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Loose rivets
23rd Nov 2013, 04:10
ob, ginge and others, does this sound reasonable?

Here to reach the biggest audience. If it's outdated, or just plain wrong, say so and I'll delete the thread.


https://www.evernote.com/shard/s283/sh/b49d0649-fe98-49a1-94de-8305402fcbd0/aee41700c06abf059d1883616f1abc77

mixture
23rd Nov 2013, 04:35
Not a doctor but.....

"They say if you email this to ten people...."

Hmm .. where have I heard this sort of thing before. Ah yes, the very sort of thing you should not forward to ten people !

obgraham
23rd Nov 2013, 05:16
I'm not big on these chain e-mail health advisories.

visibility3miles
23rd Nov 2013, 05:30
I've heard of the first three steps before. The fourth makes sense: if part of half your brain isn't working, you probably can't control your tongue muscles to make it straight.

Often a stroke victim will have half their face sag.

Besides, Snopes says it's true:
snopes.com: Three Simple Tests to Detect a Stroke (http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/stroke.asp)
:ok:

Stroke-Treatment Overview (http://www.webmd.com/stroke/guide/stroke-treatment-overview)
Initial treatment for a stroke happens in the hospital. The sooner you get treatment, the better. The worst damage from a stroke often occurs within the first few hours. The faster you receive treatment, the less damage will occur.

In the hospital
Your treatment will depend on whether the stroke is caused by a blood clot (ischemic) or by bleeding in the brain (hemorrhagic). Treatment focuses on restoring blood flow for an ischemic stroke or controlling bleeding for a hemorrhagic stroke.

Before starting treatment, your doctor will use a computed tomography (CT) scan or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of your head to diagnose the type of stroke you've had.

CharlieOneSix
23rd Nov 2013, 08:26
The main stroke symptoms can be remembered with the word FAST: Face-Arms-Speech-Time.


Face the face may have dropped on one side, the person may not be able to smile or their mouth or eye may have drooped
Arms the person with suspected stroke may not be able to lift one or both arms and keep them there because of arm weakness or numbness
Speech their speech may be slurred or garbled, or the person may not be able to talk at all despite appearing to be awake
Time it is time to dial 999 (UK) immediately if you see any of these signs or symptoms

UniFoxOs
23rd Nov 2013, 08:33
Sine the tongue muscles are in the same vicinity as the smile muscles they will probalbly be seeing the same loss of flow, therefore this extra test is redundant as the blood reduction will already have been shown by the "S" bit of the original three.

Any doc care to confirm or deny this?

obgraham
23rd Nov 2013, 17:52
Any doc care to confirm or deny this? Facial muscles and tongue muscles are innervated by different cranial nerves (7th vs. 12th)

You're trying to oversimplify what can be a very complicated neurological exam.

alisoncc
23rd Nov 2013, 21:45
Few are aware that there is something you can do almost instantaneously if you suspect a stroke. This can be done whilst waiting for an ambulance to wend it's way slowly through all the traffic.

Take a level teaspoon of cayenne pepper in a cup of tepid water, mix well and drink. Cayenne pepper dilates the blood vessels and speeds the metabolism due to the high amounts of Capsaicin it contains. Capsaicin increases circulation and blood flow to all major organs which facilitates oxygen and nutrient delivery. It is one of the most powerful vasodilators known, and not only is it inherently safe but often readily available in many households. If there are people susceptible to strokes in the house then keeping cayenne pepper in the pantry is well worth while.

Quoting from Wikipedia:
Vasodilation refers to the widening of blood vessels. It results from relaxation of smooth muscle cells within the vessel walls, in particular in the large veins, large arteries, and smaller arterioles. When blood vessels dilate, the flow of blood is increased due to a decrease in vascular resistance. Therefore, dilation of arterial blood vessels (mainly the arterioles) decreases blood pressure.

mixture
23rd Nov 2013, 23:10
Take a level teaspoon of cayenne pepper in a cup of tepid water, mix well and drink. <and more drivel here>

I rather suspect that instead of following stupid internet old-wives-tales, the ambulance crew would much rather you start CPR IMMEDIATELY and make use of an AED if one is readily accessible.

jetset lady
23rd Nov 2013, 23:22
I rather suspect that instead of following stupid internet old-wives-tales, the ambulance crew would much rather you start CPR IMMEDIATELY and make use of an AED if one is readily accessible.

If the patient is conscious and breathing normally, which they would need to be to be able to drink any type of liquid, then I don't think they would.... :rolleyes:

(That's not to say I know anything of the effectiveness or otherwise of cayenne pepper though.)

MarcK
23rd Nov 2013, 23:31
Take a level teaspoon of cayenne pepper in a cup of tepid water, mix well and drink.
and if you had a hemorrhagic stroke you will soon be dead. Diagnosis in the field is problematic.

Paracab
23rd Nov 2013, 23:39
Some serious cobblers being spouted here.

Before you attempt to encourage vasodilation, please rule out a hemorrhagic stroke. With your non-existent portable scanner that you take everywhere with you.

If you think someone has suffered stroke, drop the amateur full neuro exam.

Just call for help and let the
professionals do the work.

Cacophonix
23rd Nov 2013, 23:51
cayenne pepper


Could raise your BP which may kill you.

Seek assistance from a suitably trained medical professional and don't trust the internet or e-mails...

Caco

alisoncc
24th Nov 2013, 00:38
People are very rarely in the right place at the right time when they choose to have a stroke. Obviously there is a preference here is to sit and twiddle your thumbs, whilst waiting for the professionals to arrive, meanwhile watching the person die. For most if there is anything they can do to help, then my belief is they should go for it.

Sure if the stroke victim is sitting in A & E dept of a hospital then don't dash out to the corner shop for some cayenne pepper. BUT if you are miles away from any professional help that is going to be some considerable time arriving, and you do have some cayenne in the house then... Even if it doesn't help, it is unlikely to cause any extra harm to someone who may be minutes from death.

PS. I am speaking from personal experience. A few months back I was diagnosed with congestive heart failure. My BP late one night was 210/115 and I live alone. Tried the cayenne pepper thing and within minutes my BP was down to 165/94. I could have been dead by time an ambulance arrived, and doing CPR on myself wasn't an option.

Cacophonix
24th Nov 2013, 00:49
Sure if the stroke victim is sitting in A & E dept of a hospital then don't dash out to the corner shop for some cayenne pepper. BUT if you are miles away from any professional help that is going to be some considerable time arriving, and you do have some cayenne in the house then... Even if it doesn't help, it is unlikely to cause any extra harm to someone who may be minutes from death.

In such circumstances you might as well just keep them calm, give them an aspirin (which depending on the stroke type might also kill them). Shit as a strokee, I'd favour a large glass of red wine. At least I'd die happy (or drool happily for the rest of my days).

What a depressing thread!

Caco

gruntie
24th Nov 2013, 08:18
In that case...............

It's a medical fact that, in females, two glasses of wine increases the chances of a stroke.
But, if she has the whole bottle then she might suck it as well.

And before anyone moans, yes, I have had one. The second stroke started in the A&E on arrival and was halted, immediately, by me coughing. I then went to sleep (!): during that time 2 people arrived opposite me: one was DOA (or shortly after) and the other a vegetable.

The only thing to do is joke about it and move on. Thinking about it is not an option.

arcniz
24th Nov 2013, 15:44
IMHO


Just stop ingesting any kind of fat that doesn't remain a liquid when sitting on your kitchen counter on a cold winter night. Not much to stroke with, if sludge aint solidifying in yer pipes. It's never too early, nor too late to try, at least.

Doing penance mit krill oil, or pricier cold sea animal food like salmon, & olive oil & vino or regular saunas likely will de-sludge yer liver and other micropipes some..perhaps enough to remove the critical delta of circulatory muck hoarded inside your tubes from prior decades. Might give one the option to die of something quicker and neater, if one heeds the options for revival before yer lights are noticeably flickering..

UniFoxOs
24th Nov 2013, 16:03
Facial muscles and tongue muscles are innervated by different cranial nerves (7th vs. 12th)

I suspected that, I was wondering whether those nerves were fed from the same (potentially) blocked blood supply. If not then I would like to add the extra check to my (hopefully never to be used) stroke response. If it is the same blood supply to both then I don't want the extra check taking up time and potentially confusing the situation.

Cheers,
UFO

JWP1938
25th Nov 2013, 14:50
I have only read this thread very quickly so may have missed something but, as an AED (defibrillator) trained First Aider, I can say you wouldn't use an AED or CPR for a stroke - only if the patient was unconcious and not breathing. Even then, if there was NO heart activity at all the AED would just instruct you to perform CPR. Many people think an AED kick starts the heart. Not so - it actually STOPS the heart giving it a chance to "reboot" and hopefully restore a normal rhythm. However, a stroke (generally) is nothing to do with a heart problem as stated above.

gingernut
25th Nov 2013, 22:24
Interesting concept, I currently use F.A.S.T.and these... Stroke and TIA - NICE CKS (http://cks.nice.org.uk/stroke-and-tia#!diagnosissub)

not sure about a wonky tongue, memory tells me I should test it when testing the cranial nerves...predictor for TIA/stroke ? Best asking a neurologist :-)

Loose rivets
26th Nov 2013, 01:03
Sage advice from an amateur? I suppose the best is, don't for fcuk's sake confuse someone having a stroke with some other soul who's pi$$ed. Can't be a more cruel mistake.


This Cayenne thing. Interesting, because it would seem if it really did dilate the vessels in the brain* it would be a win-win situation. Blockage: Possible bypass and temporary relief. Bleed: Possible reduction of BP and less flow from a damaged vessel. But, there's the * thing.

*The Blood-Brain barrier is an incredible piece of human evolution/design. Take your pick. It can be bypassed via the hippocampus but that's seriously complex stuff. For the most part, it is very difficult to deliver chemistry past the walls of the brain's blood vessels. However, we're considering the vessels themselves so I'm not at all sure what would happen.

In the case of classical migraine, the worst part in terms of pain is during the dilation phase. It is my personal hypothesis that the dilation is due to the brain pouring in a 'dilator' as a matter of urgency - having sensed constriction. This in turn having been due to psychological side-affects.

It's a model that works, but the suffering remains unresolved, and it is horrifying to witness. Now, a frightening fact: "More people die of migraine related stroke in the US, than of gunshot wounds." I suspect they pop off at some considerable age, or there would be more published about it. Anyway, you may see where this is going.

If the vessels could be dilated, there may be an argument for doing just this. Personally, I don't have a clue about the science where strokes are concerned, but I'm convinced that if we could detect the constriction phase of classical migraine, and dilate before the brain squirts in its own dilator, we might save horrendous suffering of that significant percentage who's lives are being ruined, and who knows, considerably reduce the number of stroke victims at the same time.

AtomKraft
26th Nov 2013, 04:11
My BP is always a bit marginal at me medical.

Do you think if I scooped some cayenne pepper just before setting off for the quacks, it might do the trick?

Or cause me to drop down deed?:uhoh:

obgraham
26th Nov 2013, 04:22
I don't know, AtomKraft, but I recommend you take along an extra large roll of bogpaper and a local anesthetic cream.

alisoncc
26th Nov 2013, 06:35
"More people die of migraine related stroke in the US, than of gunshot wounds."
Used to get quite bad migraines. After acquiring an Omron BP unit I was surprised to find my migraines coincided with high systolic pressure, and equally surprising was that after using cayenne pepper the migraine went away.

I seriously think that some migraines are Brain Aneurysms before they burst. If a migraine is particularly bad, then in all probability some kind of immediate action is required. The capsaicin in cayenne pepper could save someones life.

AtomKraft
26th Nov 2013, 09:11
Thanks obgraham.:ok:

I hadn't considered the inevitable 'side effects'. :ooh:

Still, a relatively localised price to pay, for a no hassle medical?

Paracab
26th Nov 2013, 20:57
Loose Rivets,

Nice idea but you there is not enough space in the cranium to lose enough blood to cause hypotension. You'd be long dead before then and you would still not get anywhere near it. Simply impossible.

AngioJet
26th Nov 2013, 21:56
It's interesting you should mention migraines, as those are thought to be caused by intracerebral vasodilatation rather than vasospasm. Hence, sumatriptan (a 5-hydroxitryptamin receptor antagonist) is often effective in staving off a migraine attack as it causes vasoconstriction in the cerebral circulation. It would be interesting to see whether capsaicin does indeed contribute to cerebral vasodilatation in vivo, and if so, its effect on your migraines would seem quite paradoxical.

As for the 'new stroke symptom', better be safe and stick to the old FAST mnemonic. There are so many 'self-help' things being circulated online and a lot of them (albeit not every single one of course) are complete rubbish. A bit like that 'cough if you're having a heart attack'-thingy really...

waldopepper42
26th Nov 2013, 22:28
Choose any old wives tale you like but, in addition, this one often really does improve the victims chances:

Just follow the following 5 steps:




1. The instant you suspect you, or someone near you, is having a stroke (post #5 is probably as good as any in this respect), grab a phone.

2. With the phone in your hand (either hand will do), locate the "9" button.*

3. Press it three (3) times.*

4. Tell the nice person who answers of your suspicion and that you would like an ambulance, if they would be so kind.

5. Tell them that you would like it NOW!

* I am led to believe that, outside the UK there are variations on this fable, but once learned will work equally well.


:E. :E. :E

Loose rivets
27th Nov 2013, 04:24
Yeh, well good luck with that one.

I've told the story more than a few times of being required to have an address to be dying at. Nothing would make this bimbo of a woman in Swansea accept the detailed description of the B road I was on. When finally my wife was on the case, she was told they were out to lunch. Too silly.


Nice idea but you there is not enough space in the cranium to lose enough blood to cause hypotension. You'd be long dead before then and you would still not get anywhere near it. Simply impossible.

Not sure I understand this. In fact, I'm sure I don't. If the pressure in an hydraulic system is reduced it will affect all parts of that system. If a localized area is causing the constriction, then relief there will normalize the whole. Probably.


It's interesting you should mention migraines, as those are thought to be caused by intracerebral vasodilatation rather than vasospasm.

Woh!!!! Just hold your horses. It is probable, and indeed required, if my hypothesis is valid, that the initial stages of migraine are brought about by constriction. Deep underlying worry, or a more serious deep-rooted stress causes the fist stages.

There is almost no doubt that the sufferer is undergoing some perceived harm, probably subconsciously, and it is at about this time some processing somewhere takes it upon itself to go into protective mode.

Migraineurs often know hours - or even days in advance, if they are likely to suffer an episode. Often, the same type of symptoms occur at the same time of day for several days. Then the big one hits. It's often said the attack seems to be 'setting itself up.'

I'm reasonably convinced the brain's protective systems start to constrict the vessels - a life-saving reaction to trauma - and it is the brain's secondary action against this over, or unneeded constriction that causes the dilation. It is an emergency procedure to stop the anti-trauma procedure causing damage by going too far and cutting off the oxygen supply.

To sum up: One part of the brain tries to save itself, and then another part protects itself from the over reaction.

I'm intrigued by the idea these spices may cause a dilation that saves more of the natural dilator being introduced. I think it may well be that some early reaction can take place, but there is still time to get the spices in to stop more of this very unpleasant hormone being squirted in naturally. That may stop being produced the moment the vessels dilate and stop the blindness, loss of touch, and thundering headache that perhaps comes with the brain's natural dilator.

So many things fit, but as yet, it is not good science.

NB Over the years I've avoided mentioning the connection between migraine and strokes. Heaven knows, the sufferer has enough to contend with already. But this is a thread about strokes, and perhaps better forearmed with knowledge rather than having it hidden away.
















.

CharlieOneSix
27th Nov 2013, 09:45
Yeh, well good luck with that one.

I've told the story more than a few times of being required to have an address to be dying at. Nothing would make this bimbo of a woman in Swansea accept the detailed description of the B road I was on.

I have a free app on my Android phone called iPostcode. It shows the nearest postcodes to your location and your distance from them, provided you have GPS reception of course. A friend of mine found it useful having broken down in the middle of nowhere on a minor road and just gave the postcode to the breakdown people for entering in their Sat Nav. Would be equally useful in a roadside medical emergency.

Mike6567
27th Nov 2013, 10:30
I once called 999 when on the M11 after hitting a lump of concrete. As soon as I spoke they said "You must be phoning about the lump of concrete on the M11"
After this I always thought they could locate your position when calling from a mobile phone. However on think about it I think this must be incorrect so will get this Post Code App.

alisoncc
27th Nov 2013, 15:34
1. The instant you suspect you, or someone near you, is having a stroke (post #5 is probably as good as any in this respect), grab a phone.
.......
4. Tell the nice person who answers of your suspicion and that you would like an ambulance, if they would be so kind.


I use VOIP for all my phone calls. No landline or mobile as such. Three times in the last four years I have needed to make an emergency call, and on each and every occasion I have had to "argue" with the person the other end as to my bona fides. So waldopepper42 it is not as simple as you try to make out.

waldopepper42
27th Nov 2013, 16:45
Calm down guys. :O

My only point was that whatever else you do, the first thing is (to at least try) to summon professional help.

I know it's not always that easy, last year when my mother had a stroke, I called 999 and the paramedic was there within 5 mins but the ambulance took 45 minutes. Less than 2 miles from the ambulance station.

No offence intended.

Edited to say, nevertheless, under the same circumstances, I would still call the ambulance as a first priority.

Blues&twos
27th Nov 2013, 18:52
I'm not entirely sure why we'd need a "new" symptom for stroke when the existing ones are quite good.

Don't bugger about with home-grown and dubious 'remedies'. This is a medical emergency. Get your casualty safe (i.e. able to continue to breathe) and get an ambulance rolling.

mixture
27th Nov 2013, 20:09
Three times in the last four years I have needed to make an emergency call, and on each and every occasion I have had to "argue" with the person the other end as to my bona fides.

Talk to your VoIP provider. They should have a facility that enables you to update them with your present location and hence enable them to provide the emergency services with the correct location.

Otherwise, just use your mobile phone. At least then they'll definitely know they'll need to get the address from you. :ok: