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gileraguy
4th Nov 2013, 17:24
Saw this on SBS last night.

An Australian Forensic Police Officer ( retired) goes over the Warren Commission witness statements and the autopsy results with a fine tooth comb.

The result was the most plausible analysis and likely cause of the assassination.

Completely changed my view on the event,( as the way the Zapruder film cuts just at the Grassy Knoll always led me to believe the other shooter was located there. )

That's in combination with the witness reports of gunpowder smell at street level.

All in all a tragic accident and a billion to one shot...

con-pilot
4th Nov 2013, 17:34
All in all a tragic accident and a billion to one shot...

Yeah, I've heard about this, all wrong of course.

T'was Colonel Mustard in the library with the gun. Everybody knows that.


Okay, serious now. They might be on to something here, an accidental discharge by a Secret Service body guard does seem plausible and does answer some questions.

rgbrock1
4th Nov 2013, 17:44
Let's not forget that the House Select Committee on Assassinations, at the end of their hearings in 1978, concluded that JFK was "likely assassinated as the result of a conspiracy." The committee did note, however, that the conspiracy did not include the governments of the United States or Cuba nor organized crime or any anti-Castro group but did not rule out individual members of either of those two groups acting alone or in concert with each other.

AtomKraft
4th Nov 2013, 19:21
I've been to the site and stood in the exact spot (shooting towards President Kennedy from the front), that some allege the 'grassy knoll' shooter fired from.

At that time, there was a tunnel (actually, a drain) that led from here to a safe spot.

As Kennedy came round that left hand corner, he was a no-deflection, easy shot from where I was.

You couldn't have picked a better place to shoot from under any circumstances.

Not saying that's what happened, as I've no idea what actually took place that day. But as an experienced shooter, I will say you couldn't have made it any easier for yourself than by picking that spot.

And after all, why give yourself a difficult shot when you can pick your spot and make it easy?
There's going to be tricky questions to answer, if you miss.....

El Grifo
4th Nov 2013, 21:27
Bill Hicks on the JFK Assassination - from Revelations - YouTube

500N
4th Nov 2013, 21:29
I thought it was a good doco. I couldn't watch the end of it as I had to go out
but what I did see was logical.

Nervous SLF
4th Nov 2013, 23:43
I thought it was a good doco. I couldn't watch the end of it as I had to go out
but what I did see was logical.


Was it called "Killing Kennedy" only they have said prog here on Nat Geographic Channel on 19th ?

TWT
5th Nov 2013, 00:21
No,as gileraguy said, it's called 'JFK : The Smoking Gun'

JFK ? The Smoking Gun (http://www.sbs.com.au/thesmokinggun/)

Ozzy
5th Nov 2013, 00:30
I worked for the company that did the second investigation into JFK's assassination. Warren Comish 2, if you will. So, there was an open mic on a Dallas PD motorcycle recording everything. The team set up triangling mics on Dealey Plaza and fired rifles from a number of locations. Recorded the sounds. Analyzed the recordings using state of the art (1970s) acoustic algorithms. Clearly, there were more than one shooter. So, Oswald did not act alone.

Ozzy

PM me for info if you want.

galaxy flyer
5th Nov 2013, 01:20
My money's on LBJ as the leader with the CIA/Mafia the operators in Dallas.

GF

Ozzy
5th Nov 2013, 01:28
I cannot argue with the science that was used. The second commission did. Politicians....

Ozzy

Worrals in the wilds
5th Nov 2013, 04:24
Completely changed my view on the event,( as the way the Zapruder film cuts just at the Grassy Knoll always led me to believe the other shooter was located there. )
If it turns out to be correct it would completely change my view of the AFP, particularly wrt their investigative powers...:E:}

However, in fairness I didn't watch it.

Haraka
5th Nov 2013, 04:51
Just to add my "tuppence".
My first impression on visiting the Plaza was how very much smaller it all is than I had thought, although having read several books on the assassination.
Although access to the sniper's nest in the old book repository was not given you could look out of the next window. The distance down to the target, again, was a lot less than I had imagined. Add to that its slow speed, moving almost directly away. It would have been an easy shot for a kid with a BB gun.
Finally, by coincidence, a car backfired when I was wandering the Plaza. The ensuing series of rapid echoes rebounding off of the many high buildings around the square had people looking in all directions, which to my mind may explain a lot of the confusion at the time of the shots being fired.

PLovett
5th Nov 2013, 07:51
The doco was good but the initial work done by a Maryland gunsmith (Howard Donohue) and documented in the book, "Mortal Error", that was the starting point for the doco, is brilliant. It fleshes out in greater detail how the conclusion of a negligent discharge was arrived at. If you can get hold of a copy, do so and read it.

Where I thought the doco was very good was its explanation of the events following the assassination. The retired copper had access to more information than Donohue due to the release of documents under the Clinton administration. These included masses of witness statements taken by the Dallas police immediately after the shooting.

Arm out the window
5th Nov 2013, 08:26
Heard an interview with the book's author on ABC radio the other day, very matter of fact and sounded like he knew his stuff. Said he had read through every available official document and pieced the story together, which turned out to be much more mundane than a 'second shooter conspiracy theory'.

For those who haven't heard his conclusion, it's basically this:

Oswald shoots at JFK.

Startled bodyguard in the following car holding a weapon loaded with frangible rounds and of a type that goes off easily, accidentally shoots JFK in the head.

He is the junior guy in the group, the rest of his mates were out on the piss the previous night and hand him the weapon because they're hung over.

gileraguy
5th Nov 2013, 08:43
and Oswald was firing full metal jackets...

That explains why the SS acted the way they did at the autopsy and that's why the brain went missing...

Lonewolf_50
5th Nov 2013, 14:37
The Man Who Saw Too Much | Texas Monthly (http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/man-who-saw-too-much)

This fella did some ground work.

In a more recent Texas Monthly, (November 2013 issue: the front cover is an oil boom collage) he addresses the conspiracy theories that have made him somewhat weary of the never ending noise attending this assassination.

Y'all are right there with them. :p

Anthill
8th Nov 2013, 11:51
Exactly Cactusjack. Kennedy had signed a bill that allowed US$$$ to be printed by other than the Federal Reserve. The Fed is privately controlled by the Rothschild family. Almost as soon as LBJ was sworn in, the bill was rescinded.

rgbrock1
8th Nov 2013, 12:05
LW50:

Although I don't necessarily agree with some of the rather dubious claims as to whom exactly was responsible for JFK's assassination I have always found it extremely interesting that Mr. Oswald, while qualifying on the rifle range, shot no higher than sharpshooter but, more often than not, as a marksman.

For those not familiar with those terms, a marksman is the lowest possible ranking given to a shooter. Barely above the minimum requirements to pass.
Sharpshooter is decent. But he only shot that once. (The next step up is Expert. Not terribly difficult to obtain but you do have to be a damn good shot. Like me, who shot Expert every time I qualified. <Tooting one's own horn mode off>)

So I could never really wrap my brain around someone who scored minimally on a US Marine qualification test for shooting and someone who was able to get in a well-placed head shot on a moving target. Luck? Or was someone else helping?

probes
8th Nov 2013, 12:15
yeah. I also read somewhere that the guy who hit the WTC with the plane barely got his licence for a Cessna.

Dushan
8th Nov 2013, 13:23
So I could never really wrap my brain around someone who scored minimally on a US Marine qualification test for shooting and someone who was able to get in a well-placed head shot on a moving target. Luck? Or was someone else helping?

Maybe The Marines have higher standards so a Marine Marksman exceeds a Ranger Expert...








Dons bulletproof vest, helmet, ducks...

rgbrock1
8th Nov 2013, 13:27
Dushan dubiously wrote

Maybe The Marines have higher standards so a Marine Marksman exceeds a Ranger Expert...

Hey Dushan. I was going to insert an animated gif file of a middle finger being extended to you. But that would have been very "fresh" of me.

Instead I'll just warn you not to ignore that whirring sound you'll hear tonight (which hopefully isn't mistaken for the sound of snow because we all know that's all you Canucks are good for anyway: snow) as I send a few of my un-expert buddies your way!

http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/rangers-mh-6.jpg

Mr. Dushan? Come with us please sir.

Dushan
8th Nov 2013, 13:31
Nah, no snow, yet, but I may mistake your cohort for the Orng air ambulance chopper that flies over my building all the time.

rgbrock1
8th Nov 2013, 13:34
Oh, Dushan, I don't think there'll be any mistaking their arrival. None at all.

If you hear anything which sounds like hell has descended upon the earth, or upon your house, don't be alarmed. It's only a temporary sound. All will be back to peace and quiet shortly thereafter, I promise. :ok:

Fast-forward to Monday morning.

Mrs. Dushan: "I'm sorry Mr. Smith, but Mr. Dushan won't be into work today."

Mr. Smith: "Oh. Is he okay, is he ill?"

Mrs. Dushan: "I can't really say. It seems he was wisked away off of the roof last night, sort of like Santa Claus. But in this case the folks doing the wisking didn't really look at all like Father Christmas."

SASless
8th Nov 2013, 13:40
Dushan,

I thought that myself.....about the difficulty of the shot. Then I visited the actual location and looked down the street where the Limo was traveling. It becomes an almost direct...straight....going away shot which any Texas Deer Hunter could make. That is why we call those particular shots....."Texas Heart Shots"!

What is hard to imagine....is the rapidity of the three shots.

Also...when I look at the Zapuder (sic) Film.....I am always convinced the last hit was from the front.

I would love to be able to review the crime scene investigation to see how much Brain Matter and such was scattered over the roadway. With the rear to front trajectory....most of that stuff would have been inside the Limo and all over the driver and Connolly.

As part of my NCIS Basic Agent Training Course we critiqued the Warren Commission Report....and found literally thousands of un-resolved Leads which would have had to been answered before the Investigation could be closed....or should have been closed. That does not even consider all the Classified Information that we did not have access to examine.

rgbrock1
8th Nov 2013, 13:56
SASless wrote:

I would love to be able to review the crime scene investigation to see how much Brain Matter and such was scattered over the roadway. With the rear to front trajectory....most of that stuff would have been inside the Limo and all over the driver and Connolly.

This is true. However, do keep in mind that one of the first things Mrs. Kennedy did after the final shot was to start crawling off the top of the trunk of the limo. To escape the killing ground? No. To retrieve the parts of JFK's brain which were blown all over the back of the limo. If it was a rear shot some brain matter and skull fragments would have been on the limo's trunk. But not to the extent that it was. If you look at the Zapruder film you'll see Mrs. Kennedy reaching for parts of her husband's head. Right after his head bounces backwards after the final head shot. (Heads don't bounce backwards after a shot from the rear. You know that better than I do.)

Dushan
8th Nov 2013, 14:33
SAS, I was just trying to egg RGB on, which I succeeded...

Yes, I've been to the book depository window as well and appreciate that it isn't nearly as impossible as talked about, except for the rapidity of the shots.

However, after the first shot, the driver "put the pedal to the metal" and the car accelerated giving the impression of everything going backwards (Newton, and all that) so arguments for a grassy knoll shot could be countered by that.

Dushan
8th Nov 2013, 14:52
Mrs. Dushan: "I'm sorry Mr. Smith, but Mr. Dushan won't be into work today."



Wouldn't be necessary. Nobody would notice...

rgbrock1
8th Nov 2013, 15:10
Ah Dushan, so you're one of those folks who, if you died at work no one would notice?!!! :}

Dushan
8th Nov 2013, 15:23
Yep, and trying to keep it that way. Don't rock the boat, fill out the forms, smile a lot.

chuks
8th Nov 2013, 15:27
We have someone who doesn't know how to speel telling us about how it was the Rothschilds, controllers of the Federal Reserve, wot dun it. Uh-huh. That's the sort of stuff that "everybody knows." Well, everybody who believes in secret societys (sic).

I have read a lot of different accounts about the assassination, and I think it was Oswald who did it. On the other hand, I don't think that the Rothschilds control the Federal Reserve. It could be, though, that there are alternate realities, and in one of them Oswald was a patsy and the Rothschilds do control the Federal Reserve. And Lance Armstrong faked the moon landing!

con-pilot
8th Nov 2013, 15:38
and I think it was Oswald who did it

Are you sure that it wasn't Colonel Mustard? :suspect:

rgbrock1
8th Nov 2013, 15:39
chuks:

I think Oswald had a hand in it as well. Probably the shot which missed entirely. But I have a suspicion that others were involved. There are too many open questions, in my mind anyway, about how someone who couldn't really shoot a rifle worth a shit, could manage a sequence of 3 shots in 7.1-7.9 seconds using a bolt-action rifle. I guess someone who is adept at, and familiar with, a bolt-action rifle could do so. But, again, Oswald was well known for being a lousy shot. Even the KGB made note of that when they were stalking Oswald around, 24 hours a day, in the hinterland of Russia when he lived there.

wings folded
8th Nov 2013, 15:42
Are you sure that it wasn't Colonel Mustard? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif

Can't have been, con, it was outside, not in the Billiard Room.

dazdaz1
8th Nov 2013, 15:56
Are we discussing how JFK was killed or we discussing why he was assassinated?

con-pilot
8th Nov 2013, 16:00
Can't have been, con, it was outside, not in the Billiard Room.

Oh bugger, didn't think of that. :uhoh:

So back to the New Orlean's Mafia and the Teamster's Union.


:p

wings folded
8th Nov 2013, 16:06
Oh bugger, didn't think of that. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif


Furthermore, I believe that the official version definitively ruled out a chunk of lead piping as the weapon (but they may have been mistaken, of course)

Ozzy
8th Nov 2013, 16:35
Can't argue with science. There were more than one shooter. It does not, however, state who the shooters were. ...:zzz:

Ozzy

SilsoeSid
8th Nov 2013, 17:07
The LHO being a lousy shot argument is the flawed 'foundation stone' of the conspiracy lovers manual on this.

If you really are such a bad shot, why would you risk taking the first?

If you're doing a shot such as this, surely you would get a water melon or 2 and get out practising, after all LHO recieved the rifle on March 20, 1963, which gave him a full 8 months to practise !!!
Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - purchase (http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#purchase)

Oswald was tested in December of 1956, and obtained a score of 212, which was 2 points above the minimum for qualifications as a "sharpshooter" in a scale of marksman--sharpshooter--expert. In May of 1959, on another range, Oswald scored 191, which was 1 point over the minimum for ranking as a "marksman."

When asked to explain the different scores achieved by Oswald on the two occasions when he fired for record, Major Anderson said:
... when he fired that [212] he had just completed a very intensive preliminary training period. He had the services of an experienced highly trained coach. He had high motivation. He had presumably a good to excellent rifle and good ammunition. We have nothing here to show under what conditions the B course was fired. It might well have been a bad day for firing the rifle--windy, rainy, dark. There is little probability that he had a good, expert coach, and he probably didn't have as high a motivation because he was no longer in recruit training and under the care of the drill instructor. There is some possibility that the rifle he was firing might not have been as good a rifle as the rifle that he was firing in his A course firing, because [he] may well have carried this rifle for quite some time, and it got banged around in normal usage.

Major Anderson concluded:
I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to--better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot.
Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - marines (http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#marine)

Of course, with a good rifle, do you really need to be an expert?

Based on these tests the experts agreed that the assassination rifle was an accurate weapon. Simmons described it as "quite accurate," in fact, as accurate as current military rifles. Frazier testified that the rifle was accurate, that it had less recoil than the average military rifle and that one would not have to be an expert marksman to have accomplished the assassination with the weapon which was used.
Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - accuracy (http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#accuracy)


But of course, the CT's out there will say that the report itself is part of the conspiracy :rolleyes:

PLovett
8th Nov 2013, 22:44
Geez..........just go out and find a copy of "Mortal Error". The documentary referred to in the OP was based on that book. Ditch the conspiracy theories, incidentally there is a very good web site for debunking them, JFK/The Kennedy Assassination (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm), and realise that the truth can be much stranger than fiction.

For me, the only outstanding issue drawn from a debate on another forum, is whether the secret service agent was holding an AR-10 or AR-15? The doco says it was an AR-15, and I think the book does to but another poster thinks differently.

As to the rifle, I think the Warren Commission found that the telescopic sights were not aligned but that it was quite possible to still use the open sights with which it was fitted.

Scenario; Oswald cycles action and ejects previously fired round that is in the breech as a protector, fires first round using telescopic sights, it misses hitting tarmac near presidential vehicle, a splinter hits Kennedy who calls out he has been shot (heard by Gov. Connelly); Oswald observes first round missing and fires second round using open sights; this hits Kennedy in the neck and passes on to hit Connelly (the so-called magic bullet FFS); secret service agent in following open top vehicle hears gunfire, grabs AR-? from floor of car and starts to stand up when car accelerates throwing him backwards, AR-? discharges striking Kennedy in back of head with frangible round. Big cover up by secret service follows - probably the only branch of the US govt. that could successfully do a cover up.

Interesting note from the book, LBJ always made the secret service agents stay well away from him as he thought he was in more danger from them than anyone else.

SASless
8th Nov 2013, 23:12
LBJ did not know of me I guess.

500N
8th Nov 2013, 23:51
"LBJ always made the secret service agents stay well away from him as he thought he was in more danger from them than anyone else."


Wasn't it Reagan who nearly found out the hard way by not being taken straight to a hospital ?

Andu
9th Nov 2013, 01:14
I thought the docu. was quite well presented and the case it presented, very believable. It also fitted neatly into the argument: "when it's between cockup and conspiracy, cockup wins every time".

We live in different times today, but I think it would be very interesting for some documentary producer get together a few talking heads to explore how the USA (and the world) of 1963 would have handled the truth (if we can accept that the case presented in 'Mortal Error' is the truth) had it been presented to them in the months immediately following Kennedy's death.

If the (to me, compelling) case presented by the author of 'Mortal Error' is in fact the truth, we probably should not refer to Kennedy's death as an assassination, but an attempted assassination where the president was accidentally killed.

The Secret Service man responsible must have had an... how would you describe it? - "interesting" life afterwards, particularly since there would have been a small group of his colleagues who would have known the truth (and every one of them probably thinking "there, but for the grace of God, go I").

PLovett
9th Nov 2013, 11:51
There was a guy who was actively shooting at the President, but the documentary throws Occam's Razor out of the window, preferring to chase the highly improbable.

No it didn't. The problem with ascribing all 3 shots to Oswald is the size of the entry wound to the back of Kennedy's head - it was too small for a 6.5 mm round. Further, the entry wound to exit path could not be matched with a round fired from the book depository.

Similarly, the 3 cartridge cases in the book depository building was easily explained as one had been previously fired but was being used as a breech protector - there were different markings on it compared to the other two as well as being found in a different location.

There were something like 6 agents riding in the car behind Kennedy, 4 seated and 2 riding the sideboards (I think), they were the two who ran to the presidential car after the shooting as it was accelerating away. They knew well enough that there had been a negligent discharge and that it may, I repeat may, have hit the president.

Can you imagine the hue and cry if it had been revealed that those responsible for the safety of the president may have been responsible for his death, especially after spending a night on the tiles to the point of assigning an agent, whose responsibility was normally looking after the vehicles, to carry the rifle. It probably would have spelt the end of the secret service as an agency. No wonder they went into cover up mode.

gileraguy
9th Nov 2013, 12:09
Zigzactly Plovett.

There's the motivation for the SS's actions with the FBI notes and photos at the autopsy. Cockup...

500N
9th Nov 2013, 14:10
You talk of a billion to one shot yet others say it was a lot less than they thought when they went there.

What was the distance of Oswald to the President ?

con-pilot
9th Nov 2013, 17:32
Couple of semi-non-related things that have been posted here, I'll remark on.

First;

Interesting note from the book, LBJ always made the secret service agents stay well away from him as he thought he was in more danger from them than anyone else.

Well, he might have had a reason. When he was Vice-President he was in a C-140, the military verison of the Lockheed JetStar, a VIP verison operated by the 89th.

On one trip an Secret Service agent was sittling near the main cabin door, was fooling around with his gun and accidentally fired it, the bullet going through the cabin door. No other dammage was done and the landing was uneventful.

Last that the agent was heard of, he was counting polar bears in Northern Alaska.

Okay, that last bit I just threw in there. I was never told what happened to the agent.


Now, on Reagan being shot.

Wasn't it Reagan who nearly found out the hard way by not being taken straight to a hospital ?

Even Reagan did not know he had been shot at first. He had a pain in the side of his body, but he and his lead agent thought that he had injured something, or stressed something when he was roughly pushed into the limo. At that time they were heading for the White House to its medical facilities, this was because at the time the lead agent wanted to take Reagan to a secure site, and not too many places on Earth are as secure as the White House.

However, just a short time after leaving the shooting site, Reagan suddenly became worse and it became very evident that his condition was worse that even Reagan thought, that is when they changed destitations and headed to George Washington University Hospital. Where Reagan underwent a three hour operation.

500N
9th Nov 2013, 20:36
Re distances, then IMHO, an average person could pull off that shot.

50 - 100 metres is very close with a rifle.

Ozzy
9th Nov 2013, 21:55
OK. Here's the deal. Findings (http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1b.html) Now, can we please lock this one up?

Ozzy

Dushan
9th Nov 2013, 22:31
Ozzy, you're so nave. This is JB. By posting this link you are guaranteed another thousand pages on this thread.

SilsoeSid
9th Nov 2013, 23:28
If a Cold War warrior could hit a fig 11 at 600m with an iron sighted rifle ........ !

500N
10th Nov 2013, 00:14
Exactly.

I always thought the distance was a lot further than what the answer was above.

Ozzy
10th Nov 2013, 01:59
Cheers Dushan. I bow to your all knowing wisdom. Oops, my irony sensor just blocked me

Ozzy :)

Haraka
10th Nov 2013, 03:59
Not only was it not a challenge in distance for LHO or indeed an average "shot" , the oft quoted " Two seconds per shot to get three shots off in six seconds" is of course wrong. From shots one to three in six seconds puts it at a three second interval.
That is fairly leisurely, even with a bolt action.

TWT
10th Nov 2013, 04:17
cqg7CHEUJh0

onetrack
10th Nov 2013, 08:06
People just love a good conspiracy theory and can flesh out some unbelievable scenarios. Who would imagine an SS man would carry an AR-15 at his FEET, when he was on top security duty??
I know Americans are generally rated as pretty casual with their weapon handling, but I'll wager anyone on top security duty has their weapon close at hand, if not IN their hand.

I believe these two websites below systematically demolish any conspiracy theories and clearly show that Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole murderer of JFK and Officer J.D. Tippett.
The evidence is overwhelming, and it's not just eyewitness evidence, it's evidence from every available source.
The theory of an SS man accidentally shooting JFK is as laughable as all the other conspiracy theories.

http://oswald-is-guilty.B L O G S P O T.com.au/

The Zapruder Film of the Kennedy Assassination (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ2.htm)

probes
10th Nov 2013, 08:09
I could see a bullet lodged between his ear and his shoulder. It was pointed at its tip and showed no signs of damage. I remember looking at it there was no blunting of the bullet or scarring around the shell from where it had been fired.
Id had a great deal of experience working with gunshot wounds but I had never seen anything like this before.
It was about one-and-a-half inches long nothing like the bullets that were later produced.
It was taken away but never have I seen it presented in evidence or heard what happened to it. It remains a mystery.


Nurse Phyllis Hall tells of the efforts to revive President John F Kenndy after his shooting - and the disappearance of a mysterious undamaged bullet - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/nurse-phyllis-hall-tells-efforts-2713685)

fitliker
10th Nov 2013, 16:32
Why ? The Smoking Gun ?
If they believe in a conspiracy ,and more than one shooter should they not call themselves " The Smoking Guns' "

Hey, Look a squirrel :}

13

rgbrock1
11th Nov 2013, 14:03
500N wrote

Re distances, then IMHO, an average person could pull off that shot.

50 - 100 metres is very close with a rifle.

And as you know, sir, 50-100m is very VERY close with a rifle having a scope mounted on top!

500N
11th Nov 2013, 14:06
Yes it is.

I do a lot of shooting at that range with open sights so know what is possible and what is not.

Dushan
11th Nov 2013, 14:14
http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/rangers-mh-6.jpg

RGB, they never came. It was a bit frosty the last few nights, so that probably deterred them. I don't expect to see them until May, then, since we are expecting 4" of global warming tonight and Arctic air for the rest of the week.

rgbrock1
11th Nov 2013, 14:15
Army Rangers couldn't give a rat's ass about how cold it is outside: we have balls of lead!!!

They didn't come by last night, or any other of the past few nights, because they were busy. :}:}

Mac the Knife
11th Nov 2013, 14:27
A well-setup rifle & scope on a clear windless day should give you a headshot at 100m everytime

Mac

500N
11th Nov 2013, 14:31
100 metres ?

More like 250 - 300 metres with a well set up scope and rifle with todays modern optics.

rgbrock1
11th Nov 2013, 14:32
Mac the Knife: indeed. A relatively easy shot. Although the target, JFK, was in a moving vehicle, the limo was moving very slowly AND down hill. A down hill slope makes the slowly moving target seem almost stationary when aiming with a scope.

500N:

Modern optics were not applicable in '63. Regardless, the Carcano Oswald used had a 4x18 Ordnance Optics side-mounted scope. With a 4x scope at 50-100m Oswald should have been able to see the dandruff on JFK's head. (Not saying he had any. Just as an example.)

PLovett
11th Nov 2013, 20:12
Regardless, the Carcano Oswald used had a 4x18 Ordnance Optics side-mounted scope.

That was not aligned with the rifle according to evidence given at the Warren Commission. It has been suggested that Oswald's first shot missed because he was using the telescopic sights. He then shifted to using the rifle's open sights for the subsequent shot(s). Given the distance involved, a still feasible shot.

Lonewolf_50
12th Nov 2013, 14:36
A well-setup rifle & scope on a clear windless day should give you a headshot at 100m everytime
Mac
Yep.

The only part of the entire issue that bothers me is Jack Ruby shooting Oswald, and Ruby shortly after dying in prison ... I don't find that a mere coincidence. I also don't have enough depth of understanding to put the pieces together on that.

chuks
13th Nov 2013, 04:37
Ruby lasted a relatively long time in prison before dying of natural causes. It was not as though he was tried, convicted, imprisoned, and then croaked six months later.

From what we were told about Ruby's personality, it seemed plausible that he did it to get attention, plus some sort of vigilante impulse to kill the man who had just killed the President, but, no, we will never know for certain what made him do that.

It was the same, this uncertainty, with James Earl Ray, the man who shot Martin Luther King.

Lonewolf_50
13th Nov 2013, 22:01
chuks:
The mob was Ruby's "friend." And Ruby could well have been paying off an IOU the day he was used to kill Lee Harvey Oswald. Remember: "I have been used for a purpose," the way Ruby expressed it to Chief Justice Warren in their June 7, 1964 session. It would not have been hard for the mob to maneuver Ruby through the ranks of a few negotiable police [to kill Oswald].
Suffocation can cause the symptoms that a coroner would find to be "what he died of."

Of course, when one has a terminal disease, one will tend to die.

chuks
14th Nov 2013, 14:36
Life itself is sort of terminal, yes? Otherwise, this place would be pretty crowded!

Jack Ruby had cancer and died because of that, according to the official story. There's not much in that to suggest that he was done away with.

From what I know about the Mafia (I have watched a few gangster movies, that is), they would have you stabbed three ways in the prison showers or the chow line, if they wanted you dead. Waiting so long for cancer ... nah, not their style.

rgbrock1
14th Nov 2013, 15:09
Then was it also coincidence that Jack Ruby was in Mexico City the same time as Oswald? Why is that? Were they both there to buy Tacos?

con-pilot
14th Nov 2013, 16:31
Then was it also coincidence that Jack Ruby was in Mexico City the same time as Oswald? Why is that? Were they both there to buy Tacos?

Ah ha, now we know who was behind the assassination of Kennedy, Mexico. :p

rgbrock1
14th Nov 2013, 16:43
That's right, con, Mexico. Because Kennedy was known for his hatred of Tacos.
And if you hate Tacos, well then, all bets are off as far as the Mexicans are concerned. :}

Lonewolf_50
14th Nov 2013, 17:15
Life itself is sort of terminal, yes?
True, it's killin' me.
Jack Ruby had cancer and died because of that, according to the official story. There's not much in that to suggest that he was done away with.
[quote] From what I know about the Mafia (I have watched a few gangster movies, that is), they would have you stabbed three ways in the prison showers or the chow line, if they wanted you dead. [QUOTE]
Suffocated with a pillow. Nurse distracted, a fella uses his weight and a pillow, sick man in bed kicks off, and Bob's your uncle.

In 1963 there were not as many of the modern beeping and wailing accessories attached to people at all times.

Again, this is under the idea that the mob had a reason to get rid of him at a given point in time, as he'd had 4 years to squeal after killing Oswald and apparently hadn't yet.

And he also may have died, Occam's Razor suggests, due to cancer finally closing the deal on him.

rgbrock1
14th Nov 2013, 17:38
LW50 wrote:

Again, this is under the idea that the mob had a reason to get rid of him at a given point in time,

Get rid of Ruby? Or JFK?

Andu
14th Nov 2013, 23:17
In the early 70s, Martha Mitchell alleged that the CIA had injected her with cancer-inducing chemicals. She was ridiculed at the time by the media, but some years later, after she'd died of cancer, I'm pretty sure some evidence surfaced that strongly suggested that she had been right.

500N
14th Nov 2013, 23:53
Quite a few things you can spread around someones house to cause
short and long term effects on people and families so it wouldn't
surprise me what went on in the past.

After all, if they can do rendition flight in 20xx, imagine what they
got way with in the past !