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SpringHeeledJack
3rd Dec 2013, 09:54
So, there I was on a flight 5mins to push back and with good fortune was alone with 2 rows of empty seats in front and behind. Just then 8 people turned up with allocated seats at the back of the plane, but on hearing the hostie at the door announce 'boarding completed' they (the passengers) said 'you can sit anywhere you want' to each other and all of a sudden I was not alone....Cue some mumbled curses under my breath, but such is life :)

My question is this, I was under the impression that you cannot change assigned seating unless the cabin crew is asked/informed due to safety/security issues etc. The crew seemed uninterested/unaware, so I'm assuming that my impression is false. I do remember speaking to an accident investigator some years back talking through some of the techniques used to identify victims in the unfortunate event of a crash and he mentioned this (seat allocation manifest) being the first call in the identification process.

ExXB
3rd Dec 2013, 11:46
Don't think there is any rule. Often when you hear "boarding completed" on a not full flight there is a mad rush to spread out. I've done it many times myself and the crew was nonplussed.

Even if you did tell the crew, they have no way of updating the system, which is on the ground.

May be helpful in an accident, but I doubt it is the only thing they would check.

PAXboy
3rd Dec 2013, 13:00
I've seen folks bag empty rows during the climb out. I recall having my eye on a row with three empty seats in the middle and thinking I'd snaffle that as soon as the Belts went Ping. :ok:

Within a minute of rotation, a young man had slipped his belt, dived across to the row and got comfy. :sad:

By the time the Ping went - he was stretched across all three, wrapped in a blanket and the seat belt correctly fastened across the outside. The crew would have been hard pressed to to get him to go back to his original seat since his only crime was ignoring the belt sign.

Hotel Tango
3rd Dec 2013, 13:00
But if on a smaller a/c such as a commuter, be aware that too many self initiated seat changes could seriously affect the weight & balance of the a/c. So always best in these cases to check with CC, who in turn will check with the FD (as I recently witnessed on an EMB-175 flight.

DaveReidUK
3rd Dec 2013, 13:21
I do remember speaking to an accident investigator some years back talking through some of the techniques used to identify victims in the unfortunate event of a crash and he mentioned this (seat allocation manifest) being the first call in the identification process.Yes, it's strange that the airlines don't try to dissuade people from changing seats by explaining that their incinerated remains after the crash will be that much more difficult to identify.

wowzz
3rd Dec 2013, 13:36
I've always taken the view that once the doors were closed [but obviously before the taxi], and therefore all pax were on board, any 'spare' seats were fair game.
Never had any cc issues.

Hotel Tango
3rd Dec 2013, 15:08
wowzz, that may be the case on the larger airliners A319/B737 and upwards. Not so on smaller commuters such as EMB-120, Metroliners, even the DHC-8. The smaller the a/c the more critical the problem can become.

Capot
3rd Dec 2013, 15:51
their incinerated remains after the crash will be that much more difficult to identify. We were told, with memorable illustrations, on a course on dealing with air accidents some years ago, that it's quite normal to recover the teeth from the seat cushion in which they became lodged after passing through the body, itself rather compressed, after a high-speed downwards impact. (With a forward impact the teeth tend to end up in the seat in front.) The teeth do not usually separate from the skull or jawbone, thus preserving an identifiable and unique feature of a victim.

So knowing who was in what seat is always a help, but not the only way of doing it, and can be unreliable. Teeth are much better in these days of dentistry that's universally well documented except in Russia, parts of China and the Far East, and Africa. And of course Leeds.

I thought you would want to know this.

SpringHeeledJack
3rd Dec 2013, 16:28
The teeth 'angle' was one of the other methods described to me, the AAI chap also mentioned that the brace position was to keep the jaw closed (and the teeth intact for forensic examination) as much as to attempt to alleviate blunt trauma on the neck and spine should the crash be survivable.

As to changing seats, we've all done it I'm sure, it just made me wonder if there was an official stance from the airlines. Thanks for the replies.



SHJ

TightSlot
3rd Dec 2013, 16:43
I have a standard PA (in economy) that I make for loads of 70% or less.... I tell people the % full but advise them that for reasons of weight and balance they should remain in their check-in allocated seats for take-off: As soon as the seatbelt signs are switched off, they are free (and welcome) to move anywhere that they want. I also remind them that if they have a special meal booked, an change seat, it is their responsibility to advise the crew of their new location.

In general, this works fairly well. It is our airline policy that check-in assigned seats must be occupied for take-off and landing, but I find that a brief word of explanation helps with compliance.

There is always one lone individual who ignores the PA, and decides that their personal needs are more important than complying with social courtesies. Quite apart from being selfish, these people are of course stupid - they believe that neither we, nor anybody else notices (we have an empty seat print-out). I take particular pleasure in turfing them out and back to their original seat, at high volume, thereby causing maximum embarrassment.

Tray Surfer
3rd Dec 2013, 16:51
I also remind them that if they have a special meal booked, an change seat, it is their responsibility to advise the crew of their new location.

Indeed TightSlot "Special Meal-Gate"... The following furore that follows when someone has moved 20 rows down the aircraft and expects us to know by telepathy that their special meal now needs to be delivered to a new location... Of course, it is my fault because I should know which, out of the 235 seats in D and E zone that person has moved to.

Out Of Trim
3rd Dec 2013, 17:13
As a Load Controller, I am quite perturbed that Cabin Crew sometimes allow this.

The Final Loadsheet on an allocated seating flight; uses the allocated seating distribution along with where baggage and cargo is loaded to calculate settings used for positioning the Stab Trim for Take Off.

The cabin crew and indeed these passengers that decide to move around the cabin without permission are changing the trim of the aircraft to that being set for take Off. On, many larger aircraft this effect may be neglidgeable.

However, they don't know if the aircraft may be close to trim limits already before anyone moves! Also on smaller aircraft a move by two or three passengers may well take the aircraft out of trim! :(

mad_jock
3rd Dec 2013, 17:56
out of trim the CC will allow them to move round in the trim zones but they won't let them move trim zones without talking to the FD before departure.

A transfer across the cabin won't effect anything of course.

And even if they do move a zone it only takes 30 seconds to knock up a new trim sheet in the front to check it.

Hotel Tango
3rd Dec 2013, 18:00
And even if they do move a zone it only takes 30 seconds to knock up a new trim sheet in the front to check it.

Yes, as long as you have been made aware of the fact!

mad_jock
3rd Dec 2013, 18:19
They usually get told before boarding starts if they can spread them out or not. Usually led by how much baggage/freight is in the rear hold.

And most company's have a zone head count just to check people haven't moved if the aircraft has a problem with being trim sensitive.

So you would get a bit of paper with the aircraft and zones depicted and the number of seats full in each zone. Then you just check that you have the required number in each zone.

A lot of load controllers just take what's given and if its inside the envelope they release it. Where as crew want the weight further back. So tell the CC to chuck a few to the rear trim zone. Each type will have a rule of thumb with what movement causes what amount of index change.

wowzz
4th Dec 2013, 12:38
Tightslot - seems a sensible approach, but not one that I have come across before, not having had the pleasure of flying with your particular company.
I was really only referring to moving across an aisle rather than back or forwards 20 rows, which, as has been stated, is not going to affect the trim of a wide-bodied aircraft.

Out Of Trim
4th Dec 2013, 19:31
Mad Jock,

I'm well aware most airlines have good procedures in place to brief Cabin Crews what cabin moves may be allowed, however the OP's experience in that 8 passengers that had rear cabin zone seats swapped them to forward cabin zone seats is quite a trim change!

However, if this change is communicated and approved by the flight deck crew then all is well. :O

This Load Contoller aims to get the aircraft as near as possible to optimum trim by blocking seats if necessary and adjusting the Baggage and cargo loading to suit if possible. However, this work is sometime undone by check-in unblocking some of the seats to please passengers requests etc. :{

Octopussy2
5th Dec 2013, 10:40
On a recent short KLM flight, we were told that we should stay in our designated seats until the seatbelt signs were off, and that if we wanted to move after that, we needed to check with cc first, for trim reasons.

Two or three people completely ignored these instructions (worrying when the express reason given relates to safety - that level of ignorance/arrogance disturbs me) and were sent back to their original seats VERY loudly by the cc.

mad_jock
5th Dec 2013, 11:15
OoT it depends on the aircraft type. If its a rear engine type and essentially empty the FD will have told the crew they don't care.

And its good to see a committed load controller that takes pride in their work.

As Octopussy gives a good example people are led by what they have seen in the past. So for me personally I think there should be an industry standard not to allow it.

RevMan2
5th Dec 2013, 11:29
@Tightslot. I was wondering about the logic behind the requirement to return to the original seat - wouldn't be a trim issue given your high load factors and the negligible longitudinal and lateral displacement, no longer a catering issue.
FA offered me 36H (from 37H) recently vacated by a lady who had moved to 36G. She was insistent in "wishing to comply with the regulations" and reclaim her seat. FA smiled in knowing sort-of way....

mad_jock
5th Dec 2013, 12:29
There is two trim envelopes for the aircraft. One airborne and one for takeoff and landing. The takeoff and landing is the most critical.

If the weight is to far forward you will run out of elevator authority in the fare. And if its to far back the plane gets dangerously twitchy in pitch.

The to far rear is the dangerous one because it is when the aircraft becomes unstable and you can't control it. Front heavy the aircraft becomes more stable until you run out of elevator.