View Full Version : Winds 235 mph?

tony draper
8th Nov 2013, 13:09
It don't bare thinking about,that could flatten one of our brick and concrete built towns never mind the flimsy construction they use in places like the Philippines.:uhoh:
I believe the highest wind speed ever recorded was at some weather station on top of a mountain in the USA,which one and what speed was recorded I missremember now.

8th Nov 2013, 13:16
You're talking kph, I think. The current alert is for 145 knots, falling slightly.

8th Nov 2013, 13:17
Tony D:

I can enlighten you as to exactly which mountain you are referring to and the wind speed recorded there as the wife and I just visited said mountain about a month ago.

The mountain in question is in the Northeast U.S. State of New Hampshire. (Good ol' English name eh?!!!) and goes by the name of Mount Washington. It is the highest mountain in the Northeastern United States at about 6,300' or almost 2,000m. The highest wind gust ever recorded on the planet earth was on Mount Washington in April 1934 and was measured at 230mph, or 370kph for you metric type.

I believe that record was broken a couple of years ago somewhere else on terra firma but I'm not sure where.

What I do know is that it is ALWAYS cold on Mount Washington. doesn't matter if it's sweltering elsewhere, Mt. Washington is god's refrigerator on earth.

here is a shot of the Mt. Washington observator tower taken in the winter.
My balls just shriveled looking at it!!!


tony draper
8th Nov 2013, 13:33
Well the BBC just quoted 235 MPH twice,def not KPH, of course they could be getting it wrong.

8th Nov 2013, 13:36
Most wind on terra firma that I've seen is about 145mph -- on a chilly mountaintop around 3700 meters elevation.

Brings out the lichen aspects of one's persona, it does.

8th Nov 2013, 13:38
At 13:37 GMT I'm showing 145 knots on the feed, so I'd guess the BBC is wrong.

8th Nov 2013, 13:39
Sky says the same Tony.

Super Typhoon Haiyan Hits The Philippines (http://news.sky.com/story/1165530/super-typhoon-haiyan-hits-the-philippines)

BBC News - Monster typhoon Haiyan roars into Philippines (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24846813)

8th Nov 2013, 13:43
That's affirmative Wholigan. I was just reading that the U.S. Navy has some sort of warning center in the Pacific which recorded wind gusts of 235mph in the Philipines. Mt. Washington's record wind gust has been broken. For now anyway!

tony draper
8th Nov 2013, 13:48
Be ok for you plump well ballasted chaps but 235 MPH would be bad news for a lightweight like me.

8th Nov 2013, 13:51

8th Nov 2013, 13:53
The eye of the typhoon is currently smack over the center of the Philipines.
Frightening looking indeed.


A bet the folks on the ISS would have a really good view, safe from harm as well!

8th Nov 2013, 13:57
During Cyclone Olivia, which cyclone passed over Barrow Island, Western Australia on 10th April 1996 - a wind gust of 408kmh (253mph) was accurately recorded.

Wind speed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_speed)

There has been a higher wind speed recorded in a tornado in the U.S. - during the F5 tornado that hit Bridge Creek OK on 3rd May 1999, a wind speed of 486kmh (302mph) was accurately recorded.
It's entirely possible higher wind speeds in F5 tornadoes have been reached, but never recorded.

8th Nov 2013, 14:04
Anyway, generally a bad day for anyone in the neighborhood.

8th Nov 2013, 14:10
It's entirely possible higher wind speeds in F5 tornadoes have been reached, but never recorded.

They may well have been recorded, albeit briefly, but I bet the kit was never found. :eek:

8th Nov 2013, 14:24

What I do know is that it is ALWAYS cold on Mount Washington. doesn't matter if it's sweltering elsewhere, Mt. Washington is god's refrigerator on earth.

Frühstück Der Champions - Mt. Washington NH - YouTube

8th Nov 2013, 14:26
My feed has just dropped to Cat 4.

8th Nov 2013, 14:31
Good one that, Loma. Waste of perfectly good Wheaties though!!!

(I do wonder, though, why the guy seated - sort of - at the table was donned in a Hazmat suit.)

8th Nov 2013, 14:57
I've been out walking in 200kph winds - that's 125 mph - got knocked down several times crossing a mountain ridge. It is impossible to stand up. After the second time I just crawled on all fours 'till I reached shelter.

Can't imagine 235 mph.

Lon More
8th Nov 2013, 15:03
From CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57611452/philippines-battered-by-monster-typhoon-haiyan-at-least-4-killed/), 30 minutes ago.
The U.S. Navy's Joint Typhoon Warning Center said shortly before the typhoon made landfall that its maximum sustained winds were 195 mph, with gusts up to 235 mph. Those measurements are different than local weather data because the U.S. Navy center measures the average wind speed for 1 minute while local forecasters measure average for 10 minutes.

8th Nov 2013, 15:19
Frightening looking indeed

Get away with you - that's one of Picasso's finest.

8th Nov 2013, 15:48
arcniz wrote: Most wind on terra firma that I've seen is about 145mph...

I've previously felt the wind and even smelled the wind (eg. if only my own and others' farts; the smells of freshly-cut grass, other wafting scents of someone I don't know cooking a very nice curry or couscous etc.), but I ain't ever actually seen any winds...?! The results and effects of the wind for sure but... ;)

Oh for goodness' sake, I was writing in jest.

PS. My neice is currently a member of a "charitable organisation" doing so-called good works in the area of northern Samar, which has taken the brunt of the current typhoon apparently. Have not yet heard any news from her. Would "serve her right" if she was at this moment clinging for life to a coconut tree too...

8th Nov 2013, 18:34
Have not yet heard any news from her. Would "serve her right" if she was at this moment clinging for life to a coconut tree too...

Not very charitable of you, I must say. In any case, common sense says that the infrastructure there must be in a hell of a state, with telecoms being particularly vulnerable to environmental catastrophe on that scale.

8th Nov 2013, 18:43
Interview on BBC R5 with the sister of a man who was staying in a hotel in the Philippines. Her brother was communicating with her via Skype and she was able to see the destruction of the hotel room occurring before the link was lost. So far no news as to whether her brother and the others survived the storm.

8th Nov 2013, 19:20
There has been a higher wind speed recorded in a tornado in the U.S. - during the F5 tornado that hit Bridge Creek OK on 3rd May 1999, a wind speed of 486kmh (302mph) was accurately recorded.

NOAA's severe weather research laboratory center is in Norman, Oklahoma. In the May, 1999 tornado outbreak, one of the worse in recorded history, the center had just finished a then brand new radar system that measured windspeeds. This was a portable unit and it was placed in front of the predicted path of one of the F-5 tornadoes that would be passing near Norman.

As it turned out, the tornado was not an F-5 as predicted, but an F-6, which in fact was not on the Fujita scale at that time. The maximum wind speed on the Fujita scale was 300 mph. The tornado that afternoon was the first recorded above 300 mph in history, 302 mph*.

Before this radar system was invented, the Fujita scale rating was based on damage, then the wind speed was estimated from the degree of damage and for the most part, still is.

My mother's home was in the path of this F-5/6 tornado and was totally destroyed. Her home was in the southeast part of the greater Oklahoma City area and at about the same time her home was being destroyed, I was landing at an airport on the northwest side of the city. I was painting the thunderstorm that was producing this tornado on the radar in my aircraft. It was a very, very ugly and mean looking storm, of course I had no idea just how bad of a storm it was. I soon discovered just how bad it really was.

My wife knew about what time I should be landing and was in the back yard (garden) of our house looking at the sky to see how the weather was and saw me fly over on final. As I was pulling up on the ramp my mobile phone rang and she told me that my mother's home may have been hit. She was watching the radar on the local TV stations, had seen the super cell make a left turn and make a direct hit on the neighborhood where mother's home was located. That was when she went outside to look at the sky and saw me on final.

She tried time after time to call my mother both on the landline and on mother's mobile phone, getting no answer as I was driving home. After I got home the police were on TV telling everyone to stay out of the areas where the tornado had hit and anyone except for emergency crews attempting to enter the area, would face arrest.

We waited at our house for about an hour, hearing nothing. So I decided to hell with this, put on my US Marshal raid jacket and we headed to my mother's neighborhood, me planning to bluff** our way in if stopped. While enroute to her area, we recieved a call from someone that we didn't know, that told us that my mother had managed to get out of her destroyed home and make it another neighborhood. Where the people who called us lived

As she had been walking around, it now being dark from a combination heavy thick clouds and sunset, she had been confused due to the devastation around there and became disorientated, then some one saw her standing in front of their house, went out and got her, then took her into their home. They were the one's that called my wife's mobile phone.

We got her back to our house that night and my mother, who was some what of teetotaler, drank over a bottle wine that night by herself. I of course being the dutiful son, kept up with her drinking Scotch. No one was allowed back into her neighbood for two days, then on the third day after the tornado, we were allowed back in.

The best and only way to describe the devastation is, to tell you to look at the after strike photos of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I kid you not. There was nothing left taller than a foot or two high. Brick single and two story homes completely destroyed. Natural gas meters, made of metal pipes, stripped out of the ground, telephone poles snapped off at the base, in some areas the pavement was stripped off of the streets and a red sports car we saw wrapped around a tree that was a half mile from the tornado's path in an area that had little or no dammage.

But the most amazing thing was, only one person in my mother's neighborhood was killed.

So yes, winds above 200 mph can and will cause unbelievable damage and winds at 300 mph can and will cause incomprehensible damage.

* The first report was that the wind speed was 312 mph, but a month later it was lowered to 302 mph.

** I had actually left the Marshal Service the year before, so I had no badge or credentials to show if anyone had challenged me, but no one did.

8th Nov 2013, 19:27
Glad to know your Mum made it out of the mess okay, Con. And I'm equally glad that you kept her company with spirits, so to speak, in hand!!!!

But this is yet another example of the fury of nature and how destructive it can be.

9th Nov 2013, 13:38
We got her back to our house that night and my mother, who was some what of teetotaler, drank over a bottle wine that night by herself. I of course being the dutiful son, kept up with her drinking Scotch.

c-p, I'd have also been the dutiful son, though must admit to have never needed an excuse as grave or life-threatening as your own example above. Glad she came out of it OK back in 1999. That's quite a long time ago, so I hope you've had many happy years together since. :)

9th Nov 2013, 13:49
Uhh, what a story, Con! Best wishes to your wife, that must have been quite a moment, watching you on final.

9th Nov 2013, 14:48
The lowest atmospheric pressure in the typhoon went down to 845 Mb, which is about 26.45 in Hg. The lowest I've ever seen was during a blizzard years ago, at 27.89 in Hg.

10th Nov 2013, 03:36
The mini-tornadoes we get in the Outback of Australia, called "willy-willies" locally, can often be nearly as destructive as tornadoes in the U.S. There are often "mini-tornadoes" embedded in violent Australian storms. I have personally seen evidence of this.

My father worked in the Murchison area of Western Australia in the 1930's, and he told us of a destroyed windmill tower he found on one station (ranch) that had been hit by a very large and extremely violent willy-willy.
He said the three legs of the windmill tower, made of 1/4" (6mm) thick by 2" (50mm) wide angle iron, had been twisted together so tightly, that they resembled a thick section of wire rope!

In my own experience, a violent Winter storm in July 1975 which resulted in regular wind gusts of 120kmh in the region of the Southern Goldfields where I was living at the time, produced an exceptionally violent mini-tornado just a few kms down the road from my camp.
When I drove down the highway the following morning after the storm had abated somewhat, I found a kilometre-long section of heavily-timbered country on a ridge, looking like bulldozers had been dragging a heavy anchor chain through the timber, as this was a common land-clearing technique of the era.

Every tree in that kilometre long and 1/4 mile (400M) wide strip (with some trees up to 2 1/2 feet or 75cm in diameter), had been completely twisted off, between about 2' and 4' (60-120cm) above the ground, and every tree had been shredded into small pieces.
It was incredible to see the destruction - and unfortunately, the photo I took of this destruction was later destroyed in a house fire.
The destroyed area has never fully recovered and the destroyed strip of timber can still be seen as an obvious feature of the vegetation, fully 38 yrs later.

10th Nov 2013, 03:44
One track

Found a similar swathe cut through the bush in the NT when we were out checking fences / hunting. Came across a large brach / tree across a fence but the other side, there was this 50 + 100 foot line cut through where all the trees had been ripped up and flattened.

Admittedly the soil was wet and this wouldn't help but you could see the force
as like yours, some were twisted.

I know people who were in Darwin for Cyclone Tracy, what that did to some
of those old Iron Telegraph poles was amazing and they are almost like
railway lines.

10th Nov 2013, 03:52
Jarrell, TX Tornado - Documentary - YouTube


10th Nov 2013, 03:59
Here's a good website with a substantial amount of info on TC Haiyan. I've linked to the page with the windspeeds, but there is a lot more info in the menu tabs across the top.

Tropical cyclone HAIYAN-13 (http://www.gdacs.org/Cyclones/report.aspx?eventid=41058&episodeid=28&eventtype=TC)

Saddened to hear that Father Kevin Lee, the Catholic priest who exposed an enormous amount of Catholic Church corruption, and kiddy-fiddling amongst the Catholic priesthood, has been killed in this cyclone. He was living in the Philippines with his Filipino wife and child.

His book and website, "Unholy Silence" is extremely critical of the Catholic Churches attitude to pedophilia and sexual deviate behaviour within the Church.

10th Nov 2013, 18:02

When I drove down the highway the following morning after the storm had abated somewhat, I found a kilometre-long section of heavily-timbered country on a ridge, looking like bulldozers had been dragging a heavy anchor chain through the timber, as this was a common land-clearing technique of the era.

Every tree in that kilometre long and 1/4 mile (400M) wide strip (with some trees up to 2 1/2 feet or 75cm in diameter), had been completely twisted off, between about 2' and 4' (60-120cm) above the ground, and every tree had been shredded into small pieces.

That would have been an F-5 tornado. Only an enhanced F-5 scale tornado will strip the bark from trees and remove the pavement from roadways. Winds 261–318* mph/419–512 Km/h.

* Before the May, 1999 Oklahoma City tornado the scale was 261-300 mph. After the wind speed were measured above 300 mph in that tornado, the max limit was rasied and now the scale is called the Enhanced Fujita Scale.

And thank all of you for your kind remarks. Sadly that tornado ultimately did kill my mother, at least in my opinion. She never was the same person after the tornado, became withdrawn and paraniod. Despite all we could do for her, it mattered little, we finally talked her into moving in with us, but a few months after she did, she had to be taken to hospital when her kidneys failed and died a few weeks later. She was 82.

10th Nov 2013, 19:46
Typhoon Haiyan: Locals count cost of deadly storm as dramatic footage emerges | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2013/11/10/typhoon-haiyan-locals-count-cost-of-deadly-storm-as-dramatic-footage-emerges-4180733/)

10th Nov 2013, 19:56
My daughter was born in Filipino typhoon -we had a newborn with no electricity or water for a week.Much devastation - was one of the most frightening experiences of my life. We keep a second home in Manila and fortunately the typhoon passed well to the south. Some of our local Filipino community in Fife, Scotland have had their family homes destroyed - no reports of casualties as yet.

10th Nov 2013, 20:23
How on Earth do you mobilise adequate 'help' to cope with a disaster of this magnitude?

The British Red Cross have dispatched a team of four 'facilitators'. I'm not seeking to belittle the efforts of the Red Cross, but what can four people do?

Apart from the tens of thousands that have perished there must be maybe a million survivors that need shelter and food.

As has been reported, almost all vehicles in the affected area have been destroyed so the transport infrastructure is 'broken'.

10th Nov 2013, 20:32

I was thinking the same thing last night, especially after I read that the UN
were doing some sort of assessment of requirements. I thought it would
be pretty clear after all this time it is pretty clear what is required, we seem
to get these huge disasters every couple of years.

After the US sent a couple of huge ships to sit off from the Tsunami place,
I think it was the USS Bonhomme Richard, I wonder if a couple of these
are not needed by the UN, fully equipped.

It provides a lot of what is required, water, food, transport (helicopters),
vehicles and medical facilities all self contained.

10th Nov 2013, 20:48

How on Earth do you mobilise adequate 'help' to cope with a disaster of this magnitude?

The US has a Marine Amphibious fleet heading to the Philippines, plus a aircraft carrier fleet. The Marines are not going there to invade the place, using the standard meaning if the word. But to perform search and rescue duties. Along with the helicopters on the ships, they also have excelent medical facalities.

But, before any US military force can lift a finger, they must be invited by the Philippine government. Same for any country really.

I just heard that the first ships should be reaching the affected areas by late tonight US time.

US Groups Launch Relief Efforts to Help Philippine Storm Victims (http://www.voanews.com/content/us-groups-launch-relief-efforts-to-help-philippine-storm-victims/1786890.html)

10th Nov 2013, 20:53
A lot of the emergency communications are (as usual) down to radio amateurs - they can be found on 7095 kHz LSB. The technical ability of radio amateurs to rig a wire antenna and get on the air with a generator for power has provided the first communications with Tacloban City.

Two or three USN aircraft carriers with all their facilities would provide a big relief.....it just takes a little while to get them there.

10th Nov 2013, 20:58
The US has certainly used the US military to good effect in previous disasters
and good to see.

Agree with what you said about "invited", I believe this was a bit of an issue with
not only Aussie soldiers but also civvy NGO's going to the Tsunami victims, at least initially.

10th Nov 2013, 21:20
Send a USN carrier. You get 3 or 4 fully equipped hospitals, up to 3000 people to help, helicopters, capability of thousands of gallons of drinking water, medical help, help with infrastructure repair, tents, emergency shelters etc.

Plus it doesn't cost you a cent!

These are times when one should realise just what Uncle Sam does for the rest of the world in natural disasters.

Although as a cynic, I would figure it's what because the US military does, not the US politicians.

10th Nov 2013, 22:01
From the National Disaster Risk Reduction and Management Council:-

NDRRMC said at least 2,055,630 families or 9,497,847 people in 7,027 villages in 455 towns and 49 cities in 41 provinces had been affected by Yolanda.
Of these, 132,323 families or 630,054 people were displaced.
At least 95,696 families or 447,675 people are staying in 1,645 evacuation centres.Property damage:-
Damage was valued at P138,552,546.55, including P13,797,500 in infrastructure and P124,755,046.55 in agriculture.

At least 13,191 houses were destroyed while 6,360 were damaged.

The number of confirmed fatalities at 229.
The injured now number 45, with 28 still missing.

10th Nov 2013, 22:13
Re the stats, it seems to me to be some sort of agenda with the media plucking a figure of 10,000 out of the air and making it front page fact when inside they say "possibly 10,000".

It reminds me of the heart jerker campaigns of the past.

IMHO, this disaster does not need any embellishment in any way.

Just my HO, I am sure people will disagree with me.

10th Nov 2013, 22:25
I found. the BBC reporter's turn of phrase a little unfortunate. I'm sure 'the sweet smell of death' could have been worded a little more appropriately and professionally.

10th Nov 2013, 23:05
Let's see who gets there first and does more good. The UN, or the USN? Just asking.

10th Nov 2013, 23:11
I think I have found my first ever dumb question ;)

10th Nov 2013, 23:20
Send a USN carrier. You get 3 or 4 fully equipped hospitals, up to 3000 people to help, helicopters, capability of thousands of gallons of drinking water, medical help, help with infrastructure repair, tents, emergency shelters etc.

I hate to bring up/in /whatever in the way of slight thread drift.

But of course I will anyway. The night of the May, 1999 the US Air Force and Navy were the first responders to reach my mother's neighborhood and many of the injuried were taken to a US Air Force Base hospital.

This was because a major USAF Base/Naval Air Station is litteraly just across a street from the neighborhood. Although heavily damaged itself, the Base Commander 'asked' for volunteers to go to adjacent civilian neighborhood. The response was overwhelming.

When things go to hell, it is a very good thing to have the US Miltary around to help.

11th Nov 2013, 00:22
Britain has committed to help people affected by the typhoon that swept through the Philippines. The Department for International Development (DfID) said money would be given to pre-approved organisations to provide "crucial humanitarian aid".

Organisations such as the Red Cross, Oxfam and UNICEF hold stocks of disaster-relief supplies and equipment in locations (such as Copenhagen, Dubai, Panama and Shanghai) in anticipation of such events.

These organisations will appeal to the public for funds for ongoing supplies as well as to replace stocks in preparation for future incidents.

The Sultan
11th Nov 2013, 01:03
The US Marines 3rd from Okinawa has boots on the ground and sending their Ospreys which is the best the US has for this kind of effort.

The Sultan

11th Nov 2013, 05:53
Weather radars and pictures of the hurricane from space. They note its perfect symmetry and eye.

Super typhoon Haiyan: One of world?s most powerful storms in history from space (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/11/08/super-typhoon-haiyan-one-of-worlds-most-powerful-storms-in-history-from-space/)

11th Nov 2013, 09:19
Wasn't at least one of our number (lasrssnowpharter) based in the rural Philippines? I've just checked and Lars hasn't apparently been active since April of this year. Perhaps if anyone is in contact with him via other means perhaps they could check up on his well-being.

11th Nov 2013, 09:51
larssnowpharter was planning a move to Norfolk with his family.

11th Nov 2013, 10:04
Our local Helston charity Shelterbox has been doing great work in disasters like this for the last 13 years. The idea is to get immediate practical help on the ground as quickly as possible, by means of large plastic crates which contain a tent, cooking equipment, water etc, enough for a family to survive for a limited period in the immediate aftermath of the disaster.

All the details here ShelterBox | About Us (http://www.shelterbox.org/about.php)

11th Nov 2013, 10:08
I've heard of those Shelterboxes before.
They are so practical and quick and easy.

It seems the US Mil does move fast when these types
of disasters happen which is good. The ships off shore
are superb for providing a fair amount of what is required.

11th Nov 2013, 17:42
The other advantage of having US mil assistance in these disasters is that they can provides some security until local police are available again.

The US mil have a history of helping, though. 8 February 1952, Harrow railway crash, 112 killed in 3 trains. USAF Hq at Rusilip was close to the scene and sent 500 doctors and nurses and their field hospitals, pulled in from bases around the south of England.

Frank Arouet
12th Nov 2013, 06:19
Phillipines delegate to climate change talks in Warsaw, Yeb Sano, in a tearful speech advises the cause of the Hurricane was climate change.

Greens: Typhoon the result of climate change - World - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11155903)

Typhoon Haiyan: Philippines climate chief Yeb Sano makes emotional plea for climate change action - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-12/philippines-official-makes-emotional-plea-on-climate-change/5085778)

In doing so he has denounced any Act of God as being responsible. His quandary in a large Christian population puts grey areas in any insurance claim. That is unless Insurance Company's accept climate change disasters.

12th Nov 2013, 13:07
BBC News - Philippines typhoon: BBC reports on grounded planes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24910209)

12th Nov 2013, 17:08
In the absence of adequate supplies of food, survivors are looting stores where food is kept.

Can you blame them for helping themselves?

Should these stores of food have been requisitioned by the authorities and distributed to the needy rather than waiting for the needy (and greedy?) to help themselves?

12th Nov 2013, 17:18
No, I don't blame them.

In some ways, knowing how big this storm was and the days they had to prepare,
I am a bit surprised that the response isn't faster but that is just an observation from what we see in the media.

Unlike the Tsunami, they knew this was going to be big and bad.

tony draper
12th Nov 2013, 17:23
We dont seem to have any bother getting News and Camera teams into the place double quick.

12th Nov 2013, 17:50
This BBC report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-24899006) concerning all the aid that's supposedly "coming in", what didn't surprise me very much was this advice from the Phillipine Red Cross: The Philippines Red Cross "Survival Tips"

If your house was destroyed, make sure that it is already safe and stable when you enter. If it's completely destroyed and flatenned by super-Typhoon, please remove your dirty shoes before entering said flattened abode...?!

Beware of dangerous animals such as snakes that may have entered your house (or ask an ex. Filipino PM to borrow a pair of her (+/-4,000 pairs of designer shoes) before entering...

Watch out for live wires or outlet immersed in water. Yes, do hold live and neutral wires together for a few minutes amusedly, instead of looking for food. Or wait 2 months or more for the Phillipine govenment to re-establish electricity supplies.

Report damaged electrical cables and fallen electric posts to the authorities. You're kidding now, right?!

Do not let water accumulate in tyres, cans or pots to avoid creating a favourable condition for mosquito breeding. Hey, until the Phillipine government restores potable water supplies, that's our only source of water...?![/
High-lighting and comments are my own above.

As usual, the well-known charities and NGOs "are fighting over" charter jets to transport supplies (whether or not really required) from western Europe to the area involved. As opposed to perhaps sourcing these emergency supplies closer to the region.

Once again, (I have to hand "it" to the USA), it'll be a US carrier, or several US warships which will make a serious difference to the situation on the ground. But they're taking a while getting there (I thought the USA had at least 1 major base in the Phillipines and "owned" that part of the Pacific) considering we're at D+4/5? :confused:

So far as the "official" government aid goes so far. The UK's own offers and commitments (£10 millions) hardly match, and far from exceed what her MPs and other HM government employees manage to squirrel away themselves or on behalf of their "clients" on an annual basis IMHO. That should be a joke, only it's not funny anymore.

PS. My niece is OK. And looking forward "to getting out of there ASAP" as she is just a volunteer "environmental planning specialist", not a "front-line" Red Cross or other NGO volunteer who excel in rescue efforts etc.

12th Nov 2013, 17:59
"As usual, the well-known charities and NGOs "are fighting over" charter jets to transport supplies (whether or not really required) from western Europe to the area involved."

With the number of jets available in the world and the advance notice, I am surprised this wasn't already done / organised as Plan A.

Good to hear your niece is OK :ok:

12th Nov 2013, 18:10
(I thought the USA had at least 1 major base in the Phillipines

Not any more, they have been closed for years. The Phillipine government tried to raise the rent to about a zillion dollars a year and with that coupled with the volcano that destroyed Clark AFB, ended US Military bases in the Phillipines.

Closest US Air Force Base is in Guam. To be honest, I don't know where the closest major US Naval Base is.

The aircraft carrier USS George Washington is headed toward the region with massive amounts of water and food (MREs), but the Pentagon said it won't arrive until Thursday. Which will be tomorrow our time.

Great news about your niece. :ok:

12th Nov 2013, 18:15
Apparently the Royal Navy destroyer going from Singapore is expected to arrive in 5 days, according to one news bulletin. Maybe they should row a bit harder.......Or start sooner.

12th Nov 2013, 18:20
Japan is the closest big one, with ships, people and stores etc.

I suppose it helps a lot that you not only have "can do" people like the Marines
but also the ships and the ability to get them and the stores on and off the ship
to shore.

12th Nov 2013, 18:22
Communications still limited

Ramon Anquilan DU1UGZ, of the Philippines Amateur Radio Association (PARA), reports that among the chaos HERO (Ham Emergency Radio operators) stations are helping authorities and residents.

In Tacloban the capital of Leyte which was smashed by winds, its streets filled by ocean surges and is now a swamp-like smelling mess.

Ramon DU1UGZ said that RADNET with Nathan Eamiguel DU5AOK, Vilma Eamiguel DU5VIE, and the members of their local club are working hard.

"Their HF station is located on the second floor of the Tacloban City Hall, powered by a generator maintained by the local government unit. Two metre band communications is simplex because there is no electricity to power their repeater.

"The VHF members serve as field personnel who go on various errands - verification of requested information, liaison work, and bits and ends.

"The officers led by Nathan DU5AOK dispatch their members based on the priority traffic handled by the HF station."

He said the Tacloban HERO station has been used by the Red Cross to track a relief vehicle verifying the welfare of its volunteers who were stopped and ransacked by those impatient for aid to arrive.

Other requests for help came from the National Telecommunications Commission (NTC) regional office in Tacloban that needed hand-held radio contacts.

In his report he talks of another local club ACCESS 5 attached to responding government agencies and relief organisations. A military HF station is linked with the National Disaster Risk Reduction and Mitigation Council (NDRRMC) which is located inside Camp Aguinaldo in Quezon City.

"However ACCESS 5 is using VHF very effectively acting as guides for rescue and retrieval teams in the field, just like some RADNET volunteers," said Ramon DU1UGZ.

In Eastern Samar, Lester Price DV5PO (also ZL5PO) based in Borongan is providing valuable situation reports. Lester and his wife had a very lucky escape - they held on to the doors of their house for four hours until the surge waters receded, that claimed around 500 lives in the coastal barangay or village alone.

Another third HF station activated by the Department of Science and Technology (DOST) is using equipment from Nathan DU5AOK and his friend Dominique walked half a day to the government centre in Palo and the DOST Regional Office. Dominique, who is actually the office driver, and the Regional Director, Dr Eduardo Esparancilla alternate as operators.

In DU7 (Cebu, Bohol and Negros Oriental islands including the island province of Siquijor), the Cebu Amateur Radio League (CARL) has dispatched a team to the Municipality of Bantayan - located in the northern tip of Cebu.

This municipality is the hardest hit in Cebu with an estimated 90 per cent of structures levelled. The CARL team (previously reported on) is handling HF traffic. Another component is the Chocolate Hills Amateur Radio League (CHARL) based in Tagbilaran City in Bohol - an area struck by an intensity 7.2 earthquake recently.

The club station DU7BC along with its members Gerry Marmito DU7AU, Ador Lamoste DU7AL are ready to monitor and relay messages between Tacloban and the principal receiving stations.

The third DU7 component is from Dumaguete City. Roy Alcantara DU7DDJ together with James DU7JGU (Island Province of Siquijor) are leading NORAD-7 with long range communications to the Dumaguete local government unit passing traffic from Tacloban to their area in Negros island. NORAD-7 members also act as field operators and runners.

In DU6 (Panay, Negros Occidental and neighbouring islands) heard are Bobby Garcia DU6BG in Iloilo, Iver Astronomo DV6ILA and Arnel DV6WAV in the Roxas Provincial Capitol as they are embedded with the Provincial Disaster Risk Reduction and Mitigation Council (PDRRMC).

Scattered all over the archipelago of the Philippines are stations receiving outgoing traffic from Tacloban and the other affected areas.

Among them are Jojo DU1VHY, Thelma DU1IVT, Romy Isidro DV1SMQ and Max 4F1BYN - acting as the main receiving stations on a rotational basis since HERO activation began.

Other stations are also active in receiving outbound welfare traffic, mainly to inform family members and relatives of their conditions - Totie DV1TEE, Lito DU4DF, Atty. Albert DU4ABA, Bobby DU6BG, and Ramon DU1UGZ.

On standby as relays are Doc Piciong DV9DOC, Marlu DU8WX, Butch DU1RP (PARA SecGen on his mobile station in Davao City), and others. Another facet of the operations is the use of Echolink by CARE-4 in Naga City (DU4) and COMPASS in Tondo, Manila (DU1).

Ramon DU1UGZ said, "Basically, the Tacloban and other stations in the disaster areas permit only outbound traffic as priority messages.

"This is a policy decision by NTS Co-Chair Jojo DU1VHY and as requested by RADNET. We can classify the messages as follows: We Survived Messages, institutions/government agencies to their central or partner offices in Manila, and urgent requests for specific form of assistance or relief items.?

The relief and retrieval operations are moving slowly and the HERO operations are probably going to last a week or more from today.

He said that Telecoms companies are steadily restoring cellular mobile services and today there was intermittent limited coverage in Tacloban.

"As the primary telecoms services are restored, there will be less reliance on the amateur radio service in Tacloban.

"This will mean a more difficult period because the remote areas not reached yet by government and other agencies will now demand communication links.

"Our assets will be thinly spread resulting in gaps which only a robust service such those found in first world countries," said Ramon DU1UGZ.

Currently an average of one to two minutes is spent per message, and depending on band conditions, the rate of traffic per hour would be 40 to 60 messages.

A more in-depth analysis is not possible until all HERO stations are closed and submit their log details.

Ramon DU1UGZ notes that news media has started to notice ham radio, but don't understand that the HERO network is playing an important role in the disaster.

"Although there's some very brief TV exposure they are yet to adequately report on the voluntary service it provides, and the emergency communications to the agencies and community in times of disaster," he said.

12th Nov 2013, 18:24
con-pilot wrote:

The aircraft carrier USS George Washington is headed toward the region with massive amounts of water and food (MREs),

MRE's? They're giving them MRE's?

I'd rather starve to death. :}

12th Nov 2013, 18:28
"MRE's? They're giving them MRE's?

I'd rather starve to death. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif"

Yes, well, they are currently starving to death so maybe MRE's
now look like a better option !!!

12th Nov 2013, 18:30
con wrote:

I don't know where the closest major US Naval Base is.

As far as I know, con, the only US Navy station in that area of the world is Sembawang Naval Base in Singapore.

Lonewolf50, is that accurate?


Eating my cat would look better than eating an MRE!!! (Not that I have a cat because I can't stand the little buggers.)

12th Nov 2013, 18:39
MRE's? They're giving them MRE's?

There were a few times that I thought that MREs were manta from heaven I was so hungry. Not that I'd like a steady diet of the things. Some are really not all that bad, but some of the others, :uhoh:.

But if you're sitting in the remains of your home, having not eaten for three or four days, MREs will work.

And when it comes to dried fish heads or MREs, I'll take the MRE. :p

And they are a hell of a lot better than the old K-rations and C-rations of World War Two through Viet Nam. My dad used to bring home K and C rations from time to time. About the only thing good in them was the tuna.

12th Nov 2013, 18:43

I was still eating C-Rats when I first enlisted in '79. They remained on the menu for a few years after. Having said that, I'd much rather be forced to eat an MRE than C-Rats, the latter of which had some pretty nasty shit in it. The "spaghetti and meat balls" being about the worst known to mankind. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

12th Nov 2013, 18:44
The Aussie version of MRE's were so much better than the old C Rations.

I ironically my GF happened to mention some thing was like "rubber cheese" the other day. I promptly said yes, have eaten heaps of it out of a tin in the Army and it was like a very bad version of Edam !!!

I used to melt it in the tin, made it much more edible !!!

The date on some of the C Rations I got given in the mid - late 80's :rolleyes:

12th Nov 2013, 18:48

I remember reading the date on several C-Rat boxes, back in the '79-84' time frame, with several coming to mind: 10/12/63. 2/18/68. :eek::eek::eek:

12th Nov 2013, 18:54
Yep, that would work for me as well. I vaguely remember something from the late 50's as well, like 58 or 59, it was tinned and I think the big tins from the big boxes !!!

12th Nov 2013, 19:33
It would seem that the logistics problem of getting the emergency rations to where they are needed is the inadequacy of the airport at Tacloban.

Heavy lift helicopters are needed - are there none within flight distance of the Philippines?

Of course there are other regions than Tacloban that have been devastated, so further distribution centres will be needed.

I believe that the capital of the Philippines (Manila) was relatively (if not completely) unscathed, therefore one presumes that there remains elements of (military) infrastructure that are intact.

Are we getting the full story by the media? Or are they sensationalising what is not happening?

On Monday, two U.S. C-130 transport planes filled with relief supplies and a contingent of troops flew from Manila's Vilamor air base to the city of Tacloban, on the eastern seaboard, which was heavily damaged in what may prove to be the deadliest storm in the history of the Philippines.

The members of the 3rd Marine Expeditionary Brigade were among the first outside help in what is expected to be a major aid mission in coming days and weeks.

12th Nov 2013, 19:41
Once again, (I have to hand "it" to the USA), it'll be a US carrier, or several US warships which will make a serious difference to the situation on the ground. But they're taking a while getting there (I thought the USA had at least 1 major base in the Phillipines and "owned" that part of the Pacific) considering we're at D+4/5? :confused:


He did say he will return, even if only figuratively, now...

12th Nov 2013, 19:46
"the inadequacy of the airport at Tacloban."

The US marines will have the airport up and running in no time
if the story about the Radar and the lights is true.

I am surprised that more helicopters are being seen. The military in the various countries around have a fair few, some must be available.

12th Nov 2013, 19:46
Canadian disaster-relief team moving ?incredibly fast,? Baird says - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-sending-dart-team-transport-plane-to-help-in-philippines-relief/article15378804/)

“Obviously, we’ve moved incredibly fast, probably faster than we’ve ever moved,” Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird said on Monday. “And we’re not going to get into arcane bureaucratic discussions about paperwork and what not. There’s people who need our help, and we’re going to do all we can to provide assistance.”

Meanwhile, in related news, UN personnel has been spotted in various Mercedes dealerships eying SUV's for delivery to Philippines by January.

12th Nov 2013, 19:50
I liked this bit ! forward thinking if ever you had some.

"Prime Minister Stephen Harper decided to send DART even before an official request was received from the Philippines."


A shyte load closer in Singapore than Canada, that is for sure.

12th Nov 2013, 20:12
Con Pilot -
The US bases were closed down not because of raised rent - there never was a rental for the bases. After years of negotiation a rental for the bases was agreed after which the Pinatubo eruption destroyed Clark.Finally the Philippine Senate voted not to ratify the agreement as in the words of one of them 'We wanted to look like nationalists as we did not believe they would actually leave'.It was a disaster for the Subic area as it left thousands without jobs - it was the biggest US naval base outside the USA mainland. The Koreans now use the facilities for ship repair - they exchanged one group of foreign employers for another -some nationalism. Philippine politicians have a great propensity for shooting themselves in the foot.

12th Nov 2013, 20:15
Didn't the Phillipines try to get the US Navy to come back ?

And I think they also now use the port ?

Either way, it was a bloody stupid move on the Phili Gov't !!!

Solid Rust Twotter
12th Nov 2013, 20:23
Company I flew for developed a system called 'Snowdrop' where around 60000 to 80000 individual food sachets could be airdropped into vulnerable areas. Seems like this would be a good time to use it.

12th Nov 2013, 20:24
he date on some of the C Rations I got given in the mid - late 80's

500N,in the late seventies when I was in the Army cadets,we were given 10 man ration packs with a year stamp of 1945 ! Not spoiled,and were actually pretty good all things considered.The fruit cake tin always vanished before anyone saw it though.B*stards !

It is possible that newer rations were put in the old boxes,I don't know.

12th Nov 2013, 20:32

"10 man ration packs"


That was what I was looking for when I said "big tins" :O

They tasted OK as well. I doubt they switched boxes as they
are sealed and I think the date stamp was on the tins.

12th Nov 2013, 20:37
The number of fatalities has now been revised down to around 2,500.

13th Nov 2013, 16:38
For once, I myself (together with most Filipinos perhaps today) probably mostly regret for whatever reasons that there are no longer important US military bases in the Phillipines, and the availability of their rapid logistics capabilities' to deliver crucial supplies most recently. :sad:

Now that I know that my niece is safe (she still has to get a flight out from northern Samar though), I believe that the battles over US "colonialism" have been over-done, beginning with my own past complaints along these lines. :sad:

Nevertheless, after logging-off here, I'm going to finish-off the remaining south American 700g. cooked-prawns, together with the French omelette (incorporating fresh tomatoes, chicken slices etc.) which I cooked yesterday evening. Just in case my irresponsible niece (probably safe but maybe hungry) is watching the forum.

PS. The US Navy are mostly welcome everywhere. Just ensure that you come in peace mostly...?! :ok:

13th Nov 2013, 17:02
airship wrote:

I believe that the battles over US "colonialism" have been over-done, beginning with my own past complaints along these lines.

Your sins are forgiven. (Bruto? Put away the waterboarding mechanisms as they're no longer needed. airship has atoned for his sins.)

The US Navy are mostly welcome everywhere. Just ensure that you come in peace mostly

A US Navy Destroyer kind of pre-supposes not coming in peace, eh? Considering the two words - Destroyer and peace - are sort of mutually-exclusive. :ok:

13th Nov 2013, 17:42
PS. The US Navy are mostly welcome everywhere. Just ensure that you come in peace mostly...?!

They always come, seeking peace. The problem is, that sometimes, they have to win a war to get peace. That's the business they're in.

13th Nov 2013, 17:46
On first glance, I read that as 'they always come seeking a piece'......

13th Nov 2013, 18:47
'they always come seeking a piece'......

That as well. :p

13th Nov 2013, 19:01
Seeking a piece? US Navy? Do we all mean seeking a piece of that bar of soap which fell into the shower and needs someone to bend over and..... pick it up?


Solid Rust Twotter
13th Nov 2013, 20:38
You refer perhaps to the flash of purple pimpled ranger butt cheek beneath a frilly pink tutu which causes palpitations among they navy lads, Mr Rock?

13th Nov 2013, 20:43
Ahhhh, how did I know that SRT would crawl out from under his S. African rock and spew forth with some sort of Ranger bullshit? Too hot under the rock, SRT?
Tsssss. Tsssss.


PS: US Army Rangers don't have pimples on their butts. Since we are as pure as the driven snow, our asses mimic that purity. No purple pimples, no pockmarks and no blemishes to be found. (Aside from a few shrapnel marks taken in the ass by a few of the less fortunate Rangers)

13th Nov 2013, 20:52

I left it for SRT to provide the humour today :O

"Pure as driven snow" yeah, right !

Solid Rust Twotter
13th Nov 2013, 20:57
Soft as a baby's bottom then, Mr Rock? Says it all really...:suspect:

Bunch of girly men. In my day... witter... dribble...:}

13th Nov 2013, 21:02
No, not soft as a baby's butt, SRT. Leather-like instead. The soft as a baby's ass was on a different thread. Are you dyslexic? :}:}:}

13th Nov 2013, 21:03

The Q stores in Ranger units have huge supplies of Johnsons Baby Oil
and Johnsons Baby Powder because they use so much of it to keep
tose lily white butts nice for when the US Marines come and visit ;)

13th Nov 2013, 21:05
The Q stores 500N? WTF is that? Sounds rather queeny. Is that what Aussie SF's visit, a Q store? "Ohhh lads, let's pop on over to the Q store and get some cupcakes."


Solid Rust Twotter
13th Nov 2013, 21:07
Ah, selling their bottoms to sailors. Explains everything.....:}

'Specially those pink tutus!:ooh:

13th Nov 2013, 21:10

Do you know where that photo of the Ranger in a Pink Tutu is ?

I can't seem to find it yet I am sure I downloaded it for future use !!!

13th Nov 2013, 21:11
Q store is where you go and get anything the Army provides in Oz.As to why it's called a Q store ? Perhaps an abbreviation of the 'Quartermaster store' ?

13th Nov 2013, 21:14

TWT has it :ok:

I think you keep it simple and call it "supply", I suppose they don't want to
over tax you brains with complicated words !

Solid Rust Twotter
13th Nov 2013, 21:15
I try very hard not to think of those purple pimples peeping out from beneath that tutu, Mr Nitro.

Yup, quartermaster store is what it is. 'Q' might also stand for the amount of time spent standing in line to be told they don't have what you need.

13th Nov 2013, 21:20
Agree re queues !!!

It could also mean / stand for Question ?

Because you can ask as many questions as you like,
the answer is always the same.

"Yes, I have that but I can't give it to you
because the next bloke might want it" :O

13th Nov 2013, 21:32
Ah, we call those "Q" things either PX (Post Exchange for sundry items) or Commissary (for food items).

No "Q"ueen-ing about for us. We're real men! :}:}:}

500N? Over tax my brain? What's a brain? :E

13th Nov 2013, 21:33
Oh dear! What DID I start by misreading something!

13th Nov 2013, 21:35

You didn't start anything, rest assured. It's just that it takes a concerted effort to show those of lesser manhood who the real men of the world are. It's cyber-bullying at its finest. :ok:

13th Nov 2013, 21:38
"It's cyber-bullying at its finest."

It's the technology equivalent of inter service and inter unit banter
that is carried out on military courses and in drinking establisments :O

13th Nov 2013, 21:42
Amen to that, 500N. :ok:

When I was at Fort Benning Georgia - home not only to the US Army Ranger school but also to the US Army Infantry school as well as the US Army Airborne school - when it was time to unwind in either the club or outside the gates the amount of shit we, as Rangers, used to give the low-life Infantry type (which all Rangers are of course) was horrendous. We'd really give 'em hell. Right girls?!!!

13th Nov 2013, 21:46
And if you didn't, you needed a kick up the arse !

Inter service banter is great for building esprit de corps.

Problem is when you operate with the Airforce and the Navy,
it gets interesting when they are taking you out on a boat or
throwing you out of an aircraft.

Oh, sorry we didn't turn the ship so you could off load your boats
on the leeward side !!!

13th Nov 2013, 21:47
For the benefit of the ignorant Limey,

What's the US difference between Rangers, Airborne and Infantry? And where do the Marines fit in - or are they soldiers sent to be seasick?

13th Nov 2013, 22:00
Rangers, Airborne and Infantry

Infantry are just GRUNTS

Airborne are GRUNTS that can insert by air

RANGERS, well, who knows ;)
Insert by air, good at Mountain warfare ..............

US Marines are part of but separate from the US Navy.
Do a lot of the same stuff as the Royal Marines but on a bigger scale !

How you directly relate the US Forces to UK Forces, the only
clear one is Airborne are like the UK Paras.

Not sure what the Royal Marines would be the same as
because they cross over US Army and Navy roles.

tony draper
13th Nov 2013, 22:15
So one simply has to trick Rangers onto flat ground and they's buggad? :rolleyes:
Our Marines were there to shoot the Sailors if they mutinied.:uhoh:

13th Nov 2013, 23:03
The Royal Marines on the Royal Yacht Britannia were there to provide the music. :E

14th Nov 2013, 13:39
radeng wrote:

What's the US difference between Rangers, Airborne and Infantry? And where do the Marines fit in - or are they soldiers sent to be seasick?

Infantry are ground-pounders as you undoubtedly already know.

US Army Rangers assigned to a Ranger battalion (there are 3. In my day there were only two.) are infantrymen (or related) by MOS. (Military Occupational Specialty) Thus, you have the 1st, 2nd and 3rd which comprise the, now, 75th Ranger Regiment.

However, those who attend Ranger school and graduate (if they're damn lucky) don't all come from Infantry units. Ranger school is open to all candidates from ANY service and ANY MOS. Once these non-infantry type graduate from Ranger school they earn the right (privilege) to wear the Ranger tab on their uniform. However, if one wants to be part of the 75th Ranger Regiment only Infantrymen can do so. (Or a related MOS for support roles)

Airborne is airborne. Anyone can attend Airborne school. Rangers MUST qualify for airborne training and must pass as well.

And, contrary to what 500N claimed, and Tony made a comment about, Rangers do not only fight in mountainous terrain. There is a so-called 'Mountain phase' of Ranger training but there is also the 'Benning phase', the 'Florida phase' and the 'Desert phase' all of which teach different skills for various environments.




14th Nov 2013, 14:13
The USS George Washington has arrived off the coast of the Philippines this morning. Much-needed aid, and search and rescue teams, have begun to be deployed.


14th Nov 2013, 14:44
Meanwhile the British MOD has diverted the (soon to be) redundant HMS Illustrious from the Horn of Africa to the Philippines.

14th Nov 2013, 18:23
500N -
They could not get the USN to return as both the small and the large drydocks were pulled out very rapidly. It was a total screw up - the Philippine government was completely unprepared for the US forces leaving. There was no plan to take responsibility for security etc., the result being that both Clark and Subic were simply looted. A fully equipped hospital was left to be used - completely wrecked,even the electrical power cables were dug up and sold as scrap. Be aware that the political system of the Philippines is there for the enrichment of the politicians - any improvement in the condition of ordinary people is coincidental.Has the worst corruption rating in SE Asia - about on par with Nigeria.

14th Nov 2013, 20:08
So, rgb, there's no truth in the story about the mil aircraft calling ATC on a mil frequency and asking "What time is it?" to get the response

"If you're army it's 3pm, if you're air force it's 1500 and if you're a Marine, the big hand is at Mickey Mouse and the little hand is at Goofy"

14th Nov 2013, 20:11
The US Army uses the 24 hour clock* as well, radeng. But I get the gist of your funny!

(* except when being woken up before the rooster crows, which is referred to as Zero-dark-thirty)

Solid Rust Twotter
15th Nov 2013, 08:38
For the benefit of the ignorant Limey,

What's the US difference between Rangers, Airborne and Infantry? And where do the Marines fit in - or are they soldiers sent to be seasick?

Different coloured tutus and frillier undies.

The Royal Marines on the Royal Yacht Britannia were there to provide the music.

Lots of cabbage served in the mess, eh?:}

15th Nov 2013, 08:38

You are really looking for a bashing tonight :O

15th Nov 2013, 08:44
Apparently the Royal Navy destroyer going from Singapore is expected to arrive in 5 days, according to one news bulletin. Maybe they should row a bit harder.......Or start sooner. - that is 17 November - I am surprised at the time taken to provide the essential 'machinery'.

Whilst I appreciate it is 'correct' to wait for the parent nation to 'request' aid, given the 5 days 'notice' of the storm I would have hoped that the US and UK at least would have loaded and dispatched suitable ships well in advance so as to be in the area. Surely no-one thought the Philippines (?anyone?) would be able to sort this out themselves?

Does the world need to re-think international 'disaster relief'? In this situation I would have thought a floating helicopter base or two, medical facilities and some assault ships loaded with essential supplies and machinery plus landing craft should be dispatched almost immediately.

15th Nov 2013, 09:24

I agree.

Even the Phili Gov't spokeman admitted on TV that the Gov't was not prepared.

As you say, they had 5 days to prepare unlike the Tsunami which hit without

Ancient Mariner
15th Nov 2013, 09:39
The Philippine Government will never be prepared for anything except to fill their own pockets. They quite frankly don't care shlt about their people, it is all about me, me, me. Every year I lived in Manila was the same story when the hurrican season started. Complete and utter chaos, and when it was over, promises, promises, promises that "next year....... "
That country is politically rotten to the core, and with the aid of the Catholic Church it will remain so.

tony draper
15th Nov 2013, 09:53
Seems to be a thing that afflicts all governments when disaster strikes,remember reading about a bad earthquake in Osaka I think it was, a highly organized and disciplined society like Japan, local authorities got their act together pretty quick and did what they could but central government seemed paralyzed for days.
Senior Civil servant decides as it is a earthquake therefore no blame can be possibly attached to his dept for same decides to do something,phone on desk rings ,'you cant do that you do not have the authority'
Head of another dept looks up his remit, Earthquakes?,nowt to do with me, phone on desk rings,'Do something! 'sorry you need a different dept. nowt to do with my people, ect ect,and so it goes on.
Eventually they hand it over to the military and things start to move,
and when it's all over?
Lessons will be learned.

Ancient Mariner
15th Nov 2013, 10:04
Trust me Tony, lessons will not be learned in the Philippines. The politicians, police, military and bureaucrats simply do not care.

15th Nov 2013, 11:07
Well, I saw a perfect example of the BS that goes on tonight on the TV.

A reporter was on an island, the first island to cop it (so one of the east islands
in the chain).

Things are as bad as anywhere else, not a house standing, no food or shelter etc.

Now, while they were there a US Marine Osprey landed at the airport
- or what might have been the airport. Guess what ?

A 4 Person assessment team got out, I think UN, to determine the needs :ugh:
No, food, no, water, no nothing on the aircraft.

It loaded one old lady in a wheelchair who needed dialysis and that was it
and then took off, having said not able to take anyone else.

Now, 5 days warning this thing was going to hit.
Everyone knew it was going to be big.

WTF are aid agencies sending assessment teams in for when it
is patently obvious what is required.

The managed to get a comment out of a US Marine Brigadier General
- who looked very busy and lots of activity around - and he said that
getting the stuff out was the problem at the moment and lucky it had
rained hard as people were able to collect their own water.

I think everyone is right, the Phil Gov't couldn't give a damn.

Why haven't they mobilised the whole of the Phillipines Military ?
Surely they have boats, troops etc that haven't been affected ?

Anyway, rant over.

tony draper
15th Nov 2013, 11:21
Wasn't there some criticism of Washington's tardIness after the New Orleans thing?
As in all of nature,the greater the mass of the organization the greater the inertia.:uhoh:

15th Nov 2013, 11:25
I call it Paralysis by analysis.

When you have a military, you only have to give one order and it should happen.

The problem is, no one wants or can make that decision so it has to go to the very top and of course they don't do anything unless they get some Kudos out of it.

Once the decision is made, shyte happens because that is the way the Mil works, hence why once the decision to send in the US marines, it happens.
and they get there. All Militaries have the resources and man power, they
just need to be told what to do with it and then let them at it.

The other problem in the US if of course competing Gov't departments !!!

15th Nov 2013, 15:08
Tony D:

There was the disaster in New Orleans, yes.

But last year we had "Superstorm Sandy" which the National Weather Service had been warning the Northeastern United States about for a week. You would have thought with that much notice people would have prepared properly.

Parts of New Jersey were destroyed as well as smaller sections of Long Island, NY. Granted, the storm was much more destructive than forecast but, still, you think people would have learned after New Orleans.

tony draper
15th Nov 2013, 15:17
Indeed that also probably plays a part, going into denial seems to be part of our makeup.
We lime juicers are notorious for moaning about the weather and we shouldn't really
"Mum the weatherman says there's a storm coming"
"Best sit down then I'll put the kettle on and make a cup of tea"
That's the English for yer.

15th Nov 2013, 17:50
What saddens me most is that every Filipino/a I've ever had the pleasure to meet, whether on a ship or yacht, in the service of a western household and family and even, just once, in a nightclub in Cyprus (but a very long time ago)...

You couldn't hope to meet a more apparently docile, intelligent (most of them speak several languages) and friendly people. I would rather recommend employing a Filipino engineer than his western European counter-part (UK, French or east-European) in most cases. Their mere long experience in many industries and professions outways most diplomas we issue here in many cases for our youngsters with a bark louder than their bite.

Many countries in Europe might one day be in the situation of the Phillipines, governed by completely corrupt and incapable regimes, their populations seeking employment in other countries...?! Today, Saudi Arabia, and most Gulf countries abuse Filipinos, together with the others: Nepalese, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis - they're using them to build their new infra-structures cheaply (whilst continuing to trying to convince everyone else) that their construction booms are by virtue of worldwide demand by global companies etc. to establish themselves in these places.

The truth, is that we in most western European countries, cannot and would not stoop so low as to allow the cheap, sometimes almost "slave" labour here for similar infrastructure or important building projects as conducted in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states etc. They feel OK about it all, managing an immigrant population sometimes composing between 80-90% of the population. In the UK and much of western Europe, we complain about 10-15%...?!

Before leaving the EU for good in 2015-2017, it would be nice if the UK's current and seemingly and increasingly ignorant population take the time to truly look at their own situation. And on which side the slice of toast is butterred... :ok:

15th Nov 2013, 17:58

You could say the same about a lot of things that are so different.

15th Nov 2013, 20:25
Ancient Mariner -
You are absolutely correct regarding Filipino politicians - they have created a self perpetuating kleptocracy passed on from father to son.The only hope is that one day a young officers coup will succeed and the whole rotten bunch along with the judiciary will be executed.They spent so much time scheming to defraud the taxpayer of millions of dollars they have forgotten what they were elected for. All they appear to have done in the present crisis is to shout 'help' then stand back and let the foreign aid agencies get on with it. The UN seems to have learned something - they have instructed their staff in the Philippines to give nothing to Philippine government agencies. A week after the Typhoon struck no one seems to have been appointed to co-ordinate relief efforts or any kind of command centre set up. I have been in the Philippines during Volcanic eruptions,earthquakes previous Typhoons and coup attempts and it has always been the same - utter ineptitude. The Filipino people deserve better but they keep on selling their vote to the same crooks so perhaps they get the government they deserve.

Metro man
16th Nov 2013, 07:08
Mormon Relief had trucks full of supplies on the road to New Orleans BEFORE cyclone Katrina had hit. Compare that with the US government's efforts.

Up to the 1960s the Philippines was second only to Japan in Asia, in terms of development. Manila has rich and poor areas, Makati is comparable to Singapore with smoked glass skyscrapers and designer brands, but you don't have to go very far to find children begging in rags and whole families living on the street.

For a local the dream is to qualify in something and get a job overseas or marry a foreigner. Every town, even if it is only one street with no building above three stories will still have a Western Union to cater for the money being sent back to relatives from those working abroad.

A spectacularly beautiful country, rich in natural resources, with so much potential and so badly run.

16th Nov 2013, 09:03
Metro Man -
Badly run is not an adequate description of the Philippines. As you say a spectacularly beautiful country but run by the most amoral (and immoral) politicians in the world. The whole system is geared to enrich politicians from the President right down to barangay captains - it has no other purpose.The best 4 years of my adult life were spent outside Manila - that is when I learned about total corruption. The politicians are corrupt, the judiciary are corrupt,the military are corrupt,the civil service is corrupt and the police force. It is impossible to make the slightest difference to the system - anyone making a serious attempt would be rapidly assassinated.For a foreigner like myself with residence it is a marvelous place to be - just do not get involved in business or local affairs.

Solid Rust Twotter
16th Nov 2013, 11:01
A spectacularly beautiful country, rich in natural resources, with so much potential and so badly run.

You've just described Africa.:(

16th Nov 2013, 12:44
maybe Kipling had a point

"Pick up the white man's burden
Send forth the best ye may..."

addressed to the US on the annexation of the Philippines....

16th Nov 2013, 13:33
That just about sums it up - the only difference is that the Philippines has some redeeming features - the women for one.I struggle to think of a single redeeming feature of Nigeria for example.

Solid Rust Twotter
16th Nov 2013, 14:07
Pepper soup?

16th Nov 2013, 14:38
Had not thought of that -goat meat was my favourite,tried bushmeat but was a bit concerned as to what was in it after seeing what looked like charred bats and rats being sold at the roadside.

16th Nov 2013, 22:28

The suggestion in the joke was that the Army aren't clever enough to understand the 24 hour clock.....

Solid Rust Twotter
17th Nov 2013, 06:24
The real joke is that the air force have to get the room service waiter to explain it to them, while the ball park call of 'Tuesday' is normally accurate enough for us infantry types.

18th Nov 2013, 19:06
During hurricane Wilma's eye at west palm beach (PBI), we went outside and found the electrical meter on the ground but still connected to the pole and the ground spike.......simply pulled from the house and laid on the ground fully intact because a tree had fallen over the wire.

I cut the tree with a hacksaw and it worked surprisingly well but had to cut it's diameter with a 3 cuts around it and then remove the saw blade and use it by hand for the center.

While sweating whether some fool would fire up his generator and backfeed the neighborhood, I screwed two long lag bolts into a super long 2x4 in a "V" shape and used it to push/prop the electrical service against the house and quickly use a bunch of shackles with lag screws to bolt it back to the house.

If the electric company inspected the neighborhood and found services on the ground, your neighborhood went to the back of the line for restoration of service.

Then we walked 100 yards through a forklift company facility that borders our back yard to the main street to find people driving around and even had some guy who said....."now that it's over, I'm driving this van back to Miami" even though I told him it was just the eye and more was to come.

The eye diameter was so big you couldn't see the eye wall when it was centered over us.

Not sure what happened to him.

We had walked outside during the highest winds and played around until debris sailed past frighteningly close.

I threw a motley crue album into the air (it was warped) and it looked like the hand of god snatched it to the next county.

We looked at the church across the street and the metal cross on the top was bent about 35 degrees from the wind.

We engaged in a 10 minute firework war with a couple of guys securing their fireworks warehouse and went back in as the winds came back up for the second half joking that the church cross would soon crash through our roof and impale us.

When the storm was over, we looked at the church and the cross was now perfectly straight up.

18th Nov 2013, 19:11
Being in the eye of a cyclone, hurricane etc is an eerie experience.

Nothing quite like it as you can still see the winds and clouds outside the eye.