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Cacophonix
31st Oct 2013, 00:38
You know the story. On the flickering screen, in black and white, the beautiful female fighter controller or WAAF (a member of the beauty chorus) says in her clipped RADA accent

"Calling Danny Boy, calling Danny Boy, this is Baker, do you read, over?"...

and from far out over the imaginary channel comes the dulcet tones of a young game man

"Baker this is Danny Boy, old girl, we have just given the Hun a good licking"...

Great stuff and good news what with those dastardly Germans getting their comeuppance in such refined tones but what was that Dannie Boy nonsense and why were the bombers always designated S for Sugar and why did it always end over?

Over and out...!

Caco

500N
31st Oct 2013, 01:39
Caco

It's "Broadsword calling Danny Boy" !

Dushan
31st Oct 2013, 01:44
Caco, isn't there a Youtube clip to illustrate the matter?

500N
31st Oct 2013, 01:48
"but what was that Dannie Boy nonsense"

What do you mean nonsense !

It has achieved cult status in the world of war films.

The reason for the nice, female voices is because it might be the last
one they ever hear !:O

LookingForAJob
31st Oct 2013, 02:51
Can't make the YouTube embedding thing work but here's the link - Broadsword calling danny boy - YouTube (http://youtu.be/CdaeBiF__u4?t=16s).

And not a female voice to be heard!

Cacophonix
31st Oct 2013, 06:07
Pilots and aviation pundits can be so particular not to say unimaginative at times...

It was "Broadsword calling Danny Boy" in that particular film. In my own whimsical evocation of all such films there is a woman (I imagine her a bit like Susannah York in the Battle of Britain, all blond and fresh and English, probably wearing complicated black stockings and suspenders) and she says Baker or even Buffalo! ;)

I also need to know why the RAF phonetic alphabet didn't survive after the war (it changed during the war once the American fliers arrive didn't it)?

Was it that Britain defeated the Germans only to be defeated in turn by a bureaucracy like the EU or in this case the ICAO?

Enough with this Sierra already, I miss S for Sugar.

For Dushan (I know how much he likes my embedded videos)...

Morse Code Song - YouTube



Caco

Cacophonix
31st Oct 2013, 06:21
Caco's dream WAAF.... (RIP SY)

http://georgesjournal.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/susannah_york_battle_of_britain.jpg

Caco

500N
31st Oct 2013, 06:25
Caco

You are treading on the toes of BEagle :O

Any opportunity to put that photo up :ok:

Cacophonix
31st Oct 2013, 06:40
One's mind is a dark morass on a dark wet morning in the UK 500N.

On such a morning an image of the beautiful Ms York is just the ticket methinks! ;)

Charlie Alpha Charlie Oscar

jolihokistix
31st Oct 2013, 06:48
Meanwhile I always carry my trusty Zippo, from Bradford, PA. with a frightfully useful I.C.A.O. multi-tool in the side slot. :8

LL = all the members safe, II = Need medical supplies, I = need doctor, F = need foodstuffs, Y = yes and N = Nope.

500N
31st Oct 2013, 06:52
Caco

As much as some of the old words used in the RAF Phonetic alphabet
were nice, I much prefer the universal Nato Phonetic alphabet to use.

Also less ambiguity in the meanings of words.

Cacophonix
31st Oct 2013, 06:55
Also less ambiguity in the meanings of words.

Ach you utilitarian's, always so precise, always killing people with a straight Morse key... ;)

Caco

Lightning Mate
31st Oct 2013, 06:56
You can still say "Whisky" in Saudi airspace.

500N
31st Oct 2013, 06:58
But don't say "Repeat" unless you want another salvo on top of you :O

Cacophonix
31st Oct 2013, 06:59
You can still say "Whisky" in Saudi airspace.

But not on the ground surely...? ;) <<I know, don't call you Shirley>>

Caco

ExSp33db1rd
31st Oct 2013, 07:25
My info. on the change to ICAO phonetics - vice Able Baker Charlie Dog - was because "Latin" tongues couldn't get pronounce some of the words ?

I have no idea if this was fact or fiction.

I once practised saying Firenze all the way from Beirut to Rome, and then passed our position report as XXX XXX and estimating Firenze at XXXXX, and the conroller acknowledged, roger, Speedbird 913, call again over Florence !! At least I tried.

In Singapore, the telephone operators in various establishments, used the names of countries or city's , i.e. Albania, Brussels, Canada, Denmark etc. Not sure what they did for X but Yugolsavia and Zimbabwe finished of the alphabet.

500N
31st Oct 2013, 07:29
ExSp

That is my understanding of it as well. Which is what I was trying to say when
I mentioned meaning !!!

The words are easy to say in any tongue, even non native english.

Cacophonix
31st Oct 2013, 07:31
The words are easy to say in any tongue, even non native english.


That must please French ATCOs...

Caco

Lightning Mate
31st Oct 2013, 07:31
Some Spanish speakers have problems with "Huliet".

ExSp33db1rd
31st Oct 2013, 07:41
I believe it is - or was - "legal" to use the national language to talk to an aircraft registered in that same country, and I can recall hearing French ATCO's talking to French aircraft in French - which is very useful, no one else knows where the F... they are.

Best was a Qantas pilot talking to Paris as he approached that VOR nearby that is totally unpronouncable, uses all the vowels and most of the consonants at least twice, went something like this ....

Paris control this is Qantas 9, over Dee-John at 14, flt.level 330, estimating Ram..... estimating Rambooo .....estimating Ramboooooilll .... estimating Rambollocks at 56. Err.... Qantas 9, zay agenn ? Jeez, I just told ya, .... whereupon he repeated, ending with Rambollocks again. At this point a very British accent chipped in and said ..... that's right Cobber, you tell them.

Cacophonix
31st Oct 2013, 07:53
Rambollocks

Rambouillet .... :D

Caco

500N
31st Oct 2013, 08:10
LM

Re Juliet, noting else sounds like it !

Even if they say "Huliet", you still get the "iet" clearly.

Just my HO.

Ancient Mariner
31st Oct 2013, 08:44
And then you have these:
Æ (http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86) Ægir Ærlig
Ø (http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98) Ørnulf Østen
Å (http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85) Ågot Åse
Per

Tankertrashnav
31st Oct 2013, 08:59
Many years after the adoption of the NATO alphabet, the old Consol station at Bush Mills, Northern Ireland (ident MWN) was still universally referred to as 'Mike Willy Nan'.

Lon More
31st Oct 2013, 10:28
Do you know the Queen Fox Easy?

Smeagol
31st Oct 2013, 10:40
I was once told that Wick Radio (call sign GKR) was know as....

Galloping Knob Rot

chevvron
31st Oct 2013, 10:48
As late as December 1970, I heard a LATCC radar controller say 'resume own navigation direct Daventry, your Queen Dog Mike is' ......!
By the way, the current Queen Nan How where I am is 1017 (millibars not hectopascals)

radeng
31st Oct 2013, 12:48
From the viewpoint of syllabic redundancy, the pre war international maritime one of Amsterdam, Baltimore, Casablanca, Danemark, Edison, Florida, Gallipoli etc had a lot to be said for it, although Edison is too short and lacking in strong syllables - Eddystone would have been better.

However, Xanthippe was NOT a good choice, and I doubt she was widely known of pre-war.

Wetstart Dryrun
31st Oct 2013, 13:05
'Ay for 'orses
B for mutton
C for miles

...etc etc

wets (X for breakfast)

Dak Man
31st Oct 2013, 13:50
Ref Danny Boy, maybe the pipes, the pipes were calling......

wings folded
31st Oct 2013, 14:23
Rambouillet is not that hard. "Ram" "Boo" "Yeh"

I have a fond memory of a KLM skipper telling us that we would be flying over the city of Ottringham en route AMS to JFK. Being Dutch, he called it the "shitty of Ottringham", which I thought was accurate enough.

Population of 597 and two dogs, one of which was asleep.

VORs and NDBs are rarely located where there are huge concentrations of population, but their significance to drivers of flying machines are of course rather particular.

Lightning Mate
31st Oct 2013, 14:38
the current Queen Nan How

I always remember QNH as "Queenie Ann Howe".

radeng
31st Oct 2013, 17:19
You have to decide what the purpose is of the phonetics. If it is to communicate under poor or very poor signal to noise ratio conditions, long words are best because of syllabic redundancy - just as you have error correction in digital systems by sending more digits. However, where you are dealing with relatively good signal to noise ratio - as in most 'professional' communications - but strong accents, the choice of words is more made on ease of recognition. The ICAO/ITU/NATO alphabet is good in that respect but a lot of the words are 'soft' in terms of speech energy and so aren't so good when well down in the noise. It does have the advantage of being well known, however, so familiarity helps - but not when the signal to noise ratio gets down to 3 or 4 dB.

A number of radio amateurs found this some 40+ years ago with weak signals on VHF.

Dak Man
31st Oct 2013, 17:20
^^^^^ NERD ALERT ^^^^^^

;);););)

radeng
31st Oct 2013, 17:29
Too technical for you, Dak Man?

Dak Man
31st Oct 2013, 17:56
Yep, I wonder how many digital aeroplanes of today's world will be around in 70+ years?

Lon More
31st Oct 2013, 19:46
Strumble gave a lot of Ammuricans problems but most of them found St. Rumble OK In fact they had problems with all the Nav Aid along the G1 as far as Natterschwein, sorry, Not at heim, Nettle wine ....

ExSp33db1rd
31st Oct 2013, 20:05
Even if they say "Huliet", you still get the "iet" clearly.But don't they say Hoo Li Aye ?

Rambouillet is not that hard. "Ram" "Boo" "Yeh"Not if you're Australian ( or School Cert. French fail standard like me)

Norwich VOR on the East Coast USA also gave a lot of fun, we'd say Norrich, and ATC would be puzzled until we said Nor Witch.

Phuket in Thailand was a source of fun as well ! Heard one skipper call it Foo Kay.

There's currently an Aus. road sign advertising holiday travel, it just says " Phuket ! give yourself a break." or words to that effect. ( might be a spoof, haven't bothered to check Snopes )

ExSp33db1rd
31st Oct 2013, 20:22
the "shitty of Ottringham",

NZ Coastguard conference once had a talk by a member of the UK RNLI from Poole, Dorset. He started by saying the that the River Piddle pees its' way through Dorset to empty into Poole Harbour, and he personally lived nearby in Shitterton. Fom then on he had a wrapt audience !

Side issue - lots of villages in Dorset took their name from the River Piddle that flowed through them, some still exist, like Piddletrenthide, Piddlehinton etc. but when Queen Victoria took the train to open Portland Naval Base, the Great Poo Bahs of the Palace declared it indelicate for H.M. to see the word piddle, so the villages through which the Royal Train passed, were commanded to change the station name plates to end in Puddle, so we now have Puddletown, Tolpuddle ( the origin of Australia ! ) Affpuddle etc.

Nor Many People Know That !

NZScion
31st Oct 2013, 20:22
You have to decide what the purpose is of the phonetics. If it is to communicate under poor or very poor signal to noise ratio conditions, long words are best because of syllabic redundancy - just as you have error correction in digital systems by sending more digits. However, where you are dealing with relatively good signal to noise ratio - as in most 'professional' communications - but strong accents, the choice of words is more made on ease of recognition. The ICAO/ITU/NATO alphabet is good in that respect but a lot of the words are 'soft' in terms of speech energy and so aren't so good when well down in the noise. It does have the advantage of being well known, however, so familiarity helps - but not when the signal to noise ratio gets down to 3 or 4 dB.

A number of radio amateurs found this some 40+ years ago with weak signals on VHF.
Warning aviation content:


Am I the only one who sometimes finds it more difficult to distinguish the phonetically correct TOO from TREE, than a normally pronounced two and three, in aforementioned conditions?

Loose rivets
31st Oct 2013, 20:35
In my tale, (wot I rote) the people in charge of a technology that enables instant communication everywhere, love to ply the protagonist with Roger-Wilcos, and Queen Mike Dogs. They think it makes him feel at home - despite being dead.

I hate when folk say, A as in Apple. C, as in cucumber . . . I especially hate it when the Rivetess does it, as she's known the phonetic alphabet for 40 years and just does it to annoy me.

But why do people have to say, as in. A, as in Aaaaaaaardvark. B, as in bloooooooooomers. Whatever next? V, as in Vitriolic reaction to twattery?

500N
31st Oct 2013, 20:38
Loose

"and just does it to annoy me."

You could always revert back to the Dam Busters code word for the destruction of the dam :O

radeng
31st Oct 2013, 20:43
NZScion

You and me both. But you could use the correct 'As a number, as a number, Bravo' or 'As a number, as a number, Charlie' for two and three respectively!

That would likely cause even more confusion...

Loose rivets
31st Oct 2013, 20:47
You could always revert back to the Dam Busters code word for the destruction of the dam

No, I wouldn't want to get chastised.

chevvron
31st Oct 2013, 21:18
That should only happen if you use lower case instead of upper case for the first letter.

ExSp33db1rd
31st Oct 2013, 21:46
That would likely cause even more confusion... I have difficulty with 5 and 9, and Mrs. ExS thinks I'm being a pompous old Pr**k when I use Fife and Niner on the telephone ! ( but then she's American, and we have almost daily battles along the 'glass half empty or half full' variety. ( you say Tomatoh, I say Tomayto etc )

Cornish Jack
31st Oct 2013, 22:17
Around the time of the changeover from Able Baker to Alpha Bravo, there was a certain amount of confusion and hesitation. One of my mates was 'Siggie' on the only serviceable Beverley operating around the Arabian Peninsula. Fed up with stumbling through his callsign he amended it to Mike Oscar Blunderbuss Xmas (EXmas) Gurgle and continued thus for some time - with no repercussions:ok:

G-CPTN
31st Oct 2013, 22:19
Aitch or Haitch?

radeng
31st Oct 2013, 22:21
'Xmas' was accepted for 'X' for British intership working pre WW2!

reynoldsno1
1st Nov 2013, 01:07
Rambouillet is not that hard. "Ram" "Boo" "Yeh" - but yer don't want to sound like a native. I speak some basic French, but the first time I ever contacted a French controller, I tried to be too clever. They obviously decided to test me, and responded in rapid fire Froggie. I had to say 'say again' in Anglais ...

chuks
1st Nov 2013, 07:45
Some Nigerians I knew thought this whole business with "niner" was just some speshul way pilots liked to talk, so that they enhanced their vocabulary with "fiver" for "fife"! So, you had then to sort out the "fivers" from the "niners," which put you back to Square One. Sigh....

Interestingly, ze Chermans use "fun-uff" instead of "foonf" for "funf" (five), in the same way that we use "niner" for "nine."

I keep coming across this misconception of people thinking that English is some sort of required language in R/T, when it's not, not at all! One encounters French being used in francophone Africa, a mixture of French, Arabic and English being used in Algeria, a mix of Spanish and English being used in Spain... it's a good idea to learn some basic phrases in other languages, just to know what the other traffic is being cleared to do.

In fact, if you want to operate to uncontrolled airfields and use the radio in Germany, you need a radio license, the BZF, that is issued after passing a test done in German. There's another radio license, the AZF, that is issued to those who can speak both English and German. The "A" means "general," and the "B" means "restricted," as in "restricted to the use of German."