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Thomas coupling
22nd Nov 2013, 22:05
It would be difficult if not impossible NOT to see or hear about this lately over on this side of the pond.
I saw a documentary about a week ago which was based on recently released documents from the Secret Service to the American public.
A jorno or detective (can't remember - they're all the same) has spent the last 18yrs of his life forensically analysing the shooting because he says the results prior to these SS papers indicate it was a stray bullet from the A15 automatic in the hands of the trailing SS car immediately behind Kennedy. I have to say - the documentary was very convincing for the following reason:
He has ascertained for several years that the first bullet ricochet'd (?) of the road and shrapnel from this hit Kennedy in the right arm. This is where he tells his wife: "I've been hit". The governor sitting in front of him thus turns to his right just as the 2nd bullet hits Kennedy in the back of the neck exits below the adams apple, enters the governors back down his arm and buries itself 2cm into the dash.
Now the juicy bit:
The jorno goes onto state that ALL the evidence made available to Joe public substantiates that the trajectory of both thes bullets could, in fact, have come from the 4th floor(?) as stated in history (IE: A downward trajectory tied in with this firing position).
BUT - the "Third Bullet" enters Kennedy's head in the LOWER right quadrant and exits in the top right - taking half his head off. The jorn contests that the trajectory could ONLY have come from behind and level with the President.

He suggests (using all the available evidence) that a SS man on hearing the shot(s) grabs his loaded A15 from the floor of the back seat of his trailing car, jumps up, flips the safety catch and whilst pivoting to look to his right falls back and fires the round off inadvertently straight into the bosses head!!! From then on in - it was a MASSIVE cover up by the field boss of the SS on scene.
1. ALL photos taken in the hospital were rounded up.
The body was flown out of Texas within minutes of the surgery being carried out (Illegal in Texas unless cleared by the Coroner).
The debris removed from the presidents head was removed.
There were 16 SS men on duty that day in the motorcade and only ONE to this day has been allowed to talk to the press???
The SS guy with the gun was sent on indefinite leave and was not allowed to talk to the press or the hearing??

The latest release of these papers - corroborate all of this.

And to cap it all yesterday - I saw the tail end of a news story on News @ Ten which showed a retired SS guy who jumped on the back of the limo the moment Kennedy was hit - and it shows him stopping the wife from falling out of the back of the car as she struggles to collect his remains from the boot lid.
He was explaining what happened that day and the fact that he left the SS shortly thereafter became a drunk and tried to kill himself because of what happened......and then at the very end of the clip I heard him say:

" I climbed onto the back of the car and saw that there was a hole in the lower section of his head which had exited in the top half of the front of his head"..........
whcih can only mean that the trajectory could only have come from the same level as by the time Kennedy had been hit by the 2nd bullet he had lent fwd a little while holding his throat (as shwon on the infamous TV clips).

My question is:

Why is NO-ONE picking up on this or trying to run with it? :confused::eek:

parabellum
22nd Nov 2013, 23:39
Well maybe, just maybe, the bullet did come from above, hit the armour plating of the car and then ricochetted up into Keneddy's head?

onetrack
23rd Nov 2013, 01:25
Kennedy's head was slumped forward after the first bullet hit him in the neck. That explains simply why the trajectory of the second bullet, that blew his brains out, appears odd.
Some people love making a huge scenario out of stuff that is trivial or easily explained, and large numbers of Americans are convinced there's a conspiracy in simple, ordinary events.

Matari
23rd Nov 2013, 02:13
Oswald was a fervent and admitted communist, who had spent time in Mexico City with Cuban officials immediately before the event. In spite of his well-known extremism, the CIA, FBI and Secret Service were focused on right wing threats and totally disregarded Oswald as a potential assassin.

When Kennedy was shot and Oswald apprehended, the FBI and CIA went into full bureaucratic cover-up mode, for theirs was a failure of monstrous proportions. The record shows they had enough on Oswald to at least treat him as a serious risk, but were fixated instead on right-wing opponents to Kennedy. Their bungling helped kill the president.

The bits of destroyed and missing evidence, the conflicting and gap-filled testimony were all brushed aside in the rush to complete the report. But it's now clear: modern forensics and ballistics are well understood; there was no magic bullet, and the evidence squarely points to one fanatical killer.

Ever since then, these missing pieces have spawned one conspiracy theory after another. Add to this leftist media's natural bias to avoid any hint of communist involvement, the made-for-Hollywood plot line of the mafia and a glamorous movie actress, and it's no wonder the public are confused.

Instead of grand conspiracies, this sad affair seems to be just another case of bungling bureaucrats, bare-knuckle turf wars, and cover-my-ass deceit.

All the above is not something I made up; it has been described in great detail in a couple of recent and well researched books.

11Fan
23rd Nov 2013, 02:41
All the above is not something I made up; it has been described in great detail in a couple of recent and well researched books.

Killing Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Kennedy)

I bought the audio version, read by the author. Amazing stuff that went on back then. More amazing the lack of press coverage of what was going on behind the scenes.

ruddman
23rd Nov 2013, 05:10
I believe the new theory. Much more convincing.

obgraham
23rd Nov 2013, 05:24
Some wacko was on all-night radio this week claiming he had incontrovertible proof that LBJ was the culprit. He had an elaborate plan cooked up to avoid being blamed, and it all went according to plan.

So which conspiracy am I supposed to believe?

It's like this baloney about the autopsy. All the details, photos, and sketches were published in JAMA some years ago. There's nothing new here.

PLovett
23rd Nov 2013, 05:29
Perhaps this was what you were looking at:

JFK: The Smoking Gun (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/527042-jfk-smoking-gun.html)

chuks
23rd Nov 2013, 07:49
So, where are the eyewitnesses to a Secret Service man shooting an AR-15, that day in Dallas?

We are, after all, discussing something that happened in broad daylight under the eyes of hundreds of spectators. I think that a man in a suit shooting a black rifle from a convertible in the presidential motorcade would have been noticed by more than a few people, yet there was no mention of this at the time. I would suggest that it simply did not happen, because it's not the sort of thing you can "cover up."

Thomas coupling
23rd Nov 2013, 11:45
Hey - don't shoot the messenger. The Smoking Gun documentary is the right one - thanks Plovet.

It is suggested that the only ones who saw the shot are the SS's colleagues right next to him - none were allowed to testify at the committee.
The public and 'others' who were subpoenaed testify to hearing a gun going off close to kennedy's car AND also the smell of cordite.

The surgeon who cleaned up Kennedy's wound collected tiny fragments of the 'hollow point' bullet when it entered his head. These fragments were all confiscated immediately he ended his surgery - by the field boss of the SS.

All three bullets were found. The 1st and 2nd were standard issue 6mm rounds which don't fragment on impact. The hole in kennedy's head at entry shows bullet 3 had a diameter of 6.25, consistent with an A15.

The committee summoned the SS to (a) testify and (b) show the gun that was standard issue in the following car - none were forthcoming and 2 weeks after the assassination ALL A15's were withdrawn from SS service.

15 of the best snipers in the US of A at that time were invited to fire off 3 rounds at a moving target travelling at 11mph from the same trajectory and for the same amount of exposure time before the cavalcade disappeared.
NONE got 3 rounds off and only marksman hit the target twice.

If you ever get the chance - watch The Smoking Gun and then decide. :suspect:

onetrack
23rd Nov 2013, 12:33
What imbecile actually believes that a bullet leaves a precise hole, of exactly the same diameter as the slug?? :rolleyes:

Human tissue expands and contracts, and a 6.5mm bullet can go through it and leave a 6.25mm hole - because the tissue can swell and reduce the hole diameter.

This Smoking Gun is just another attempt to cash in on the anniversary of an event that captures the attention of everyone. It's just a money-making exercise, without a shred of credibility when examined in detail.

The Smoking Gun can go into the same fantasy box as the imbecile who tries to make out that Connally actually assassinated JFK. :rolleyes:

Thomas coupling
23rd Nov 2013, 14:06
Onetrack the bullet went through his skull and then the tissue. The skull doesn't deform around the entry wound. Kennedy's skull area around the bullet entry point is/was available for checking at the time and the measurements have been recorded. This 3rd bullet is a different calibre to the other two.

The Smoking Gun event has been running for 18 years - I don't think he was cashing in on anything as (if you had seen the documentary) only recently has access been granted to CIA documentation to firm up his conclusions.

Goban: If you genuinely believe HLO was one of the best marksmen (possibly ) in the world. He was good but he wasn't exceptional.
If you believe he actually managed to get around all those layers of security beforehand and so position himself inside the inner security cordon..

If you then continue to believe he "forgot" to sweep up after himself regarding the rounds and empty shell cases littering the firing point.

If you believe he was allowed to actually sit it out up there right next to the route for possibly hours on end.

You are just another gullible member of the public who believes what they are told by the authorities.

What was it the 1978 Committee conclusion actually came out and said:

at the end of their hearings in 1978, they concluded that JFK was "likely assassinated as the result of a conspiracy." The committee did note, however, that the conspiracy did not include the governments of the United States or Cuba nor organized crime or any anti-Castro group but did not rule out individual members of either of those two groups acting alone or in concert with each other.

The whole thing stinks............................

Thomas coupling
23rd Nov 2013, 16:59
Gobona: The forensics was done for us on the documentary. :ugh:
The independent forensic expert showed that the 2nd bullet went straight thru the president AND the governor in front of him. Neat entry and exit hole.
The 3rd bullet (because it was a hollow point) exploded after entry and sprinkled his brain with lead before taking half the front of his head off. Watch and listen carefully.
How can this have happened from a rifle carrying the same calibre bullets?

All the lead debris was removed from inside his brain but immediately confiscated by the on site SS boss.

The bullet wasn't "high energy" it wasn't armour piercing it was a hollow point.

Watch the documentary............................:rolleyes:

fujii
23rd Nov 2013, 19:20
I think the the main culprits behind the assassination are the US TV networks who, when hearing about Dr Who being released by the BBC, quickly needed a show that would also last fifty years.

chuks
23rd Nov 2013, 19:45
Your Secret Service shooter pops up with an AR-15, clears the windshield of a big old Cadillac convertible without anyone seeing him raise his rifle, and puts one right in the bullseye without aiming, while looking over his shoulder in another direction entirely. That is your likely scenario?

I have some Florida real estate you might be interested in, or perhaps millions of dollars in a blocked account. Get in touch soonest, please.

perantau
23rd Nov 2013, 20:35
Thread drift...
SIA chose today to kill it's non-stop flight SIN-JFK.

PLovett
23rd Nov 2013, 21:09
Your Secret Service shooter pops up with an AR-15, clears the windshield of a big old Cadillac convertible without anyone seeing him raise his rifle, and puts one right in the bullseye without aiming, while looking over his shoulder in another direction entirely. That is your likely scenario?

chuks, you obviously didn't see the doco or read the book, "Mortal Error", that was the basis for the doco, otherwise you would know that the allegation is not that it was a deliberate shot but a negligent discharge. The agent was in the act of standing up to return fire towards the book depository when the vehicle in which he was travelling accelerated throwing him backwards, his finger was on the trigger, and the rest as they say, is history.

parabellum
23rd Nov 2013, 22:27
How can this have happened from a rifle carrying the same calibre bullets?

Easily. The third round was a ricochet, had deformed and took on the characteristics of a dum dum, as well as making a different size entry wound. Same calibre as bullets 1 and 2, just damaged.

tony draper
23rd Nov 2013, 22:53
The thing I found strange about that doc that Hickey chap wasn't one of the Secret Service in crowd, he was apparently low in the pecking order relegated to making sure the vehicles were washed polished oiled fueled and seeing the flags were hanging right,he was uninvited to the drinking and partying of the previous night yet he gets to sit in the front seat of the car following the Presidents vehicle?
Why would they go to so much trouble to save his ass from blame if it was him that f*cked up?
I suppose the reputation of the whole organization being in jeopardy would explain it.
:uhoh:

chuks
24th Nov 2013, 08:52
No, I did not see the documentary; I had to sort out my sock drawer instead.

Not to be boring and anorakky, but an AR-15 fires a round that has a bullet diameter of 5.56 millimetres, .223 inches. Not even close to 6 or 6.5 mm., that. So the bullet from the Secret Service man's rifle hit something else on its way forward to JFK's bonce, but instead of shattering or being grossly deformed, it expanded to exactly 6.5 mm.? Also, this is the mystery bullet that nurse saw? No, I guess not, so that this makes a total of four bullets!

nomorecatering
24th Nov 2013, 09:18
JFK Assassination Part 1A - YouTube

It's over an hr long but very interesting.

For me, this is a very convincing analysis. 3 shooters, atop the Daltex building, aligned so that people would think the assassin was was in the 6th floor window of the book depository. He claims to prove it with mathematics.

Some interesting points though,

People when hearing a gun shot don't instinctively run towards where the sound came from. So there was no shooter on the grassy knoll.

An AR15 fired from a car close behind would have been very very noticeable to hundreds of witnesses.

The CIA seems to be an entity out of control, answering neither to the Congress or the President. Obama tried to get them to spill the beans on some of their activities and they basically tilled him to bugger off.

I have heard claims that some in the CIA wanted to eliminate Kennedy because he was trying to thaw the cold war with the Russians and was trying to stop the USA going into Vietnam.

PLovett
24th Nov 2013, 10:06
And still an allegation for which the publisher was sued, successfully. That suspicion over Hickey's year of death isn't going away.

Your still wrong GS. The publisher was sued (over the paperback edition - he was well out of time when he tried to sue over the original edition) and it was settled out of court with no admissions. The explanation given that it was cheaper to settle than to fight the case. The publication of the paperback edition still went ahead.

chuks, just to explain, the wound on the back of Kennedy's skull was measured at 6 mm. All pathologists will tell you, as will any cursory perusal of any book on forensic science regarding gunshot wounds, that a bullet leaves a slightly wider wound than its caliber. 5.56 mm would leave a wound, of say, about 6 mm. A 6.5 x 62 Mannlicher-Carcano round could NOT leave a 6 mm wound in a skull.

Mr D, no matter how insignificant a role Hickey played, can you imagine how it would have played out when it was revealed that a minor agent was given the gun because the rest of them had played up the night before and were hungover. He then has a negligent discharge, kills the guy they were supposedly protecting. I think the US Secret Service would have ended then and there as a functioning agency.

gileraguy
25th Nov 2013, 20:58
I find it interesting that Donoghue, the forensic firearms expert, was denied the opportunity to testify before the 1970's assassination commission.
Whilst his forensic expertise was accepted by many courts regarding negligent discharges of firearms, the commission sought to avoid his testimony, despite his multiple requests to testify, his submission of his theory to the commission and his attendance at the commission at the time.

RFK had a lot to lose by the accidental truth being revealed. Having his brother killed by a SS accident would hardly have allowed the maintenance of JFK subsequent deity status.

LBJ was quoted on numerous occasions stating that the SS was more dangerous to him than protective of him.

Finally, numerous witness, IN the motorcade stated they smelt gun smoke ALL the way to the hospital.
How does that work out when the wind was blowing in Oswald's face that day?

Lonewolf_50
25th Nov 2013, 21:18
It is my opinion that the obsession with the 1963 assassination of JFK is a terrible yawn. FFS, it was fifty years ago, GET OVER IT ALREADY!

Jack Ruby killing Oswald on live TV feed? That's awesome, if you are a TV executive, since it means Americans won't stop watching TV for a while after that since they aren't sure what shocking thing they'll see next.

TV has, I suppose, been going downhill ever since. :p

Ozzy
26th Nov 2013, 01:11
I have posted this already. This is the last time. I worked for the company that did the audio analysis of the tape that was recorded due to the broken "ON" mic on the Dallas Police motor bike.

They recreated the scene on Dealy Plaza. There were more than one shooter. Not naming people, just the science. Oh, the same company sells a product called Boomerang that is used to pinpoint snipers in a war zone...look it up.

Ozzy