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Saint-Ex
25th Oct 2013, 20:17
The $4B Brazilian order for F18s appears in jeopardy after president`s cell `phone allegedly tapped. Another brilliant example of Obama`s attitude to international relations.

SMOC
25th Oct 2013, 20:21
You're delusional if you think the US hasn't been doing this ever since the technology to spy was invented.

racedo
25th Oct 2013, 20:47
That maybe so but having it public forces people hands to do something......................

DaveReidUK
25th Oct 2013, 20:51
The $4B Brazilian order for F18s appears in jeopardyI would expect that all the important payments have already been made, and that they aren't refundable.

olasek
25th Oct 2013, 21:35
You're delusional if you think the US hasn't been doing this ever since the technology to spy was invented. Also it would be delusional to think that only US does it, every governmnet with technical means does it, both on friends and foes alike. Whether Brazil would ultimately get F-18 it is hard to say - with the constant protests from within the country that money is being spent foolishly on grandiose projects that don't benefit people they may completely forgo any such purchase.

I would expect that all the important payments have already been made, No, because no winner was formally selected yet, no contract was signed.

racedo
25th Oct 2013, 21:53
I would expect that all the important payments have already been made, and that they aren't refundable.

True but Brazil can impose a cost in other ways...............only letting Chinese and Russian Oil firms into its oil fields springs to mind.

DaveReidUK
25th Oct 2013, 22:06
No, because no winner was formally selected yet, no contract was signed. Ah, then of course there wouldn't have been any payments made yet. :ugh:

olasek
25th Oct 2013, 22:17
Yes, from Boeing to Brazil typical contract-participation payments were most likely made :ugh:

Andu
25th Oct 2013, 22:27
The Germans are being more than a bit precious with their protestations over the tapping, which EVERY spy agency that CAN does to the absolute fullest of its ability - and the Germans and everyone else know it. My guess is that they're attempting to squeeze a bit more access to US electronic monitoring of other people out of a US Administration they see to be weak and therefore liable to fold to such demands.

500N
25th Oct 2013, 22:32
I would have thought Brazil would be better off having the US Close than
an enemy and that includes US made aircraft / weapons.

BenThere
25th Oct 2013, 22:38
Brazil should buy the weapon systems that best meet its operational needs, all things considered, including its anger at being spied upon.

500N
25th Oct 2013, 22:41
BenThere

Agree. and they would get far more benefits from having the US onside than off side, be it weapons, cost, trade, you name it.

Doesn't meea they can't take the US to task on things.

West Coast
25th Oct 2013, 23:14
Should the US be angry at the French? At exercises they act like a big vacuum cleaner sucking up every signal from its allies. Sure we likely do it as well.

BenThere
25th Oct 2013, 23:45
If I were the buyer I'd consider that to date, the record of US weapon and defense systems in general, when arrayed against the products of competitors, is sterling.

Long term support, enhancing modifications, and logistics are key as well. If you're going to buy a $50 million airplane, you have to look at that.

obgraham
26th Oct 2013, 00:00
Brazil haven't any other cards to play right now. They're playing the "offended victim" so natch they'll holler about airplane orders, etc.

However, since they have their own airplanes to sell, I expect that after the requisite noises and protestations, things will advance as planned.

500N
26th Oct 2013, 00:25
"However, since they have their own airplanes to sell,"

see, at the end of the day ............. :O

pigboat
26th Oct 2013, 01:49
"However, since they have their own airplanes to sell,"

Well, Canadair has the C-Series coming on line in a year or so, so I hope they remain in a snit. :E

racedo
26th Oct 2013, 19:22
Can't blame them for adding to their negotiating position.............

Buster Hyman
26th Oct 2013, 20:43
DW news was saying how Britain Australia & New Zealand (to name a few) were countries that the USA didn't spy on....riiiiight! ;)

500N
26th Oct 2013, 20:52
Buster

"DW news was saying how Britain Australia & New Zealand (to name a few) were countries that the USA didn't spy on....riiiiight! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif"

Of course they do. Especially NZ which is anti Nuclear and to an extent anti US.

BUT, one of the major listening stations is located in Australia and jointly staffed (as in Pine Gap).

Australia is at the top of the tree when it comes to getting access to US military technology / Intelligence so I doubt that the US has that much to worry about considering what they give us access to. You don't give an Aussie General who is running the Ops war for the US access to the highest level of US Int if you have something to hide.

Flap 5
27th Oct 2013, 04:11
For sure the USA would have always done this and others may have done it as well but, for all of the justification that they are receiving for what has happened, it doesn't avoid the extreme embarrassment this has caused. It is also all very well blaming Snowden and Wikileaks but if you do this kind of thing there is always the risk it may come out sometime.

Now that it is out these monitoring actions have caused damage to relations with countries that are, after all, supposed to be on the same side.

If you are prepared to take the risk you must be prepared to take the consequences if it becomes public knowledge. Frankly excuses don't wash.

airship
27th Oct 2013, 13:35
Why buy US-made F18s (whose capabilities could be limited or at least diminished very rapidly via the Internet, software "upgrades" and/or maintenance "back-doors")...

When Brazil could order the French Rafale instead (everything "guaranteed" to work) even if Brazil attacked France tomorrow...?! :ok:

PS. The French don't listen in to Brazil's politicians mobile phones. That's how they know the F18 proposition will go nowhere... :D

West Coast
27th Oct 2013, 14:14
Yet despite your sage advice the Brazilians decide not to buy the Rafale. The nerve of them.


Short of lobbing instant sunshine, the Brazilians troops would be enjoying the tree lined streets of Paris after a protracted battle with immigration agents at CDG.

broadreach
28th Oct 2013, 23:55
From (failing) memory: A few days before this thread began, the Brazilian press carried an article saying Russia had offered Sukhois on lease when the Mirages lease on life expires. I don't recall the Sukhoi model but the Mirage is said to be at the end of its shelf life in 2014/15.

More recently the media have carried stories saying the Brazilian air force is horrified at the thought of more Russian aircraft because of the lackadaisical after sales service, poor reliability etc etc. Venezuela's fleet (of 3 dozen?) Sukhois is said to be down to six serviceable aircraft and a number of the Mils have crashed due to maintenance/spares problems, with the death of over forty crew and passengers.

Now, I don't doubt for a minute that the local press is being aided in its research by Boeing, Dassault and Saab. Nor that the leaks re conversations with the Russians have much to do with reshaping Brazil's negotiating position after the Snowden leaks. What little I've gleaned from the press and friends, though, is that the air force prefer the F-18. And it might be good to remember that not too many years ago Brazil was a right-wing military dictatorship. The ideological slant of the political party in power can change every five years; it doesn't happen like that in the military.

BenThere
29th Oct 2013, 00:19
I have the same sense, broadreach.

Qualitatively, proven US equipment such as the F-18, long term support, (unless you make the Iranian mistake, even though they still are able to fly their 40 year old F-14's with Phoenix missiles), and tested and proven operational excellence, which while in part is intangible, are the best choice facing a nation such as Brazil, if you ask me.

Anything else is taking a big chance, and in some countries that could mean your head - literally.

Alloa Akbar
29th Oct 2013, 09:00
Given that the Brazilian FX-2 Contract was supposed to have been awarded to the Rafale in 2010 (FX-2 tender had been started in 2005 and postponed a couple of times at that point), I wouldn't be losing too much sleep if I was Boeing.. I should imagine when they were being touted as the winner I imagine Boeing Sales guys responded with "Yeah, whatever":rolleyes:

As for why they would buy F-18, they are all about offset and developing in country capability, Boeing and SAAB were quite happy to let them have technology transfer on F-18 and Grippen respectively, whereas Typhoon and Rafale would allow production and certain transfer of technology but not the crown jewels.. same reason F-35 was a non starter.

The "Spend money on grandiose programs" thing is part of Brazilian culture.. If they have money, they will do flash.

alemaobaiano
29th Oct 2013, 10:33
The $4B Brazilian order for F18s

There never was a Brazilian order for F18s, although it was thought to be one of the leading contenders along with the Gripen. The time limit for the FX-2 selection process has now expired without a winner so it's possible that a new program will be created (FX-3?) which will once again be open to all, or possibly Brazil will buy someone's cast-offs.

The most likely answer is that absolutely nothing will happen because next year is election year and nobody wants to be associated with a multi-billion dollar contract that a significant proportion of the population regard as pointless. When people are suffering after months of drought in parts of the country, and there have been violent protests over the costs of mounting the World Cup, spending $4 billion on shiny supersonic jets isn't going to win a lot of votes.

By the time any decision is taken the spying scandal will be ancient history and will, IMHO, have zero impact. The size of the bribe on offer is another story...:sad:

TTFN

Cacophonix
29th Oct 2013, 10:36
alemaobaiano's synopsis seems totally apposite... :ok:

Caco

Evanelpus
29th Oct 2013, 16:32
Ah, then of course there wouldn't have been any payments made yet.

But plenty of brown envelopes distributed!:eek:

airship
30th Oct 2013, 16:04
Presumably the NSA have hitherto intercepted all important communications on the subject. I'm unsure if it's usual NSA policy, but I imagine that all the "US companies" involved would have been advised by "someone" concerning "how best to proceed"...?! Especially considering how even Snowden was just "1 out of several 100,000s" of US citizens with important access to secret documents, working for a sub-contractor, let alone directly for the US government...?!

But of course, Brazil will confirm the F-18 order, unless say, French-intelligence have gathered proof in the interim of "back-handers" via the "SWIFT" network (to which the NSA has been granted full-access but for "anti-terrorist" activities only) by the EU. But ingratiously used for all other purposes including identifying US citizens and their banking assets held outside of the USA over the years...?! No, of course not, there are no visible connections between the NSA (and their 100,000+ agents in private companies), the US Inland Revenue etc. :ugh:

USA can keep treating her true allies like shite for all I could care. Until the cows come home. Otherwise, someone should consider re-starting a production line for UK-made Spitfires ca. 1945 in Brazil (considering all threats to that country). Also, these reproductions might be sold "at great profit" to private customers in western Europe and beyond... :ok:

Lonewolf_50
30th Oct 2013, 20:36
Why did you post this same thing in two different threads?

What has this to do with Brazil buying fighters?

We should be told! :eek:

500N
30th Oct 2013, 20:42
Airship

"USA can keep treating her true allies like shite for all I could care. Until the cows come home."

That's funny. Oz doesn't get treated like Shyte. Access to high levels of
military technology is one benefit.

I still think, regardless of possible pit falls you are better working very closely
with the US than against it or trying to play it off.

broadreach
30th Oct 2013, 22:25
Airship, thanks, nothing like an informed and pragmatic view.