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GrumpyOldFart
2nd Dec 2013, 15:27
Danger – health warning.

The following is a tirade, and may not be suitable for those of a nervous or huggy-fluffy disposition. If you do not like tirades, it is suggested that you should not read it, and you should move along to the next post.
---

This is an open letter to all politicans and civil servants, to all staff at retail stores, to all those braying wannabeamericans at local commercial radio stations and, particularly, to all those sanctimonious oh-so-politically-correct on-air pr1cks at the Canadian Broadcorping Castration:

Just look at me. I’m what’s known as a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (albeit a little lapsed). I don’t wear a hijab, a kebab, a taxicab or even a feckin’ sherbet dab. Neither do I wear a yarmulke or dreadlocks. I respect the two-thousand-year-old culture of both the country of my birth and of my chosen country, and I celebrate Christmas. If you don’t, that’s fine too - nobody’s stopping you doing your own thing. Just don’t try and shove other festivals down my throat. (Of course, if you don’t celebrate Christmas, maybe you shouldn’t be taking December25th off work, either…)

But whatever else you do, remember this. If you wish me ‘Happy Holidays’ or ‘Season’s Greetings’ you’d better be prepared for me to act towards you in a remarkably un-Christian manner.



There. That's better. Gotta go now - it's time for my medication.

Shack37
2nd Dec 2013, 15:33
Feliz Navidad........OK

Captivep
2nd Dec 2013, 15:59
Nadolig Llawen

Tankertrashnav
2nd Dec 2013, 16:06
с Рождеством!

eastern wiseguy
2nd Dec 2013, 16:25
The celebration of Christmas was first introduced by the Roman pagans. They would celebrate the birthday of the son-god Mithra, a pagan deity, on the 25th of December. The day was changed by Christians to Christmas so as to convert the Roman pagans to Christianity.

happy Mithras day......you Aussie curmudgeon, Bear:ok:

obgraham
2nd Dec 2013, 16:30
Here we go again with the old "pagans did it first" folks.

I'm with you, Coe. Merry Christmas!

BenThere
2nd Dec 2013, 16:37
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of the baby Jesus. No one, as far as I know, is required to observe it.

Those of us who revere Christian values, ethics, and the family traditions Christmas brings to us are quite happy to continue our celebrations.

If you don't wish to share our determination to give ourselves this seasonal joy, bugger off, but please don't interfere with our happiness.

Loki
2nd Dec 2013, 16:43
Have a good Yule!

hailstone
2nd Dec 2013, 16:46
http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj500/Hail_stone/Christmas01.jpg

DX Wombat
2nd Dec 2013, 16:49
Frohe Weihnachtszeit!

eastern wiseguy
2nd Dec 2013, 16:51
Ben There celebrate whatever you like. I am going to celebrate a cosy time at home with friends and family......I couldn't care what is at the bottom of it....so long as there is quality time in front of the fire and a few wee snorts of Laphraoig involved .

May your god(s) go with you:). :ok:

G&T ice n slice
2nd Dec 2013, 16:55
Happy Hogswatch

may the Hogfather bring you a fine array of pork-based comestibles

OFSO
2nd Dec 2013, 17:08
If you wish me ‘Happy Holidays’ or ‘Season’s Greetings’...

Quite right too, Jerry. I also would like to release a withering show of brown smelly substances on those unmitigated f*ckwits who refer to my "partner" when speaking of my wife.

For me and all my family it's Happy Christmas even though we are celebrating the birth of a Jewish zealot and freedom fighter who wasn't even born on December 25th.

Solid Rust Twotter
2nd Dec 2013, 17:08
Mmmmmmbacon...!:ok:

Krystal n chips
2nd Dec 2013, 17:12
" Those of us who revere Christian values, ethics, and the family traditions "


Erm, about this sudden reverence of Christian values and ethics you mention above.

I am not sure as to whether irony or hypocrisy would be the most suitable term here, based on your views of another faith.

Neither do I like Christmas and the Christmas / New Year period in case you were wondering, due to the sheer hypocrisy and commercial exploitation of the period.

Lonewolf_50
2nd Dec 2013, 17:46
"The pagans" thing is a deliberate misapplication of history, but ...

There was considerable debate among the early church fathers regarding whether or not Christians ought to celebrate the birthday of Jesus, since Easter is really the big holiday/mass for Christians. IIRC, Origen and some others (before St Augustine, certainly) seem to have been against this idea.

Kings the world over more or less forced their subjects to celebrate their birthdays, or at least declared a national feast day for the sake of their own birthdays.

Some of the early church leadership considered this a poor example to apply to Christ since he was not an earthly king.

Eventually, the consensus evolved to declare a mass (and IIRC a feast day) celebrate the Nativity of Jesus.
EDIT:
A few points from an OK summary in the much lamented source of wikipedia ... (Looks like I was right about Origen, but he wasn't alone ...)
In 245, Origen of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen_of_Alexandria), writing about Leviticus 12:1–8 (http://tools.wmflabs.org/bibleversefinder/bibleversefinder.php?book=%20Leviticus&verse=12:1–8&src=ESV), commented that Scripture mentions only sinners as celebrating their birthdays, namely Pharaoh, who then had his chief baker hanged and
Herod, who then had John the Baptist beheaded, and mentions saints as
cursing the day of their birth, namely Jeremiah and Job

In 303, Arnobius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnobius) ridiculed the idea of celebrating the birthdays of gods, a passage cited as evidence that Arnobius was unaware of any nativity celebration. Since Christmas does not celebrate Christ's birth "as God" but "as man", this is not evidence against Christmas being a feast at this time.

The fact the Donatists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatist) of North Africa celebrated Christmas may indicate that the feast was established by the time that church was created in 311.

Many popular customs associated with Christmas developed independently of the commemoration of Jesus' birth, with certain elements having origins in pre-Christian festivals that were celebrated around the winter solstice by pagan populations who were later converted to Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization).

These elements, including the Yule log (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule_log) from Yule and gift giving from Saturnalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia), became syncretized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism) into Christmas over the centuries.

The prevailing atmosphere of Christmas has also continually evolved since the holiday's inception, ranging from a sometimes raucous, drunken, carnival (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival)-like state in the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) to a tamer family-oriented and children-centered theme introduced in a 19th-century reformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Reformation_into_the_19th_century).

Additionally, the celebration of Christmas was banned on more than one
occasion within certain Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism) groups, such as the Puritans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritans), due to concerns that it was too pagan or unbiblical.

mikedreamer787
2nd Dec 2013, 18:01
Xmas is a good enough excuse for a feed, pissup and
getting prezzies from people who otherwise don't give
a day to day crap about you. Nothing wrong with that
even if one doesn't believe in any deity (or sets/subsets
of deities).

As for the OP's post, despite my atheism, I agree. Tell
those bloody floorbashing headbangers and other freaks
to go take a running jump back to the camel dung-ridden
shitholes from whence they came. Do NOT let Canada go
the same way as the UK has, which has long surrendered
its cultural sovereignty.

Dash8driver1312
2nd Dec 2013, 18:08
I love self-declared Christians who are so vehement against others. It, uh, actually does go against pretty much every parable that Jeshua ben Jusuf taught his brothers.

If someone wants to wish me well in his own sect/non-affiliated/personal way, I am content. The message is what counts, not having others pay lip service to my own bizarre ways.

I guess you object to my family having our Christmas dinner on or around the second week of December due to our multiple work commitments as well...

BenThere
2nd Dec 2013, 18:09
Ok, wait a minute, Krystal.

I like the Christian values of forgiveness, love one another, redemption, and so much more. Christianity is the hope of mankind, though I, a confessed sinner, do not practice it formally. A well meaning neutral person should have no argument with the basis of Christian values. They are good on their face.

What is your problem with that, Krystal?

eastern wiseguy
2nd Dec 2013, 18:54
Ahhhh the typical Christmas........family tearing lumps out of each other....have an egg nog and chill.:ok:

toffeez
2nd Dec 2013, 18:58
Feliz Ano !

Let no-one dare contradict me.

G&T ice n slice
2nd Dec 2013, 19:05
I think you missed the ~ out

toffeez
2nd Dec 2013, 19:11
A$$ehole, I said don't contradict me.

Lonewolf_50
2nd Dec 2013, 19:44
Reality check for self rightous old gits.......Whatever your version of what Christmas should be, in 2013 Christmas is actually about shopping and consuming even more than than you usualy do
Maybe for you, but it isn't for me, and hasn't been since the kids hit their early teens. My wife and I get into "the reason for the season" and usually end up at numerous local charitable feed the hungry deals. We like that a lot better.

Yes, we still give one another presents (you can see it as imitation of the great gift given to us all in the birth of the Saviour) but we have made an effort to focus on the reason, and it's made our Christmas experience much, much better. I used to be such a scrooge, and focused on the negative crap you pointed to there. Changed my attitude, and it made my Christmas better.

Merry Christmas to you all, or Happy Christmas, or Feliz Navidad, or whatever.

If you drink a few Christmas spirits, so much the better! :ok:

rgbrock1
2nd Dec 2013, 19:48
My feelings on Christmas? (Not that anyone asked.)

http://thedailyelephant.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/dead-santa.jpg

Windy Militant
2nd Dec 2013, 22:27
Remember all that good will to men stuff when you're doing your Christmas shopping.

"If I could work my will," said Scrooge indignantly, "Every idiot who goes about with 'Merry Christmas' on his lips, should be boiled with his own pudding, and buried with a stake of holly through his heart. He should!"

Man after my own heart was Ebenezer, and as Santa said to the fairy when she asked him what to do with the tree you can shove the whole false jollity, rampant consumerism in the same place, trailer trashy lights and nodding reindeer and all:p
Christmas is a pain in the arse - YouTube

Tankertrashnav
2nd Dec 2013, 22:41
Let's get back to the true spirit of Christmas

Tom Lehrer - A Christmas Carol - YouTube

Krystal n chips
3rd Dec 2013, 04:25
Ben there......

Thanks for asking the question and I will be delighted to respond of course,

I don't have any problem with understanding your passion for Christian values......selective moralistic hypocrisy has long been a staple " in the name of the Lord".

Of course, if you are seeking redemption here on Earth, then a quick immersion in a river would indeed save your soul although if you have sinned to a great extent, then possibly a more protracted immersion would be beneficial.

Here's some music which summates Christmas perfectly,

Emerson, Lake & Palmer I Believe In Father Christmas - YouTube

Ancient Mariner
3rd Dec 2013, 05:54
In Norway we are lucky, we have never called this season Christmas. We call it Jul, or as you spell it Yul.
So in my family's traditional manner we will celebrate the Yule blot by over eating and drinking and falling over, on skis and skates. I am however frantically growing a white beard since I will impersonate a Nisse (the original figure, not Disney's cartoonish Santa Claus) for 85 kids in my wife's kindergarten. Highlight of the year, enough hugs to suffocate a whale.
God Jul!

PS The one and only Christmas Spirit is Line Akevitt and it must have passed equator at least twice.

Worrals in the wilds
3rd Dec 2013, 07:17
Remember all that good will to men stuff when you're doing your Christmas shopping.
Particularly wrt the poor staff, who are often working massive overtime while dealing with all manner of rude, selfish gits who treat retail workers as a handy verbal punching bag for their own issues :ouch:. If the Furbys all sold out (or whatever this year's unmissable toy is :bored:) it's not because the salesperson planned it that way just to annoy you.

Also, they've had to listen to a constant loop of badly sung Christmas carols since mid October...:uhoh:

Happy Christmas to all who care. If you don't then surely it's no big drama. Happy Whatever to you when the time comes around. :ok:

Alloa Akbar
3rd Dec 2013, 07:54
Neither do I like Christmas and the Christmas / New Year period in case you were wondering, due to the sheer hypocrisy and commercial exploitation of the period

Oh this load of tosh gets rolled out every year by the grumpies.. KnC - You portray yourself as a man of high moral fibre and intellect, so I find it unfathomable that given the statement above, you allow yourself to be affected by these mindless commercial robots who have hijacked your enjoyment of this special time.. You could always ignore the fcukers, celebrate Christmas as you prefer to, and make yourself happy.. You miserable bstard! :p

Blacksheep
3rd Dec 2013, 09:33
"The pagans" thing is a deliberate misapplication of history, but ...

There was considerable debate among the early church fathers regarding whether or not Christians ought to celebrate the birthday of Jesus, since Easter is really the big holiday/mass for Christians. As per The Bible, as translated from the approved Latin version, the annunciation took place in the sixth month - that is to say, August (renamed to honour Caesar, who was a self-proclaimed God).

Assuming that gestation resulting from a miraculous virgin insemination follows the same incubation as a normal gestation, the actual birth would have taken place in May - too close to the commemoration of the death and rising of Jesus at Easter (a name derived from 'egg' and borrowed from the original pagan spring festival) for yet another celebration.

Of course a miraculous gestation may only take four months in which case the birth would have been in the Tenth month - December. Replacing the pagan mid-winter festivities with a nice Christian festival, Jesus's birthday must have been a pretty irresistable substitution.

Whatever the origin of Christmas, it is still only the third day of Advent and much too early for the annual festival of excess and overindulgence to begin - starting the mid-winter festival too early risks making the Gods angry.

Beware :uhoh:

Oh, and Happy Hogswatch, may the Wise One be with you.

OFSO
3rd Dec 2013, 09:45
Lets start listing favourite hates which happen at Christmas.

I absolutely LOATHE that stupid song about the Little Drummer Boy. I only have to hear the chorus "rap-a-rat-tum, up my bum" or whatever it is, to run shrieking out of the room in the direction of wherever bottles of strong likker are stored.....

tony draper
3rd Dec 2013, 09:57
Maeshowe Sunset 29th December 2012 - YouTube

Blackgate
3rd Dec 2013, 10:47
I used to enjoy singing the "drumming" accompaniment to "The Little Drummer Boy" when the Operatic Society I belonged to sang carols - it's not easy to keep the beat regular and not speed up....
The "carol" that has this :yuk: effect on me is "Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas" :yuk: :yuk: usually sung at Dirge speed - and why must I have a merry "little" Christmas, why not a Merry BIG Christmas?

rgbrock1
3rd Dec 2013, 13:51
Ancient wrote:

In Norway we are lucky, we have never called this season Christmas. We call it Jul, or as you spell it Yul.

PAGAN!!!!

Ancient Mariner
3rd Dec 2013, 14:02
Indeed I am, Rgbrock, I am indeed. Odin and Tor are much nearer to my heart than any substitutes imported from the Middle East. They favour drinking, eating, figthing and sex, in no particular order. My kind of Gods, my kind of festivities.
Per

Lonewolf_50
3rd Dec 2013, 14:03
Blacksheep, is your position that the Annunciation and Impregnation are at the same time? As I understand that bit, the angel told her how it was going to go down ... and she decided she was good with all that. No mention that they had a cigarette afterwards, so I don't see the two necessarily juxtaposed. May need to dig about in the rest of the Gospels to see how things match up.

FWIW, I'll point out that the sixth month of Saint Elizabeth's pregnancy with John The Baptist is the oft-cited juxtaposition in scripture. Iraneaus seems to have matched that up with a time in spring near to Passover or the Equinox ...

The Annunciation ... According to Luke 1:26 (http://tools.wmflabs.org/bibleversefinder/bibleversefinder.php?book=%20Luke&verse=1:26&src=9), the Annunciation occurred "in the sixth month" of Elizabeth's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_(Biblical_person)) pregnancy with John the Baptist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist). Irenaeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus) (c.130-202) of Lyon regarded the conception of Jesus as 25 March coinciding with the Passion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_(Christianity)).

Are you confusing the assumption with the annunciation?

The Solemnity of the Assumption of Mary is celebrated each year on the 15th of August. (I seem to recall that it is a holiday in Italy and some other nominally Catholic lands, even to this day ... )

The Assumption is when Mary is said to have been raised up, body and soul, into Heaven as was her son Jesus ... but that's another matter for another time, like Easter.

rgbrock1
3rd Dec 2013, 14:11
Ancient,

I didn't call you a PAGAN in a bad way. :O As a self-professed Pantheist myself I have an affinity for things Pagan!

Blacksheep
3rd Dec 2013, 14:31
Lonewolf_50 I write only from long distant memory of "Religious Instruction" Lessons at Stockton Church of England Grammar School and preparation for Confirmation, so I may be mistaken. My objective is to point out that such matters as the absorption of pre-existing festivals into the Christian calendar was, objectively, irresistable to the early church so as to suppress the attraction of previous religions, as it became the 'established' faith.

Most ancient festivals were actually arranged around significant stages in the agricultural world in which our forefathers were immersed - the equinoxes and solstices being particularly significant to such folk.

Spring planting, Mid-summer, Autumn harvest, Mid-winter solstice etc. all run through many eons of human existance, though with different names. What's in a name when it comes to a general celebration, feast and party time?

I certainly fnd it disconcerting that Christmas celebrations have already begun - we now spend nearly 10% of our year engaged in what has become this orgy of self indulgence and waste.

Lonewolf_50
3rd Dec 2013, 16:24
Blacksheep: point by point:
My objective is to point out that such matters as the absorption of
pre-existing festivals into the Christian calendar was, objectively, irresistable to the early church so as to suppress the attraction of previous
religions, as it became the 'established' faith.
Indeed, syncretism began as early as Peter and Paul getting into whether or not first generation Christians must or must not have their manhood trim, whether or not one may eat pork, etc, so festivals built into the circular scheme of time (eternal seasons that come again and again) would naturally blend in, given the flexibilty the first generation of Church leaders adopted. Given that the Liturgical year is a cyclical beast, as with the seasonal calendar that well predates any "arrow of time" method of reckoning time, it would have been a surprise not to see a fit. The Passover is likewise built around the vernal equinox ...
What's in a name when it comes to a general celebration, feast and party time?
In the case of the Mass dedicated to the Nativity of Christ, which reaches back into pre-Constantine Christianity, the decision to mark the coming of the Savior adds something beyond agricultural/pastoral consideration to the feast day, or the season (see 12 days of Christmas, as an ancient Christian tradition holds the celebration to be on 06 January, Epihpany ... ect and so on).
I certainly fnd it disconcerting that Christmas celebrations have already begun - we now spend nearly 10% of our year engaged in what has become this orgy of self indulgence and waste.
I utterly agree on the problem with self indulgence as being contra the intent of the Advent season (allegedly a season of prayer, fasting, and anticipation of the Lord's coming and celebration, and as such a cousin to the more austere Lenten season in purpose) but I don't think that the gift giving need be a waste.

Can be, though, and sadly is probably too often the case.

We seem to be in violent agreement. :ok:

Happy Christmas, one way or another. :cool:

rgbrock1
3rd Dec 2013, 16:43
LW50 wrote:

syncretism

WTF? That word is way too complimicated for this former Infantryman. Reading that word caused:

http://asmallvictory.net/archives/explodehead.jpg

Thanks LW. 'preciate it.

Lonewolf_50
3rd Dec 2013, 17:53
I'm here for you, RG, whenever you need such internal combustion events. :}

Ancient Mariner
3rd Dec 2013, 18:55
Rgbrock, it wasn't received in a bad way either. How can being a pagan be when one consider the alternatives?
Per

rgbrock1
3rd Dec 2013, 19:16
Ancient:

Exactly. So off I go to decorate our pine tree, decorating with lights, candles, skulls, crossbones and figurines of men and women in sexual positions. :ok:

Ancient Mariner
3rd Dec 2013, 19:28
Sounds like a plan. I'll take some pictures of our cottage's Yule tide decorations next time we're up there. SWMBO is not pleased, mean it's good.
Per

radeng
3rd Dec 2013, 20:05
For me Christmas doesn't start until 1500 GMT Xmas eve with the service from King's College, Cambridge. Xmas spirit is Courvoisier VSOP or Lagavullin, depending on time of day..........

radeng
3rd Dec 2013, 21:25
Eastern wise guy,

A civilised physical discussion about the relative superiorities of Laphraoig and Lagavullin is indicated if ever we could manage such an event.......My feeling is that it would be a VERY difficult choice which would take many hours of concentrated research to attempt to come to a conclusion.....

I presume that you also would be prepared to make the necessary self sacrifice to attempt to clarify the situation.......

Because this is in the interests of science, of course, ppruners would contribute to the necessary fund to pay for it........

Shack37
3rd Dec 2013, 22:35
Sod all this philosophising.............Eguberri

10Watt
3rd Dec 2013, 23:37
Jerry, alas you don`t have two thousand years.

Christians do, Muslims a third of that.

Radeng, l feel as though l`m surfacing. A fisherman on the bottle, .......

can`t spell it .... pronounced Bunna harven. Laverly stuff.

Ogre
4th Dec 2013, 01:20
Being of a Pictish/Northern Celtic background, Christmas was something for the kiddies to enjoy while the grown ups looked forward to New Year (either on the 1st of January or more properly the "old" New year on the 8th of Jan).

So Happy Hogmanay when it comes!

Blacksheep
4th Dec 2013, 12:27
Happy Christmas, Lonewolf_50 :ok:

Capot
4th Dec 2013, 12:34
10Watt

There was a time when the only real way to the Bunnahabhain
distillery on the North Eastern tip of the Island was by sea. Men, like
the Helmsman on our bottle, would risk their lives battling the elements to
bring barley for the whisky. There are many tales to tell and many welcoming
expressions of Bunnahabhain to tell them over.

Sounds good, I must try it.