Pilots when passengers

[KLOS]

If you were a passenger on an airline other than your own (or a partner ) and you had a strong intimation (and were rated on the type or even not) that something was badly wrong, would you offer through the CC to give assitance to the flight crew. If this were declined and you believed that there might be an accident would you ( and presumably yes if you thought a disaster were on the cards) seek to insist I remember the case of the United B 747--Al Haynes flight Is there some code within the pilot community on this

Thanks

[Wycombe]

The United incident (Sioux City) to which you refer, when Dennis Fitch went to assist Alan Haynes in the Flight Desk, was of course a DC10.

[Dash8driver1312]

If there were a code, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

[KLOS]

Wasn't AlHaynes the commander?

[DaveReidUK]

Wasn't Al Haynes the commander? Yes. Dennis Fitch was the deadheading training captain who ended up steering the aircraft using the throttles in the absence of any usable flying controls.

[D120A]

Doesn't have to be a pilot, any aviation person with the courage of his/her convictions can, and should, step up to the plate. But you had better be right.

In the 1970s an RAF Chief Technician, settling in his seat at the back end of a DC-9 at LAX, bound for somewhere else on business, saw a loose panel or something in the intake of the starboard engine just outside his window. He called the CC and was fobbed off with a "Oh I am sure that's alright, please sit down Sir" (and with it an implied, "...and shut up").

He stood up and created a huge scene, to the extent that the captain was summoned to deal with him. Recounting first the CC's reaction, he pointed to the offending article out of the window. Long low whistles, mumbled apologies, glares at the CC and thanks were then the order of the day.

I don't know if the airline concerned (which I do not remember) refunded the RAF his fare. Probably not.

On the other side of the coin, a young RAF officer made a flash call to air traffic to stop a Britannia as it took off, because he thought the controls were disconnected. He didn't know that the Brit had servo-tab controls which floated disconcertingly once unlocked until the air speed straightened them out.

As I said at the start, you had better be right.

[con-pilot]

Doesn't have to be a pilot, any aviation person with the courage of his/her convictions can, and should, step up to the plate. But you had better be right.


Very true, but as you posted, you better be right.

In one case a deadheading FA was sitting next the overwing exit on the right side in a 727, an aircraft she had never served on. It was night and after landing the FE started the APU, which those of you that are not familiar with, the APU is in the main gear well with the APU exhaust next to the right side emergency exits over the wing on the 727.

As happens sometimes, the APU torched on start. The FA saw the flames flash by the window she was sitting next to. She assumed the wing was on fire, opened the emergeny exit and started screaming for all to evacuate the aircraft.

The cabin crew managed to stop any of the passengers from going though the exit, but had their hands full calming a buch of panicking passengers.

[KLOS]

Dash

I think you misunderstood 'code'. I am alluding to ordinance not wink wink

I was thinking more about situations when airborne and it seemed to the pilot passenger that the aircraft was not handling well as in the case of the DC10

[DaveReidUK]

I was thinking more about situations when airborne and it seemed to the pilot passenger that the aircraft was not handling well as in the case of the DC10I'd be careful about drawing too many parallels with the Sioux City DC-10.

If we're talking about what happens when a pilot passenger spots something that the crew isn't aware of, that probably doesn't include the explosive disintegration of an engine.

[Allan Lupton]

As we know, it's not just pilots who can spot something wrong as they look out of the window.
In the 1960s de Havilland, Hatfield, Chief Designer Phil Smith was travelling in a TCA Vanguard and saw that the wing or flap (can't recall which) was not as it should be. There followed a dialogue that was straight out of "No Highway" as he tried to convince the steward that it was important and that he was someone who knew - not helped by his relatively common name.

[KLOS]

Dave et al

Thanks for all your response

I am back thinking about Papa India where John Collins (who was a family friend) was the positioning pilot ( a Vanguard captain and Trdent F.O) who was in the jump seat and was witnessing the tragedy unfolding. If memory serves me, I think it was suggested that he had belatedly tried to alter the configuration but who knows what was the interaction with Stanley Key . ( Blind Pew?}

[mr Q]

In the Kegworth crash a number of passengers witnessed the failure of the engine and then heard the crew announce that they had shut down the functioning one. The cabin crew were alerted by those passengers but the information was never relayed to the flight deck where it might have alerted the pilots to revisit their actions and conclusion

[Agaricus bisporus]

How many hundreds of people would be alive today if just a few had created a commotion instead of just watching the iced/snowed up wings while they took off into oblivion?

[Mr Mac]

Had incident in the 1960,s when a pipe dropped out the bottom of a DC6 inboard engine and coolant spewed out, alerted Mum who got stewardess who then got FE to window. Engine then feathered and pat on head for me :), but have had nothing since in many 1000,s of miles of flight.

[sandiego89]

Story from a passenger on a French Concorde who saw a hole and fuel leaking from a tire burst (many years before the fatal incident). Tried to alert the cabin crew and was blown off. He persited until a cockpit crew member was summoned back and looked out the window. Good on the passenger.

Concorde SST crash: Yet another preventable disaster (http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/concorde.html)

[pax britanica]

Around 16 years ago I an family were going to faro from Gatwick on a long defunct British airline (Sabre/Ambassador?) a long taxi to the western end at LGW during which I notice no leading edge slats have been deployed. We join a short queue at the holding point and still no change in the leading edge- we are number three or four and a couple of aircraft go and still no slats and I am getting worried because I am pretty certain taking off without the proper configuration is going to end in an accident but do I or don't I say anything to the crew. Finally we are due to go and I am getting quite anxious when the engines spool up and finally out pop the slats. A very worrying time , I think back then some airlines didn't extend the slats before taxi as seems almost universal now but it did seem very odd to leave it that late.
As it happens I wasn't very impressed with the approach and landing at faro so may have been a very new FO. I wasn,t alone one of my holiday companions was BA 737 FOs wife who had flown numerous flight deck trips with him and was pretty used to the 73-200.

As there is another side to most coins fast forward ten years and I am on an MD80 at LGA bound for DFW at dawn and despite sitting well forward could see the slats were deployed - as the drew power up for take off the whoop whoop noise followed by config config comes clearly through the flight deck door. We abort, low speed, and try again with the same result. This time we taxy back and eventually the captain comes on and says the computer says the leading edge flaps (as he put it ) were not deployed when in fact they were and that they would have a ground engineer confirm they were deployed and ignore the computer.

So several different experiences but I remember the anxiety I felt about the 737 trip very clearly and the do I or don't I dilemma I felt I was facing with all my family on board too.

[drivez]

All depends I suppose, in the case of sitting in the back and seeing something clearly wrong I would say something i.e loose panel, snow on the wing etc. I know a lot of guys who have said something about snow on a wing, most often getting a thanks from the crew.

If I was mid-air, unless it was something like a pilot incapacitation I would only make myself known to CC if it was my type (also probably my company) and I felt like I could be of use to the crew. Otherwise I would stay shut up and let them deal with it. Last thing a crew need when things start going wrong is the cabin dinging to say there is a non type rated pilot who would like to assist.

Classic instance is Denny Fitch, highly experienced training captain on type, recognising a highly unusual situation he was 100% right to make himself know as he had something to offer the crew. Great CRM example.

[AndoniP]

Tried to alert the cabin crew and was blown off

Well that's one way to reward an observant passenger :E

[PAXboy]

On a lighter note ... when my nephew was 'boy pilot' on 744s, there was an occaision when he was told by Cpt to stay in the bunk through landing. As it happened, First Class was almost empty and the CC said he should take 1A (he is 6' 2") So he had snoozed for an hour or two and was then looking out of the window at the approach when ...

He later said to me, "I thought the whole aircraft was falling to bits - I was really frightened. For half a second - until I realised I was sitting over the nose wheel bay and had never been there before when the gear went down ..." :p

[SloppyJoe]

About 15 years ago as a PPL holder I was in LHR waiting for my flight and saw an aircraft just about to push back with what looked like a large hole in its rudder. I was no where near the gate but thought I should tell someone quickly. Called 999 and explained the situation, about 2 minutes later the aircraft stopped its push and an airside police vehicle showed up, had a chat with the engineer who wandered round and looked at the tail, it then returned to its stand and started to disembark the passengers.

[drivez]

Great story Sloppyjoe. Que awkward look from captain to FO "so who's walk around was it?"

[blind pew]

Was on a Trident 1e at Newcastle...sitting over the nose gear.
Massive graunching noise which was from the oleo strutt...informed CC and treated like a moron...we had just had a 1 c land with the nose gear stuck up due to same problem.
They obviously got it fixed in LHR before it stuck.

I sent up to the cockpit on Air Algeria ex Gva after my captain (in civvies) he spotted clear ice on the wing...crew lined up on 23 and opened the taps...my skipper turned ashen...turned off high speed and the SR mechanics took two goes at clearing the ice.
SR ground crew hadn't done their job properly but ice was unexpected as oat way above zero...aircraft had Eco tanked from Algers.
Difficult to see clear ice..we had tell tales retro fitted.

After Mount Helen errupted we had a crew stuck in Anchorage...passengered to Boston...several inches of snow on the wing...dead heading captain informed CC..several times...eventually threatened.
So as aircraft turned onto runway he opened the over wing exit and climbed onto wing....imprisoned by FBI.
Took diplomatic pressure to free him.
Next trip to ANC witnessed a mini snow storm on rotation of same companies aircraft.

[PAXboy]

Fabulous stories, blind pew.

The old 'endangering an aircraft' + 'interferring with the crew' routine? Truth is embarrasing but however uncomfortable it was to be entertained by the FBI, more comfortable than a prang.

I'll bet no one in the FBI turned around to accuse the airline of 'endangering an aircraft' :=

[blind pew]

Paxboy of you want a few more of my witterings try trustthepilot.blog.com..just writing one piece about a DC 10 nearly being taken out by a pair of Mirages...somewhere in the ether there is a report about it.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

CC requested seat backs upright for TO......they walked past the seat in front of me several times, fully reclined, and blocking MY free exit to 4R should it have been needed. I caught the eye of one CC and pointed to the recline. She managed to persuade the guy to put fully forward.


As we continued to taxi, he then put the recline back in.
I was slightly upset, tapped him on shoulder to ask him to put it forward, he then got very upset that I touched his shoulder, and refused to move. I pointed out that the seat upright was not an option, but a cabin crew INSTRUCTION...anyway he eventually unreclined.


On landing at destination, as we exited on the fast turn off, 20 or so passengers got up and started to unload their overhead baggage.


What is it about the middle east that demonstrated the crass stupidity, or is it that no one has the nerve to say NO.

[baselb]

She assumed the wing was on fire, opened the emergeny exitOnto a "burning" wing ? :eek:

[ruddman]

Agaricus bisporus....How many hundreds of people would be alive today if just a few had created a commotion instead of just watching the iced/snowed up wings while they took off into oblivion?



How many hundreds of people would be alive if it wasn't left up to un-interested, or bored, or nervous, or trusting passengers to point out possible issues with a piece of machinery they/we know little about? Especially when it comes to snow or ice on the wings.


Surely got to be a better 'system' in place?

[Mike Tee]

When boarding a KLM Md11 at Amsterdam for my regular flight down to Lagos I noticed (looking through the gap between the aircraft and the boarding tube) that there was a metal lever or handle sticking straight out from an unused door further down the aircraft. I mentioned this to one of the Cabin Crew who said she would inform the Cockpit. She returned a few moments later. "Capt. Vanderblink (or something like that) thanks you very much for your observation. What you can see is quite normal and the lever will close when we put the doors to automatic". Then in a quiet tone. "Would you like a pre-takeoff drink from the Club galley".

[meadowrun]

From my experience, CC usually know most of the pilots anyway, so usually know if they are on-board. I prefer to be sitting next to them in J/C in a no emergency mode, discussing things like FADEC thrust settings on a B763 or being asked to dig up a cracked DC-10 windshield for classroom demonstration purposes. Another whisky please.

[Dave Wilson]

Doesn't have to be a pilot, any aviation person with the courage of his/her convictions can, and should, step up to the plate. But you had better be right.

Not true. If anyone thinks there's something wrong with an aircraft, whether their own or one that's just taxiing past their boarding gate they should flag it up immediately. Chances are it will be something that's a routine part of that aircraft's operation but do you want to bet your life on it? If you have a serious concern then it should be treated seriously.

I know it's been said many times but take offs are optional, landings are mandatory.

[llondel]

Didn't it emerge after the Aloha 243 incident that a passenger had seen a crack in the fuselage during boarding but didn't mention it?

[Dct_Mopas]

Certainly flagging up issues is a must, but the manner in which thats done is important.

One such incident I know of involved an Airbus on approach. One of the front row passengers (a PPL holder) heard a noise from cockpit which he believed to be a 'stall warner'. He then proceeded to shout this incorrect conclusion at the cabin crew and in the process scared the hell out of everyone around him.

The noise was simply the master warning triggered by the pilot flying disconnecting the autopilot on the approach. A noise the cabin crew knew well from each and every flight.

The guy still didn't believe them and post flight demanded to speak to the Captain, that didn't last for long! As others have mentioned the cabin crew are pretty good at answering any queries or questions about any issues, just some don't want to listen.

[Conor.P.M]

Didn't it emerge after the Aloha 243 incident that a passenger had seen a crack in the fuselage during boarding but didn't mention it?

A quote from the NTSB aircraft accident report for Aloha Airlines flight 243 (NTSB/AAR-89/03).


Further, a passenger had noted and later reported a skin crack aft of the forward entry door near a top row of lap joints rivets for S-10L while boarding the airplane. (The passenger later was escorted to a similar airplane and verified the observation.) The Safety Board believes that the top rivet row was cracked at the S-10L lap joint just aft of BS 360 before the accident flight takeoff.

[Dave Wilson]

As others have mentioned the cabin crew are pretty good at answering any queries or questions about any issues, just some don't want to listen.

Works both ways though. Some years ago I was flying to the states from Gatwick and know that after 3 hours or so you should be well out over the oggin. I happened to glance out of the window and we were over what was unmistakably Ireland. I asked one of the cabin crew (quietly) if there was a problem and they assured me that all was well with the flight. I knew they were telling porkies but decided to leave it at that, we were obviously not about to plummet from the heavens. An hour later we were landing at Manchester as the a/c had gone tech.