS when it was new and someone thought that the flagship should have a snazzy new heli - hence the 109 Power [or two really because one was pranged].

They just could not afford the new ship. They were flying a sports car where a box van would do just fine.

Perhaps now they will find their feet and get together enough finance to fly an 'EC135' [their quote not mine] in a year or so.

Good luck to them they need some fortune.

[Thomas coupling]

Does that mean there will be no 109's flying in the emergency services fleet now?

[PANews]

Hello TC,

No 109s flying regular emergency services in the UK. There will/may be occasional charter EMS no doubt.

Dyfed-Powys Police [they suffered a crash recenty] have yet to make a decision on what to replace their own 109 with so it is a mite too early to write the type off.

The 109/119 [Koala] remain popular in the world emergency services arena of course - mainly EMS.

[bosher]

Also if the ambulance trust sold all their latest road ambulances, and replaced them with 30 year old Austin mini vans, this would save EVEN more money!!!!


I think there would be an out cry!!

[nickp]

Thanks for the informed comment Bosher, my company was seriously considering supporting the Thames Valley Air Ambulance but if the new helicopter is comparable to a 30 year old Austin mini van, that would obviously be a waste of money. We will find a different charity.

[Thomas coupling]

What are they going to do 18 months from now when the 105 will no longer be allowed to fly night ops (HEMS)..may as well bite the bullet now and buy a glass cockpit EC135...

[md 600 driver]

why not buy a 902 instead and do the job right first time

[PushTo Shock]

Is anyone doing night HEMS, Bo 105, EC135 or otherwise???

[PANews]

Is anyone doing night HEMS, Bo 105, EC135 or otherwise???

No. But it will come.

And for that you will need an IFR capable airframe that the CAA accepts as being up to the job.

[iids me]

PANews you are wrong

Both Sussex and Wiltshire joint Police/ambulance units do night HEMS. Sussex for some years now, originally using the BO 105 and now the Explorer.

[md 600 driver]

like i said why not get a explorer 902

[Hoverman]

I know the A109 had an 'incident'. Is that the only reason it's not been popular with Police / HEMS?

Serious question, I've never operated one.

[What Limits]

Is it night HEMS or night CASEVAC ?

[PANews]

I stand corrected on the police operations front I was wearing my blinkers and was thinking purely in HEMS terms [I think I made that mistake before and Sussex dived in then!]

As for ...

I know the A109 had an 'incident'. Is that the only reason it's not been popular with Police / HEMS?

My understanding is that the [public domain] reason for parting company with the HEMS A109 was pure cost. After three years the charity [it went bust once] has still not entirely got its act together and still has no collections strategy in some rich pickings parts of its area [Oxford mentioned].

Upshot is that they decided to get out of a new airframe with its high costs until they do find their feet.

The AA funding has stopped, just £500,000 or so a year now, but additional money had been put aside for the A109 by the AA. In the end though they just could not hack living hand-to-mouth for another term.

On the positive side they have already said they want back into a new generation aircraft as soon as possible.

Did I get anything else wrong? Must watch what I write!

[Thomas coupling]

I'm more than prepared to take a hit on this, so get your darts out, but:
I am led to believe that the 902 is not certified to fly IFR in IMC, by the CAA. To that end how does it fly Night HEMS, which is IFR ops?

If this is the case (albeit temporary until the CAA get sorted) then my suggestion is:

"get an EFIS 135 CPDS 2B2 T" (md 600!)

Next...............;)

[BungleBob]

Thomas C From what I have heard you are correct. Also does the Explorer not have a tendency to ' weathercock back into wind' and there is not a lot you can do about it. Surely a helicopter that will hover side on to a 50 knot wind is a better bet when operating into an ad hoc site, at least it will point the way you expect. No 'Bl**job' for me on this one!! As you I expect to take a hit on this one, so I'll take one step back and start digging. :cool:

[902Jon]

Thomas coupling
The London HEMS 902 is certified for two-crew IFR and is awaiting single pilot certification from the CAA. There are 4 instrument rated pilots on type there as well.

Night HEMS operations to Primary accidents/incidents are not undertaken by air ambulances operating on an AOC, but police a/c on PAOC can. Secondary transfers (hospital to hospital) can be done by air ambulances at night subject to normal public transport landing site criteria. Flight from a primary site can be undertaken to a lit hospital site if night has fallen since landing at the site.

BungleBob
Can I suggest that landing in a 50kt x-wind by day or night with any aircraft is not recomended. A site further from the incident but into wind could save a lot of paperwork and red faces in the end.

[Bearintheair]

The main reasons that we chose the 902 for our joint Police / HEMS operation were:
1. Excellent Grp A performance & payload
2. Enormous cabin to cope with all the kit needed for the dual role
3. High main rotor and no tail rotor giving excellent safety for ad hoc landing sites
4. Its very quiet !

As a footnote to the above, we've done night HEMS for years and I wouldn't even contemplate it in a HEMS aircraft with no FLIR.

It IS night HEMS, we operate under a PAOC with a HEMS approval from the CAA. The rules we work to are in the HEMS appendix to the PAOM and are a straight lift from JAROPS. The key bit of kit for night single pilot HEMS ops as far as the CAA are concerned is an autopilot which is why we can do it in the 902 but not in the 105.

[Helinut]

Apart from the special case of PAOC HEMS, "ordinary" HEMS is surely done with a normal AOC. To fly at night Commercial Air Transport you don't need an IFR aircraft (so long as you remain VMC), but single pilot it must have a working autopilot.

Does anyone do non-PAOC HEMS at night?? I would have thought it was difficult to land at ad hoc sites (unlit) at night within the AOC rules.

[The above refers to UK, but then I think most everyone else on this thread was talking UK too]

[Thomas coupling]

902Jon: London HEMS is unique in that the helo is fitted with 2 Gyros which are separately sourced. Should one fail (pilot/co-pilot) then the other takes over. No other 902 has this fit in the Uk. That is why they are allowed to do night HEMS/IMC.

Bearintheair: I suspect you haven't been doing night HEMS for years because until the JAR OPs 30005d appendix was adopted by PAOC holders, it was called 'casevac' which was a specific role (police) utilised to assist those with an 'immediate threat to life'!

Why do you need 'FLIR' for night HEMS?????? Are you flying on this during your landings and takeoffs??????

In the police world only 2 (I think) do night HEMS:
Wilts and Sussex (in fact I'm not sure if it's only one of these).
They do it single pilot, because:
(a) They have auto pilot (serviceable!)
(b) The CAA have allowed them to fly 'specific to their geographical area' with only one pilot. Unlike us who would never get this dispensation!
(c) They have a qualified 'HEMS' crewmember onboard.
(d) They must remain VMC.

The caveat 'night casevac' remains. All police helos can do night casevacs whenever and wherever they wish provided they comply with the PAOM 1. Though I suspect this will be removed when the PSAOM comes out.



Your turn..................

:)

[Bearintheair]

The CAA have always considered those police units who have a formal arangement with their ambulance service (ie full time paramedics, funding etc) as conducting HEMS ops under their PAOC.

The legal position was clarified 1998 when we received an exemption from the requirement to hold an AOC for HEMS and since the introduction of the JAROPS compliant HEMS Appendix to the PAOM we have operated under a PAOC HEMS approval.

The FLIR is used to select and recce ad hoc landing sites as the nightsun just isn't enough when you're putting down in a black hole.:)

[john du'pruyting]

TC, are you admitting that you can do night HEMS under VFR single pilot. Providing of course, you have the specific geographical area defined to the satisfaction of the man at CAA?:p (and of course your unit has an approval from the same man to commit an act of HEMS!!)

[Thomas coupling]

Yes?

[OOPS 78]

Question.

The Police ASUs that are using NVG. What are the limitations placfed upon you for landings, take offs and minimum weather limits?

Question.

If night operations are proving to be such an operational and rule obeying nightmare, why not just use the mil SAR force who can quite happily fly at night in most weathers?

[PurplePitot]

Or alternatively; get Police and Hems air ops away from the CAA quagmire and operate under JSP318;)

[MightyGem]

OOPS, the weather limits when using NVGs are the same as when not using them.

[Thomas coupling]

Oops 78: Currently, you can't land nor takeoff, using NVG. It's only allowed as an 'aid' to cruise flight.

We use it to identify bad weather, obstructions, wires, and at scene, with the nightsun, to search "visually" as well as thermally.

However, the Home office 'may' consider recommending more general use of NVG's in the not too distant future. The CAA might even allow us to take off and land too:D

As MG said, should the goggles fail, you have to be able to revert to existing night weather limits.

Fantastic piece of supplemental equipment...should be mandatory for rural flying.

[john du'pruyting]

TC, I appreciate that you use NVG for rural ops, but on the occasions that you are over a built up area, how do you find them
(and the answer, I just look 1 inch ahead and there they are is not what i am looking for";) )

[Thomas coupling]

They are only used for close in confined searches in a built up area, by the police observers themselves.

[john du'pruyting]

ah...cheers for that

[Heliport]

PurplePitot

Good to see you posting again.
We've missed your contributions - you've been a bit quiet for the past few months.