Griffins In Akrotiri

[KPax]

Front page of the local rag details contract signing to provide 4 Griffin helo's to replace Wsx and Gazelle currently based in Cyprus. Contract will be run by FBH who are responsible for Shawbury contract. Paper describes a Helo that is, bigger, faster and can carry more than the Wsx. It will be interesting to see if 4 Griffins can do the job of both the Wsx and Gaz sqns in Cyprus.

P.S. Welcome 5, you will provide a respite from the 'Mighty Reds).

[BEagle]

The last time I saw 4 Griffins in Cyprus they were all attached to the same aeroplane. But we had an Air Force in those days.....

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Don't you mean the Merlin??

Weren't Griffins Spitfire engines? Come to that, so were Merlins.

[solotk]

He means shacklebombers............

That was back in the days of the Imperial Air Power Club

By the way, the Cypriot guy is looking to sell one of his, I think it's the one that almost flew, he has something like 20 40' containers of spares. Shame BAe won't release the design authority

Tony

[teeteringhead]

The Griffin is the military designation of the COMR (Contractor owned military registered) Bell 412 helos currently used by 60 (R) Sqn at RAF Shawbury and SARTU (SAR Trg Unit) at RAF Valley for advanced RAF helicopter training. The Cyprus ac will be supplied by the same contractors, but the unit (presumably still 84 Sqn??) will be 100% RAF manned. The 412 seems a good ac to take both the Wessex & Gazelle roles.

[rotor tree]

Griffin indeed a good aircraft. Lots of details to be finalised on the contract (apparently). There may be a split with 2 aircraft optimised for SAR (radar and fully coupled FCS, possibly even FLIR), and 2 in a more SH utility role. First ac is due in Cyprus on 1 Jan, with take over on 1 Apr. I hear the first ac is arriving at Redhill very shortly to begin the mods required. Strangely I understand that this has yet to be 'officially' announced!

[Dunhovrin]

Did somebody say Shackletons?

Well..When I Was On Shackletons I remember the time that...ngghh ummpphh aaarrrghh Stop IT!!!

Sorry about that chaps had a bit of a runaway up and had to go and beat myself. I nearly got nostalgic for a moment. But speaking of WIWOS - is the Lakeside still going down on the strip and are they still trying to sell Kokinelli when they couldn't give it away 20 years ago? BEagle - you seem like a man who would know these things...

[BEagle]

Yes indeed! Seems that people are actually paying for Kokinelli these days! "Full kebab - who halloumi, who liver?" now costs more than a fiver - the village is bigger than ever, Chris' is by no means the best kebab place but you get a deal on taxis! Nose-warmers with tahini, village salad, sheesh, sheftalia, racing chicken, halloumi and lountza......nothing much has changed in the last 30 years except the price - and Block 101 is still b£oody awful!

[solotk]

Was chuffed to bits to find a Curry Restaurant on Akrotiri when I was deployed there a couple of years back. Even more chuffed to find out the owner came from Birmingham, and had established his credentials, by having a restaurant on the Ladypool Road, prior to going to Cyprus. Blimmin good Curry too from what I can remember

Also found out that the tough American detachment, couldn't play Beach Volleyball to save their lives..........

Tony :0)

[bootscooter]

I've eaten twice at said Indian, and both times it tasted wonderful. Unfortunatly, (possibly just a coincidence) both times, I squirted for the full Albert flight home the next day. Not pretty.:eek:

[Dunhovrin]

And just to stay way off topic...Is Chris still behind the bar serving rip-off brandy sours by the jug? And is Mr George ("very good the gentlemen, thank you Mr Dunhovrin, Officers' Mess Number One") still in the dining room?

Ahhh nostalgia. And to think I hated being there at the time. Well having to work there anyway...Eye of toad, leg of newt, number three up the chute. Back to the block...!

[StopStart]

The Lakeside restaurant is all boarded up now I'm afraid.
Chris no longer runs the mess bar - for various reasons. Instead he now runs hire cars, taxis and restaurants. His son also runs riots.....

George is now chief bar meister at the OM.
Should you find yourself on 3hr standby there (working for Hezbollah Air Tours Ltd for example) may I recommend his new "Tasty, Refreshing Beverage"?
Alcohol free. Apart from the peach schnapps.......hmmm
Thank you George :rolleyes:

[KPax]

It may not have been 'officially announced', but the front page of the Forces Weekly newspaper seems to be about as official as you get out here, this includes quotes from various parties.

[Cyclic Hotline]

It's been common knowledge in the commercial side for quite some weeks now (hadn't really considered it was supposed to be secret!;))

In fact the engineering jobs for this contract have been posted on the Internet for about 3 weeks.

Want a 412 job? (http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/employer.asp?catID=8&page=2)

[Sloppy Link]

Another sunshine post is lost to the AAC, I would have thought that this would have been an ideal chance for JHC to show just how purple they are with the formation of a joint unit but then again, it was a Crab idea, Commanded by a Crab with the next boss a Crab so why am I surprised?

[nutmeg]

Sloppy,

Can't remember the AAC having a SAR capability!!!

[The English Passenger]

Sloppy Link

- JHC have been given the opportunity more than enough over the last 2 years to provide constructive input and support to the process as to the structure of the new unit at AKR. In the main they have been unhelpful, and sometimes downright obstructive. The attitude of JHC staff officers to 84 Sqn and the issues associated with it has always been "it's a SAR unit isn't it, that is 3 Gps problem".

Because of that and many other issues the decision was made that the unit would remain all RAF (the proposal to have a AAC exchange was still there for some time) as we now have enough ex-AAC guys who have crossed over to the RAF to provide someone with recce experience for the ex 16 Flt role that the Griffin will take over. Without being rude it is also a lot quicker and cheaper to train a SAR guy to hover at a couple of thousand feet and use electronic kit, than it is to teach SAR from scratch to pilots with no experience of that demanding role. The current plan is for the unit to have no input from JHC, it will take it's inputs from 3 Gp and SAR Force HQ from Apr 03 onwards.

It was not a crab idea, it was an MOD idea, the fact that 84 Sqn is commanded by a crab has nothing to do with it (it's an RAF Sqn, who should it be commanded by?). If you are referring to CBF, then he and his staffs were attempting to get the best capability they could for the island in terms of SAR/SH and C2 assets that they could, with the limited budget they were given for it by PJHQ. Personnally I think that in the face of huge obstacles put in the way by lots of people, the solution is the best Cyprus could have got from a COMR solution (in which there was no choice).

Therefore your post is not just ignorant, but devisive and pointless. If you have someone that you want to criticize about this decision, aim it at your AAC bretheren who did nothing to save the posts within the corridors of JHC (the previous OC 16 Flt spent a huge amount of effort trying to save 16 Flt, and trying to ensure AAC input on the new unit, with no support from JHC!). If you want JHC to be purple, try leading by example and not posting Army-centric threads criticizing everybody elses jointery.

Grow Up.

[Mike RO'Channel]

Well said, EP!

Back in yer box, then SL?:) :)

[Sloppy Link]

That'll be a reaction then! We do OK, still got Brunei (v.g.) and Belize (not so v.g.) doing.......remind me someone......Oh yes, liaison/troop lifts and....SAR! Byee.

[Cabe LeCutter]

Oy Passenger
You be talkin common sense, which is not allowed on this forum. Get off the fence and tell the gentleperson what you really think.

Head down, Look out for the flack

[Muff Coupling]

Mmm, nice to see a bit of banter for a change...

If I recall correctly, 412 option for Cyprus was common knowledge MAY 2001!!!

I hear from a Joint Helo Agency mate, that exchange option for the AAC is still on the table..could be an SNCO pilot or two in fact
:cool:

The AAC have been conducting SAR Ops in Brunei for many years with 212..they just dont take a year to train! Mainly, jungle SAR, but have a back up over water role to Shell mates at Anduki and Air Wing at Berakas. They are likley to have same remit when 212 goes to Belize next June.

Dont throw stones in a glasshouse....you dont always need a fat wellow canary to achieve the same mission:rolleyes:

[Red Sikorsky Bruv]

Muff,

Of course you don’t need a year to train for SAR – neither do I recall anyone writing that you did – and anyone with a decent hover probably can do SAR. The yellow canaries come in handy when the weather’s crap, the seas are big and the casualty needs a little space and care once you’ve recovered him. As you well know, yellow canary SAR is a little different from the sort of SAR you mention.

[Tiger_mate]

I have done a SAR job (on exchange) with a single casualty in dreadful weather in a 412EP equiped with weather radar* and it was more than capable. However more than 1 casualty would have been an effing nightmare due to lack of space.

The Dutch also seem to manage with a 412SP, but frankly a yellow canary is significantly better for the job in hand.

.........and I am not SAR by trade!!

SAR Boyz..........Yes we know, but I would not do it as a primary task.

*Embedded CBs, High ground, heavy rain, low cloudbase. Colour coded weather radar & No Nav beacons /radar coverage. Just GPS and weather radar.

[[email protected]]

Muff Coupling and Sloppy - are you really going to try and pretend that what the AAC does in Brunei is SAR? Sitting in a hover winching a broken pongo out of a jungle clearing is not exactly running the full spectrum of SAROPS - would the AAC like to do a night deck on a sinking boat at the extreme of range and recover a dozen people? Not a chance in hell. Would you like to describe the extensive winch operating and winchman training that AAC crews are given before operating in Brunei - no probably not as they are only taught the very basics of winch operating (there is no winchman) by a Bristows pilot!
Any clown can kneel in the door and winch in and out (me included) but providing a professional winch operator who can cope with all aspects of SAROPs takes a lot of training which is why we do it the way we do.
Try talking to someone who has got a medal for a SAR job in Brunei (PC at MW) for example and he will tell you how f***ing hard it is without specially trained crews.
As for Belize - the AAC managed to get the Pumas out by claiming they could do all the jobs there with a Gazelle. This was much cheaper and was therefore carried out by a cost conscious MOD. The problem was that single pilot, single engine NVG clearings were not a clever idea and Lynx had to be sent to do the job instead. The Lynx is many things but it is not a SAR aircraft (homers? winch? stretcher carrying?) so please don't pretend that the role is anything like SAR.
The ex AAC pilots who have joined the RAF and gone SAR have all come to realise that the SAR role is very demanding and requires an extensive level of knowledge and training that the AAC cannot match.
The only reason that the 212 is going to Belize is because the Lynx is too expensive to operate there. Do please feel free to get a tour there and try a night letdown to an overwater hover and then pick up an object in the water (without crashing). Then come back and regale us with tales of how easy SAR is.

[Sloppy Link]

That'll be another reaction then!
Those of you careful readers will note the original dig was regards the loss of a posting to the RAF with a cynical dig that JHC is in fact RAF and therefore are looking after themselves. Cross training a man to another type but same task is sensible. I would hazard a guess that SAR is as taxing in any of these places with perhaps the jungle offering it's own problems as Cyprus does it's own. Around Britains shores is a different kettle of fish and recognised. With regards to the AAC ability to achieve SAR, it is like anything, given the kit and training, I am sure it could be done.
Question: Why has the SAR task in Belize not been taken back by the RAF? Is this because Cyprus is closer or is it because Belize is a p** hole?
Finally, just to put Mr Crab back onto his podium and off his high horse, I do not recall either myself or Mr Muff saying that SAR was easy. If he wishes tales of derring do, we all have them to tell in some form or another.
Winching a broken pongo out of a jungle clearing is a facet of SAR so we must be doing (not pretending) something. Firing a mini gun from a Chinook is not armed action but it is action using arms. Accept it, SAR in all it's forms is not the exclusive preserve of the RAF, go on, giz us a go, I can do that! I want a posting to Cyprus!

[The English Passenger]

Sloppy Link,

Simple answer.... You want a job in Cyprus, apply to transfer to the RAF. it is the only way it will happen for the foreseeable future, and you will have more fun!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Sloppy Link]

I'm not that desperate to go to Cyprus but thanks for the offer.

[[email protected]]

Sloppy, the crab is not back in his box or off his high horse - as usual the AAC (which I presume you are a member of) chose to use this forum to have a go at the RAF. I have extensive experience in both camps and whilst there are some very professional aviators in the AAC, the majority of pilots, be they SNCOs or officers have a greatly over-inflated opinion of their own abilities. I have lost count of the times I have heard how an AAC Cpl pilot is the equal of a Flt Lt in terms of skill and professionalism and I have one word on that matter - boll8ks.
The input standard to training is lower (lower scores required on aptitude tests) the training itself, post DHFS, is vastly inferior (partly due to poor manning and terrible serviceability coupled with an urgent need to put bums on seats), the chop rate through training is low (because of the need to put bums on seats) and the number of flying hours available on the Sqns is pitiful (with the probable exception of 5 Regt). If you are given the right people, the right training and the right equipment you can be capable of operating in extreme environments but the AAC has few of the former, vague ideas about the second and none of the last (AH 64 might change things a bit but I won't hold my breath).

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Crab@etc,

I found your first paragraph unnecessarily hostile, and demeaning to the AAC operators in N Borneo.

I recently returned from Loan Service with the RBAirF (Air Wing? wossat?), and remember 2 occasions which may be of interest to you. The first, while I was out of country on leave, involved a nighttime callout 80nm+ N of Bandar. The Bruneian duty crew - a very SAR-uncurrent Blackhawk foursome - declared themselves unable to comply; probably quite rightly in view of the state of their training. The AAC at the other end accepted the task and carried it out successfully. Now, you can argue the merits or otherwise of night decks without coupled-everything and 20 hours training per month, but the fact is that they did it.

The other occasion was (yet another) army exped in trouble in Lowes Gully near Gg Kota Kinabalu, across the border in Sabah. Again, the AAC launched and effected a successful rescue not only of the original survivors but, I believe, of a couple of Central Europeans who were grateful of the extract but miffed at having to leave their kit behind.

Now, I agree that both undertakings may have been a lot easier and stress-less if the operators practised constantly for these tasks and little else. However, your dismissal of their skills without full knowledge of recent events is unacceptable to me.

Oh, and hovering over a jungle clearing in Temburong in the middle of a thunderstorm is easily as challenging as anything I ever did around the coasts of the UK...

Don't be so easily baited by the last line in Muff Cup's wind-up - he may be right when he says that a paraffin budgie isn't always necessary, but a more reasoned, less aggressively impetuous reply might get your message across better.

[Sloppy Link]

Mr Thud

An unexpected ally, thank you.

Mr Crab

I think that a reasoned reader will conclude that you have now got off your podium and back onto your high horse.

Your serve.

[Jeep]

Crab@somewhereotherthanSAAvn:

It cant be that hard, they let you do it mate. When are you going to change your nickname?

I had two lovely years at 16 Flt and it is a shame that the AAC will no longer be part of Athrodites Isle. Rumour has it that exchange posts were offered, but turned down by Wallop, just a rumour of course.

As to the AAC ability to conduct SAR? There is more than one way to peel an orange. As with most flying disciplines with the Brit rotary world, if you want the Gold plated version and you have taxpayers money to burn, go Crab. If you want the other end of the market, my own firm does a very good job, and great value for money. If you want a middle ground solution, then the fisheads are your men. Simple graph. Value for money on the Y scale and cost on the other. See where your X's lie. CBF clearly has a very big pot of dosh.

Imagine if they stopped the crabs going to cyprus though, where would they get sunshine and a rest away from NI? Not a bad thing to share it around i think. Create a few exchange posts and lets mix a bit more and then [email protected] can have another tour with us, as his love of the 'white van drivers of aviation' seems to have worn off.

[[email protected]]

All of which only goes to prove how easy it is to get a reaction when you post something contentious SL and Muff C - it's a rather childish pasttime isn't it?
No, I don't hate the AAC and no I don't denigrate the job that the guys in Brunei do - a SAROP is a SAROP wherever you do it, but I bet the blokes doing night decks wished they had had a chance to practise it before having to do it for real - they did well.
Jeep you are right, they do let me do it and chuffing hard work a lot of the night stuff is too. And I would have stayed at MW if they had let me drive the AH! If I change my nickname no-one will know who I am then I can write some really contentious stuff - great idea!

[KPax]

Now that 3 of the RAF's brand new three engined rotary has made it all the way to Akr, why not just throw a winch on them and replace the Wsx now. Oh I forgot that might not fit in with the contract.

[Muff Coupling]

Bloody hell Crab @SAAvn..if I had known you were going to bust a blood vessel on this thread I would have said something even more contentious!!

Sloppy, Jeep,Thud & Blunder & Red Sikorsky Bruv all make the same point..no-one (including me) ever said that any form of SAR was easy!!..and there are many ways to skin a cat..and the King is only one platform. Sadly, it is getting past its sell by date, hence the root of the thread..412 to Cyprus. Chill:cool:

[neilk]

Has anyone else noticed that if the crabs slag off Army Aviation it's reasoned debate but when the Army fight back or whinge about the sideways moving ones then the Army is being childish?.
It gets very tiring hearing about how top drawer RAF Pilots are but I would seriously question the sweeping statement Crab@ etc made reference the differring standards between the two service standards, it may well be now as he has had inside knowledge of these things over the last few years, but not always so nor will it always be, some of the most dangerous pilots I have ever met wore air force blue, and I mean dangerous in skill level v opinion of skill level which were not remotely compatible. Most Army aviators are sick of hearing how good you guys are, spend a bit of time practising being modest and people might respect some of you more!
Like you I do not hide my identity!
Respect for that at least!

[Tourist]

Just wondering if the crabs present are aware of the two busiest SAR Sqns in the UK. 771 and 819. Strangely enough the only two RN SAR Sqns. AND both have done it up to now as a secondary role. You crabs are just playing at it.:rolleyes:

[MG]

Good to see that JHC has got rid of all this pettiness. Three services, together years worth of tradition and minutes worth of tollerance. It really is this 'My Dad's bigger than yours' attitude that's driving me away from Pprune. I love banter, but this aint it. PLEASE play nicely!

[Oh I See]

MG

You are so right, however:

Tourist

Now you really do have to come up with some figures for that, ‘cuase they are published you know and you must read better stuff than I.

[keepin it in trim]

Tourist

Never worked with 771, have worked with 819 and have a high regard for the team there. Suggest you ask them what they think of their light blue colleagues SAR abilities, you might be surprised. In the mean time why don't you go get some winter, night mountain flying in and then tell us how easy you think that is before you start making childish comments about people" playing at it".

[Tourist]

Been on 771, Been on 819
Check the figures again:p
Incidentally, try night mountains on instruments. we cannot afford these NVG thingys:eek:

[keepin it in trim]

Tourist

Very well aware that what is now "SAR Flight" at Gannet do not have NVG, and I also know how happy they are about this, NOT! Also very familiar with the almost disastrous consequences of this last year, if you are who you say, you will know exactly what I am talking about. In my many years of working with colleagues from Gannet have never experienced this Us and Them attitude you seem to have.

You will also know that the number of jobs any unit does is not up to them but is simply down to the nearest unit being called by RCC, for many years I seem to remember Lossie was the busiest SAR unit. Busy does not necessarily mean best, or most demanding tasks, it can but the two things don't always go together. Some of the best SAR pilots and crews are based at "quiet" units.

One final point, as we all, navy and air force, work for the same Admiral, and maybe even more closely in the future, who's to say, you might want to get a little more "joint" about this. We are all a lot stronger when we work for each other, rather than against.

[[email protected]]

Well said, keeping it in trim.

[Dunhovrin]

Life of Brian..

"Comrades, we should all be fighting together!!"

"We ARE fighting together.."

Reminds me of NI 1993 when the AAC and RAF joined forces against the common enemy...The RN

[Murphy]

NeilK,

Hello mate, you were obviously thinking of the same crab as I was.

[Tourist]

K.I.I.T
Banter:- Good natured ribbing of others engendering team spirit and a feeling of belonging.
Throwing toys from pram:- failing to notice aforesaid banter and overreacting.:rolleyes:

[Oh I See]

Tourist

Back pedalling:- See above
:)