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Seldomfitforpurpose
27th Nov 2013, 08:22
Under the guidance quoted by NICE in this article the drive seems to be toward making hospitals total non smoking area.

BBC News - NHS told to stop turning 'blind eye' to smoking (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25101420)

Whilst I am a firm supporter of the current societal 'take it outside' policy the idea of what is suggested in this article seems to me to be extremely unfair.

Lightning Mate
27th Nov 2013, 09:24
Perhaps they should ban doctors from drinking - totally.

500N
27th Nov 2013, 09:38
Maybe they should make hospitals drug free ;)


Stop helping them out of beds to go for a smoke. They tried that with me here
so I did it myself !!!

Worrals in the wilds
27th Nov 2013, 09:48
500N, I hope you weren't one of the patients standing on the main road in their pyjamas with a drip in one hand and a ciggie in the other? :eek:

Since the hospitals here banned smoking on their property the bus shelter on Ipswich Road out the front of the PA Hospital looks like something out of a zombie apocalypse movie. Some of the people there look like they just got out of surgery...:ouch:

I can understand the principle behind the idea (smoking doesn't help you to good health) but in practice, from what I see it's resulted in a lot of people who shouldn't be wandering around main roads doing so, just so they can have a smoke. I think a small, designated outdoor area within the hospital grounds would be safer and more realistic, particularly for older people who grew up with smoking as a normal thing.

500N
27th Nov 2013, 09:51
"500N, I hope you weren't one of the patients standing on the main road in their pyjamas with a drip in one hand and a ciggie in the other? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif"

Almost.

First floor balcony and the drip was on one of those stand with wheels !!!

And I think I only had a gown on, no pj's ;) :O

Lightning Mate
27th Nov 2013, 09:53
....the drip was on one of those stand with wheels !!!

I've got one of those at home - filled with a single malt!

Worrals in the wilds
27th Nov 2013, 10:00
And I think I only had a gown on, no pj's http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gifJust as I thought, then. :}

One of my mad great aunts (I had several) was an expert at covert hospital smoking. Despite being technically bed-ridden, during her many stints due to a serious back injury she managed to cover the ceiling smoke detectors with cling wrap (apparently by standing on the bed :suspect:), figured out that the shower didn't have detectors so you could puff away and breathe the smoke into the steam vent, observed that fire escapes don't have smoke detectors (though one of the staff eventually noticed that the door was regularly wedged open with a fluffy slipper :uhoh:), opened the non-opening windows by charming a key out of one of the maintenance guys and basically demonstrated a latent talent for subterfuge that would have helped her in a career as an excellent spy/jewel thief. :E

I think the challenge kept her going. :}

ExXB
27th Nov 2013, 10:47
Methings a certain amount of media hype here.

Why not help someone quit, while they are in a hospital? I'd say the chances of success would be very high in that environment.

Nobody really wants to smoke, and to help them off their addiction is a very good thing.

Non Sequitur Comic Strip, October 25, 2013 on GoComics.com (http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2013/10/25#.UpXcNaVM6f0)

pvmw
27th Nov 2013, 11:04
Nobody really wants to smoke, and to help them off their addiction is a very good thing.

Ah, there speaks one of the righteous. I have a couple of mates, a married couple - one a geriatric nurse and the other a medical secretary. Both smoke. Both, upon interrogation and despite my known disapproval, insist that they do it because they enjoy it and have no intention of stopping. Your statement is simply not true.

Oh, and by the way I'm an avid non-smoker, dislike the smell of stale tobacco intensely - but also do not believe it is the right of the Government or anyone else to order our lives in minute detail. My friends don't smoke in my house, 'cos they know I wouldn't like it - but they are inclined to pop outside several times of an evening.

27mm
27th Nov 2013, 11:06
Walking through King's Lynn high street the other day, I spied a fat lady on one of those electric trolley things; she had an oxygen line in each nostril and a fag in her hand..... :ugh:

tony draper
27th Nov 2013, 11:13
Yer, kill all the fat folks.:E

Wingswinger
27th Nov 2013, 11:14
While they're at it they should get tougher on the obese.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
27th Nov 2013, 11:31
The NHS senior management are continually trying to find 'rules' to ban smoking around hospitals, whilst being totally unwilling to face the fact that no rules work unless they are enforced by effective sanctions.
What, in practice, are hospital staff supposed to do?
The classic, as Worrals points out and I have witnessed myself recently, is someone in their care in pyjamas, with a drip, standing under the front entrance shelter smoking.
Send them 10/30 metres away? They get rained on and they catch cold in their weakened state?
Fight them for the cigarette?
Send them home and ban them from further care?

I'm open to suggestions, but at the moment there are no effective sanctions, and the smokers and the hospital staff know it.
Senior management are the problem.

ExRAFRadar
27th Nov 2013, 11:37
Worrals mate, how bad was her back if she could do all that ?

SawMan
27th Nov 2013, 11:49
I was that one once in the US. No smoking in the building, which included the driveway, so there I was- post-op recovering from appendix removal, in nothing but a hospital gown with my IV bag on a stand, telling the people walking up that they really shouldn't be there when the hospital forced patients to expose themselves to pneumonia-inducing weather like this. A security guard walks up and asks me to stop telling the people this, so I tell him to show me the regulations which prohibit it....of course he can't for there were none, so I asked if I could smoke across the driveway out of the weather in which case I'd be quiet. Nope, he couldn't allow that...so I kept on chasing their patients away verbally (and about ten followed my advice- guess they didn't need a hospital anyway...)

Now the local Hospitals have a "No smoking anywhere on our grounds" rule. Seemingly good, what it's doing is causing people to smoke in unsafe places instead of causing them to not smoke at all. And the subsidies application for the private insurance all US citizens are being required to carry now asks only one non-income related question: "Do you smoke?" I admit that it's not a good thing to do but I smoke and it is legal so while I will be courteous and civilized about it (personal standards) I am not going to follow anyone's rules about it unless it pertains to safety. I have sneaked a puff in the airliner's loo (just one and out with all smoke inhaled so as to not set off the alarms) once when it was either that or go crazy, but that's about the worst I've done. If I go back to the hospital I'm going to have my smoke in my room's loo similarly whether they like it or not since they permit me no other safe option. It is them who are being unreasonable even though their intentions are laudable...so I will react accordingly. By law they cannot throw me out until treatment is complete and by law they cannot seize my personal property (ciggies and lighter) so there!

I wish I could kick these things but I can't. I doubt they will cause my death with all my other medical problems so whether or not I smoke seems irrelevant so long as I do it safely and courteously, which I do. I say either make it fully illegal or make it be reasonably accommodated by law, the current half-baked ideas on smoking do not and will not work.

ExXB
27th Nov 2013, 12:02
No, people smoke because they are addicted. Any suggestion that they 'enjoy' it is just bla bla bla. Perhaps when the are 12 or 13 they feel cool but adults are hooked. I know, I was one.

Why give all that money (and it isn't inexpensive) to the tobacco companies, and to the treasurer, just to inhale smoke? Nobody, other than addicts, would do that.

Help people with their addictions - don't send them outside, help them stay inside, where it's nice and warm.

pvmw
27th Nov 2013, 13:00
No, people smoke because they are addicted. Any suggestion that they 'enjoy' it is just bla bla bla
You simply don't get it. Some people actually LIKE the sensation that smoking gives them and have no desire to give up. I don't doubt that there is a degree of addiction, but your assumption that all smokers are doing it under duress and secretly wish they didn't is false. As a non-smoker myself I have had this conversation with them, and they have desire to try stopping or cutting down.

They both recognise the hazards, and have made the decision as adults in charge of their own destiny that the pleasure it gives them outweighs the risk. Perhaps if you were less proletysizing and actually tried a meaningful discussion with some smokers you might realise this - but I suspect if you are an ex-smoker yourself there is rather more "preaching" than "listening". As is often said with reason, there is nothing less tolerant than a convert. I don't smoke, but I don't assume the right to tell others how they must live.

ExXB
27th Nov 2013, 13:00
Did I condemn anyone?

I feel the same about anyone with an addiction. Be it to heroin or tobacco. You don't beat them up or throw them in jail - you help them overcome their addiction.

Methinks you protest too much.

Smeagol
27th Nov 2013, 13:19
Fox3 above seems to say it all.

Many smokers might like to give up and hospitals should encourage this as part of a treatment programme, but pvmw has a very valid point, many smokers enjoy the activity and have no wish to desist.

I understand both viewpoints as an ex-smoker.

I smoked for some 50 years before deciding it was time to quit and then stopped overnight, but the point was I wanted to!

(6 years on the wagon now)

pvmw
27th Nov 2013, 13:59
Methinks you protest too much.
My protest is against the nanny state that thinks it knows what is best for us and how we should all behave. Smoking is just one example of the interference of the state and of "those who know best" into the private lives of adults who should be left to make their own decisions.

We all have interests, addictions (possibly) and activities of which others won't approve. I decry smoking, but do not wish to see the state interfere with those who do - with the one caveat that their addiction/pleasure, call it what you will, should not inconvenience or harm others. For that reason, I fully supported the idea that pubs should become non-smoking - but was happy to accept that if the pub wished to provide a separate room/bar where smokers could congregate and partake then that was their choice.

One day, someone might just decide that an activity which you enjoy should be discouraged/banned. There are plenty of possibilities. Riding motorbikes, fishing, horse racing are all activities with their detractors - and some people (usually of the left) like nothing better than a cause.

mikedreamer787
27th Nov 2013, 14:13
Nobody really wants to smoke, and to help them
off their addiction is a very good thing.

Horseshit.

You'll only succeed in giving up smoking when you
WANT to and not because you feel you should, nor
because a damn government agency says you should,
and nor because some pain in the arse anti-smoking
nazi (or nazi group) tries to intimidate you into giving
it up.

I smoked for years then one day I said nope I don't
wanna do this any more and just like that I quit cold
turkey. Easy peasy japanesy when its something you
truly want to do. The cravings drop off very quickly
after a few days.

If you find it hard to give up the durries it means deep
down you really don't want to. I admit that's a bit of a
subjective opinion but I reckon its true for most.

vee-tail-1
27th Nov 2013, 14:25
I have sneaked a puff in the airliner's loo
Well that says it all. Your addiction and your 'right' to feed your addiction, is more important than anyone else's right to health, and in the case of an airliner right to life. :\

rgbrock1
27th Nov 2013, 14:34
When is the NHS going to "get tough" on fat asses? They cost just as much as smokers do, if not more.

rgbrock1
27th Nov 2013, 14:37
mikedreamer:

Spot on! :ok: Which is why I smoke: I want to smoke. Plain and simple. If I didn't want to smoke anymore, I wouldn't.

Now, as for the fatties: can you stop eating? Hmmm?

Tankertrashnav
27th Nov 2013, 15:06
I used to smoke because I enjoyed it.

Now I dont smoke because I dont enjoy it any more.

Maybe I am an exception but I guess I was never addicted because I never had any difficulty giving up. However I can certainly relate to people who do find it hard, as I compare their difficulties with my own fairly futile attempts to lose weight, due entirely to lack of willpower on my own part.

I'd say to the NHS let the smokers have a drag somewhere - after all with the eye watering taxes they pay (in the UK) they are probably paying for half of your salaries!

Lightning Mate
27th Nov 2013, 15:15
...and what about the binge drinkers who are incapable of looking after their children ?

Who are the bigger menaces, them or smokers.

500N
27th Nov 2013, 15:23
Good to see quite a few defending the rights of smokers and a few smokers
speaking up.

Most smokers, myself included don't mind not smoking in someone's home,
in some, I repeat some public places but it's like it has become a goal to ban it everywhere outside your own home. It's getting beyond a joke.

I do like the comparisons to druggies, drinkers, fatties etc :ok:

This is sooooooo true :ok: pvmw :D

"One day, someone might just decide that an activity which you enjoy should be discouraged/banned. There are plenty of possibilities. Riding motorbikes, fishing, horse racing are all activities with their detractors - and some people (usually of the left) like nothing better than a cause."

Loose rivets
27th Nov 2013, 15:59
They both recognise the hazards, and have made the decision as adults in charge of their own destiny that the pleasure it gives them outweighs the risk.


As if it was as simple as that. It's not just a risk of suddenly being diagnosed with the big C, it's the gradual decline into emphysema and all the other side effects of the addiction. They are horrible - bordering on nightmarish sometimes.

As one who carried oxygen bottles and other paraphernalia for one's mother . . . for years, it really brought it home just how long the sentence can be once the punishing slew of symptoms become chronic. In a lot of cases, a quick end would be a mercy.

In my mother's case it ruined thirty years of her life. Basically, all her long retirement. The last 15 were without cigarettes, my protestations and indeed threats having finally added to the burden of nebulizers and oxygen. It was too late, the damage was done. A simple soul who didn't know better? No way. On her last day at age 93, she was surrounded by medical books which she had taken out from the library, and correctly diagnosed her ailment - one which had nothing to do with smoking.

Some of the grotesque detritus left behind in doorways is often sickening, and any right minded person will cajole, berate, commit crimes if need be, to stop people smoking. The smokers may think it's their right, but it affects too many people for it to be that simple, since very few of them will smoke until the last day without being a burden to loved ones or state.

air pig
27th Nov 2013, 16:11
If you got rid of smoking, how would the NHS survive without all that tax and it pays my NHS pension each month.

No, I don't smoke, but do drink and enjoy the occasional pork pie or two. I have never 'attacked' a patient about stopping smoking, people know and if they don't know the risks they are thicker than whale sperm, the risks of their habit. Treat people as adults not children.

Hospitals may one day find themselves in court if a patient dies by the need for a tobacco fix in an unsafe environment. imagine if the patient fell over banged their head and died of a brain haemorrhage or an I/V line became disconnected and they had an air embolism. That the hospital did not provide a place of safety to indulge their habit/addiction, could be seen as a breech of Section 3 of the 1974 Health and Safety at Work Act That the employer, is responsible for the health safety and welfare of all those on their property who are not employees. This could be a lawyers beenfeast for years.

axefurabz
27th Nov 2013, 19:17
Why not help someone quit, while they are in a hospital? I'd say the chances of success would be very high in that environment.Things are probably different in the Confoederatio Helvetica but in this neck of the UK most people going into hospital are overjoyed to leave said place with fewer infections than they arrived with. Add-ons of any sort just don't exist.

"One day, someone might just decide that an activity which you enjoy should be discouraged/banned. There are plenty of possibilities. Riding motorbikes, fishing, horse racing are all activities with their detractors - and some people (usually of the left) like nothing better than a cause." They just better steer clear of onanism.

500N
27th Nov 2013, 19:25
"most people going into hospital are overjoyed to leave said place with fewer infections than they arrived with."

That is becoming a serious issue across the world and smoking pales into
insignificance compared to this issue.

And while we are at it, what about Doctors killing patients :O

rgbrock1
27th Nov 2013, 19:34
500N wrote

And while we are at it, what about Doctors killing patients

And not to forget patients who kill their doctors. :}

500N
27th Nov 2013, 19:35
Well that is sometimes justified :}

603DX
27th Nov 2013, 22:08
And while we are at it, what about Doctors killing patients
The docs who kill patients by their inexperience, incompetence, risky procedures and the like will probably always be with us, hopefully a relatively small percentage. An even smaller proportion of serial patient-killers are the rogue doctors, of which rare breed we in the UK have had at least two that I can think of.

Another type who badly transgress their reputed oath-swearing to "do no harm" is represented by that folk hero of a million T-shirts, Ernesto "Che" Guevara. Trained as a doctor in his home country of Argentina, he hardly practised his chosen calling, but spent the remainder of his life interfering in the politics of a number of other countries, taking part in guerrilla warfare and killing when he felt like it. His eventual death in Bolivia was almost self-inflicted, in that it would not have occurred had he practised the healing he was trained for, rather than trying to overthrow the governments of other people's countries.

angels
27th Nov 2013, 22:09
I was fortunate enough to be withdrawn from nicotine addiction while in the arms of Morpheus after my bypass (hereditary disease, not lifestyle related). After I was let of out hospital the mere thought of coughing with a ribcage that had just been hewn in two and then tied up with wire was too painful to contemplate. Thus I gave up.

I still miss smoking, but accept it's a bit daft to pay multi-national firms to kill me. If I was diagnosed with some fatal disease tomorrow I would start smoking again if the condition allowed it.

These hospitals want to ban smokers and yet tolerate bloody great vending machines on their premises full of cans of drink with eight tablespoons of sugar in them and crisps that have been saturated in fat for a time and then packed for lard-arses to eat. I was just in hospital yesterday and they've added another one where I was!

Worrals in the wilds
28th Nov 2013, 01:03
And the cafés full of hot chips and massive slices of cake.

Worrals mate, how bad was her back if she could do all that ?
We also wondered that :suspect:, but she was on some massive painkillers; the sort they don't usually let you have any more.

500N
28th Nov 2013, 01:11
Worrals

The drive for Nicotine would make people do things never thought possible.

She would have made a Special Ops soldier :ok:

Out Of Trim
28th Nov 2013, 01:13
Yeah! and Kill all the wee skinny little shits! :suspect:

Worrals in the wilds
28th Nov 2013, 01:19
They'll be the first to starve when the apocalypse comes. :}

She certainly was tenacious about it. When she finally went to a nursing home they gave her a room with a door out to the smoking courtyard. I don't see a problem with that in an aged care facility; she and many others grew up with smoking being as common place as drinking water and acceptable everywhere.

While I don't think we should return to that, I think we have to bear it in mind wrt the oldies and provide somewhere safe and out of other people's airspace. They all started their habits when it was the done thing.

500N
28th Nov 2013, 01:34
I was watching a WWII film the other day (BoB), and the lovely lady tried to light a ciggy after an air raid, then you had the pilots puffing away.

Well, when you had a life expectancy of maybe a few weeks at best,
smoking was the least of your worries.

As you say, they started when it was the done thing.

Krystal n chips
28th Nov 2013, 03:59
" Walking through King's Lynn high street the other day, I spied a fat lady on one of those electric trolley things; she had an oxygen line in each nostril and a fag in her hand".


Possibly related to a Nav. who did something very similar on a Herc one day....alas, not a happy ending I seem to recall.

ArthurR
20th Dec 2013, 08:30
There is NO clear link between passive smoking and lung cancer, scientists claim | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2526495/No-clear-link-passive-smoking-lung-cancer-scientists-claim.html)