Life after Lion Air

[pfvspnf]

To all of the Lion Air pilots that have paid for their line training through agents , I ask you this ;

Have your colleagues successfully moved on to other carriers ? If so, does your pay to fly experience come up during interviews with other airlines ?

If you aren't being given take offs and landings how confident are you in your skills ?

Are they upgrading you guys or do you have to pay again for PIC "Line training "?

I'm not trying to be condescending , I'm just curious to know what the plan is after having paid so much money ...

[jack s]

with Lion's poor reputation on safety and training.. no airline will touch these poor guys.. they far worse with the Lion stamp on them compared to a zero hr CPL holder.
Lion Air stds on quality / safety / training are very poor and dropping everyday. And this does not help these young boys & girls :ugh::mad:pay to fly is a bad disease spreading all over Asia.:=

[Iver]

Have seen a few got on with Scoot apparently but had to pay for half of that 777 rating (no surprise - that PFT is well known). :ugh:

I guess if you can get significant landings/takeoffs in a 737-900ER at Lion Air over a few years and not put the aircraft in the water off Bali, you might have some good, marketable experience for your next career move... :yuk:

[Stalker_]

I can vouch for the Fly Dubai pilots, a fair few are ex Lion air.

And consider this point of view before judging any person at any airline, take a look at yourself in the mirror, say you are the best pilot in the world, just because the livery on the outer skin of the aircraft says Lion on it, does that really make you un-employable and a terrible pilot? come on!

[pfvspnf]

It's good to see people moving on from Lion Air, I don't agree with Pay to Fly but you guys did what you needed to do !

On the flip side , I was in the sim with one of these pay to fly wonders not too long ago not only could he not fly the airplane with the auto pilot and flight directors off , he didn't know SOPs or had any idea of how to do approaches. So my question is this, what exactly do you do during you line training ?

Many companies have stopped taking pay to fly people , it's unfair to those of you who actually have the skills to succeed elsewhere but we find that the majority of these candidates come with limited knowledge and a poor attitude .

So they are giving take offs and landings to FOs? What is the CRM like? Do you shut up and follow orders or do you work as a crew to resolve issues ?

[Samju]

Your OP has been aptly replied but it seems that you don't want to accept the reality like many others on this forum. Come on , change the things you can or accept the things you can not, but use your brain to know the difference.:rolleyes:

[TeaTowel]

It's bad to see people moving on from Lion Air, I don't agree with Pay to Fly but you guys did what you needed to do to **** other pilots over! And your friends, family and anyone trying to make a decent living in any profession.

[pfvspnf]

@samju? Accept reality ? I will never endorse pay to fly , these agents are going to be taught a lesson, it's just another accident waiting to happen.

The OP was more targeted to how other airlines look at your pay to fly choices, I know that EK looks down upon it but I wanted to hear feedback from those of you who have gone through it.

I was also interested in your line training / employment experience, You've paid $70,000 plus I would want to get my money's worth and get good TRIs during my sectors that will actually teach me things.

[Captaintcas]

After several bad experiences, the company I work for does not hire Pay to fly " pilot" passengers anymore...:ok:

Paying to work is a choice, and that choice more often than not is one that shows a lack of long term vision and a severe lack of responsibility towards your collegues and profession.

Ps. I work as a trainer for an EASA carrier with the best conditions in Europe for B737 FO's.

[twins9]

If co-pilots are not allowed to take off/land, what if the captain suffers a heart attack/stroke or just not feeling well enough to perform? What then?

[captjns]

If co-pilots are not allowed to take off/land, what if the captain suffers a heart attack/stroke or just not feeling well enough to perform? What then?

Repeat after me.... A-U-T-O-L-A-N-D:ok:

[Ragazzo]

or plainly call "I HAVE CONTROL" and reject :} (TO that is…)

[Stalker_]

Lion Pilots do share the sectors with captains.

Look a 250 hour fresher is never gonna be fully ready for the likes of a B737 straight out of flight school.

I am certain that the first 12 months must be very hard on these guys, & I am certain that a few would drop out, but after this time I sm sure these chaps are confident operators of the machine.

Wether its right or wrong way is not important, im certain that these pilots have more important career goals other than to keep the readers of pprune happy.

[VT-ASM]

Bad habits do catch up someday.....
Worth a read..Apparently the Colgan pilot, As well as the Pinnacle CRJ cowboys were P2F from Gulfstream airlines.

Airline that trained Buffalo crash pilot fined $1.3M - USATODAY.com (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-05-21-buffalo-crash_N.htm)

The name or the livery does not matter, But the bad ethics of these companies can kill the unfortunate SLF on board

[zondaracer]

Also, the Comair flight out of Lexington that took the wrong runway at night and crashed at the end of the runway had a former Gulstream P2F pilot in the cockpit.

[DragonFly-ing]

@ Zondaracer and VT-ASM, can you describe if these were P2F as well or are they trained in 'your' category' ? :}

UPS Crash A306 (http://avherald.com/h?article=466d969f&opt=7680)
or
BritAir CRJ7 (http://avherald.com/h?article=4579315d/0000&opt=7424)
or
ANA A320 Tailstrike on G/A (http://avherald.com/h?article=44a68305/0000&opt=7424)
or
Air France A330 hard landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=43bb2a4b/0000&opt=7424)
or
Emirates Tailstrike and RWY overrun on Take Off (http://avherald.com/h?article=416c9997/0009&opt=7424)
or
Air France A330 crash over the Atlantic (http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1/0071&opt=7168)

All mostly human errors I see.... doesn't really only hurt the 'P2F' guys, any more? Guess your not that immortal really Zondaracer or VT-ASM.... :eek:

That said, most guys in Lion got paid for the flying and only did the Typerating course before, same same as Ryan or Easyjet or Volotea etc.

Not taking away that the Bali incident was with a hardcore P2F guy (paying the Indian agent a fee to work every month during his employment) but his captain was not....

So...now to the point.. Lion Air pilots are from different make/build/flight school backgrounds... (WOW!) some in Lion Air will never move on, not pass a screening ever, stay in Indonesia and be a F.O.

Others did pass screenings, did new Typeratings, did well in groundschool and moved into other airlines :
- Turkish Airlines , about 40-50 guys joined (or are joining) THY in the past 8 months
- Scoot has 10+ guys
- Qatar has a fair share (15+) of Ex-Lion guys as F.O. 777 or F.O. A320 operating
- Hong Kong Airlines / Hong Kong Express has about 10+
- FlyDubai has 10+ on 737
- Jet2.com has 10+ on 737
- British Airways 6+ on Widebody second officers mostly
- Primera Air 3+ on the 737
- Oman Air 3+ on 737
- ArkeFly has 8+ on the 767 and 737
- Etihad 4+ on multiple widebody's
- Norwegian has 10+ on the 737's
- Emirates is having Lion Air guys
- Cathay Pacific 2+ as S.O.
- Air Baltic 4+
- Ethiopian 2+
- Garuda had 10+ guys, but had to lay-off/fire expats two years ago.
- Insel Air
.......etc....etc....

I you can fly you can make it... if you can't you get picked out and get stuck. P2F or not...

[pilotcpb]

i would hardly call that list you made of people who have moved on a success, most of those airlines are crap and not worthy of aspiration at all. youre gonna regret spending $70K to work for free, it will take you years to earn it all back :=

[captain.weird]

i would hardly call that list you made of people who have moved on a success, most of those airlines are crap and not worthy of aspiration at all. youre gonna regret spending $70K to work for free, it will take you years to earn it all back

Most of those airlines are crap?

The list from dragonflying did mention airlines like Qatar, Emirates, Etihad, British and Turkish. You are calling them crap?

For who do you wanna fly? Virgin Galactic?

Just :mad: the :mad::mad: up and read on :ugh:

[VT-ASM]

Quite an impressive list you got there..
The guys are P2F on the listed carriers as well ?? :}:}
No ? Jeez ! come on !
S:mad:rew up the industry more ! Spread the word !!
Well next step...(Not too far)
Airlines ask you to buy your own plane and work for free...:}
Bingo ! :D
I'm sure Lionair's got folks who have gone in the hard way. No offence to them.
But as attested in my previous posts, P2F has got to stop. :ugh::ugh:

[pilotcpb]

i am not throwing stones at lion air, and i am not trying to be nasty. its the P2F gig i have a problem with. please put this entire idea in financial perspective. spend $70K on "line training" for a few years, on top of whatever you already spent to learn to fly, and then support yourself for the duration of this "training" and you are looking at well over $100K spent, maybe getting close to $150K? and now how about the typical self funded TR most LCC seem to favor, better find another $30K to spend. you are heading towards financial ruin.

i have spoken with guys here at my airline who did that and even with the money we make, they will be paying off massive debts for quite a while. flying a 777 and living like a backpacker!! :yuk: better hope you dont lose your license/medical in the meantime.....

[pfvspnf]

Are you guys actually sharing sectors ? What are the commanders like? Do they let you make decisions ?

The decision making is what I am most concerned with. I will never fly on Lion Air.

Pay to fly will stop , it's an accident waiting to happen , the general public and the media will become more aware and regulators will soon ban the practice.

For those of you who have done well and moved on to other carriers, kudos to you, for those of you who are paying agents in India and have managed to scrape through your training please go get remedial training and improve your attitude!

Fly safe and don't be arrogant , there are so many other deserving people , instructors , bush pilots , commuter pilots and hard workers that are equal in every regard . You are not God's gift to aviation, you just had the financial ability to pay a middle man!

[smiling monkey]

Not taking away that the Bali incident was with a hardcore P2F guy (paying the Indian agent a fee to work every month during his employment)


And thereby, making a mockery and a joke of this once noble profession. There used to be a time when pilots took pride in utilizing their skills and experience to fly, for which their fare paying passengers entrusted them with their lives. P2Fs are a joke and a shame to the industry.

[pilotchute]

So including the ones that went to or are going to Turkish, only about 140 people from Lion Air have gone on to take jobs at other carriers? Considering the scheme has been around for 4 odd years now that isn't a good result. I have been told around 500 people have come through on different programs and around 250 are still there.

I know that the poster is trying to say that you can move on after Lion but I don't count Cathay as moving up! Some of the other airlines I wouldn't want to work for either. As mentioned before Scoot, make you pay all over again so are you really better off

The guys all madly trying to get out from Merpati and the glorious MA60 are learning fast that no one wants them with the questionable safety record, training and useless type rating they have.

[lingdee]

Well said dragonfly and thanks for providing the list . Clearly shows that it is non related to pay to fly pilots.

Those who do p2f , some are excellent pilots, just that they have no opportunity to be called up by an airline for whatever reason such as not being local when they are fresh out of flying school.

They took the risk despite all the naysayers and today have move on to world class airline as mention in the thread. Bear in mind that they need to pass all the sim,test and interviews before they are being offered which prove that they have the required standard.

Because they know if they did nothing, they can hang their blue license as a memento and give up their piloting dream and have to change career, burning all the cash they have paid for during CPL. There is no turning back. Getting a job today is so competitive.

Remember and I say again, they took the road less traveled and with their valuable NG hours, they call the shots now and can chose whichever airline they wish to apply.

And pilotchute, the 450 pilots in lion are not only Fo but expat captains as well. Most of the Fo are long gone and a lot are going to resign in the next few months.

[.81]

P2f or non P2f, everyone has the same interest....to fly. From all sides there are good ones and bad ones. Why should we downgrade a fellow aviator just because we do not fly some big shinny jet. Move on folks....

[stoneage]

pilotchute

but I don't count Cathay as moving up!

Whoa! I sense some bitterness there...

Good to see there is life after Lion Air:ok:

[twins9]

Cathay is not moving up? Speechless.

[pilotchute]

Well if I spent 80 thousand pounds on a CPL/IR and then 50 thousand USD's on a type rating and line training at a very average airline, I would want to be in the RHS at my next airline.

Cathay for a while there only required a CPL and 250 hours to be an SO. If I had spent the sort of money mentioned above and with 1500 hours NG in my book went and worked for Cathay, I would say I dropped back a step.

I applied to Cathay and got through the interviews but have given up on them for a while now. I'm not bitter I am just saying if I had 1500 NG hours I wouldn't even have bothered applying to them at all.

Get it?

[sierra5913]

Nothing wrong with P2F.

As long as the training is of a high standard. In fact if the financial risk is on your own head pilots will be more determined.

I can't help feel some are threatened by P2F pilots.

P2F is here to stay and no amount of fear mongering is going to stop it. P2F is going to be the norm even on legacy airlines in 10 years. Training will go from being a cost centre to a profit centre for airlines. Money talks, B***sh** walks.

Every person who has the desire and ability to fly should have the chance to be an airline pilot, not just those who can get by the gatekeepers in Human Resources.

[pfvspnf]

I think you need your head examined !

Nothing wrong in P2F?

If this was so great why don't airlines do this directly as opposed to going through sketchy agents ?

Good training ? Here's the thing pay2fly and good training do not go hand in hand, most of the time they just want to get you done and couldn't care less what you learn.

Go get a job the real way , go to the bush, go instruct , go pass real interviews and most of all don't feel you can buy your way through.

PIC pay2fly? You agree with that too ? It's by far one of the dumbest ideas of the 21st century .

It's on the way out , you are going to see more cadet programs , you may get carriers asking you to pay for your type rating but paid line training and employment should and will stop.

[Laker]

Obviously these guys have a terrible reputation amongst their pilot colleagues. Just make sure you let them know how you feel about their career decisions if you ever share a cockpit. One big reason so many pilots are afraid to cross a picket line is because nobody wants to be known as a scab for the rest of their career. Someone who will pay Lion Air 70k to sit in the cockpit and then spend a few years getting bent over by that outfit in order to get jet time quicker than those who do it the right way doesn't deserve much respect imho.

[jetjockey696]

I heard that P2F pilot has been part of management team, training department for some time.. they say he brown nose all the way up to managment and they made him Captain in break record time (within 1 and half year of joining as FO).

[brasmelzuit]

Are we talking about the same Mr. T? Apparently, chief of training thinks this Mr.T is very good at his job..

[jetjockey696]

No wonder indonesia aviation have stopped giving out license to expats..:ugh: with TOP GUN ace flying around. I heard he is not loved by the expats to. many have complain that he a S***T capt.

Chief of training thinks he going a good job.. because he is doing the job that no one wants.. glorified office boy. CHief of training dont need to come to office, and see the angry expats and indians.. he can stay at home..

[brasmelzuit]

Chief of training, Mr. D , and his 3 deputies, is doing it for extra money. Has the power to decide who's the capt, who's the instructors..etc..
Not even near as a safer place yet..
Stay away at all cost..over 90 jets they operate, with not enuff pilots to fly.
Time bomb is ticking..
There have been more than twice the aircraft went to stick shaker in flight!
N1 didnt react ,the speed was too slow. Luckily, the altitude still high, to recover...:ugh:

[pfvspnf]

Pay to fly, pay to command, pay to instruct , pay to management ! Where can I sign up for the packages deal ?

[jetjockey696]

..Might see a rape case in the future..if CAPT T... doesnt do his job...

tODAy... I heard that a Indian FO molested a flight attendant (grabbed her breast) on the way home to Taman Anggrek in Lion transport. Lucky the driver was there stop the molestation.

What i heard is that this FO see all FA as prostitues and treat them as such. I wonder what his wife think about a rape case..

[jack s]

the 3 Indian NG operators will not touch these P2F guys... so these kids are now in the fire with debt hanging on their heads.. :ugh::=

[theflight]

@ jack for your kind information 7 Indians got through assessment with jet airways and 2 joined spice in a last 1 month. So kindly get ur facts right and then post on this forum.

[Stalker_]

Cabin crew getting there breast's fondeled by the pilots, tell me something new

[flyboy_nz]

To all the 'Mavericks' who think P2f is not wrong, let me ask you this. If Lion air/Sriwijaya were conducting proper interviews with proper selection processes with sim checks, interviews, medicals etc... would you get in without paying a single cent?

If you answer yes to the above question, then why are you throwing money away? Cos obviously you are a cut above the rest and have what it takes. So, there's no need to pay.

If you answer no to the above question, then you are obviously not good enough and need to improve and you are cheating the system to get in. Daddy's wallet bought you that seat, not your skill or attitude.

Either way, you lose respect by going down the P2f route. A man's true test of his character is how determined he is that he will stick to his principles in life regardless of the hardships. For those of you that do not understand this or can not comprehend this, you shouldn't even be near an aircraft. Why? Because when you get put under pressure by management and or unsafe captains, you are the type that will sit there with your tail between your legs, too scared to say something less you lose your beloved shiny jet job. In other words a P*ssy.

[Stalker_]

Let's not dwell on whether it's the right way or the wrong way etc its "a way " for sure and a fair few ex=lion pilots have good jobs now, and I'm sure there families are very proud etc.


As for the hard work and correct attitude way, well I don't know of any airlines that took a pilot on because they had these qualities, all most of them care about are you flight hours these days, sure once you get invited to interview these qualities will give you an advantage.. sure.


Even if you have the hour requirements via instructing/bush flying etc that still does not fill the blank of the jet time required, a real catch 22 which will boggle new pilots for years to come.


I had a nice little job on the King Air out of Africa a few years ago, one day a chap came in to the office, said he had 50 hours on type and would work for food and water to get his hours up, I was let go a few weeks later and they took this guy on instead!!


point being this industry is full of corrupt injustice pain hurt frustration un-fairness, but the sheer love of flight keeps us coming back for more!! flying is a pure passion, I have never met a pilot that was not 100% committed to flying.


If you can get paid along the way it becomes the ultimate satisfaction!! as you will basically never "Work" again!! and believe me that's a nice feeling, especially if you have had the jobs I have had over the years, Kitchens, Taxis, parcel delivery!! no life man!

[Daygo]

Flyboy NZ.

Couldn't agree more, well said. :ok:

[TheBigD]

http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/1640/39725.PNG

[Stalker_]

The pilots that joined Lion Air through the likes of MSD, EJ, CFA where all taken on before the 250 hour rule came in to affect. the LT contracts have been out of action for a good year now.


Lion are only taking on Indo nationals as cadet pilots.


I personally think this was a nice opportunity for the people that could afford to do it. aviation is such a hard industry to get that 1st foot in the door and I am sure this program granted a lot of peoples dreams to come true. surely that is a good thing, but as I have learnt along my career path pilots tend to be very selfish sods and god forbid something good happen to a fellow pilot, not the case with my thinking I wish everyone all the best in the skies, that's just my airmanship! as to how you got there, I don't care if your passing your OPC checks and working hard that's fine with me, lets build a safer skies together.


I remember the first time I flew a big jet and its a magical feeling.


As mentioned above the program stopped now so I don't know what all the ill feeling is about.

[TheBigD]

I personally think this was a nice opportunity for the people that could afford to do it. :ugh::ugh::ugh:
I have learnt along my career path pilots tend to be very selfish sods

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Coming from a guy that paid to get ahead of the line call other pilots selfish sods. I hope your piloting skills are better than your reasoning skills........
I remember the first time I flew a big jet and its a magical feeling

I remember the first time I got to fly a jet and not only did I not have to pay for it; but I got paid for it. Magical feeling!!!

[Stalker_]

Look it depends on what point of view you are looking at this situation from, if you assume that they would have taken low hour pilots on then yes good for the pilots that get in.


I was merely stating that based on the facts that Lion had decided this was the way they wanted to recruit it was a good opportunity for those that could afford to get in. whether its the correct way, the right way etc is not the point I was making, the point I was making was that this was a good opportunity.


I personally prefer to fly the Jet rather than the smaller SEP, the King air was good fun, but I like the airline lifestyle that's just my opinion.


Certainly no going back for me now, it has been a long road!! I mean I don't want to boar people with my story but..


in 2003 I graduated with a CPL, MECIR but no ATPL theory credits
after that I took an Instructor rating and started working as a grade 3 instructor this was terrible, the school had far too many instructors and any full time students that actually flew on a regular basis the CFI or chief pilot would teach, I literally had 2-3 students that wanted to fly on weekends and either they would cancel on me at the last minute, the weather was bad or some other lame excuses, I was at that school 2 years and only made around 300 hours!!


Then in 2005 I went travelling in the hope of something better, my travels took me to Africa, after several months without a job finally by sheer luck one day I was offered a charter job on a C210, looking back this is where things really took off for me, I stayed with this company for almost 3 years and build some very good time and made lots of good friends, then came an opportunity to fly the B58 with a rival company, I took it with both hands and had another year flying MEP! then came the Big break when I went for a King Air C90 job, still in Africa this was a great job to have and I felt as if all the hard work, going without food, camping in tents was all worth it the first time I landed this beautiful airplane. however I was a victim of the race to the bottom when I fellow Aussie came to our base and offered his services free of charge, he had paid for his rating, paid for 50 hours of time in the states and now wanted to work for free to build time! I was let go a few weeks later.


However every cloud has it's silver lining and after literally thousands of applications to airlines I finally got a response! and interview and subsequent job offer on the B737-300, I have flown this type for 3 different airlines ever since varying from the -300 -500 and -400 types.


so in a nut shell that's my life over the last 10 years, but if an opportunity to bypass all the pain and suffering I went through to get to this 737 I would have taken it if I had the money, if I didn't someone else would have, and that is the value of money, I almost gave up a couple of times as I was just in some terrible conditions but I carried on and got my reward.


I'm sure there are some arseholes who have too much money in Lion that just buy there way through life, but I am referring to the passionate ones, the ones who work hard and study, these are the guys that I think have a great opportunity to go on and have a nice career.

[flyboy_nz]

I was merely stating that based on the facts that Lion had decided this was the way they wanted to recruit it was a good opportunity for those that could afford to get in. whether its the correct way, the right way etc is not the point I was making, the point I was making was that this was a good opportunity

Good opportunity, yes for sure in the short run. Have you thought of the long run on how p2f is gonna effect the entire industry. Instead of them paying us, we are paying them. How low can we go? But you're too short sighted for that because as long as your neck is above the water, who cares if everyone else is drowning. Little do you realise the entire ship is sinking.

in 2003 I graduated with a CPL, MECIR but no ATPL theory credits
after that I took an Instructor rating and started working as a grade 3 instructor this was terrible, the school had far too many instructors and any full time students that actually flew on a regular basis the CFI or chief pilot would teach, I literally had 2-3 students that wanted to fly on weekends and either they would cancel on me at the last minute, the weather was bad or some other lame excuses, I was at that school 2 years and only made around 300 hours!!

Mate, we have all been down that road. I did 10 hrs in my first month as an instructor. By end of the same year, I had clocked 500 hrs as an instructor and that too working in a small aero club that was against the big sausage factories and without any international students. Why did I do so well? Because for me, instructing wasn't just a mean to build hours for the airlines. I did it for the passion of flying and to teach it to other people. It came out naturally and I became very good at it. I did it for three years with almost 2000hrs, and I made sure the aero club got something in return for giving me the opportunity to work for them. Customer service goes a long way in any industry. I am still welcomed back by my old boss and I sure will when I retire from the airlines.

I am doing the turbo prop gig now and management on the side. Absolutely loving it. The airlines can wait. I will first repay this company for the opportunity they have given me to work for them and how? Improving their safety record, improving customer relationships and building a customer base. Yes, a pilot can actually do this. They did it in the old days when commercial aviation was new and the pilots were trying to win people over to fly instead of taking the ferry/ships. I enjoy interacting with my pax. I run bang on time ( the schedule). I have a perfect safety record. I have cancelled flights and yet the boss loves me, cos I will go out of my way to make sure that the pax are looked after. And this is in Indo, not New Zealand.

I have three resumes in front of me for three different airlines I can apply for. All in three different regions of the world on three different aircrafts, different cultures, languages. How awesome is that! Not one requires me to pay a single cent. Yet, I will give it all up just for a chance to fly turbo-props in Nepal.

Just last weekend, met a girl who's working in HR for one of the major airlines. She wants my resume and can get me an interview in two months time (I am gonna reward her for that:E). It's not a race. Life will be gone by the time you get there. And no, adjusting fuel management/cost index on a FMC is not an achievement. Even monkeys can do that. Only issue is they pay to do it these days.

fellow Aussie came to our base and offered his services free of charge, he had paid for his rating, paid for 50 hours of time in the states and now wanted to work for free to build time! I was let go a few weeks later.

So, you should step down to his level and pay for 100 hours and get your job back? Get over it, find another job and a company who will appreciate you. Although that is a two way street.

so in a nut shell that's my life over the last 10 years, but if an opportunity to bypass all the pain and suffering I went through to get to this 737 I would have taken it if I had the money, if I didn't someone else would have, and that is the value of money, I almost gave up a couple of times as I was just in some terrible conditions but I carried on and got my reward.

Pain and suffering yes in the short run. But those are the things that made you who you are today. No pain, no gain. I have had my share of trials and hardships, but life is going pretty smooth these days. But those dark moments has given me experience and maturity. Yet, I still have so much to learn. So many places to go, so many planes to fly. And heck, I am a pilot, dealing with sh!t with a smile is a natural habit for us.

[jetjockey696]

MR Stalker sounds like CAPT T. :p:E

[pilotcpb]

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/528440-p2f-scheme.html

fair warning about the p2f gig....:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[captjns]

The P2Fers deserve no fair warning, as they are not playing fair by the books either like their professional counterparts do.:*

[nostep]

Our beloved all time pilot job agency is now offering with Lion Air help of course Direct Entry Command for all those FO waiting for command, Salary, not much life non but if you have only 3000 hours 1000 jet you can become a Capt on our growing fleet only a 5 year commitment, quick quick limited space please apply now:D:D:D

[jetjockey696]

RISHWORTH AVIATION CONTRACT TERMS AND CONDITIONS B737NG COMMAND UPGRADE PROGRAM

The Opportunity Lion Air is seeking qualified and experienced B737NG rated First Officers to join them for a 5 year contract as part of a command upgrade program (the Program).

This is an exclusive arrangement offered only through Rishworth Aviation's crew leasing service where you will receive the support of Asia's largest crew leasing agency throughout your contract term.

Opportunities are limited under the Program and interest level is high. Only those candidates who possess the right skills and attitude will be selected to interview for and enter the Program. If you have an exceptional flying background and skills, and can make a long term commitment to the Airline we'd love to hear from you.

Monthly Payment: Figures quoted are net of Indonesian taxes, in USD and are based on 10 weeks on 2 weeks off duty roster. However, the first rotation will be completed on a 16 weeks on and 3 weeks off basis, to allow for progress with initial training and other start of contract formalities.

From the 1st day of arrival at base residence;

A Rate: US$3,100 per month (pro-rated for part month) for a maximum period of 26 weeks, or until checked to fly line operations as Pilot in Command (whichever is the earliest);

Thereafter:

B Rate: US$6,000 per month (pro-rated for part month) for a period of 24 months counted from either;

• The 27th week operating as First Officer: or

• The day after the candidate has being cleared to fly Line Operations as Pilot in Command.

C Rate: US$6,500 per month (pro-rated for part month) for a period of 36 months after completing 24 months of continuous service as a Pilot in Command.

Note: Any unpaid, extended service leave breaks shall not be counted towards the service calculation for purposes of time based service fee increases.

Bond: The Airline requires a bond of US$30,000 to join the Program (the Bond). The Bond may either be in the form of a bank guarantee or cash. Cash amounts are held by Rishworth with any interest payable at listed bank rates. Bank guarantees are required to be from an approved bank and be made in favour of Rishworth Aviation. Further details will be provided as necessary.

The Bond (cash) will be refunded or bank guarantee obligations cancelled in favour of the candidate due to; 1. Completion of the assignment period, being 5 years starting from being cleared to fly line operations as Pilot in Command; or 2. The assignment period being terminated early by the Airline without cause, or the DGCA failing to renew license validations. The Bond will be forfeited by the candidate if; 1. The assignment period is terminated before expiry of the 5 years by the candidate; or 2. The candidate's assignment period is terminated by the Airline for reasons including (but not limited to) failure to keep home country license valid, disciplinary reasons, failure to maintain appropriate standards etc.

In the event a candidate fails the upgrade training and does not continue with the Airline as a First Officer US$10,000 will be forfeited from the Bond by the candidate upon termination and upon completing all necessary exit procedures as required by the Airline. If the candidate agrees to stay on as a First Officer for a 12 month assignment period and terminates the assignment period before 12 months is completed, then the candidate will be required to repay US$10,000 from the Bond, and if no notice is given, or the notice period is less than required, repayment will be US$15,000.

Overtime: Overtime will be payable after completing 90 block hours per month. Only Pilots operating as Captain shall be eligible to receive overtime payments after being checked to fly line operations.

Minimum Requirements /Hours:

− 1,000 hours time on B737NG as First Officer;

− 4,000 hours total time;

− ICAO ATPL or ATP with unrestricted B737NG type rating;

− Valid Instrument rating (P1), or with P2, SIC, COP restrictions (see notes)

− Current Valid Class One Medical;

− Level 4 or higher ICAO English language level;

− Must be aged between 26 and 36 years of age at time of application.

[PGP737]

@nostep:Rishworth brings the industry just a little lower
Can you explain me your statement???

[nostep]

Turb I agree 100% in what your saying its all true. I think he stays in level 6 with his dodgy friend i do full approaches, stuff what atc wants me to do William P because he's to scared to fly in the rain. :D:D:D:D

[jetjockey696]

I think MR..oops Master T. is talking in the third person now.. Silkysky.. I heard he started as a 1 stripe pilot..cadet and moved up to 4 stripes faster than a prostitue moving through a crowd of bules in BATS.

SilkySky if you are not Master T.. sorry to say that you aviation skills and knowledge are very bad.. or non existent if you are learning from him. Now I am scared to fly.:mad: read. B737 for dummies you learn more...

And what I heard of Uncle BOB P. he a crazy.. a few sandwich short of a picnic pilot.. a few bricks short of a council house... screaming at everyone from the ground (gnd staff) to air (ATC) . does full approaches, even when atc vector him to final in VMC. like to cruise at 5000ft from 30miles out...that why he is confined to Lvl 6.. loony toon tower..

[silkysky]

geees... what a grudge you are holding. :eek:
And No:=, I'm not Capt T.... I'm just a B driver that still enjoys putting this bird up in the air and appreciate it as much possible.
Pilots will always be victims to some circumstances because we are suckers to our job, its just a matter of each person tolerance level.:8

Non the less... after this speech:p. as i mentioned im new to this. Previously i submitted a post but didnt come up... I must have done something wrong.
I was wondering if anyone had any info on Silk Air. I came across pictures online of B737NG partially panted with their livery:ok:

[PGP737]

@nostep
PGP737 is called safety safety safety at the expensive of saving money, I will spell it to you, what major airlines give Command at 3000 hours? None I wonder why?
READ READ READ AGAIN... where do you see the 3.000 hours??? Thats lion req.
The minimum req. at rishworth is 4.000 hours !!!
I know a lot of good f/o's with more than that and they still fly at right seat.
So why not make a change at your life? IF you pass the sim ride and IF you are good they will upgrade you to captain... simple...
They have failed a lot of expats before so IF your are good enough you will survive.
My friends there tell my about DGCA is not happy with the expat upgrade.

As you are aware Lion Air is facing a shortage of Crew for many reasons, lack of pay is very high on the list if Lion Air upped there pay the same as China maybe things will be reversed but they have opted through Rishworth to try the cheap and nasty way, why we have to ask with this upgrade program the New Commander doesn't get paid the same as all other Commanders once passed his Line Check, do the Maths,

You are wrong. The local captain is paid around 3.300 USD plus per diem at present time. So if they offer 6.000 up to 6.500 USD its better money from the local contract at 39 mil IDR.
I don't say that money is a good salary for experienced captains but for a beginner sure is.

so good luck to the guys coming with min hours I think most will finish Line Training on the right or going home, as this part of world is known for its challenging flying and has no room for make believers.
You are correct on that. Already happen.

[BulePilot]

PGP737, local contract of Rp 39 million is basic pay only I'm sure, so you add the flying allowance which is probably around Rp 400,000 per hour or so plus maybe a sector pay. Rishworth program doesn't mention anything about flying allowance or sector pay, only if you exceed 90 hrs per month which is quite a bit (only 1,050 hrs/yr allowed by Indonesian law, which is about 90 hrs per month if you deduct the annual leave and any sick days. So local pay could in fact be higher than the Rishworth program, which in my opinion is total rip-off with that non-pro-rated bond. Who in the right mind would go for that???

[brasmelzuit]

Last time I check, flight pay still rp.125.000/hr (us$10) .Until u reach 1000hrs PiC and never get any warning letter, it become rp.175.000/hr (us$15).

[nostep]

PGP737 Expat Captains get Paid $9000 usd per month and $90 usd per hour if you fly more than 90 hours so please do your maths again ok :ok::D

Also there was another contract out there, min was 3000 hours 1000 on jet maybe Rishworth changed it

Even Still 1000 hours on type wow your just learning about the A/C and remember around Indonesia theres no room for pretenders :=:=:=

[jetjockey696]

nostep... what i see there no shortage of good expat pilots in loinair ..:ok: because what i see there are a lot of TOPGuN pilots wearing dark aviator glasses walking around the apron.. pretending to know a lot, Captain material.. perfect example Capt T... they must be god gift to aviation.. the salvours of LoinAIR.

[flyboy_nz]

because what i see there are a lot of TOPGuN pilots wearing dark aviator glasses walking around the apron.. pretending to know a lot, Captain material.. perfect example Capt T... they must be god gift to aviation.. the salvours of LoinAIR.

Hahahha, not just Lion, but Sriwijaya as well. I hear they all congregate in Dragon Fly these days to pick up girls. They usually end up with the hookers, let alone decent Indonesian girls. Not surprising, pay to fly, pay to get laid, pay to get bummed in the rear end, the list never stops.

A good friend and I went to Dragon fly one time. It was packed mostly with Bules/westerners and Indonesian girls. Me and the friend made a bet. The bet was she could get more guys to buy drinks than I could from girls. Her being very good looking, I was gonna lose. On second thought, her being a female, I was gonna lose. Guess what, I got smashed for free that night and needless to say, my friend came home with me.

Now, talking about Indonesian Captains. I was fortunate one time to be allowed the jump seat on a Lion Air flight. Both pilots had a decade of experience flying turbo-props in Papua. They both were very down to earth, and it brought a huge smile on my face. I had the upmost respect for these guys. We all got along very well on the Flight deck and it was a pleasure to know there's still some very good pilots in Lion.

[PGP737]

@nostep Do the math...
I bet its not 90 usd/hour
Maybe you mean only 9 usd/hour