Jet Departure from Courchevel!

[specialbrew]

Pretty scary if an engine were to fail prior to or even after V1.....

525 m and 18.5% runway gradient

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=75c_1383854924

[Tray Surfer]

Impressive to watch... Although I would prefer not to be onboard... :D

It was posted a few weeks ago in this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/527435-could-done-under-aoc.html

[specialbrew]

Ah..OK thanks, had not seen the previous thread..... Very interesting!

This shot is the same aircraft rotating at the end of runway....

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/global700/Courchevel.png (http://s144.photobucket.com/user/global700/media/Courchevel.png.html)

[CaptainProp]

:eek: WTF? Is that the end, as in THE end, of the runway??!!

[cldrvr]

I wouldn't call that rotate, that is chucking it of the end and praying the wings bite.

[ginopino]

AFM says max rwy slope +/- 2% ............

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Beautiful and amazing! :D

specialbrew (although you should try Denmark's Elephant Beer) can you post the video from which you posted the still shot? :ok:

[specialbrew]

Here you go....

Altiport de Courchevel - YouTube

[Deep and fast]

Bollocks the size of space hoppers but not sure about the brain size :eek:

D and F :8

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Wow!!

Well, I've added a new item of my list of things to do before I'm 50 - and one of them is hire a Citation to fly me into and out of Courchevel!

I love pilots with nerve and skill! :ok:

[josephfeatherweight]

So, there's going to be a whole lot of reasons why that was possibly a bad (illegal?) idea...
But, man, that was awesome!

[His dudeness]

Probably a former naval aviator ?

[Evelyn Higginbottom]

Probably a former naval aviator!

Lol, I like it.

[StressFree]

Reckless, totally reckless....... :eek:

[TWT]

I'd like to see the video of it landing there :)

Edit: sorry Tray Surfer,I see my question had been asked already in that thread by GF

[cambioso]

The landing at Courchevel is the easy bit compared with the take off. The only thing is, that once you are inside about a mile from the threshold, you are committed to land (always up the hill of course). There is no go around from that point on!
Good fun though.................In the correct aircraft!!

[Pace]

He was probably going around the corner to have a crack at Meribel :E Even Shorter and steeper.
What has happened to Real Men who smoke Capstan full strength and do stupid things like that in our liability pen pushing nanny :ok:society

just like an aircraft carrier fly off the edge dip the nose for flying speed and away you go :ugh:

pace

[con-pilot]

just like an aircraft carrier fly off the edge dip the nose for flying speed and away you go

But don't most of those aircraft have ejection seats. :p

[Pace]

Real Men who smoke capstan full strength don't bother with ejection seats :E

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

The landing at Courchevel is the easy bit compared with the take off.

Not for this customer. :sad:

7bS_Fo7P5U4

[tommoutrie]

Chaps I don't really get this. It doesn't say in the super cub manual that you can stick the brakes on and water ski. It doesn't say in the aero commander manual that you can shut both engines off and do aeros all the way down. It doesn't say in the 707 manual that you can roll it. But they all make for great videos don't they!

Aircraft like the citation are only certified for +-2 degrees because that covers most of what people want to do with them but this bloke has obviously thought about it and that's obvious for two reasons. 1, he didn't crash it on the way in and if you haven't put some thought into flaring onto a 30 degree upslope you'll duff it. And 2, he's done exactly what you should do taking off from a slope like that and gone blasting through V1, rotate, V2 and left it on the ground up to the tyre speed so that he doesn't have to rotate and risk clouting the tail. Climbing away isn't the issue, the terrain is disappearing below you.

If the pilot is reading, nice one, do it again mister. I'm planning a day trip to Lundy in the global..

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Climbing away isn't the issue, the terrain is disappearing below you.

For a little while yes, then there are some hills in front! :E

I expect most people to criticize this pilot but I think he has spirit and as a result I am planning to visit Courchevel. :ok:

[Doodlebug]

Interesting post, Mr. Tommoutrie, with regards to not doing the regular rotation so as to avoid a tailstrike on departure. How would he have modified the landing to take the upslope into account, do you think?

[His dudeness]

ground up to the tyre speed

That would be 165kts IIRC....you think one could keep it on the ground at that speed...?

OTOH, the first - or last when you depart - bit of that rwy really looks almost level, so maybe you're within the 2° there ? One needs to be a tad creative with these things ! ;) :)

[drag king]

Interesting post, Mr. Tommoutrie, with regards to not doing the regular rotation so as to avoid a tailstrike on departure.

On the clip taken at the end of the RWY one can notice the nose-wheel is already off the ground before he/she runs out of tarmac and (I assume) the weight is already off the mains, so that counts as a rotation in my book. Not familiar with the type or the airfield, though.

Would be great if the chap/chapess would like to share his/her own experience here!

DK :)

[Doodlebug]

I believe you're both right. It certainly wasn't a 'normal' rotation but he also does seem to have got the nose off ever so slightly, before he runs out of concrete. Timed it just so, impressive. I wonder if the landing entails ref +10 or so, so's to allow for a higher flare, higher nose in the flare, that is, before running out of energy? Brave man, not much leeway for getting it wrong on that postage-stamp.

[tommoutrie]

Hey I just like it when people do fun stuff that's all.

Well there's the issue of approaching the up sloping runway where the pilot feels they are high so will tend to fly a shallow approach and speed control can be a bit odd because you're not flying a normal approach. Then the flare is to a higher than normal nose attitude so he has to flare correctly using the far end of the runway as a reference. Losing the energy after landing is obviously greatly assisted by the upslope but if he gets too slow there's the possibility of stopping and rolling backwards which will never end well - if you're lucky it will end up sitting on its tail..

Taking off there will be a tendency to rotate to the normal cues given by the horizon which won't be good because that would be likely to biff the tail. Gaining enough speed to fly won't be tough because of the slope so leaving it on the mains until well after Vr and even V2 will mean much less rotation is required to make it fly so the chances of a tailstrike are less.

Realistic problems are how on earth do you calculate a V1, I've got no idea because once it's charging off down the hill I doubt anything would stop it so I suspect V1 was walking pace. I would fly if it fell of the end of the runway if you stuck the nose down!

Never done it, wish I had the money to buy a CJ or a 500 and go and do stuff like that and chuck the rules out of the window because I think everyone will admit, seeing slightly crazy stuff done in planes is pretty cool. I strongly suspect that although its miles outside the flight manual, the pilot has put an awful lot more thought and experience into it than some suspect. Which is normally true of people doing unusual things in planes where there is a successful outcome.

I've decided that Lundy is too short..

[I.R.PIRATE]

V1 is the last item on the line up checklist.

[clunckdriver]

Having flown from some similar strips in the north, I dont see it as such a big deal, yes you are toast if one quits but this is true on the light twin I fly below blue line regardless of the runway slope/ obstructions/terain, what I want to know is who was the brave bugger driving the roller when they paved the runway?!

[cambioso]

And your point is I.R.?

[1Bingo]

Gravity is a wonderful thing! Not quite flying, just unload to get her going.

[tommoutrie]

I think IR's point is that V1 is as soon as he's rolling. Similar to "at what point are you committing to continuing with this bungee jump"

[I.R.PIRATE]

Yup, thats what I mean. Once you power up and release the brakes - you are going.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Just to help put some of the landing conversation into context -

fcfVpRqtx9A

Regarding the take off, when the Citation leaves the runway how far does it sink before gaining height, 25-30ft?

[Photoburst]

The jet.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3694/11258640964_851ca31458_c.jpg

Dolphin Express Corp. Cessna 551 Citation II SP N127BU departing Geneva Int 23 May 2007 Photo, Paul Denton

[envoy]

We used to land the Caribou on a similar upslope/length strip in PNG (Kagi, near Kokoda).

The landing technique required you to anticipate and ignore the visual cues that messed with your finals perception - and in such a high tech aircraft as the 'Bou, you went for power/airspeed/rate of descent to verify glide path - no HUD with a velocity vector and GPA!

The flare required an over rotation to prevent excessive closure rate with the rising runway. Power was re-applied once the flare was established, to assure you had forward speed later in the landing roll. The teaching at the time was that you should not come to a halt on the runway, otherwise you might not have adequate power to taxi upslope to the flat 'tarmac' at the end for the turnaround in preparation for departure. Remembering to chop the power once you hit the flat bit at the end was a gotcha!

Density altitude due to elevation/high ambient temperature was also a factor to be considered for the flare judgement/power application. In a piston engined prop we had no issues with spool up time like a jet engine would have.

Takeoff was just as mentioned below - brakes release was your go/no go point. If you lost an engine going down the hill, you went off the end of the runway and descended into the valley to make single engine flying speed. There was another runway nearby, across the other side of the valley (the name escapes me) where you could subsequently land.

All good sport!:ok: But I have to admit, I wouldn't want to do it with a swept wing and jet engines. Call me chicken!

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

Don't know what all the fuss is about. Give me a CJ and a flight instructor to do the training and i'd give it a go! :ok: Jez you in? :}

[His dudeness]

chicken!

Satisfied ? :)

[apruneuk]

Macho bulls@@t stunt flying. Impressive to look at but would have been a whole lot different with an engine out or a blown tyre after V1. I wonder what the second segment climb profile would have looked from this airport (6500' amsl)?
The reason that this flight couldn't have taken place under public transport regulations is that there were unacceptable safety margins to satisfy the duty of care requirements for fare-paying passengers. Captain, what about your duty of care to the Boss in the back, his or her oblivious colleagues and your starry-eyed FO?
I sincerely hope that this was an owner pilot on a solo jolly and not a professional crew with passengers on board. If it was a professional crew then I implore the FO to read the sorry tale of VP-BAF at Samedan and get away from this operation before that Captain kills you.

AP

[Pace]

Photo burst

N127BU used to be my baby had a lot of time in the aircraft ;)
Nice pic

Pace

[ginopino]

....by the rule the airworthiness certificate had to be suspended...

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

N127BU used to be my baby had a lot of time in the aircraft.

:D :D

After seeing the video my impression of Citation pilots has increased a lot, well done. :ok:

[Pace]

Yes I had a lot of time in N127BU but never flew her into or out of Courchevel :{ and do not fly the aircraft now.

Pace

[Guptar]

Citation Mtn Air Landing 08 29 08 - YouTube

A strip similar to the one in France

[Pace]

Yes a Citation can do all these things! I have taken a 500 into Thruxton but with no PAX and minimal fuel !
It really depends on what level of risk you are prepared to take and whether you should take risk decisions for your passengers ?

Pace

[tommoutrie]

been to Fairoaks and Bembridge in citations.
I'd love to go to corchevel in one. Going to chambery on sunday in the global..perhaps I should divert....

[First.officer]

Hope you got your DGAC Approval (Cat Brief) at Chambery in, for Sunday Tom - looks like forecast is fog ;-)

F/o

[tommoutrie]

We are less than 20 seats so I think the brief has to be on board. Anyway, probably only been there 30 times. Have they moved any of the hills? When did you turn into an aviation nazi anyway!

[First.officer]

You vill obey ze rules at all times Herr Tom ;-).....

But....as per conversation, your right...I just looked at the French AIP, and yep, for you, only Article 1 applies ;-)

I got confused....which happens easily ;-)

F/o

[tommoutrie]

What about corchevel? Can I go there?

[First.officer]

Yeah, no issues with Corchevel......you'll need to take the disposable GLEX though.....the AAIB will then write a full brief for you, saves time, money and effort all round ;-)

F/o

[tommoutrie]

Right.. Am in the sim in January. I shall do corchevel in the sim and vid it and post it on here. They will only let me do it once as we don't get much mess around time. Let's run a book..

Success is absolutely normal landing, no more than medium braking, park at the top of the hill, and a normal departure.

A Mess is heavy or long landing, resulting in max braking, squeals of derisory laughter from the SFT and other pilot.

Failure is a smegging..

Place your bets gents!

[tommoutrie]

It's simply an experiment. Can an average pilot with limited mountain experience land a global at corchevel and take off again?

I wonder if the visuals for corchevel are in the sim database?

[CL300]

they are in for the Dash-8. Depending on the centre , they can sometimes cross load the terrain. It all depends on the visual technology employed. If you pay , you can have it. In the old days it was a matter of coding, now it is more complicated..

[First.officer]

Well, I want to place my bet somewhere between "success" and "a mess".....Definitely want to see the vid, should be interesting ;-)

F/o

[specialbrew]

I actually think it is do-able in the Global (but only in a life or death situation). Braking power is phenomenal and as for departure.... We often get airborne before the numbers when departing RW24 at Farnborough (at lighter weights) which is about 400m from memory.

A friend of mine successfully completed a landing/take off onto an aircraft carrier in Hong Kong Harbour...in the sim!

[Booglebox]

Do a Golden Gate Bridge loop in the sim Tom... then land on the bridge :cool:

[tommoutrie]

I've rolled everything I've done a type on in the sim but they never seem too keen on letting me loop with the motion on. I think it runs out of travel to simulate the g. Rolling is a sim day one type rating tradition for me.

[CL300]

Just have to do it for the base check.... That was a "tradition" at Learjet..




2010 Jacqueline Cochran Air Show - Clay Lacy Lear 24 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/yNX59Wv3MOE)

[maxred]

What a great show....Classic

[DoItForTheThrill]

We have to fly the sims out every morning, a morning readiness without a a loop or roll is wasted ;)

The corchevel in a GEX challenge is accepted, dont know if we have the visual database though...

TG

[CL300]

If you are at FSI, IT can pull it out from the dash-8 sim.. depending on the visual, i think that it has to be Vital VII and above..

[1Bingo]

You nay-sayers just don't get it. V-speeds are N/A when you have altitude to compensate.