Two Helos Collide in New Zealand

[KiwiNedNZ]

News report saying two helos came together at the Tindall Glacier this afternoon near the Shotover River. Report said pax and one pilot flown back to base and one pilot transferred to hospital with injuries.

Apparently one was landing at the time and hit the other.

[NRDK]

Chopper crashes in Mt Aspiring National Park (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11147641)

:ugh:

[boogar]

The "fisty cuffs at dawn" should be saved for people that make negative comments on PPrune and show no respect in these circumstances. There seems to be a lot of people who like to think they know what happened when accidents like this occur. Both pilots are very experienced in Mountain flying in the Southern Alps. I'm going to wait till I talk to the guys and see the accident report before I make judgement.

[[email protected]]

Whilst you are right in that we shouldn't pre-judge, I will be interested to see what explanation there is for two helicopters from the same company taking chunks out of each other unless there is a clear technical failure as the cause.

[Arrrj]

Having flown there, and been flown there by some well known locals...I would say that this may be "an accident"...where someone has made a "mistake".

Sorry to be flippant, but that does happen, even with the best machines, pilots and company's involved.

I hope everyone is OK.

Arrrj

[NRDK]

If one of them is sporting a black eye and missing his Stetson after you talk to them, let us know.:}

[SuperF]

Not the first time for it to happen, and I can't see it being the last either. It's not like landing at an airfield up there.

I think Marine have the dubious title of taking out three in one go!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

NRDK - sorry mate but you are a prize prick!!

People are injured and proffessional pilots do not post unsympathetic drivel like you have done. If you cannot post sensibly sod off and Troll somewhere else.

DB

[NRDK]

You seem to take it personally whenever someone here posts any remark against either the wonderful establishment or another skygod like yourself. With your 17.000+ hours perhaps you should re-read a few of your own comments you may have hurt some sensitive soul with your previous comments:ok:.

This is a rumour network, plenty of banter.:D lots of wind ups, can't take a joke....should have joined the Army!:=

Seriously though. Standing on the ice glacier with your paying pax and have your oppo turn up and then land on you! Having survived what may have been an absolute tragedy, tell me honestly you wouldn't be a little pi#€ed off with that 'professional' colleague. Yes sh1t happens, but I doubt I'm alone in thinking this was so unavoidable.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

NRDK Having spent the better part of my life in aviation I can agree with you that all accidents are avoidable. However they continue to happen. The difference between you and me is....my first thought is..."that could happen to me" and then I want details so I can try to make sure it does not.

You suggest that I consider myself as a "Skygod"

Actually your statements on this thread infer that it is you who considers yourself as a Skygod because clearly this would never happen to you which in turn allows you to be inappropriately critical of those unfortunate to have had this accident.

However, what makes you a "Prick" is that you level this criticism with absolutley no factual detail of what occurred.....other than the event happened.

Time and experience serve only to teach us how fallible we all are. How easily these things can happen. To any of us. Maybe you do not have the benefit of experience to draw on!!! In which case keep quite until some facts emerge.

Ooh! For the record.....I did join the Army!!

[NRDK]

Yes, the army joke was a double tap at you, as I know your background.

I would hope already that you have learnt enough of the basics to have prevented this cockup!:ugh:

Day VMC, Operating with another of your company aircraft to the same area, (to an area used frequently by all accounts). R/T position reports? A basic landing site recce using the mark 1 eyeball before committing to fly into your oppo's aircraft (having planned an approach routing that gave a safe under/overshoot)
Alway lessons to be learnt from every incident, accident in life. Complacency being a good one.

[cattletruck]

I would say that this may be "an accident"...where someone has made a "mistake".

So true. Ever had someone unexpectedly pull up in front of you on short finals? Happens quite a lot, I had the fuel truck do that to me once :eek:. Crossed every finger and every toe, even recited a prayer in every religion I knew for the donk not to quit on me as I sailed over it by just a few feet.

Glad there were no fatalities and hope they recover soon enough to get back in the saddle.

[boogar]

Well said DB

The two pilots involved are not only very experienced in mountain flying but they are also good mates of mine and well respected in the industry. One of them has serious injuries and is in hospital although the news I got this morning is he should make a full recovery.

NRDK I gave your dribble the benefit of the doubt last night and I appreciate this site is a "rumor network" but people could have died including my mates and there is no reason ever, for you or anyone, to post offensive, unprofessional posts and be an insensitive ********.

[Hughesy]

In conditions you find on a glacier with its flat light and blowing snow reference can well be an issue.
Its a common technique to use the biggest thing on the snow to provide a reference...thats another helicopter.
I spent years flying around NZ's amazing glaciers. And that was what I, and other pilots used. So landing close was accepted and was generally much safer then trying to land in a area with no reference. I know of many helicopters that have rolled over due to lack of reference. There was a 500 that opted to land in no mans land ( there was two helicopters providing great reference on the normal landing site) and he ended up drifting, catching a skid and rolling over. Luckily no major injuries to passengers. (not sure "that girls" undies were that lucky :E:E :ok:)

Sometimes, it can be bloody tricky. Some days you dont land.

I AM NOT SPECULATING on the cause, I am just saying landing near each other is common as it aids safety in the landing.
By the way, this is the first accident/incident I have heard off on the glaciers in the 30 year history of this company (and others) involving a machine touching the other considering the number of flights going on.

Just glad to hear the pilot will make a recovery.
To the Company pilots, Chin up and keep it safe.

[KiwiNedNZ]

The pilots of this company are some of the best, the bosses above them like GB ensure it is so.

Pilot was transferred to Lakes District Hospital and then over to Dunedin. Fingers crossed he makes a full recovery. The area around Queenstown and Wanaka has some unforgiving mountains and many a pilot has come close to meeting their maker in them.

THL flies many thousands of hours per year, I think about 18 helos flying around 450 hours per year per machine which certainly adds up and this is the first major I have ever heard them have apart from one up near Fox/Franz a while ago.

Thoughts are with everyone at THL and the pilots family.

[Thomas coupling]

Fisticuffs already it seems.

For those of you new to PPrune who want us armchair judges to wait until the results are out: Too late mate, that's been thrashed to death here on the RUMOUR NETWORK:ugh::ugh: If you don't like that idea: F.O.
For the rest of you egotists, the bottom line is that two a/c came together in the same space at the same time: COCK UP. Simples. One of them made a mistake. Human error. Can it be avoided: of course it can. It needs constant SA, airmanship and common sense. This happened on the ground remember so presumably ONE of the targets wasn't moving??? The other one waas driven (in this instance) by a PRAT. Simples. Apologise and get over it. No-one dead:D

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

TC as usual your post is simply designed to offend as many people as possible. I am not surprised at all that you choose to vomit up your diatribe on a post where it serves only to create misery.

DB

[rottenjohn]

Thomas Coupling is right,move on,some of these NZ pruners must never sleep with their amazing flying feats day and night then all the advice they pass on to us mere mortals via these forums

[Thomas coupling]

Rottenjohn: :D:D:D

DB: Don't know you, don't really.....want to either but, needs must!
NZ pilots need to understand this is a 'normal' risk. Two pilots flying in the same airspace, one of them makes a mistake and hits the other.
Smell the coffe brothers: kiwi's are human like the rest of us and YOU MAKE MISTAKES - learn from it and move on.
Just re-train the guy who did it and if you can't - sack him. Simples :}
Remember - accidents are a minority event done by a minority of pilots. Find a majority pilot or address his inadequacies because inadequacies they are. :rolleyes:
DB: You are allowed to dismount from your high horse occasionally, you know? :ok:

[NRDK]

What a breath of fresh air your posting has added, thanks.

DB...if I'm ever parked up and you land on my cab and we survive, best you stand by for some whoop ass:ouch: To quote a wise one...simples!

[[email protected]]

Is this glacier gig the same sort of thing as the deer hunting? Demanding flying sure enough but for what reason? To save lives? to win a war? Oh no it's about making money!

So we have to have sympathy when guys take operating conditions to (and clearly beyond in this case) the limits and, despite their 'god-like' skills, f**k up and are lucky not to kill everyone on board - and all in the name of making a few bucks from some tourists!

Sorry but I am with TC on this one. Seems like NZ aviation needs a dose of perspective.

[mary meagher]

Come on children, stop squabbling.

Knowing absolutely nothing about flying helos, but something similar can happen with gliders; if there is a stationary object in the middle of an otherwise undifferentiated field, more than once the object has a magnetic affect on the landing aircraft. Takes special care to miss the bus/vehicle/stationary glider, especially if otherwise distracted.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Amazing how a simple post about an accident in NZ has revealed so much distaste for helo ops in NZ.

Is this glacier gig the same sort of thing as the deer hunting? Demanding flying sure enough but for what reason? To save lives? to win a war? Oh no it's about making money!

So we have to have sympathy when guys take operating conditions to (and clearly beyond in this case) the limits and, despite their 'god-like' skills, f**k up and are lucky not to kill everyone on board - and all in the name of making a few bucks from some tourists!

Sorry but I am with TC on this one. Seems like NZ aviation needs a dose of perspective.

So Crab based on your comment quoted above does that mean we also shouldnt give a **** about your UK colleague who flew into the crane in downtown London. Wasnt he just making a few bucks from punters. Sounds like the UK helo industry needs to take a dose of perspective if you care to apply your comments back to your own industry.

Sad that this place used to be a place where professionals would act like adults instead now when a fellow aviator has an accident and is in hospital with serious head injuries all you can do is attack him, the Kiwi industry etc.

[[email protected]]

No, both stories are the same - professionals taking the risks one stage too far.

I appreciate it is a mate of yours but he is not in hospital because of anyone else's fault.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Crab - Good to see that the same rules apply both sides of the equator.

While I had met the pilot in question a couple of times he wasnt a friend as such and yes the actions were his alone.

Hope they find out what happened and take whatever actions are needed.

[SilsoeSid]

DBHaving spent the better part of my life in aviation I can agree with you that all accidents are avoidable.

IMHO, not 'all' accidents are avoidable. Bird strikes for example :eek:

"Accidents do happen, but most accidents are not really accidents. The guilty (negligent) party simply refuses to accept responsibility for negligence."
Are accidents avoidable or unavoidable by definition? (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=64286)

[Hedski]

Perspective is good. Hopefully lessons can be learned, this time without loss of life unlike the BundesPolizei accident in Germany a while back. Some comments may come across a little cutting and severe, emotion is difficult to convey by written word. Texting a nightmare ex girlfriend comes to mind, she always misinterpreted my iMessages. However the NZ heli industry is a very proud one, goes with the territory. Kiwi's are proud of everything and don't like criticism much, one of my best mates is a JAFA and thinks most things in life were invented in NZ and won't accept otherwise. What I've seen of the heli industry there wouldn't fill me with confidence much. Youtube videos don't help I'm afraid but lets wait and see what the report says, whiteout may have been possible. And yes, the individual referred to recently deceased in UK was at fault, but that doesn't mean everybody in the same country's industry is to be tarred with the same brush and therefore cannot criticise either....

Thoughts for balance.

[satsuma]

TC

You're really not a very nice man.

[nomorehelosforme]

TC you seemed to have rocked the ship on this one! Shall sit back and watch with interest!

Crab, is this still banter?

[helicopterinterested]

Its very interesting to read the comments here. I see a lot of people seem eager to comment before any thought to what the details are or any investigation on the incident.
Firstly the news if anyone cared to read it would of clarified that it was a tour operation and not anything to do with deer recovery.
Secondly: The operator has the best per flight hour record in NZ for helicopters.

Now I dont really have much time for England either, So fairs fairs for the UK people saying bad things about NZ.. You wouldnt know a mountain if it kicked you in the ass if you are wondering why anyone would tip up on one. It happens all the time all over the world because the flying is high alt and weather conditions are challenging.

Both pilots are very experienced and like all pilots have the ability to make mistakes or not be able to control the situation enough to see all the possible out comes of each decision.

I dont believe the critics here deserve an explanation due to the utter poor intelligence they have shown in their comments.

I dont really care if the pilot or any pilot has made a mistake, As a pilot I know my turn is either about to come or I have already had it many times before now or soon after now.

My thoughts and prays are with the family and Pilot primarily while we hope he is able to make it out of his current condition alive.

My second efforts are to recover the situation and keep a positive way forward from any of the accidents any helicopters are involved in period.

And finally NZ like all countries has good and bad operators, Some are some of the best in the world and some are the worst. NZ has a passion for flying like no country I have been to for the number of people.
This company that had the crash, These pilots that were involved in the incident are some of the best I know world wide. Both strive every day for excellence and achieve it a large part of the time, Both were doing their best on the day when the situation didnt go to plan and one helicopter due to wind has ended in a situation where it drifted too close to the other helicopter in white landscape conditions with minimal reference(for those people who know snow landings).
There is no doubt a mistake has been made, But this is not one of absolute stupidity or arrogance, It was just a bad day where the odds court up with them and the thousands of snow landings they do each year to provide a perfect storm resulting in an accident.

People who fly, I hope you remember. Dont throw stones if you live in glass houses. Your day is coming I am absolutely assured of it, And the more you pass judgement and try make out these two pilots to be stupid, The more assured I am that your day is even sooner than you think.

Cheers to all those who have something positive to say and have genuine interest in the well being of the people involved and how they can learn from it.

[djk59]

Couldnt agree more with helicopterinterested.

The Southern Alps on NZ are a very challenging enviroment indeed. Helicopters commonly operating at 4000 to 12,000 feet. Fresh snow, Glacier landings, high swirling winds ect. To my knowledge this company has been operating since the early 1980's with a fleet of some 20 helicopters and have a remarkable safety record and some of the best mountain pilots in the business. These armchair idots who feel they should share their expertise on exactly what happened and why just astound me to no end. I have spent most of my 34 year career in the mountains in Europe, Canada, Central Asia, South America and others and I know one thing for sure, it is a very unforgiving enviroment. Add snow, ice and high alpine winds to the mix, well its a hard day at the office thats for sure.

The very fact that one pilot can slag off another in these circumstances from across the other side of the world (whom they don't even know and adding the fact they have absolutely no clue as to what happened or why) is to my mind sinking to such low levels I feel this industry is becoming a lot like little old ladies gossiping at the corner store. These armchair warrior pilots have problay never even flown in 5,000 to 12,000 foot mountains like this company does every single day for the last 25 odd years. We have all had close calls in our time, every one of us, which could easily have gone either way

To all you armchair experts please stop being idiots, you really are bringing this industry to low levels. IMO We should be here to support each other. And no I do not fly in NZ (yet) but have been there and went on a heli few flights in the South Island and what a wonderful place it must be to fly in for a living. .

I will sit down to my scotch and now reflect on todays industry with some deep dissapoinment and ponder what my late father once told me. " Son opinions are like assholes, every one has got one, but an informed opinion based on fact, now thats gold".

The pilot as I undertsand is very seriously injured in a coma, my thoughts and best wishes go to him and his family. Because I for one very much care about what happens to a fellow heli pilot.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

DJK and helicopters interested!

As a British helicopter pilot I apologise for the idiotic, insensitive posts by my fellow countrymen. It has astounded me how arrogant these individuals appear to be. Please do not be believe we are all this ignorant and rude in UK and Europe.

I hope the pilot, and in some cases, your friend, makes a good recovery.

DB

[Hilife]

Oh really DB.

Goodwill (in all cases) aside, just who nominated you to act as spokesman on behalf of your fellow countryman?

Clearly your viewpoint is from one who is already aware of the exact causes of said collision, just 48-hours’ after the event, yes?

[SARWannabe]

As always we Brits are a little too quick to point out how people are not doing things 'right', (helicopterinterested, you don't need a capital letter after a comma... :ok:), and because we don't experience much in the way of genuine limited power, mountain illusions/weather, white-out, blowing snow, aerial utility work, or aerial tourism, we are quick to forget what helicopters are actually used for in more interesting parts of the world, and how they are operated! Take for example the debate on the Norweigan helicopter doing a hover exit (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/513896-norwegian-air-ambulance-nice-balancing-act.html), a helicopter being used...... as a helicopter.

We're quite good at offshore 'Performance Class 1' operations over here (well sometimes), and thats the level of safety and redundancy that we know and come to expect, you cannot wipe your a$$ unless you have a spare piece of tissue prepped and waiting, just incase. We're not very good at understanding that elsewhere in the world people fly around in the 'avoid' curve all day long, people use a single engine over cities, even to sling people off mountains (Class D load), and the general accepted risk is 'different', although still calculated.

These guys made a mistake (as ours did not so long ago causing the big fuss oop north) it will happen sooner or later, I hope they make a full recovery and get back to what they are very good at :ok:

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Hi life - you missed the point. It is precisely because we do not know the cause that makes insensitive judgemental posts totally inappropriate.

I have no idea what caused this. No real mountain experience and very little in snow. I just want to show a little solidity with a fellow pilot who is badly injured.

DB

[Thomas coupling]

Look guys, let's try NOT to be subjective or emotional here, eh? This is NOT a kiwi bashing exercise. Everyone knows you guys are at least as good as us:eek:
The issue here is this:

A helicopter pilot (irrespective of his/her talents) made a mistake and could have wiped everyone out in the blink of the eye. Now in this PARTICULAR circumstance (for those hard of hearing I am talking only of this situation - OK?) pilot A appears to have hit pilot B (who was stationary). It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with hot/high/whiteout/glaciers/phases of the moon. It is solely down to the prosecuting pilot COCKING up. Simples :ugh:
There are those amongst us (me included) who believe we could/would never make that same mistake during that type of approach because of the way we have conditioned our processes. SA, human factors, call it what you will. This particular manouevre did not require exceptional skills to successfully carry out. It required pilot A to fly his machine onto a designated spot and make sure that spot was clear. He didn't (for whatever reason) and consequently has injured himself and or others in so doing.
For that reason alone - the pilot could justifiably be described as derelict in his duty. The Insurance company will have a field day, his company will see a massive hike in their future premiums and the injured parties will probably sue his ass.
So, back to my original comments: Debrief him, retrain him and if he can't or won't then sack him. Simples.:=

[SARWannabe]

It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with hot/high/whiteout/glaciers/

It's in exactly these conditions that there is a higher risk associated with the landing, and this type of accident it's more likely to occur - conditions I assume you don't fly in regularly? Not often you land two helicopters on a rig together without an instrument approach in changeable vis, or your police helicopter on a snowy pinnacle next to another (where this is an accepted technique to maintain a reference point). These guys do it routinely, and it seems one got it a bit wrong (law of averages), thankfully without fatal consequences thus far. Just saying - no need to string him up for it, we all have the potential for mistakes and one would hope that we could show a little more consideration rather than throw stones.

[[email protected]]

Acceptable risk is what this incident is all about.

There are gifted helicopter pilots all over the globe with fantastic stick and rudder (or cyclic and collective) co-ordination. It is what you choose to do with those skills which is the great difference between various cultures and operations.

Part of that choice is what level of risk do you accept as the norm and where you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable risk; within that there has to be room for extenuating circumstances such as life-saving where a greater risk may be acceptable for a short period since the reward part of the risk/reward balance is greater, although even that has to have a cut-off point somewhere.

In NZ, the culture is clearly to accept a higher level of risk as the norm than would be the case in say the UK or parts of Europe. If the operators, regulators, insurers and customers are happy with those elevated levels of risk then fine, crack on but don't expect those from different cultures to sympathise when that elevated level of risk turns into an incident.

If an operator was to go to the UK CAA for an AOC to say they would like to land next to another helicopter in whiteout conditions on the top of a mountain and charge fare-paying customers for it, I suspect I know what the answer would be. In the Southern Hemisphere it is clearly different, not better or worse, whatever your viewpoint, just different.

Perhaps, in time, NZ will end up with the levels of regulation experienced in other parts of the world, in the meantime, don't be surprised when those of us from a more risk-conscious culture say 'WTF' when we see incidents like this occur.

Are Kiwis genetically better helo pilots that the rest of us? I doubt it. Do they have a higher level of acceptable risk in order to ply their trade? Clearly. Is it safe? That is a matter for conjecture and debate.

BTW night mountains in Snowdonia or the Glens in 50 to 70 kts of wind is equally challenging to the Southern Alps I would suggest, especially when you then have to put someone out on a wire to rescue someone. Just because it's not 5000 -12000 feet high doesn't mean it's not dangerous, scary and demanding.

[helicopterinterested]

Crab you are just the boring type of UK person we have to deal with moving to our country and then complaining about people jet boating, or music after 6, and in this case talking like a self imposed professor of aviation. I am glad your there and we are here. Yes we land on mountains, yes snow has reference issues. What does your boring attitude have to say about Canadians? Park up for winter. Your a very sad individual.

Ok. Let's clear this **** up now. As I was leasing the helicopter in question I know pretty much the details with in reason. It was a clear day. Lots if fresh snow. It was high. There was normal mountain wind enough that he took a second approach after not liking the first. The wind affected again his landing and possibly the fresh snow and drift affected his reference enough that he drifted over and tail came around with the small wind around and nicked the main rotor. The rest is easy to work out.
When your landing on mountains even though there seems to be lots of space you tend to stay in close proxy to the last landings as you know it's tested as a landing site.

Crab people come from all over the world to pay for tours into the mountains. And yes they want to take risks. Breathing is a risk. So where do we cut it off, I would say when you can show as this company has over decades of flying that the safe days far out number the unsafe ones. NZ is not for babies like you crab so stay in your Europe baby factory we Simply don't like people like you. Simples.

[Thomas coupling]

Helicopterinterested.

I think your advertised age and number of posts are the wrong way round.
Secondly, I think your first language isn't English is it?
Third (and this is a serious question) - are you a pilot?
Fourth - you are new here...very very new. Be extremely careful about throwing insults around and at people you have no idea about.
Example: I learned to mountain fly in the Rockies courtesy of the CAF.
I made my first ever landing, over 30yrs ago @ 12000' on a glacier. Within a year I was teaching military mountain flying. Crab is a very senior mil flying Instructor who has been flying longer than you have been alive.

Now - to get back to your witnessing of events. The pilot in question made two attempts at landing because he was unhappy about the first (clue number one). On his second approach he encountered mild white-out conditions but chose NOT to abort (clue number two). Instead he continued with the associated drift and loss of yaw control which you alluded to (clue number three}.
The swiss cheese holes all lined up and 'Voilà' (French for - behold!), He collided with the other parked helo.
Now for 'most' professional pilots reading this - it might raise the question: "why did he elect to consciously ignore any of the three warnings presented to him and press for home"?
And the logical answer is one of the following:
(a) Lack of SA.
(b) Lack of judgement.
(c) Poor Captaincy/airmanship.

For non aviators amongst us - the rules are the same here as they are for every other mode of transport: A moving vehicle collided with a stationary vehicle. You might therefore ask the question - was the driver of the moving vehicle derelict in his duty?

Helicopterinterested, you have to choose now - he's your pilot. Will you trust future fare paying passengers with this guy, will you retrain him, or will you sack him and hire an expert?

The choice is yours..............or is it the insurance company's?:eek:

[NRDK]

Agree with TC & Crab, hence my remarks albeit tongue in cheek. Mind you I have often blamed that stationary object of getting in my way and hitting me.....usually after a scotch like djk59 or is he Helicopterinterested in drag??:ok:

I'm sure I can speak for all normal people in wishing the injured a speedy full recovery.

[nomorehelosforme]

Helicopterinterested, you seem to have more flight experience than me in the industry, and seems quite patriotic, I'm a mere pax on various flights around the world. That aside you seem a Kiwi that feels that the world is against him, Joking aside All Blacks at Twickenham in 3 weeks?????

[djk59]

TC

You are an embarrasment to all heli pilots. What an insult to heicopterinterested about the age/posts comment. Your insults beliong in the gutter. You are thoughtless, rude and arrogant and I am ashamed such insults come from another pilot about an incident where the pilot in question is in a coma.

To throw around you "expertise" and insults from the otherside of the world (where I am too it should be noted) on an accident you know little about is an absolute insult to the pilot and his family and to the operator concerned. I note you have thousands of posts, so obviously you have a hell of a lot to say about everything, what I call an armchair warrior. I have watched this site for years now with disgust at the insults, kicking one when they are down, and the so called expertise shown on matters to which they use hearsay and in most instances no evidence whatsoever. Gossip moungering I once heard a English pilot tell me. I only joined so that I can share with the Kiwi pilots and all those others that have been touched by this accident that there are some of us that do care about other pilots.

How do you know the investigation wont throw up a mechanical failure of some sort?. Yes it may be Pilot error but your complete disregard to the pilot in question and his family beggars belief. Take one minute here and think, what if I had an accident and all these insults where thrown at me and my family while I am lying in a coma in hospital.

And dont ever say it cannot happen to you. I too have flown for 34 years in the mountains, luckily without accident. I have been bound by the most strindgent rules in Europe and the operators I fly for, but I can tell you one thing, I have had plenty of close calls in that 34 years. It could me next or you. So take a long hard look at the rhetoric you write here and think about what it would be like if you had an accident and then all and sundry thrash your name and your repuation without a blink of any eye and how your family would take that. If you dont see that then I am at a loss to how you can sleep at night. This is an accident. They will always happen in this industry, to both new and experienced pilots a like. Yes we can try and minimise them.

If a country aviation authority allows certain things to happen then those are the rules.

Eg In Germany and France you can speed along a motorway. In other countries tha same thing is illegal. That doesnt make the drivers in Germany or France bad drivers if they have an accident now does it?

Double Bogey, Thanks for your words. Nice to hear some balanced persective and another aviator thats genuinely worried about the injured pilot. I know New Zeeland have some excellent pilots as do most countires around the world, including the UK. I know there are quite a number of pilots from New Zeeland that have 20,000 to 30,000 hours on those mountains down there without accident. I was amazed when I went down there. The operators I saw down there totaly professional and I felt vey safe on the scenic flights I did when visiting down there.

Have you even been down there to see for yourself TC, problay not?

As is said before I make no judgment what so ever on the accident or the pilot invloved or the company invloved because I do not know the facts, I do not know if there was a mechanical failure or not and I am not there to see with my own eyes.

Instead my thoughts are with the pilot and his family and I wish the pilot a speedy recovery. Thats what this forum should be about, supporting our fellow pilots.

[helicopterinterested]

Thomas, Your question >>> Am I a pilot??? Is this where we have competition about hours and numbers to decide who should say whether someone is correct in their opinion.
Yes I am, but not as experienced as you, You win.

You are right that someone should know what they are up against or who before commenting, But seeing old Crab there has a problem NZ and feels Europe is so much better than us, And felt that The Helicopter Line is taking excessive risks in their commercial activities. At this point I am in a position I dont care for his seniority or skills because I stand here backed I sure by a bulk of the long time operators and drivers from not just NZ but Canada and the US in saying his comments are Utter BS.

English I wish was not my first language because I really don't like the English way of seeing life or the idea that NZ is an English country so I try my hardest to butcher it where I can with bad spelling and grammar mistakes to aggravate any English people stuck up enough to call me on my language use skills.

I also have no fear in having a go at people that start out like Crab and some of your comments with attacks on NZ aviation and the pilot in this crash as if you are both so much better than them because you log book says xxxxxx hours.

THL made in excess of 24000 mountain landings last year and maybe more, They have had 27 years of very high safety standards and I don't think this one mishap is a reason to attack their skills or safety standards as operators.

You two are like the Waldorf and Statler muppets pointing at a black wall and trying to sound clever in telling people its black.
Of course the pilot has made a mistake. Get a badge for you chests so I know next time who the experts are.

I work globally in the helicopter industry and I am on first name basis with many people of plenty of experience and owner ship of companies in the top 5 in the world for helicopter numbers through out Latin America, Canada, NZ Australia. These people would not support your comments here and if I am scared of any actions I make in the industry it is for sure the judgement from these people and not you two arrogant typical UK people.

If I have a question for you seeing you have some for me, Do you look at your self in the mirror with your flight suit and gloves while you write your 2500 odd posts.
Did you really fly all these hours and gain all that experience to turn out like your sound on here?

Get real the both of you, Who ever is judging here just needs to calm down and be more constructive and supportive of a difficult time for not only the family and the pilot but the company and the local helicopter industry its self. There is plenty of time later to make constructive action in regard to the mistakes that might have lead to this situation.

I dont have any control over the decisions in this operation what so ever nor am I in a position where I would want to. I am primarily interested in helicopter use in a safe and profitable way seeing I work in the industry and its public profile view affects my life and the life of my colleagues.

And seeing I dont find your blog to be of value, dont worry I wont affect your staging ground for high level criticism of your industry pairs, This is my last effort to add value to this devalued chat.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

DJK - well said but I fear your words are lost on the likes of TC. He thinks he knows better than anyone about anything. Aviation History is littered with events where bad things happen to good people.

I too am dismayed at the critism levelled at the pilot when no facts have yet being released about the accident. It's supposed to be a rumour network. Trashing a fellow pilots reputation is not rumour. It's just ignorance and rudeness.

TC writes in his last post

"be careful about throwing insults around about people you know nothing about"

TC is so dim he cannot see the sad irony of his own words!!!

TC - the pilot is apparently in hospital in a coma. Have you no human qualities that would allow you to apologise for the crass posts you have made while this man and his family suffers!!!

DB

[KiwiNedNZ]

Here are a couple of shots of THL when I did a shoot with them few months ago.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/ZQN0468_zps6b71fb34.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/ZQN0186_zps2d2f1f52.jpg

[nzaligator]

I had to sign in to have a say.
I know a lot about this accident and worked for THL initially in 1986 as a pilot and have been involved ever since in some way. I have landed on this glacier many times and am well qualified to comment.
Firstly , Kiwi Ned should know better than to call this thread by such a stupid name. This accident is actually a helicopter contacting an object on the ground whilst attempting to land . The fact the object is a helicopter is immaterial. The blades were not turning !
He is , what's called in NZ, a "skidbiter ", and should know better than to post such an attention grabbing headline . He should stick to magazines.
Almost daily, somewhere in the world ,someone cocks up a landing .
No body has been killed , it is a bad crash but does not deserve the vilification and rubbish being posted.
The owner of the helicopter involved is incorrect about THL's record.
THL has actually had 3 multi-fatal crashes in the last 27 years .
1989 Jetranger (ZH HKN ) in the Shotover hit a cable , 3 dead.
199- Squirrel at Franz 7 (or 6 ) dead , can't remember.
199_ Jetranger into the sea , 1 dead ( Paul Holmes crash)
There have also been quite a number of other crashes .
I can think of another Jetranger in Queenstown , a Jetranger and a Squirrel at mount Cook.
That'll do for now , as I guess, I will be shot down in flames as soon as I post.

[EBCAU]

Hell Ned, now you've really gone and done it! There's no one at the controls of those helicopters! Oh Dear. Oh Dear. The English will be having conniption fits now.

[EMS R22]

Dont worry about no one at the controls. They dont fly very well by themselves.....


(not sure "that girls" undies were that lucky )

That is gold Hughsey.

[helicopterinterested]

NZaligator know about the crashes. Not all but most. I still think they have a lot of flight hours per accident history.

I was saying safe history not perfect.

Fair comments and far more ability to comment than me.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Nzaligator - Like it or not the one landing helo HIT the other one - that's known as two objects colliding. The OBJECT you refer to was actually another helicopter so therefore two helos collide is an accurate statement. Dont like it - tough luck.

Calling people names like me a skidbiter makes you oh so professional doesn't it. At least people know who I am instead of some bigmouth behind a keyboard. And I am more than happy to stick to my magazines, wouldnt want to be put in the same class as an obnoxious prick like you.

Tell Pete and Grant I said hi. They have class and I feel sorry for them for having to go through all this drama - you - couldnt care less about :D

[rottenjohn]

You are exactly right about Ned, he is always first on the bandwagon when someone has a whoopsy

[KiwiNedNZ]

Oh and NZaligator - Couple of points I missed. The title of the post actually came from TV when it was first reported. Got an issue with it then call them.

Secondly - Just been having a good chat with Pete filling him on your diatribe here and he has no issue with what I have posted here so as far as YOUR opinion you can roll it up into a nice cylinder shape with a point on the end and then shove it up your ass :ok:

And rottenjohn you are just a ******** and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Morons like you two just reminded me why this place has become somewhere that professional pilots avoid.

You are welcome to it. Bye bye dickheads.