Emergency Breathing Systems

[dbro91]

Hi there, My name's Drew Brown, i'm a student at the University of Strathclyde. For my final year project i'm looking into improving Emergency Breathing Systems used during helicopter transit to and from offshore oil rigs. As part of my research i've put together a short survey that I was hoping you might be able to complete. It would be a great help to get a number of replies and there are obviously a number of experienced and knowledgeable posters here. It is relevant to global offshore flights so whether you are a pilot or a passenger it would be brilliant if you could take 5 minutes to fill it in. https://strathbusiness.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_bl461jduwgaAtpz . Thanks in advance. It would be much appreciated.

[cyclic]

I think you will find that none of the North Sea pilots on this forum have an EBS unless they are SAR crews. These cost money unfortunately so it is cheaper to get another pilot:ok:

[SASless]

Cyclic.....being the cynical bastard he is.....is also being very honest I am afraid.:ok:

[dbro91]

ah right, thanks for the feedback. Apparently its not an actually regulation yet but people are being recommended to carry them. I suppose it was naive of me to imagine they would be supplied when they aren't mandatory.
Not having a background in oil (although I do know a number of people working in the industry in Aberdeen) I suppose it just seemed sensible for EBS to be a requirement considering apparently nowadays drowning and breath hold time is a the main factor in fatalities.

Thanks again to everyone who is filling in the survey!

[Thomas coupling]

You could always buy your own, I suppose and club together for some personal training - could save lives?
I know of at least 2 occasions where the life of the pilot was saved due to STASS.

[cyclic]

Why thank you SAS.

TC, this has been done but you need jackets modified to carry them and it becomes a piece of unauthorised kit which hasn't been tested by a design department using a direct nuclear hit. Strapping said STASS to ankles doesn't work either - it has been tried...

[SASless]

dbro,

In the 332 Crash thread there was a good discussion about Breathing Systems.....you might try looking through that thread to pick up some ideas of what the Industry is doing and how it is being received by Passengers and Pilots.

[jimf671]

You could always buy your own, ...


Unauthorised pressure vessel?

[GipsyMagpie]

You should think about how the military do it. Any copter over water (OK big bits of water - seas, oceans) has all crew trained and equipped with stass (which needs neither switch nor button to activate in theory). Plus I believe those fine chaps in dark blue give all their passengers PSTASS which is operated with a turn valve. A wise old QHI once said "Aviation is an expense business" and he is right. But giving people stass cannot be that expensive surely?

[charlieDontSurf]

CHC and Bristow in Norway issues a quite clever Emergency Breathing Device to their passengers.
It's a sort of "re-breather", just a mouthpiece attached to a hose that goes inside the drysuit. That way they breathe/rebreathe the air in the suit - and gives them some valuable extra time if they get submerged.

The CREW on the other hand doesn't get anything!
But we - of course - are machines! :cool:

And the crew on the "Los"-helicopters (Los=Harbour pilot) fly with personal emergency-bottles of air.

[9Aplus]

Products like "spare air" cost approx $300
but: (US TSA example)
"A compressed gas cylinder is allowed in carry-on or checked baggage ONLY if the regulator valve is completely disconnected from the cylinder and the cylinder is no longer sealed (i.e. the cylinder has an open end). The cylinder must have an opening to allow for a visual inspection inside. TSA Security Screeners will NOT remove the seal/regulator valve from the cylinder at the checkpoint. If the cylinder is sealed (i.e. the regulator valve is still attached), the cylinder is prohibited and not permitted through the security checkpoint, regardless of the reading on the pressure gauge indicator. TSA Security Screeners must visibly ensure that the cylinder is completely empty and that there are no prohibited items inside."
According to my (limited) knowledge certified FAA/EASA (aviation) spare air device not exist... hope someone can correct that statement ;)

[SASless]

just a mouthpiece attached to a hose that goes inside the drysuit

That could be a terrible choice for some.....Icy Salt Water or the Essence of last night's Beer and Curry.:uhoh:

[dbro91]

Excellent repsonses guys, thanks a lot! Really helps.
Yeah, form my reading it looks like STASS is the best choice due to it being more easily activated and it's apparently the only one that has been shown to actually save lives although im sure re-breathers have their merits too.
I have looked at the Norwegian immersion suits with their rebreathers (made by helly hansen i think) and they do look quite impressive and functional.

[SASless]

The Dry Suit thing works so long as the Suit is worn properly and does not fill with water I would assume.

[gasax]

The UK issued rebreather system was supposedly chosen as it did not need any specialist knowledge to deploy and use.

However it does need the valve to be operated and once it inflates it further impedes escape through those small windows.

My preference would be a positive air supply ass it could be very compact. But people would have to understand the potential for hyperbaric injury if they misuse it.

[jim63]

From this website,HEED 3 - Submersible Systems life saving Helicopter Emergency Egress Device (http://www.heed3.com/) it says these companies use the Heed3 system,looks small enough:confused:

Bond Helicopter, England British Petroleum CHC Helicopter Corporation, Canada ERA Helicopters, LAOffshore Helicopter Support, LAFleetwood Offshore Service, England Sikorsky Aircraft, CT Aramco, Saudi Arabia Communications Aerotech, MS

http://www.heed3.com/images_norepeat/heed3holsterv3x300.jpg

[homonculus]

Fortunately I have never needed to use these systems in anger, but I have worn a rebreather for some time as a stand alone device. I have measured oxygen and carbon dioxide levels in a hospital setting using the device, and even with maximum hyperventilation I don't get uncomfortable hypercarbia for well over 90 seconds, and beyond this it is rather academic. The size of the pocket is large enough so that one exhaled breath - in practice little over a litre - does not distend the pocket to prevent egress.

A significant benefit is that it can be deployed during the descent so that on contact with water all you have to do is pull the pin on the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece is in your mouth and locatable. By comparison any compressed air system has to be taken out of a pocket with a risk of dropping it especially in cold water. Then it has to be rotated, possibly in the dark, so the mouthpiece faces you, and then you have to expel water from the system.

I am sure with practice this is all possible, but just replacing a mouthpiece underwater often causes difficulties for amateur divers.

[switch_on_lofty]

The HEED system pictured above looks identical to the STASS used by UK Mil.

Just remove the "HEED" logo and insert NSN.

[buzz111]

Managed to post the following twice....

:rolleyes:

[buzz111]

Hi Drew

I'm working at the Norwegian Sea Pilot Ops that CharlieDontSurf mentioned.

We are using the HABD II for the crew. The compressed air bottle is sitting in a pouch on the back/side of the life vest. The mouth piece is connected to a hose running over the right shoulder and is easily found and established using one hand.
The pilot monitoring and the crew in the back may very well establish the HABD before ditching is so wished.

Contrary to previous post, there's no turning or removing from pocket needed - so no risk of loosing it. As with a standard scuba system, you can even purge your mouth piece before using it ( to get rid of water in the system)

The life vest seemed a bit heavy with the new gear installed, but it only took a few trips to get used to the extra weight.

I've used the system on several occasions during HUET and find it excellent. The fact that you have time to think, before unstrapping snd leaving your station when submerged, is bound to largely better your odds.

The downside is, that using the system requires training or you will most probably do some serious damage to your lungs if using it.

Good luck with your project!

Rgds

[Bladestrike]

We carried something like these offshore out of Eastern Canada (pax and crew);

Main Catalog > ?Emergency Breathing Systems (EBS) > Survival Egress Air (SEA) (http://new.aerialmachineandtool.com/webshaper/store/viewProd.asp?pkProductItem=131)

Having the separate mouthpiece is much easier, and you have both hands free for escape. The bottle mounted on the vest/survival suit and the mouthpiece was up by the mouth. The valve was left open in flight, so all you had to do was put the mouthpiece in and breath in the event of a ditching. Easy to find too if you were in the water prior to knowing you needed it. We trained with the bottles every two years in the dunkers.

[homonculus]

Agreed, much better. Interestingly even the largest of the systems only has 30 litres of air. When you hit cold water your minute volume can easily be over 50 litres a minute so you get very little time. Granted if you are submerged without floats your egres window is probably less, but the rebreather gives you more time if inverted, trapped and with floats. When the cylinder is empty you will get sudden frightening resistance whereas with the rebreather you merely get a progressive desire to breathe faster.

I am also concerned that it needs a 32 page user manual. My rebreather came with an A5 sheet but there is a video. There is no maintenance or filling, merely a return to manufacturer as per the life vest. The rebreather can stay on the shelf for a year, needs no cylinders and can travel on a commercial flight.

Shark now make a version with a cylinder which is designed to deal with failure to inspire before activation. Still with the spring loaded bypass valve on the mouthpiece so you can breathe through the mouthpiece on the descent and merely have to pull the ball on your mouth as you submerge.

[212man]

Interesting that the HEED website doesn't list BSP as a customer: View a list of some of our esteemed customers Clients - The HEED 3 is popular with many private and government organizations around the world. (http://www.heed3.com/clients.html)

Obviously they don't consider them "esteemed"...although they've been using them for 7 years.

[steve_oc]

dbro91 and others, you may find CAP 1034 Development of a Technical Standard for Emergency Breathing Systems of interest:
CAP1034: Development of a Technical Standard for Emergency Breathing Systems | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=5554)

[9Aplus]

tnx Steve :ok:

[dbro91]

thanks Steve, I read through that technical standard a couple weeks ago and am actually now in contact with the woman who wrote it and reviewed the tests. Hoping to have her give feedback and some academic opinions on the process as I got through it.

[mickjoebill]

The bottle mounted on the vest/survival suit and the mouthpiece was up by the mouth
I needed something that would not interfere with operation of the laptop control of a stabilised camera, so waist worn kit is too bulky.
I sewed the holster for the small heeds into my life vest, making sure it did not interfere with inflation and its ability to keep the wearer facing up.
It is vertical on the left breast so the mouthpiece can be reached by turning ones head if need be. (same mouthpiece position as used by kayakers )
I'd recommend professional training with it on a HUET course and refreshers in a pool.

Refilling abroad can be done at a dive shop. One dive shop didn't like the look of the spare air cylinder but sold me a scuba tank and let me fill it myself.
Having a scuba tank at home to refill the HEEDs is convenient and allows for regular checks and practice.


Whilst on the subject of being turned upside down and sinking and most relevant to those who have had a perforated eardrum, is the possibility of the weakened eardrum perforating again, filling with water and completely stuffing up your sense of balance.
Happened to me in a diving pool at 4 meters and despite seeing the pool bottom, walls and bright lights above, my balance urged me to swim sideways. I was cognisant enough to feel the water poring in and immediately rationalised that I had to follow my eyes not my balance.
Due to the effects of vertigo, I couldn't stand for 5 minutes when I flopped out of the pool.

I didn't realise that sudden flooding of cold water in a warm ear canal can also cause vertigo.
>Vertigo (http://www.skin-diver.com/departments/ScubaMed/Vertigo.asp?theID=338)

Cold Water Calorics - COWS - YouTube



Mickjoebill

[SASless]

Every get "Ascending Vertigo" while Scuba Diving?

Very much the same sensation I should think.....I found it very discomforting as when it happened to me it was very low visibility....like maybe a foot at most. The only real clue of "Up" were the bubbles....and they were very hard to see.

[EESDL]

The US TSA guidelines are for security purposes - not for use by the crew in the cockpit as stand-alone emergency air.
HEED3 is compressed air, not an oxygen generator - just want to make sure we don't try and build too many obstacles for 'carry on' use when smoke or water enters cockpit!