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wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 13:55
So, the son of a Suffolk vicar has been charged with hacking into computer systems of the US army, Nasa and other federal agencies, which appear to be the US Missile Defense Agency, and the Environmental Protection Agency, the prosecutors said.
While there are, as yet, unsubstantiated allegations that the Dame Merkel's mobile phone was hacked by sophisticated US outfits, is there not a little bit of a doubt about how the bastions of US national security can be so vulnerable, on the one hand, and how when the table is turned, the US winds up all of its legal indignation against this bloke?

Lonewolf_50
29th Oct 2013, 14:02
"If you pull a tiger's tail, expect to get bitten by the tiger."

A lesson that predates your birth, or mine.

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 14:14
And if a tiger attacks you and you are suitably armed, you shoot it.

Airborne Aircrew
29th Oct 2013, 14:38
The question I have is why these super smart world leaders are discussing sensitive information over standard phones? :rolleyes:

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 14:53
There's a lot to be said for the US Constitution's effort to assert the rights of individuals against the power of government. Challenges to those rights seem to be occurring more and more each day.

My concern is that the citizenry has become so numb and dumb that there aren't enough people cognizant or courageous enough to defend against the onslaught. I fear we're down to just the 'old white men', and that won't be enough.

Thankfully, I'm at retirement age and won't have to live through the worst of the consequences. But I wish I could've handed down something better.

Lonewolf_50
29th Oct 2013, 14:55
And if a tiger attacks you and you are suitably armed, you shoot it.
May in infer from that your agreemeent with our Second Amendment advocates on this side of the pond? ;) You can't do any shooting if you aren't suitably armed. (The hacking is more like a satchel charge in a CP, if you want my analogy on it ... )

Sorry, thread drift, not cricket. :O

cattletruck
29th Oct 2013, 15:00
the son of a Suffolk vicar has been charged with hacking into computer systems of the US army, Nasa and other federal agencies

At any given point of time, there is always a kid somewhere trying to hack into US government systems, probably driven by the challenge rather than malicious intent.

is there not a little bit of a doubt about how the bastions of US national security can be so vulnerable, on the one hand, and how when the table is turned, the US winds up all of its legal indignation against this bloke?

The little kid suddenly becomes a convenient scapegoat for the illegal actions of the CIA, FBI, Mossad, or whichever secret government entity that needs to cover its backside.

The Flying Pram
29th Oct 2013, 15:03
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case, I can't help thinking there is a certain irony about the US, who are happy to eavesdrop on all and sundry via the all powerful NSA, complaining when someone gives them a taste of their own medicine...

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 15:14
May in infer from that your agreemeent with our Second Amendment advocates on this side of the pond? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif You can't do any shooting if you aren't suitably armed.
No you may not.

The main reason is that I have absolutely no authority to agree or disagree in that area, being neither a citizen nor a resident. So you do as you please.

I am allowed, I think, to believe that some of your armed fellow citizens with an unstable mentality are probably a more common hazard than tigers on US soil, but I could be wrong, of course.

con-pilot
29th Oct 2013, 15:14
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case, I can't help thinking there is a certain irony about the US, who are happy to eavesdrop on all and sundry via the all powerful NSA, complaining when someone gives them a taste of their own medicine...

Careful now, you're talking about our Nobel Peace Prize winning President. Who is claiming, through his Press Secretary (Washington's version of Baghdad Bob) that he don't know nuttin'. :p

Which means one of two things. One, he's lying. Two, he doesn't know what his most important intelligence agency is doing.

Both are bad.

The Flying Pram
29th Oct 2013, 15:24
Which means one of two things.According to German newspaper Bild am Sonntag he's lying...

President Barack Obama was dragged into the trans-Atlantic spying row after it was claimed he personally authorised the monitoring of Angela Merkelís phone three years ago (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html)

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 15:35
I dare say that not too many people would challenge the proposition that the US are pioneers and leaders in IT skills.

How is it, therefore, that a geek in Suffolk can render such havoc? Why cannot these highly sensitive facilities be better protected?

I pay a modest sum to protect my computer from hacks (not sure if it works, of course), can the US not afford it?

Of course Obama is not quite being authentic with the truth; he is a political beasts after all

The Flying Pram
29th Oct 2013, 15:46
It is regularly postulated that major Antivirus and Anti-Malware vendors are "pressured" by authorities to leave back-doors in their products, and/or stop them from reporting such weaknesses. Online security is a continual game of "Cat & Mouse", with teams of hackers constantly looking for exploits. There will always be the occasional genius who is ahead of the game. Perhaps this lad found such a backdoor, and turned the tables?

The US government may have huge resources at their disposal, but in terms of results per $ I would say the hackers are better value...

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 15:51
When you discard blind meritocracy in favor of connections, affirmative action, gender politics, and the like, these things happen.

Lonewolf_50
29th Oct 2013, 15:53
I am allowed, I think, to believe that some of your armed fellow citizens with an unstable mentality are probably a more common hazard than tigers on US soil, but I could be wrong, of course. ;) Indeed: an old saying is "the most dangerous beast in the forest walks on two feet." It does not refer to a Jabberwocky. :cool:

As to hacking being a vulnerability, some of us have been critical of the over-effiiency, over-centralized "net centric" make up of the DoD for a couple of decades because: when you create a new capability, you create new problems to solve for your enemy and yourself. That second half of that point was too often overlooked for too long.

IT security concerns go back as far as the 80's and back door concerns like the following:

"A pissed off computer programmer (or one with anti government sympathies of any variatin) works for one of many US DoD sub contractors. With a little prodding, and "to get back at the man" he puts a back door into the missile guidance software of the Aegis ship SM-2 missiles. This software is hard coded in all SM-2's of Lot XXXX.
A raid!
The missiles go off the rails, but due to the back door in the code, a certain signal (let us presume from any Badger or Bear in a mass ASM raid has a transmitter, guess who prodded our programmer with an attitude? ;)) triggers that code. The missile fuse stops working before it reaches the plane or ASM it is shot at. It flies along, dumb and happy until it runs out of fuel. The task force is soon not so happy, and now puts man overboard and damage control drills into practice." :{

That scenario (more or less) was put forth in the US Naval Institute Proceedings back in the 80's. One of the concerns was overreliance on IT ...

Far more complex security risks have developed since then, to include things like Manning style theft and disclosure of files to other less mundane ... DOS and DDOS attacks on particular C2 and C4I nodes are not unheard of, and more common than the man on the street knows.

The attempts at system penetration are a different approach to the espionage problem than getting the right fella drunk and having him spill the beans to the hottie spy babe. It is possibly more effective per pound of effort expended.

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 16:39
DOS and DDOS attacks on particular C2 and C4I nodes are not unheard of

I had not heard of them until a few moments ago when I read your post, and I have not the foggiest clue what you are on about.

To get back to what mere mortals can comprehend, why are your most sensitive systems so vulnerable to a geek vicar's son in Suffolk?

Are you happy that you can extradite him, bombard him with injunctions or whatever else, when he is nothing more than a slightly clever IT fanatic?

What do you think China, North Korea, or the peoples' republic of the Isle of Wight can achieve if your sensitive national data is so crappily defended?

Tankertrashnav
29th Oct 2013, 16:48
The question I have is why these super smart world leaders are discussing sensitive information over standard phones? :rolleyes:

I'd be amazed if Angela Merkel who grew up in East Germany under the shadow of the Stasi and has been subject to surveillance all of her life, ever uses her phone for anything more sensitive than telling Herr Merkel that's she's going to be home late and could he get the bratwurst and sauerkraut ready for her return!

Airborne Aircrew
29th Oct 2013, 16:58
TTN:

Then why are we listening to her... Someone would appear to think that getting her brat from Herr Merkel is worth listening to... :}

tony draper
29th Oct 2013, 17:02
Didn't we do the same 39 -45? Bletchley Park and all that jazz.
Tiz prudent to keep toot on the Hun.:E

VP959
29th Oct 2013, 17:06
Apart from the fact that this hacker will, no doubt, face the full wrath of the US government, this situation is completely farcical.

We have the situation where the US sees nothing wrong with hacking into every communication system on the planet, eaves dropping on the 'phone calls and emails of whoever they wish, yet are getting their knickers in a twist just because some geek hacks into their own systems?

FFS, where's the sense of reality here?

If the US government object to people hacking into their computer systems, perhaps the first thing they should do is stop doing it on the global scale that they are at the moment to most other nations on the planet. Until then, I'd suggest they, and any other government (like our own) that feels it's OK to hack into the systems of other countries, including allies, just STFU when they get the same treatment.

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 17:21
its tactics are those of a bully, its quite simple, they have a big stick and don't give a rats arse about anyone else, unless they have a bigger one


I, too, am at odds with the Democrat party, and Socialism in general, Lone_Ranger.

tony draper
29th Oct 2013, 17:29
They broke the Golden Rule,Thou Shalt Not Get Caught.:uhoh:

Dak Man
29th Oct 2013, 17:29
Congressional hearing live here

Intel Officials Discuss Proposed Changes to NSA Spying Programs | C-SPAN (http://www.c-span.org/Events/Intel-Officials-Discuss-Proposed-Changes-to-NSA-Spying-Programs/10737442346-1/)

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 17:32
I, too, am at odds with the Democrat party, and Socialism in general, Lone_Ranger.


That is absolutely fascinating and well known. What has it got to do with the topic? Nothing whatsoever.

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 17:35
Think a little harder than you're used to, wings, and you'll make the connection.

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 17:44
Benthere

How about a relevant response to the topic?
Or are you just an automated response engine?

con-pilot
29th Oct 2013, 17:45
What has it got to do with the topic?

Remember the promise of 'Hope and Change', with implied intent that if elected President, the US would not do this sort (Bush) of thing again?

Well it quite obvious that 'Change' has gone right out the window and 'Hope' is not looking very hopeful anymore.

Since Obama has been elected not much has changed and it is business as usual in Washington, much like it has been since the start of World War Two. Perhaps even longer.

At least that is what I took from Lone Ranger's post.



I could be wrong you know, it does happen. :p

Dak Man
29th Oct 2013, 17:52
LOL, see the oversize "STOP SPYING" sunglasses being worn in the background..

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 18:09
Think just a little harder still, wings. You're almost there; I can feel it!

Soon, you'll see the futility of socialism.

Dushan
29th Oct 2013, 18:19
So, the son of a Suffolk vicar has been charged with hacking into computer systems of the US army, Nasa and other federal agencies, which appear to be the US Missile Defense Agency, and the Environmental Protection Agency, the prosecutors said.
While there are, as yet, unsubstantiated allegations that the Dame Merkel's mobile phone was hacked by sophisticated US outfits, is there not a little bit of a doubt about how the bastions of US national security can be so vulnerable, on the one hand, and how when the table is turned, the US winds up all of its legal indignation against this bloke?

I feel sorry woe the wee lad. The full wrath of US government will be unleashed upon him because he hacked the EPA, thus possibly exposing, for all to see, the farce that it is. As for Army and Missile Defence, the Obama administration has utmost disdain for them, they'd be happy to post the access codes on Faecebook.

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 18:27
Benthere

Your political views are well known.

You elect not to answer the topic which I started, but instead try to make political points.

That is your choice, but you may just be making yourself look foolish, or perhaps a hero amongst those who share your views.

Answer the questions posed and desist from your agenda; it is worn out and of no interest.

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 18:30
Okay. Could you restate the questions, please?

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 18:38
Look at post number one on this thread.

If it is not clear, let me know and I will try to make it clearer. Just for you

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 18:41
Thanks, wings.

Make it clearer, just for me, please.

Pelikal
29th Oct 2013, 18:44
WF/BT, why don't you two take your bickering match elsewhere.:\

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 18:50
So, the son of a Suffolk vicar has been charged with hacking into computer systems of the US army, Nasa and other federal agencies, which appear to be the US Missile Defense Agency, and the Environmental Protection Agency, the prosecutors said.


Are we OK so far?


While there are, as yet, unsubstantiated allegations that the Dame Merkel's mobile phone was hacked by sophisticated US outfits,

Do you not acknowleged this version of events?



is there not a little bit of a doubt about how the bastions of US national security can be so vulnerable, on the one hand, and how when the table is turned, the US winds up all of its legal indignation against this bloke?


If that is not clear, then your comprehension difficulties are well beyond my skills to remedy them

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 18:56
Pelikal

WF/BT, why don't you two take your bickering match elsewhere.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif


Why not close down the whole website?

If you do not like it, do not read it.

It is called debate.

Pelikal
29th Oct 2013, 18:59
wings folded, thanks (sincerely). Much clearer.

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 19:04
I thought the thread had gone deeper than that.

I can dismiss your initial post, then, with the fact that very little legal indignation has been directed to the case. More of a mosquito, I'd say, this son of a vicar.

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 19:13
I can dismiss your initial post, then,

You can, and no doubt, will, dismiss that which does not fit your agenda.

As you please.

Still no answer to a rather tricky question. Not surprising.

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 19:25
You can, and no doubt, will, dismiss that which does not fit your agenda.


As you did.

Didn't catch it. What was the tricky question?

And, pelikel, WF/BT, why don't you two take your bickering match elsewhere.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif , this is the place for bickering. Why don't you take your noise elsewhere?

Lonewolf_50
29th Oct 2013, 19:36
I had not heard of them until a few moments ago when I read your post, and I have not the foggiest clue what you are on about.
DOS and DDOS are Denial of Service Attack and Distributed Denial of Service attack. These have been in the info security and info warfare lexicon for over a decade. Feel free to look them up and educate yourself. They are a facet of the information age, which we live in and which allows the two of us to banter on forums, among other things.
(Never forget, however, that The Internet is for Porn!) :E
To get back to what mere mortals can comprehend, why are your most sensitive systems so vulnerable to a geek vicar's son in Suffolk? It's a feature of the expanded use of what was once DARPA net, and the development of html protocols, and much else. Some advantages, some disadvantages, as I noted above.
Are you happy that you can extradite him, bombard him with injunctions or whatever else, when he is nothing more than a slightly clever IT fanatic? Yes. As above: you pull the tiger's tail, you may get bitten. He wasn't just looking for some better porn, ya see ...
What do you think China, North Korea, or the peoples' republic of the Isle of Wight can achieve if your sensitive national data is so crappily defended?
A great deal more, and no, I am not the least bit happy about it. See my points above on how some of us criticized, in vain, this network centric and network dependent DoD (and governmental) architecture.

VP
We have the situation where the US sees nothing wrong with hacking into every communication system on the planet, eaves dropping on the 'phone calls and emails of whoever they wish, yet are getting their knickers in a twist just because some geek hacks into their own systems? Real life isn't a tennis match. I hope you understand. I learned while in NATO that you really can't trust all of your allies all of the time. While the French were particularly egregious in that regard, others were collecting on us as well. It's what governments do when there is limited trust. Had some trouble with the Japanese in that regard as well.

In the real world, it's realpolitik. The limited trust afforded various allies is in part due to us also being commercial rivals, and in part because no two nations' objectives completely align with one another. See the cod wars with Iceland and NATO ally UK as one of many examples. Spanish ships and canadian coast guard, more recently ...

With some nations, we have better trust relationships than with others.

I find the crybaby act by Ms Merkel farcical. FFS, realpolitik comes to us from that German master of statecraft, Otto von Bismarck. (After the blut und eisen period ending in 1871, he spent a decade or so working the "always be on the side of three out of five powers" angle to great politial success in Imperial Europe.)
Yellow card, at the least, for her blubbering. Diving, that was.

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 19:49
I will try one more time.

Why can the nation with the best IT intellects in the world not be capable of creating a secure environment for their most sensitive data?

Lonewolf_50
29th Oct 2013, 19:52
Quantity has a quality all of its own.
Every connection out there, in the world, is a potential avenue for penetration. How do you keep all of the ants out of your kitchen?

Quite frankly, a lot of users of these systems create holes, or leave them open.

You have already been given the other correct answer: what one man builds and locks another can try to open/crack. Been true since the first lock and key were invented. This is a change in form, not substance.

Suggest you investigate an info security primer course. Ignorance can be overcome by education. I infer from your offerings that you are a quick study and sharp enough to digest the essentials.

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 19:56
Why can the nation with the best IT intellects in the world not be capable of creating a secure environment for their most sensitive data?
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=8124292)

It's not a question of capability but one of management, priorities, and the resultant allocation of talent and resources.

Pelikal
29th Oct 2013, 20:00
And, pelikel, Quote:
WF/BT, why don't you two take your bickering match elsewhere.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif
, this is the place for bickering. Why don't you take your noise elsewhere? Fair enough. Fair comment.:ok:

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 20:03
So, in other words, it is normal for a kid in the Uk to be able to infiltrate your key IT installations.

So why bleat about it and furthermore wheel out your omnipotent legal measures?

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 20:09
Pelikal,

What an excellent response!

Can I talk you into hanging around JetBlast and posting your thoughts more often?

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 20:15
It's not a question of capability but one of management, priorities, and the resultant allocation of talent and resources.


You must be highly proud that your nation with the incomparable IT skills which your fellow citizens enjoy cannot securize (see, I even use your spelling) some of your most sensitive data.

Gosh, you are clever, you lot.

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 20:26
Thing is, wings, the folks running the show now have no respect for security, preservation of secrets, respect for allies, and general maintenance of the world order. What they are focused on is political power and increasing their majority in the electorate. That's all that matters.

Protecting national security is no more than an afterthought, addressable only when it becomes a political issue.

radeng
29th Oct 2013, 20:34
So where did my earlier post go which asked if it was another case of sensitive information being protected by a system with a user name of "guest" and a password of "password"?

Is this a suggestion that too many "secure" systems are like that in the US?

wings folded
29th Oct 2013, 20:38
BenThere

Could you leave political bias to one side for a moment, and answer my sincere question about why the US with its excellence in matters IT is apparently so open to attack?

angels
29th Oct 2013, 20:53
Gentlemen, please.

I think this affair is absolutely fascinating. The biter bit and all that.

Perhaps they should hire him to install some proper security. This is, of course, has been done plenty of times by private companies.

It helps a bit but as others have said, disgruntled employees can screw things up. I was in Asia in the 90s when the Hong Kong stock exchange failed to open one Monday after an IT chappie, disgruntled his boss would only give him a one week holiday rather than the two he requested, pottered around one weekend planting electronic time bombs in major players' computers.

They all went off at 0900 local on the Monday, he had fled to China and that was that. :eek:

Pelikal
29th Oct 2013, 21:38
BenThere, thank you. Best I can do is:

I think this affair is absolutely fascinating.
:ooh:

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 21:51
BenThere, thank you.

No, thank you.


Wings,

The whole world is just moving into the cyber age and we haven't yet figured out all the angles of it. That's why we're open to attacks. We're still learning the vulnerabilities of our rapidly advancing cyber age.

That's not political.

Lonewolf_50
29th Oct 2013, 22:11
wings, just because a pack of gum is not under lock in the store, but on the shelf, does not mean that I should not prosecute a shop lifter if one decides he wants to try to get away with stealing said pack of gum. Or camera. Or iPod. Or pint of whiskey.

So, this little lad thought he could wander in and steal something that wasn't his. He's getting what he deserved: the store manager and the cops on his back.

It really is that simple. Your spin doesn't change that. You have been well answered multiple times. Please stop sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "lalalalalala" on this matter.

Am I happy that the store isn't as secure as I'd like it to be, being a shareholder in the company?
Hell no.

Most Americans with a clue about info security aren't happy either.

As Ben has alluded to, a great many of our public servants and political leadership are willfully ignorant of both opsec and infosec. I refer not just the current crowd, but going back to about Jimmy Carter. (He's the moron who blew Stealth's covered program).

**** me, Rummy was as bad as some others in terms of not knowing when to keep his ******* mouth shut.

Such incompetence trickles down to the practical level.

Seldomfitforpurpose
29th Oct 2013, 22:18
Am I happy that the store isn't as secure as I'd like it to be, being a shareholder in the company?
Hell no.


So why not, as others suggested change the usual instantaneous response of 'arrest that man' to 'care to show us where we keep ******* up' :ok:

Lonewolf_50
29th Oct 2013, 22:24
Your zero defects approach to the world is not fit for purpose. Please do keep up, SFFP.

Also, it isn't an either / or. You arrest twits like that for a number of reasons, one being to put a question in the mind of the next feckwit as to whether or not it's worth trying the same.

You ALSO get your people to address the technical issues at hand. That is, as ever, an ongoing process. As I stated before, it is not uncommon that the day to day users leave holes open. Your zero defects demand on that is also not fit for purpose.

I am stunned at the level of demonstrated ignorance on info security in this thread. Maybe you foreigners are willfully ignorant. It isn't that hard to learn the basics.

Airborne Aircrew
29th Oct 2013, 22:33
As someone who has spent a fair amount of time and effort learning about and implementing Information Security, Intrusion Detection, Incident Response and all those other little things that happen in the IT world I think I'm qualified to comment...

The first problem is that the US, (and most other governments), utterly fail to understand the concept of an "Air Wall"...

No contact to the world = No contact from the world.

Far too many systems that shouldn't be are connected to "the world"...

And then there's Snowdon...

That's procedural, physical and ooops...

Seldomfitforpurpose
29th Oct 2013, 22:46
Also, it isn't an either / or. You arrest twits like that for a number of reasons, one being to put a question in the mind of the next feckwit as to whether or not it's worth trying the same.


Meanwhile you continue to employ highly paid 'specialists' who make it oh so easy for the next 'feckwit', cant you just taste the huge dollop of irony there, instead of seeking the advice of the simple 'feckwit' who is running rings round your hired help :ok:

You sure you are keeping up chap :p

Airborne Aircrew
29th Oct 2013, 22:53
SFFP:

I almost got fired a few years ago for fronting up to a local poli who was spending money on an unsecure, stupid system.. The poli went after me through my boss rather than through my ideas/knowledge.

I have always said, and always will say, that polis have absolutely no place in the IT world. They are misinformed, knee jerk idiots advised by people who can be great bureaucrats but have no clue about the realities of IT....

Seldomfitforpurpose
29th Oct 2013, 23:02
SFFP:

I almost got fired a few years ago for fronting up to a local poli who was spending money on an unsecure, stupid system.. The poli went after me through my boss rather than through my ideas/knowledge.

I have always said, and always will say, that polis have absolutely no place in the IT world. They are misinformed, knee jerk idiots advised by people who can be great bureaucrats but have no clue about the realities of IT....

Absolutely could not agree more hence my suggestion that an ounce of help must be eminently more helpful than a pound of flesh, which the heads of sheds and other less informed folk always seem to prefer :ok:

fitliker
30th Oct 2013, 03:50
Barbicans in old castles slowed down intruders so they could be killed or captured.
I would doubt that any modern military computer would not employ a similar electronic construction to defend itself.
That said I stood next to a very important computer in a lead lined room once, having never signed the official secrets act I could tell you all about it if I was feeling stupid.
Be right back there is a knock at the door......

Nervous SLF
30th Oct 2013, 04:54
Prime Minister John Key says he's confident the United States didn't spy on New Zealand, but he won't say why.

So should NZ be pleased that the U.S. trusts us enough not to :ok:? OR should little NZ be insulted that we weren't.:{

500N
30th Oct 2013, 04:59
"OR should little NZ be insulted that we weren't."

That one.

Since you took the anti Nuclear stance, you have nothing to offer the US,
tactically, strategically or politically :O

Nervous SLF
30th Oct 2013, 05:05
I wasn't a NZer when they went anti-nuke but as time has gone on I am pleased they did as I am very distrustful of nuclear
power stations. However NZ does have a U.S. spy ground station on the South Island and as I am very sceptical of most politicians
I am not convinced by our P.M. Have to say that our local chap in Parliament seems a good sort.

Oh yes and I am NOT a greenie - they really annoy me most of the time.

500N
30th Oct 2013, 05:12
Nervous

I was having a bit of a joke.

Re "anti Nuclear", it wasn't Nuclear Power stations that it was about
but allowing US Warships to visit NZ because the US Gov't would not
confirm or deny they had Nuclear weapons on board.

End result, the ships visit Aus instead :ok:


Be Green, Fertilise the earth, bury a Greenie, preferably alive :ok:

Nervous SLF
30th Oct 2013, 05:24
I thought you were but some on JB might not have done - no names etc. :ok:

As for not letting warships visit - never did understand that bit seems rather silly to me.

500N
30th Oct 2013, 05:30
Yes, re warships, I agree but that is what happens when greenies take over.
The NZ economy could have done with a few visits !

I must admit, we have cities here in Aus that fight for the chance of a visit by a US Warship. The boost over two days of a visit is huge.

Anyway, if that is the way NZ wants to play it, so be it.

Lonewolf_50
30th Oct 2013, 12:58
Meanwhile you continue to employ highly paid 'specialists' who make it oh so easy for the next 'feckwit', cant you just taste the huge dollop of irony there, instead of seeking the advice of the simple 'feckwit' who is running rings round your hired help :ok:
You are free to keep talking out of your backside. It's what you're good at. :ok:

pigboat
30th Oct 2013, 15:42
Prime Minister John Key says he's confident the United States didn't spy on New Zealand, but he won't say why.

Because the US, Canada, Oz, NZ and Britain - the Anglosphere - have agreed not to poke around in each others affairs. Allegedly. :p

500N
30th Oct 2013, 15:48
Well, when you have the listening / spy bases in those countries it kind of defeats the purpose !!!

Not sure about the other countries but Pine Gap in Oz is a joint facility.

wings folded
30th Oct 2013, 16:16
wings, just because a pack of gum is not under lock in the store, but on the shelf, does not mean that I should not prosecute a shop lifter if one decides he wants to try to get away with stealing said pack of gum. Or camera. Or iPod. Or pint of whiskey.


Theft is generally forbidden in most countries. Explain to me what laws in the US condone or permit espionage on heads of state of other countries.

So, this little lad thought he could wander in and steal something that wasn't his. He's getting what he deserved: the store manager and the cops on his back.
So is that being applied to the little lad who set up surveillance of non Americans? Heads of state no less?


It really is that simple. Your spin doesn't change that. You have been well answered multiple times. Please stop sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "lalalalalala" on this matter.


No, I have not had an answer why America can flout laws with impunity but gets all in a strop if others do the same in return.

I await with great patience.

airship
30th Oct 2013, 16:18
Presumably the NSA have hitherto intercepted all important communications on the subject. I'm unsure if it's usual NSA policy, but I imagine that all the "US companies or individuals" involved would have been advised by "someone" concerning "how best to proceed"...?!

Especially considering how even Snowden was just "1 out of several 100,000s" of US citizens with important access to secret documents, working for just a sub-contractor, let alone directly for the US government...?!

The EU several years ago allowed the USA access to the "SWIFT" network (but for "anti-terrorist" activities only). But ingratiously used since for all other purposes including identifying US citizens and their banking assets held outside of the USA over the years...?! No, of course not, there are no visible connections between the NSA (and their 100,000+ agents in private companies), the US Inland Revenue etc... :rolleyes:

The USA can keep treating her true allies like shite for all I could care. Until the cows come home. And reap the consequences. (Your lazy bureaucrats, "billion US$ spy agencies etc. preferring to listen-in to the mobile phones of the leaders of countries and your best allies, instead of doing more in their 9-5 jobs...).

Or she could change...?! :ugh:

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 16:39
Airborne wrote:

As someone who has spent a fair amount of time and effort learning about and implementing Information Security, Intrusion Detection, Incident Response and all those other little things that happen in the IT world I think I'm qualified to comment...

And I as well. We I do know is this: given enough time and resources a focused individual will be able to defeat the security protections on any system anywhere. There are exceptions to that but most any system can be compromised.

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 16:41
Nervous wrote:

So should NZ be pleased that the U.S. trusts us enough not to http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif? OR should little NZ be insulted that we weren't.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

Not too worry. I'm sure NZ is next on the list. Your turn is coming! :}:}:}

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 16:43
500N wrote

I must admit, we have cities here in Aus that fight for the chance of a visit by a US Warship. The boost over two days of a visit is huge.

As is the boost of local pregnancies, no doubt. :*

Dushan
30th Oct 2013, 16:46
Airborne wrote:



And I as well. We I do know is this: given enough time and resources a focused individual will be able to defeat the security protections on any system anywhere. There are exceptions to that but most any system can be compromised.

Compromise this...:E

http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/TypewriterRem1924.jpg

500N
30th Oct 2013, 16:49
Dushan

Something even better than that.

A pencil, it even works in the rain and underwater :O

Dushan
30th Oct 2013, 16:54
Yes, and even in zero gravity environment (space station...)

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 16:58
A typewriter can be compromised as well Dushan.

Just take the ribbon out after use and have at it!!!! (An inherent carbon-copy!)

500N
30th Oct 2013, 16:58
Good Point, never had to try that one.

con-pilot
30th Oct 2013, 17:17
A typewriter can be compromised as well Dushan.

Just take the ribbon out after use and have at it!!!! (An inherent carbon-copy!)

Oh I knew that, t'was part of my junior G-man test. :p


It is supposed to be burned, or something like that.

lomapaseo
30th Oct 2013, 17:20
Just take the ribbon out after use and have at it!!!! (An inherent carbon-copy!)

isn't that like the overwrite on a CVR tape, you have to overlay the suspected two or more results and pick out the one you want. Once they get re-written more than once at the same point lots-of-luck

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 17:42
loma:

Yup. And the same is true for hard drives as well. Unless you implicitly zero out the storage space used by, for example, a file and it isn't overwritten by some new file well, it's still there. It may well have been "deleted" but it certainly still lives!

Lonewolf_50
30th Oct 2013, 17:56
Theft is generally forbidden in most countries. Explain to me what laws in the US condone or permit espionage on heads of state of other countries.
I was referring to the little lad for whom you have such empathy. Suggest you re-read my point about real life not being a tennis match, on the "government to government" level. Realpolitik.
No, I have not had an answer why America can flout laws with impunity but gets all in a strop if others do the same in return.
What laws are you referring to? Are you reffering to a law agianst spying? IF so, every nations violates that. Hence, that law is a farce, if it exists at the extranational level.
I await with great patience.
Good luck with that. At the nation to nation level, see my notes on "not a tennis match."

As to style points: next time, suggest you not engage in bait and switch.

Lonewolf_50
30th Oct 2013, 18:00
Presumably the NSA have hitherto intercepted all important communications on the subject.
Maybe, maybe not. They are not omniscient.
the US Inland Revenue etc... :rolleyes:
The Internal Revenue Service on this side of the pond. Likely the same function.
The USA can keep treating her true allies like shite for all I could care.
Nations have interests. Friends are harder to come by. It saddens me, but that's how it works, no matter what illusions one wishes to use as whitewash.

What true allies are you referring to, by the way? Are you referring to the ones who collect on us within our own alliance, and have for years?

Please share. Do these true allies put raisins in their porridge?

radeng
30th Oct 2013, 18:02
rgb

I suspect there aren't that many pregnancies after US warship visits to certain Australian cities, merely because the legal brothels take precautions and as far business goes, doubtless do very well indeed out of the visit!

I believe NZ offers the same attractions for visiting sailors......

West Coast
30th Oct 2013, 18:09
Such visits require calculating a PCOD to allow for a happy reunion with the missus upon return to home port.

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 18:10
PCOD, West Coast? Must be a Marine/Naval thing. :}

West Coast
30th Oct 2013, 18:13
Indeed RG, if one attempted to truly enjoy all that foreign lands had to offer.

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 18:19
Well I too truly enjoyed quite a few foreign lands and the best of what they had on offer! However, I don't ever recall bringing a PCOD with me. Is it some sort of inoculation? :ok:

West Coast
30th Oct 2013, 18:32
Urban Dictionary: pcod (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pcod)

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 18:35
Thanks for clarifying WC, all makes sense now.

See we Army type never had a PCOD as it was perpetually available to us: a finer class of warrior. :E:}:ok:

West Coast
30th Oct 2013, 19:09
Wrestling in the barracks with other sweaty soldiers ain't my idea of a step up.

rgbrock1
30th Oct 2013, 19:15
Um WC? The saying about not bending over for the soap in the shower originated with the parent organization of the US Marines, the US Navy, and had f**k all to do with the Army! :}:}:}

500N
30th Oct 2013, 20:15
RGB

See, if you aren't fighting over pussy, you are fighting over a/holes :O


"See we Army type never had a PCOD as it was perpetually
available to us: a finer class of warrior."

LOL :D:D:D

Lonewolf_50
30th Oct 2013, 20:25
Over hill, over dail, we will hit your dusty trail
RG, we know what you Army guys were doing. You sang about it ... and I suspect lacked the courtesy of a reach around. :p

500N
30th Oct 2013, 20:28
Lone

Artillery weren't called "drop shorts" for just one reason :O

Airborne Aircrew
30th Oct 2013, 20:53
RGB:

The saying about not bending over for the soap in the shower originated with the parent organization of the US Marines, the US Navy,

Sorry mate but the Royal Navy had a boy in every port hundreds of years before the USN discovered handbags and high heels...

VP959
30th Oct 2013, 21:39
Sorry mate but the Royal Navy had a boy in every port hundreds of years before the USN discovered handbags and high heels...

Not to mention every RN ship having the mythical Golden Rivet.

7x7
30th Oct 2013, 21:54
I understood that there was an official meaning to the PCOD acronym (Personnel Coming Off "Dooty"), while to everyone, it's real meaning was Pussy Cut Off Date. However, as I recall, in my day, it didn't end there. Closer to the day you went home, there was APCOD (A for Absolute) RAPCOD (RA - Really Absolute) then UPCOD (U for Ultimate). There were at least three more variations which I forget, but the last one (ALUPCOD - Absolutely the Last and Ultimate PCOD) was for just before the Yank stepped on the Freedom Bird back to the States - this was for the ones who couldn't resist one last knee-trembler with a Vietnamese hooker up against the back wheel of the bus waiting outside the departures hall.

I met a USAF doctor in my travels during those Vietnam War era days. He worked at the base on the west coast where most of the aircraft coming in from Vietnam first landed, and he said an endless string of airmen, some with really exotic STDs, who came to him saying "Doc, you gotta help me, I'm meeting the wife in the morning. You gotta cure this before I get home."

It might be an urban legend, but we all "knew" about a US military hospital somewhere in the Philippines where the terminal VD cases were sent to die. There might be someone out there who could tell whether that was true or just an urban legend.

Lonewolf_50
31st Oct 2013, 15:10
It might be an urban legend
Curious: why would you believe it to be other than that?

airship
31st Oct 2013, 19:24
Ca. 2013, the USA / NSA / GCHQ etc. rulez = ca. 1960-80s, when the USSR / KGB / East German Stasi etc. did same, 'nuff said...:rolleyes::sad:

7x7
31st Oct 2013, 21:08
Curious: why would you believe it to be other than that?Lone Wolf, it was because in bar chat (that repository of all wisdom and knowledge in the military - or the Australian military at least) there was mention of some of the more exotic strains of STDs you could catch in and around SVN were very, very exotic indeed. The USAF doctor I mentioned told me that some of the cases he saw were almost beyond description. (You'll notice I said "almost" - the descriptions he did give gave me a very bad case of brewer's droop.)

Airborne Aircrew
31st Oct 2013, 21:10
7x7

Then you were drunk you fool... and I'm hoping the doc was a lass... :}

Lonewolf_50
31st Oct 2013, 21:17
7 X 7:

I recall legends back in the 80's and 90's, of strains of VD that ate most antibiotics for breakfast, lunch and dinner and then yelled for more. Such strains of drippydick seemed to be on the increase in the West Pac ports our sailors liked the most -- Subic and Phuket -- so we took extra effort to get people to wrap the sausage while on liberty. Mixed results, of course, as there were always a few with drippydick once liberty was over.

The sailors might rather have died, as their symptoms got worse, but I am pretty sure the deliberate abandoning of similarly afflicted sailors and airmen into "die in place" hospices would have attracted more than a little notice. ;)

There is a lot of paperwork when you return from deployment without one of the folks you left port with. :=

7x7
31st Oct 2013, 21:22
Airborne Aircrew, I've deleted what I wrote at first in reply to your post.

I think there'd be quite a few others who'd have a pretty good idea of what it said - and I suspect there'd be quite a few who'd agree with my sentiments.

Airborne Aircrew
31st Oct 2013, 21:26
7x7:

So the doc was a man?

Each to their own... :ok:

7x7
31st Oct 2013, 21:29
Lone Wolf, (perhaps evidence that I was as drunk as Airborne Aircrew says I must have been), but in the bar tales about the (mythical?) military hospice in the Philippines, those sent there were said to have been listed as "KIA", which was the cause of no small amount of mirth to those gathered at the bar at the time, as it wasn't drawing too long a bow to say that they had indeed incurred their terminal 'wound' whilst "in action".

I'm standing by for some unapproving reply from Airborne Aircrew.

Lonewolf_50
31st Oct 2013, 21:35
Aha, so that's where it got reported.

The casualty lists included those killed by that most dreaded of creatures, the Frumious Bandersnatch! :E

We now get to the real reason for Agent Orange: Killing off those tumtum trees, which is where the bandersnatch raise its young! Damned fool of an AF doctor, let the cat out of the bag, eh? :uhoh::eek::sad:



"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought
-- So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

Airborne Aircrew
31st Oct 2013, 21:38
7x7

I was having a bit of a joke but let's be a bit sensible for a second...

A stoker gets aboard ship in the US, travels to the far east in the time period. His ship maybe fires a couple of rounds as documented by his handwritten letters home... All of a sudden he turns up KIA... Let's go one step further, his mates get home and find out he's listed KIA when they know he was in Dirty Gertie's and shipped off "sick"... How long could the "secret be kept"...

Too many people involved to keep the secret...

Lonewolf_50
31st Oct 2013, 21:40
AA, if it's all the same to you, I like my answer better. :}
It involves brillig, after all. :cool:

Airborne Aircrew
31st Oct 2013, 21:41
I didn't see it until you mentioned it...

You make a great point... :D:D:D

7x7
31st Oct 2013, 22:00
AA, I think the object of these tales was to scare the bejeezus out of us and to ensure that no matter how drunk we got, we all wore a raincoat if we were ever tempted to exchange bodily fluids with any of the comely lasses we were likely to encounter in any of the bars we frequented.

I can only say it worked for me - particularly after my first trip to Bugis Street, when I discovered that the best looking hookers I'd ever seen in my life were sporting 'block and tackle' under those clinging dresses.

radeng
31st Oct 2013, 22:00
Is it not true that in North Africa in 1943, more GI's were 'hors de combat' from VD than enemy action?

Matari
31st Oct 2013, 22:15
Could be, radeng. A fellow I worked with in Africa traveled the world over making it a point to shag anything and everything that walked. Somehow managed to avoid all drips till he caught the clap from a nurse in London.

radeng
31st Oct 2013, 22:20
A guy I worked with - real big black guy salesman in Chicago - had been an MP in Korea and said he got a wicked dose there from a Korean girl. Every after used a mackintosh!

Sadly, lost contact with him.