View Full Version : A modern Houdini

13th Nov 2013, 16:00
Is it just me, or is anyone else slightly sceptical about the the Police verdict of accidental death for that spy who killed himself THEN padlocked himself inside a holdall?

Yeah - right!

tony draper
13th Nov 2013, 16:04
Yer seems a bit iffy, however there are some strange folks about,specially in the Civil Service.

13th Nov 2013, 16:13
Seem too remember reading that it was deemed impossible for the deceased to have got into the bag, closed it and padlocked it shut without assistance.

Does that mean just because our friends in blue could not find anyone else to blame (or maybe cannot say so) he must have done it himself?

Please feel free to add your own conspiracy theory!

tony draper
13th Nov 2013, 16:19
Watched a documentary once where some bloke tried to do it and failed as I recall,of course he was being paid by the Doc makers who would have had their own agenda so he may have been told not to try very hard.

13th Nov 2013, 18:04
I would consider myself 'a man of the world' when it comes to sexual matters. The bag, male inside, padlocked. and in a empty bath. Could there have been some sexual motive? I cannot foresee any act of this nature were one would be bagged.

Partial hanging to bring forth a sexual pleasure is known. Unless this person or persons unknown deliberately sealed/his/ the body in the bag to stop some sort of biological threat from leaking out. Something dodgy is afoot with this investigation.


13th Nov 2013, 18:14
Shouldn't this thread be called Houdunnit?

Effluent Man
13th Nov 2013, 18:16
I disagree it's fits pretty well with some forms of sexual play.His flat was full of women's clothes,all of a size to fit him plus a collection of high heeled shoes and boots,also his size.Also a collection of wigs.Seems pretty likely to me but I understand why the family do not want it to be so.He probably did it himself to avoid detection on vetting that would have cost him nis job.

13th Nov 2013, 20:21
My money is on a professional hit.

Mind you, it's so easy to craw into a holdall and top yourself. Yeah right.

Effluent Man
13th Nov 2013, 21:04
I think the double life theory fits pretty well.You don't have to "top yourself" that certainly would not have been his intention,it would be more the challenge of the confinement.People who indulge in this kind of play put themselves at extreme risk.It goes wrong a lot more often that you realise but the police know how to recognise these situations and choose to spare the families any extra grief.

A friend of mine was called to one where a chap was hanging by his ankles from a beam suspended from his loft hatch.he had apparently been there for more than a week.

Loose rivets
13th Nov 2013, 21:12
You don't say if he was alive.

Effluent Man
13th Nov 2013, 21:22
He wasn't.Probably died from a heart attack.What I failed to mention on the bagman was that he was also into cycling.The endorphin release of this type of activity is very similar to that from paraphilia and tends to be addictive.

13th Nov 2013, 21:27
I worked with an openly gay guy who was found dead with his head in a plastic bag secured round his throat with a tie and an orange in his mouth with a bitten through amyl nitrate capsule in it.

I had a manager who was convicted of gross indecency with two other men in a public lavatory: 18 months later, he was convicted of drunk driving in a company car, which was usually an offence with mandatory dismissal: he wasn't dismissed and we all wondered what he had been up to with very senior management to get away with it.

Loose rivets
13th Nov 2013, 21:35
I think there is little doubt it was a simple accident. Or maybe, he'd really had enough of his life. To counter this, his posting back to GCHQ was imminent.

Get someone that wants to be confined, and they will improvise the most extraordinary means to achieve their often lonely desires. Sometimes it goes wrong.

Maybe there was a lover that was supposed to meet him after a few hours. I don't know if it was possible to breath through the material that confined him. Maybe the lover got the hump about something and decided to let him struggle out of his . . . predicament, not knowing he'd passed a point of no return.

There are a thousand possibilities, but I think they'd have found ricin or some-such in his body.

I feel disinclined to post a link to the fetish word on a family forum, but if you want to peek into another world, look up Micky, and bondage. Don't fall in love with that beautiful face chaps, you'd be very disappointed.

Micky describes endless hours of total sensual deprivation, and would like to make it compulsory.

Despite finding it intriguing, I have a lifelong fear of being confined. Yet I suppose that's the point. If one is masochistic, then something you fear takes on a whole new dynamic.

Effluent Man
13th Nov 2013, 21:53
I think that you might be surprised at the numbers of people who are either fascinated by such things or actually experience them.How else can you explain the thousands of professional practitioners of these dark arts.?Where surveys have been done anonymously it comes out at around 20-25% of the population.

13th Nov 2013, 21:59
...and probably most of them are Bankers...

13th Nov 2013, 23:21
iwsIs it just me, or is anyone else slightly sceptical about the the Police verdict of accidental death for that spy who killed himself THEN padlocked himself inside a holdall?

Yeah - right!

Wasn't it the Coroners verdict, after a police investigation?

13th Nov 2013, 23:25
Apparently there was absolutely no DNA of anybody - not even from the deceased - on the bag or anywhere in the bath. To have lowered himself into the bag in the bath would have needed supporting himself.

The heating in the flat was turned-up fully in mid summer and all lights were turned off. To have achieved self-imprisonment in total darkness without the security of a knife for use in an emergency seems improbable.

The victim was found in the foetal position with his arms crossed and the handles of the holdall were together across the top of the bag.

13th Nov 2013, 23:31
Article with video, if you want to try it !
I couldn't help thinking, imagine if you dropped the key :eek:

Spy death: It is possible to lock yourself into a bag, claims soldier (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9254830/Spy-death-It-is-possible-to-lock-yourself-into-a-bag-claims-soldier.html)

"Mr Williams' former landlords told the inquest how they once found him handcuffed alone to a bed, suggesting he had a fetish for restraint."

Effluent Man
14th Nov 2013, 06:36
I wasn't being judgmental in the use of that phrase,far from it I have a variety of friends including one who has a job that involves deep vetting.The lady in question also has a,shall we say interesting, personal lifestyle involving activities not a million miles from those under discussion here.It's where the bulk of my information on this particular case comes from.
She didn't know Mr Williams personally but does know someone from his department and the combination of what is known certainly points strongly to auto-eroticism gone wrong.In these days of the internet it is easy to find those of a like mind if you wish to take part in these sort of activities but if you are in his position expect your security rating to be seriously downgraded if your employers discover your tastes (And they will).
Personally my view is if they get off on being locked in a holdall that isn't a problem.It is no more weird than any of the extreme sports that are intended to produce the drug like feelings of an endorphin rush.

14th Nov 2013, 11:05
The question isn't whether the unfortunate was inclined to such behaviour, but whether the act was finalised by a third person or persons (knowing his proclivities) and, if so, then why?
What reason might there be for committing this 'murder'?

14th Nov 2013, 11:46
When working at a Swedish multinational one of our co-workers was found strangled to death. Turns out he had a secret hardcore life in the gay community that nobody at work knew about. Two years later the investigating police officer died of cancer. Ten years later I was working at the same Swedish multinational and there was a bloke in the team with exactly the same name, appearance and background but slightly taller - he'd been there for 7 years.

One day at work at same Swedish multinational company while taking lunch, one of the Asian staff members said he was waiting to meet his bank manager. Caucasian bank manager arrived and staff member went to sit with him at another table. There was no doubt this was a luvyduvy homo relationship, bank manager was in his late 50's early 60's staff member was in his mid 20's, in fact it looked more like the staff member was using sexual favours to get other favours out of the bank manager.

I guess when it all goes pear shaped and the fag threatens to spill the beans he mysteriously winds up dead.

cockney steve
14th Nov 2013, 12:25
Aviation content alert!

Anyone remember the pilfered luggage mystery which always traced back to the same airport?

A man with a suitcase used to regularly catch the coach to the airport....his case was putin the boot (luggage compartment )

I can't remember how he was rumbled, but an accomplice was concealed in the case....once on the move, he would let himself out, rifle the other bags and then re-conceal himself with his booty.

14th Nov 2013, 12:38
I reckon he was killed.
Heating turned up to speed decomposition and hide poison or drugs.
In a bag to confine the smell and keep the flies away.
Lights out to avoid attracting attention at night.
Placed in a bath so that the corpse liquor could brain away.

tony draper
14th Nov 2013, 12:48
That's a old trick used by scallywags Mr Steve,see here, The Lang Pack further down the page:)
Kielder and North Tynedale (http://www.englandsnortheast.co.uk/NorthTynedale.html)

Krystal n chips
14th Nov 2013, 18:44
Mr D......about your link and the unintended irony therein.....the poet whose piece is quoted at the end......;)

" I guess when it all goes pear shaped and the fag threatens to spill the beans he mysteriously winds up dead"

A charming illustration as to how societal development seems to have eluded you. Apart from the reference to gay men, it may have escaped your notice that both hetrosexual genders are far from averse from having sexual partners who are several decades apart.

The "dark arts", well yes, and given that the tabloids delight in "Weirdo Bondage Freak Exposed !" and similar headlines for the limited stimulation of the readership for whom eroticism is (a) not in their vocabulary and (b) sexual pleasure is basically comparable to the "Ro-Ro" ferry, then it's hardly surprising those who have the intellect and imagination to indulge do not really wish to be exposed to the public gaze and even more so if their natures form part of, shall we say, a mutual lifestyle.

How long did it take before gay and lesbian sexuality was, thankfully, finally accepted more openly into society?....so again, it's no surprise that people who have alternative sexual inclinations should feel reticent about being open about their natures.

After all, it's perfectly acceptable across a broad range of social classes to "give the bitch a slap now and then" ( to paraphrase their philosophical stance ) clearly not mine in case the intellectually diminished feel this is the case, watch extreme violence as has already been mentioned, watch the degradation of women for male gratification yet be "appalled" at sexual activity which, other than the extreme end of the spectrum, poses no threat to the general public as a whole.

What did a certain Pierre Trudeau say? "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the population" or something very similar if I've misquoted him.

Effluent Man
15th Nov 2013, 08:46
Krystal, I absolutely agree.No part of anything that I have written in the course of this thread is meant to imply criticism of Mr.Williams and the use of "dark arts" was,more or less,tongue in cheek.Rather it was aimed at those,in my opinion remarkably naive,people who see a conspiracy theory in this poor chap turning up dead in the bath.

Human sexuality covers an incredibly broad range.(Google paraphilia) None of this shocks me although much puzzles me.It's a bit like paedophilia really.I have seen otherwise upright citizen's lives destroyed by an addiction to something that just seems an odd thing to want to do.Statistically there is likely to be someone reading this post who secretly suffer from those desires.Unlike most I even have sympathy with them as they are driven towards potential self destruction.

Compared to that it must be quite nice to merely want to be locked inside a holdall but if you practice this alone the potential for self destruction is every bit as great.

15th Nov 2013, 10:32
Williams's naked body was found in the padlocked bag, with the keys discovered under his body, in the otherwise empty bath in his flat in Pimlico, central London, in August 2010. (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/13/mi6-spy-dead-bag-locked-himself-gareth-williams)

I guess the dark arts theorists will now be looking for a third key!
Having just returned from B&Q, I notice that padlocks only come with 2 keys, so whoever did this must have made a copy!

Maybe Professor Severus Snape is waiting on the grassy knoll for the bus driven by Elvis, to take the third key to Area 51, for the aliens to then take it to the North Pole, in order to hide it at the centre of the Earth in Hangar 13 :rolleyes:

15th Nov 2013, 10:49
so whoever did this must have made a copy
No - it is possible to lock these padlocks without the key.

tony draper
15th Nov 2013, 10:56
Hmmm, most padlocks I've seen only need a key to open them,they lock when you push the top bent bit into the hole in the brass bit.
Sorry for using all this technological terminology.

15th Nov 2013, 13:07
When did facts first start getting noticed by conspiracy theorists?

No palm prints on sides of bath - Perhaps he didn't touch them!
No DNA on padlock - Just because you touch something, doesn't mean you leave DNA on it!

You guys will be telling us Andy Kaufman is still alive next :rolleyes:;)

15th Nov 2013, 13:14
Be careful what you ask for

Andy Kaufman: 'Daughter' Claims Star Is Alive (http://news.sky.com/story/1168728/andy-kaufman-daughter-claims-star-is-alive)

15th Nov 2013, 14:35
His flat was full of women's clothes,all of a size to fit him plus a collection of high heeled shoes and boots,also his size

Would it not be normal for a spy to have lots of diguises?


15th Nov 2013, 15:53
but generally moustaches, apparently...

B Fraser
15th Nov 2013, 16:14
Getting your kicks from hiding in a holdall is pretty strange stuff but each to their own I suppose. Doing so in the bath is just downright weird as the restriction of the bath would make getting in a bit more difficult and would be uncomfortable on the knees. That for me, makes it highly improbable that the bloke did it himself never mind turning the heating up to the max in the middle of summer.

It is no more weird than any of the extreme sports that are intended to produce the drug like feelings of an endorphin rush.

Paragliding is standing atop a mountain before tossing yourself off and seeing how long you can keep it up. I've managed over two hours at a time ;)

Loose rivets
15th Nov 2013, 16:19
Ooooooooo. This moustache goes nicely with my favorite dress!

Loose rivets
15th Nov 2013, 16:39
I've mentioned it before, but I wondered about a mind that had become sentient being confined in the womb. I used to marvel at Dr Rivets' little feet trotting around his sister, and wondered how he could put up with that added restriction.

I recall the sensuous warmth of waking in the mornings about the age I'd had a sudden rush of blood to my goolies. It was pleasurable to the extent I'd want to miss school. What was strange was that it felt familiar. Of that, I'm certain.

We experience such strong sexual 'drivers', and yes indeed, they make fools of paupers, presidents and princes. The reward circuits take over completely.

Many of ours systems are made to switch off when we're born, but these days we're born into a world with man-made materials that have the look and feel of the womb. Coming into contact, or even seeing such materials perhaps rekindles that protective circuitry and feeds the sensuous memories that are supposed to be forgotten. I imagine body warmth might well be a significant factor. Confinement certainly is.

There is a lot of work published about claustrophobia in the womb, but I have never found a link with the extremes of bondage, like, bondage bags.

To me, nothing could be more clear than the link between these two states.

If such a bit of miss-programing does occur, it's all too often labeled a fetish. Such a phenomenon probably doesn't qualify for that particular tag, though if a true cause is not established, then it's difficult to categorize it as 'normal'.

15th Nov 2013, 17:44
standing atop a mountain before tossing yourself off

Is that the 'in' venue these days? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Effluent Man
15th Nov 2013, 17:49
The most common of these states,again myself I would not refer to them as a perversion,is that of women wearing high heels.If you are in the supermarket when a woman is wearing them try watching the men surreptitiously.The majority of them will look,often long and hard as she passes down the aisle.I reckon that it is the fetish of favour.I would guarantee more men will look than ignore a nice pair of of hiigh heels.

Loose rivets
15th Nov 2013, 17:58
Not me. I find myself wondering about the floor-loading.

Nearly lost an eye, and a career, when a new DAN hostie hooked her heel on an escape slide and flew through the air at me. I was supposed to be at the base of the slide. Her heel opened up the flesh just above my eye. Perhaps I am partly responsible for folk having to take their shoes off while running through burning grass etc.

A SIL here in Texas, wore high heels for such a large part of her life, when we went down on a cave tour, she couldn't walk with her heels on the ground.